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The Protagonist

(74 posts)
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:32 PM Oct 2022

U.S. liberal Democrats urge Biden to seek negotiated Ukraine settlement

Source: Reuters

WASHINGTON, Oct 24 (Reuters) - Thirty liberal U.S. congressional Democrats urged President Joe Biden on Monday to shift his strategy for the Russia-Ukraine war by pursuing a negotiated settlement along with his current provision of military and economic support to Kyiv.

"Given the destruction created by this war for Ukraine and the world, as well as the risk of catastrophic escalation, we also believe it is in the interests of Ukraine, the United States, and the world to avoid a prolonged conflict," the 30 Democratic members of the House of Representatives said in a letter to Biden. "For this reason, we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire," the Democrats' letter said.

Some Republicans have warned there could be tighter control of funding for Ukraine if their party wins control of Congress.

The letter was led by Representative Pramila Jayapal, who chairs the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/us-liberal-democrats-urge-biden-seek-negotiated-ukraine-settlement-2022-10-24/



Color me gobsmacked. The squad is all in on negotiations and possible concessions to Putin.
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U.S. liberal Democrats urge Biden to seek negotiated Ukraine settlement (Original Post) The Protagonist Oct 2022 OP
This is very disappointing. MLAA Oct 2022 #1
Extremely disappointing Rebl2 Oct 2022 #10
Just say no.. nt mitch96 Oct 2022 #14
Apples and oranges... DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #35
I agree. This war will not end with the prostration of Russia to Ukraine Jack the Greater Oct 2022 #38
amen... DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #50
Should Russian negotiate us giving them some of our country? onecaliberal Oct 2022 #2
This sucks. When today's rightwing and the left faction of our party sound the same, texasfiddler Oct 2022 #3
The horseshoe is real. swag Oct 2022 #7
Peace in our time lapfog_1 Oct 2022 #4
Love the cool, old mics! C Moon Oct 2022 #60
Negotiating this thing will lead to negotiating deals for the whole The_Casual_Observer Oct 2022 #5
Wow this is some SERIOUSLY nice timing on the part of the progressives. Isn't one of kelly1mm Oct 2022 #6
So if we liberal and progressives are analogues, who are the rest of the Democrats? Magoo48 Oct 2022 #73
I don't believe what I read. Color me skeptical, or at least questioning. erronis Oct 2022 #8
It's real. The letter is on the internet. nt Phoenix61 Oct 2022 #25
LOL! C Moon Oct 2022 #61
Here it is Phoenix61 Oct 2022 #69
Here's the link to the Letter & Sigs.. Cha Oct 2022 #89
March on Moscow CloudWatcher Oct 2022 #9
Or not..... brooklynite Oct 2022 #11
WTF? GB_RN Oct 2022 #12
OR maybe the Reuters OP is propagandized ... live love laugh Oct 2022 #44
Propagandized by...reporting what the House members said? brooklynite Oct 2022 #85
"Time to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory!" Grokenstein Oct 2022 #13
No negotiations with genocidal fascists Fiendish Thingy Oct 2022 #15
This is such an un-liberal Democratic thing to suggest? NullTuples Oct 2022 #16
Negotiating with Putin is useless. No one should believe a word he says. Lonestarblue Oct 2022 #17
Can someone elaborate on why TODAY was a good time to make this announcement? brooklynite Oct 2022 #18
If this is true those so called Liberals need to understand that negotiating with hitler is never a yaesu Oct 2022 #19
Full list of Democrats endorsing this new strategy... brooklynite Oct 2022 #20
I'm not surprised to see Cori Bush there .... LenaBaby61 Oct 2022 #23
You're calling a woman of color, a US Congresswoman no less, a dummy? The Protagonist Oct 2022 #28
Elaborate bronxiteforever Oct 2022 #75
Sure am .... LenaBaby61 Oct 2022 #86
Hey! As a Bona Fide ....... BigOleDummy Oct 2022 #64
I have been a fan of a large number of these folks ColinC Oct 2022 #30
What is wrong with calling for negotiations? DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #36
What points are you negotiating? brooklynite Oct 2022 #39
It is for Ukraine to negotiate, yes? DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #49
They Are in the Process of Battlefield Negotiations as We Speak. -NT- ruet Oct 2022 #78
They are giving us a way out of this mess! McKim Oct 2022 #79
What would the end state of such negotiations look like? XorXor Oct 2022 #82
WTAF? speak easy Oct 2022 #21
"Peace is better than war, because life is better than death" DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #37
Peace can be achieved by Kablooie Oct 2022 #88
Disagree Bristlecone Oct 2022 #22
I think you all are making too much of this Nictuku Oct 2022 #24
I don't see why they sent the letter. Incredibly poor timing. Phoenix61 Oct 2022 #26
And the timing? speak easy Oct 2022 #27
I agree with you! DemocraticPatriot Oct 2022 #33
What terms exactly should the Ukrainians negotiate for? Hieronymus Phact Oct 2022 #71
Democracy here is at stake, we don't need members of our own party rocking the boat yaesu Oct 2022 #34
They seek a ceasefire, which would... LudwigPastorius Oct 2022 #65
I don't think you've said anything that needs criticism XorXor Oct 2022 #84
I need names to put on my shit list. ColinC Oct 2022 #29
That's fucked up! Beakybird Oct 2022 #31
"realistic framework for a ceasefire" - - - WTAF???? Talitha Oct 2022 #32
neville Chamberlain nvme Oct 2022 #40
This is a bad call by the progressive caucus al bupp Oct 2022 #41
I am disappointed in those members. NCjack Oct 2022 #43
Appeasement didn't work with Hitler either IronLionZion Oct 2022 #42
JUST THE OPPOSITE ... jgo Oct 2022 #45
Agree! Double-down time. Grins Oct 2022 #58
Heather Cox Richardson's daily letter itouches on this soldierant Oct 2022 #46
She's the best! TexasBushwhacker Oct 2022 #81
It's a good start and way past time. David__77 Oct 2022 #47
TRAVESTY!!! dai13sy Oct 2022 #48
maybe they think NJCher Oct 2022 #51
Ask them if they'd try negotiating with TFG Warpy Oct 2022 #52
Agreed padah513 Oct 2022 #54
Peace Talks Roy Rolling Oct 2022 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author dalton99a Oct 2022 #55
I don't get it. Everything they suggest in the letter has been our policy since this all began. PSPS Oct 2022 #56
How do you do that??? Grins Oct 2022 #57
You know what? blue-wave Oct 2022 #59
I support a negotiated settlment if it includes every Russian involved in war crimes being arrested cstanleytech Oct 2022 #62
If it were your friends and neighbors that were dying your perspective might be different pecosbob Oct 2022 #63
Such BS!! so these Dems think the US oughtta roll over & bow to putin onetexan Oct 2022 #66
That's not up for us to decide Shermanator Oct 2022 #67
Putin's idea of negotiation: "Give me what I want or I'll use nuclear weapons" dalton99a Oct 2022 #68
Read some damn history guys. Have you forgotten about World War II? ashredux Oct 2022 #70
KGB Putin will not accede to any Ukranian demands!!! wolfie001 Oct 2022 #72
Very disappointing. nt Xipe Totec Oct 2022 #74
It's not progressive at all to leave out Zelenskyy's terms -- 1. ALL of Crimea back; 2. Every last ancianita Oct 2022 #76
Not no, but HELL NO! BComplex Oct 2022 #77
That's a load of crap! Bayard Oct 2022 #80
Update - They changed their minds SomewhereInTheMiddle Oct 2022 #83
Liberal Democrats withdraw letter to Biden that urged him to rethink Ukraine strategy William769 Oct 2022 #87
Progressive Caucus - not the Liberals JustAnotherGen Oct 2022 #90
 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
35. Apples and oranges...
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:43 PM
Oct 2022

When Chamberlain negotiated with Hitler, Hitler was the one in the position of strength, and the war had not begun yet. Now we are talking about negotiations to END a war that is already raging-- NOT negotiations to try to avoid a war.

In this Ukraine war scenario now, it is 1945, and 'Hitler' is on the run-- but this time he does possess the ability to bring the whole world to die with him, in a fiery death in his bunker... by "pressing all the buttons"...


It is for Ukraine to decide what terms they would accept in ending this war, of course-- but I think the talking should seriously begin now. Russia is in a position of weakness, yes. If through negotiations, the war can be ended, then negotiations should certainly be pursued-- and now more seriously than they have been, since Russia is on the run and failing.




Jack the Greater

(616 posts)
38. I agree. This war will not end with the prostration of Russia to Ukraine
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:56 PM
Oct 2022

...and a negotiated end to hostilities can be a win for Ukraine. Russia is not, nor will it be, like Germany and Japan, nations that capitulated after being brought to complete ruin. Ukraine is not in a position to inflict that kind of punishment on Russia. All it can do is not give in to Russian aggression.

People here are commenting as if a negotiated settlement entails Ukraine giving up territory. That would be true only if Ukraine agrees to such a proposal. Is anyone suggesting that? I did not read that is the proposal put forth by the so-called liberal Democrats.

 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
50. amen...
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:35 PM
Oct 2022

and some of them talk like 'Reagan Democrats' or 'Reagan Republicans' or something else...


I have always supported Ukraine 100% in this conflict, and am very happy with their success in their resistance...


For Ukraine to open negotiations now, when they are winning the war, is completely different from seeking negotiations in the first week of the conflict, or seeking negotiations before the invasion had begun.

At any rate, we should not fear talking about possibilities of ending a war-- or be so overcome by blood-lust that we refuse to negotiate an end to the war, or ignore certain realities that did not exist in 1939...

All the liberal Democrats asked for, was that there would be "talks". 'negotiations' does not mean a 'ceasefire', unless a ceasefire is negotiated.

"Peace is better than war, because life is better than death."
~ Gov. Mario Cuomo, 1984 Democratic convention


The United States should encourage a negotiated end to this war, while continuing to support Ukraine.



 

onecaliberal

(36,594 posts)
2. Should Russian negotiate us giving them some of our country?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:38 PM
Oct 2022

What the fuck is wrong with people. It’s not your fucking land to give away.

texasfiddler

(2,199 posts)
3. This sucks. When today's rightwing and the left faction of our party sound the same,
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:39 PM
Oct 2022

I know it is wrong. Why don't the left faction of our party ask what Ukraine wants?

 

The_Casual_Observer

(27,742 posts)
5. Negotiating this thing will lead to negotiating deals for the whole
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:40 PM
Oct 2022

Of eastern Europe at some time in the future. The bastard needs to be stopped now.

 

kelly1mm

(5,756 posts)
6. Wow this is some SERIOUSLY nice timing on the part of the progressives. Isn't one of
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:45 PM
Oct 2022

the Democrats talking points now that supporting the R's in the midterms would jeopardize support for Ukraine?

erronis

(22,747 posts)
8. I don't believe what I read. Color me skeptical, or at least questioning.
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:49 PM
Oct 2022

One thing for the Green Party - Jill Stein being under the thrall of Putin/libertarians. Quite another for a large bloc of US progressives to have drunk the tea.

Cha

(317,108 posts)
89. Here's the link to the Letter & Sigs..
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 10:23 PM
Oct 2022
https://progressives.house.gov/_cache/files/5/5/5523c5cc-4028-4c46-8ee1-b56c7101c764/B7B3674EFB12D933EA4A2B97C7405DD4.10-24-22-cpc-letter-for-diplomacy-on-russia-ukraine-conflict.pdf

This is why Most are so Disgusted including myself.

They've withdrawn the Letter now "Blaming it on the Staff" stating it was a "..Distraction at this time.." Huh?

CloudWatcher

(2,127 posts)
9. March on Moscow
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 07:52 PM
Oct 2022

The "negotiations" should consist of "leave all of Ukraine now and we might not march on Moscow".

Anything short of that is bullsh*t.

GB_RN

(3,514 posts)
12. WTF?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:08 PM
Oct 2022

This is a crock of shit. Sounds like they’ve bought into Russian propaganda. I HOPE that’s not the case and someone’s lying.

Fiendish Thingy

(22,153 posts)
15. No negotiations with genocidal fascists
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:22 PM
Oct 2022

I’m to the left of most in the CPC, and I don’t understand the motivation or reasoning behind this.

The only negotiating should on the Russians withdrawing from all Ukrainian territory, and returning all captured Ukrainians home.

Until then, the US should provide Ukraine with all means to kill or expel every Russian on their land.

NullTuples

(6,017 posts)
16. This is such an un-liberal Democratic thing to suggest?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:26 PM
Oct 2022

Any negotiated settlement is a partial win for Putin who is 100% the agressor.
Ukraine has not asked for it.
The people of Ukraine have not asked for it.
Ukraine nationals have not asked for it.
They are fighting to push Russia back and make them leave.
This stance, that the US should help negotiate a settlement, is being said and pushed without their consent.

Lonestarblue

(13,250 posts)
17. Negotiating with Putin is useless. No one should believe a word he says.
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:31 PM
Oct 2022

He claimed he had no intention of attacking Ukraine. He lied. And what right does the US have to negotiate away Ukrainian,lands? None. These Democrats may just want to see an end, but my suspicion is that we will only see an end when NATO finally uses its air power to aid Ukraine and shoves Putin back into his own country with his tail between his legs.

yaesu

(9,037 posts)
19. If this is true those so called Liberals need to understand that negotiating with hitler is never a
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:32 PM
Oct 2022

good idea & stirring the pot this close to the election is fucking stupid, tRumpster fucking stupid & that is pretty fucking stupid.

 

brooklynite

(96,882 posts)
20. Full list of Democrats endorsing this new strategy...
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:34 PM
Oct 2022
Cori Bush
Earl Blumenauer
Pramila Jayapal
Jesús G. García
Raúl M. Grijalva
Sara Jacobs
Ro Khanna
Barbara Lee
Ilhan Omar
Ayanna Pressley
Sheila Jackson Lee
Mark Pocan
Nydia M. Velázquez
Gwen S. Moore
Yvette D. Clarke
Henry Johnson
Rashida Tlaib
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Mondaire Jones
Peter A. DeFazio
Jamaal Bowman
Marie Newman
Alma S. Adams
Jamie Raskin
Chellie Pingree
Bonnie Watson Coleman
Mark Takano
André Carson
Donald M. Payne, Jr
Mark DeSaulnier


My analysis is that all of these folks are in absolutely safe districts and don't have to worry about the impact of such a policy announcement on the November election.

LenaBaby61

(6,991 posts)
23. I'm not surprised to see Cori Bush there ....
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:47 PM
Oct 2022

She still speaks on defining the police when I've seen her, meanwhile she has her OWN private security detail that she hired to protect herself. Bright woman on other issues, but a DUMMY on this no-win issue, for Dems, especially when the first thing a GQP'er said was "Oh, but she hires her own police security detail?" WHY doesn't she say "Hey if the GOP want to de-fund the FBI ......"

LenaBaby61

(6,991 posts)
86. Sure am ....
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 03:12 PM
Oct 2022

I'm half-black if that matters, but the thing is the GQP US Taliban KKK party" has called her worse than that, and yes she is a dummy on that subject. Then she goes out and gets her OWN private police security detail. Not that it matters to you maybe, but other black friends said wait, she got her own police detail and she wants to de-fund the police? Yep, I think she's a dummy on that issue which the GQP US Taliban Party is using to great effect in showing how "lawless" Dems are and how they hate police, when the GQP was against the Capitol Hill police who were defending the Capitol on Jan. 6th and in reality why didn't she THINK and say "Well, the GOP wants to defund the FBI," and they DO. You never hear talk about that on the corporate media do you? NOPE. But when a black person says something that the so-called liberal media--which isn't liberal at all for the most part--love running with it, they run like hell, and seize on that. But nope, the GQP US taliban party can yell "Defund the FBI until the cows come home" and not defend the Capitol Hill police who was protecting their asses from tRump's racist mob who he sent down there, and it's crickets from the so-called "liberal" media, which is mostly corporate, right-winged and greedy for ad dollars like they got when tReasonous tRump stole his way into the presidency.

Republicans Ramp Up Their “Defund the FBI” Stunt.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/republicans-fbi-mar-a-lago/

And this a moral, serial adulteress, three-toed sloth who says continually that we need to be a "WHITE christian nation" continues to yell defund the FBI and it's crickets on that. Of course the so-called liberal media isn't going after her, on defunding the FBI are they? NOPE, but waiting for Bush to open her mouth about defund the police




Personally, I loved the way Val Demmings who IS/WAS law enforcement for almost 30 years told GYM "I knew as team manager that those wrestlers were being sexually assaulted by the team doctor but didn't give a damn" Jordan off.



And for as much as I do not care for the police @ 61 and I have never had so much as a parking ticket in my life and obey all laws, and have 'seen some things' in my own family happen at the hands of law enforcement who were in the wrong, and although we still have black people being murdered post George Floyd, who are being shot, killed, arrested for breathing while black and flat out harassed by police--but to get rid of police in total and descend into anarchy? Even in liberal San Fran, was re-called because he wanted to de-fund the police, and because he wouldn't prosecute criminals. Read up on his Family background.

San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin re-called.
He then said he never said he was for defunding the police but he was, because friends living in San Fran used to tell me about this "wack job" Chesea Boudin on the regular, and they're as liberal as they come.

REFUND not DEFUND, but even that'll be difficult until police aren't shielded/protected and that's not likely to happen anytime soon, thanks to the GQP " We love the police, unless they're against tRump our cult leader" Party.

Somebody needs to shine a light on Qualified Immunity, but hey I guess it's easy to yell "Defund the police" though.

Specifically, qualified immunity protects a government official from lawsuits alleging that the official violated a plaintiff's rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right. And mind you, we just lost miranda rights to boot thanks to the turtle hand-picked, reich-winged, Federalist high court.

Or on Miranda which is GONE now thanks to the turtle's Federalist reich-winged Society high court, whose hated more than a used car salesman.


U.S. Supreme Court's 'Miranda' decision further guts 150-year-old civil rights law

(Reuters) - A U.S. Supreme Court decision on Thursday illustrated the extent to which the court has transformed a Reconstruction-era law meant to protect the rights of freed slaves and marginalized Americans into a formidable shield for the most powerful, including police, prosecutors and businesses.

The June 23 decision bars lawsuits against police for using evidence obtained without advising people of their rights – the ‘Miranda’ warnings the court mandated nearly 60 years ago that have since become the framework through which most Americans understand their rights against police intrusion.

The 6-3 ruling in Vega v. Tekoh, which was expectedly split along partisan lines, nullified essentially the only direct remedy available in those situations. (Police officers are notorious for evading internal discipline and legal consequence, even for conduct that constitutes a crime, like assaulting someone to compel a false confession.)

https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-supreme-courts-miranda-decision-further-guts-150-year-old-civil-rights-law-2022-06-27/

BigOleDummy

(2,274 posts)
64. Hey! As a Bona Fide .......
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 01:59 AM
Oct 2022

.... Card carrying , aptly named Dummy I take exception to your labeling her as such. We Dummies have standards after all! Ukraine needs our help and support and not a stab in the back. Real Dummies know this.

ColinC

(11,098 posts)
30. I have been a fan of a large number of these folks
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:14 PM
Oct 2022

All I can say is I am incredibly, fucking disappointed in all of them.

 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
36. What is wrong with calling for negotiations?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:49 PM
Oct 2022

"Negotiations" does not mean a "ceasefire"... unless a ceasefire is negotiated.





 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
49. It is for Ukraine to negotiate, yes?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:20 PM
Oct 2022

Not me... I am only an innocent bystander who prefers peace to war.


"We should never negotiate out of fear... but we should never fear to negotiate."
~ President John F. Kennedy, Inaugural address 1961

McKim

(2,426 posts)
79. They are giving us a way out of this mess!
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 10:20 AM
Oct 2022

These congresspersons are creating a space where maybe we can get out of this mess. We and Europe are growing tired of it and it is hurting the world economy, pain everywhere. Fight to the death is not always the best way out.

XorXor

(690 posts)
82. What would the end state of such negotiations look like?
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 12:00 PM
Oct 2022

There is a reason why calls for negotiations don't go into any specific ideas, or even mention what Russia is looking for. The reason is because negotiations means that Russia gets the land it annexed, Ukraine is disarmed, Ukraine is forced to stay "neutral". Let's say for some reason Ukrainians agree to that, then in 5 years Russia will launch another invasion to seize the rest. We know this is how Russia works because that is what they did before. They seized Crimea. That wasn't enough, so they built up a Russian separatist movement in eastern Ukraine. Then when that wasn't enough, they launched a full-scale invasion. Give them what they want now, and at that won't be enough either

Now you might be thinking that Ukrainians might be open to the idea of Russia leaving and the Donbas regions become autonomous regions within Ukraine, and Ukraine goes down a path to join NATO for its well warranted security concerns... But even if Ukrainians go for something like that, the Russians absolutely will not. Ask anyone pushing for a so-called negotiated peace about any real negotiated peace options, and they reject it outright unless Russia gets everything it wants.

Negotiated peace in this context just means Ukrainian capitulation

speak easy

(12,595 posts)
21. WTAF?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:36 PM
Oct 2022

"it is in the interests of Ukraine, the United States, and the world to avoid a prolonged conflict"
:puking my guts out:

 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
37. "Peace is better than war, because life is better than death"
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:50 PM
Oct 2022

~ Gov. Mario Cuomo, 1984 Democratic convention


Kablooie

(19,053 posts)
88. Peace can be achieved by
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 07:29 PM
Oct 2022

Cowering to a maniac which encourages and enables him.
Is that preferable?

Nictuku

(4,578 posts)
24. I think you all are making too much of this
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:48 PM
Oct 2022

I am 100% Pro Ukraine, anti-Russia. I think that the annex of Crimea should be removed and /all/ the land taken by Russia should be reclaimed by Ukraine.

That said, I read the letter, and I see this: "For this reason, we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire," the Democrats' letter said.

What bothers me about this statement is this: Uh, we /are/ doing all these things now. Right? Is this not what we are already doing? Military, Economic, and Diplomatic support? So it seems to me a lot of people are bitching about the squad suggesting that we do what we are already doing. ...?

To me, this seems to me to be more media manipulation, to make it seem like the Democrats are having a huge internal fight. I'm trying to do that 'critical thinking' thing here. Looking at what is being said, about what, and how it is reported and seeing if it makes sense or not.

I don't see that. Did I miss something? (I really dislike how some people, including my ex-husband, seems to love to jump all over anything the Progressive wing does. With Glee!, even though he actually likes AOC a lot).

In this current event, I just don't see the big deal, and I don't see a reason for internal fighting because one wing of the party wrote a letter like this.

OK, I've got my protective suit on, ready for incoming criticism!

Phoenix61

(18,713 posts)
26. I don't see why they sent the letter. Incredibly poor timing.
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:54 PM
Oct 2022

The reality is the US has absolutely no control over what Putin does. He doesn’t seem to care if he kills and/or starves every last Russian citizen in his pursuit of whatever it is he’s trying to do.

speak easy

(12,595 posts)
27. And the timing?
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 08:56 PM
Oct 2022

Is it too much to say a lot about the timing? The media would have not much to 'manipulate' without the letter in the first place.

 

DemocraticPatriot

(5,410 posts)
33. I agree with you!
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:29 PM
Oct 2022

For the sake of the entire world, it would be better if this conflict can be ended sooner, rather than later....


The letter said "negotiations", NOT "concessions to Putin".... Even so, in negotiations there must be some form of "give and take" to be successful.

In the end, it is not for the US to set terms for Ukraine in ending the conflict-- but I think it would be wise for Ukraine to attempt to negotiate an end to the conflict with Russia. They are now in the position of strength-- but if any slightly "face-saving" means for Putin to withdraw from this war could be devised through negotiations, it would be better for Ukraine and the world, IMHO, than playing this out to the end. Lives in Ukraine will be the first to be spared in a ceasefire.


Hieronymus Phact

(725 posts)
71. What terms exactly should the Ukrainians negotiate for?
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 07:25 AM
Oct 2022

You keep saying that as if there is some objective that can be attained through negotiation.

They only have one primary demand of the Russians: "Leave".
If they aren't leaving than they are using the "negotiations" to rearm, retrain, and dig in. (and extend the conflict)
The only way for putin to save face is to keep something which the Ukrainians aren't going to give away.

Since they've proven they can't be rusted to keep their word,
and there are no words other than "were leaving" that are acceptable, There is literally no point to negotiations at this time.

What terms do you propose the Ukrainians should accept besides "we're leaving now"?
Curious about what you think can be achieved with that?

yaesu

(9,037 posts)
34. Democracy here is at stake, we don't need members of our own party rocking the boat
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:36 PM
Oct 2022

this close to what may be the most important election since the Civil War. They may have good intentions but this is not helping the situation here or in Ukraine. Even Maddow is rolling her eyes about this. Two of the Reps will be on the thom Hartman show this week, they will have some splaining to do.

LudwigPastorius

(14,243 posts)
65. They seek a ceasefire, which would...
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 02:44 AM
Oct 2022

overwhelmingly benefit Putin, because his barbarians are squatting on Ukrainian land.

I’m sure Ukraine would be happy to discuss a pause in hostilities IF Russia fucks off back over the border.

But, until then, they want and need to keep the pressure on the scum that invaded their country.

XorXor

(690 posts)
84. I don't think you've said anything that needs criticism
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 12:49 PM
Oct 2022

I'm betting a lot of the strong reactions are coming from this being lumped in with what certain anti-west segments of the far-left are doing. I'm actually hesitate to call them far-left because they are literally siding with a corrupt non-socialist government in Russia. They are simply anti-west. I saw the term campism/campist used before, and I think maybe those people fit into it. The groups I'm referring to are so-called anti-war and anti-imperialist groups like CodePink and ANSWER. Both have shown that even if they may have got some stuff right in the past, they were on the right side for the wrong reasons. Anyway, the point is that I think people are lumping the people who wrote that letter in with those people. And perhaps there is some overlap with some, but I do get a sense that the messages are significantly different.

I have a sense that it's futile, though. To Russia, negotiations is giving Russia everything it wants and making it so Ukraine cannot defend itself in the future when Russia decides it wants more. I don't think the majority of the people who wrote that latter are in the camp that think that's what should happen (unlike the pro-war "anti-war" pro-russian cadre) I'm not sure why they don't realize this, but I suspect they will eventually figure that out if any attempts for a reasonable negotiated peace are made. Russia is not giving up anything it has annexed. In fact, it will probably demand that Ukraine give Russia territory that Ukraine recently took back. That's not a negotiation.

Beakybird

(3,397 posts)
31. That's fucked up!
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:15 PM
Oct 2022

If Ukraine wins, it can lead to the downfall of Putin and a positive realignment of the world order.

Talitha

(7,701 posts)
32. "realistic framework for a ceasefire" - - - WTAF????
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 09:19 PM
Oct 2022
Do not negotiate with terrorists.
PERIOD

IronLionZion

(50,848 posts)
42. Appeasement didn't work with Hitler either
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 10:10 PM
Oct 2022

Putin is the clear aggressor here. What's there to encourage a ceasefire?

jgo

(1,001 posts)
45. JUST THE OPPOSITE ...
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 10:30 PM
Oct 2022

Now is not the time to negotiate. Now is the time to press the advantage and help Ukraine mop up. This is game theory - don't let your opponent back in the game - proceed to checkmate. It is vital to let everyone (primarily China in addition to Russia) know that geographical boundaries need to be taken seriously. This was an invasion. The endgame should be full retreat/removal of the invading force.

soldierant

(9,290 posts)
46. Heather Cox Richardson's daily letter itouches on this
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 10:48 PM
Oct 2022

She doesn't seem to find it qute as bleak as some of the comments here suggest.

She starts with the DIJ presser earolier today and then segues into this letter and connects them.

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/october-24-2022


dai13sy

(570 posts)
48. TRAVESTY!!!
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:11 PM
Oct 2022

Do the Democrats like losing? I cannot believe who is ready to lick Putin's boots. Thank God my Senators are leaning toward common sense or I will have no one to vote for. And the biggest disappointment is my guy Pete DeFazio signed the letter. I look at the list of Democrats backing this and it leaves me sick and angry and in tears

NJCher

(42,546 posts)
51. maybe they think
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:36 PM
Oct 2022

we're going to lose the House and they want to negotiate something better than what the republicans would influence on the negotiations.

There are a lot of problems with that theory, though, and one of them is that it would be doubtful anything can be negotiated before the republicans would take over. Negotiations take a lot of time, however, in this case winter could be a motivating factor.

Another possibility is that they think Putin has taken enough of a beating that he might welcome a way out. I think this could be a serious possibility. Maybe they think he'll settle for a lot less than what we think.

I'm seriously disappointed in them--seeing Jaimie Raskin's name in particular.

And I completely agree with the posts upthread about not negotiating with an aggressor like Putin. Have we learned nothing from history?

Warpy

(114,413 posts)
52. Ask them if they'd try negotiating with TFG
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:38 PM
Oct 2022

and how far they think that would get them.

The bottom line is that you can't negotiate with a pathological liar who believes his own bullshit, and that describes both of them. They'll say what you want to hear and then do the opposite because their word is worthless.

padah513

(2,707 posts)
54. Agreed
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:49 PM
Oct 2022

It's hard to negotiate with someone who doesn't, in good faith, want to negotiate

Roy Rolling

(7,433 posts)
53. Peace Talks
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:45 PM
Oct 2022

Then a treaty.

Negotiators are salespeople. More than golden-tongued salespeople they need a lasting peace.

The very language used diminishes the grave importance of the efforts—life or death. Get fucking serious, politicians, there is no magic sales pitch needed by our current diplomatic people.

Response to The Protagonist (Original post)

PSPS

(15,221 posts)
56. I don't get it. Everything they suggest in the letter has been our policy since this all began.
Mon Oct 24, 2022, 11:57 PM
Oct 2022

Grins

(9,264 posts)
57. How do you do that???
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 12:10 AM
Oct 2022

How do you “(pursue) a negotiated settlement” when you are not one of the principals?

It’s not our war!

blue-wave

(4,827 posts)
59. You know what?
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 12:17 AM
Oct 2022

I was going to make another donation to the DNC tonight, but now I'm not. I will donate to my Democratic candidate/s of choice. It will be those who support democracy in the world and ending the reign of genocidal tyrants.

I need to stop typing right now because the rest of what I want to say will get me banned from DU.

cstanleytech

(28,245 posts)
62. I support a negotiated settlment if it includes every Russian involved in war crimes being arrested
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 12:57 AM
Oct 2022

and extradited to The Hague.

pecosbob

(8,316 posts)
63. If it were your friends and neighbors that were dying your perspective might be different
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 01:11 AM
Oct 2022

These posts remind me a lot of the 'love it or leave it' reactionaries during the Vietnam conflict.

onetexan

(13,913 posts)
66. Such BS!! so these Dems think the US oughtta roll over & bow to putin
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:41 AM
Oct 2022

When he invaded a country, devastated it and unleashed horrors on its people?
The only way to deal w putin & other tinpot dictators is to carry a big stick. Kick the russians out of UKR, make russia pay for reparations to rebuild & haul putin in front of the Hague to pay for his crimes.

 

Shermanator

(45 posts)
67. That's not up for us to decide
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:47 AM
Oct 2022

If Ukraine wants to negotiate a settlement all they need to do is ask and we'll be 100% behind them. Zelensky knows that. The Ukrainian government knows that.

dalton99a

(92,322 posts)
68. Putin's idea of negotiation: "Give me what I want or I'll use nuclear weapons"
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 07:07 AM
Oct 2022

Last edited Tue Oct 25, 2022, 07:40 AM - Edit history (1)



ashredux

(2,880 posts)
70. Read some damn history guys. Have you forgotten about World War II?
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 07:17 AM
Oct 2022

Read some damn history guys. Have you forgotten about World War II?

Neville Chamberlain, Poland, Hitler, a few of those types of things…

If you appease Putin, he will take a rest, and then come after another piece here… another piece there, and so forth.

ancianita

(42,973 posts)
76. It's not progressive at all to leave out Zelenskyy's terms -- 1. ALL of Crimea back; 2. Every last
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 08:46 AM
Oct 2022

Russian to be gone from Ukraine soil.

Not at all progressive, and completely naive.

BComplex

(9,776 posts)
77. Not no, but HELL NO!
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 09:29 AM
Oct 2022

Jayapal can stop this nonsense right now. I'm as anti-war and liberal as the next person, but this is no the usual "war for profit" kind of war. This is for democracy.

Bayard

(28,718 posts)
80. That's a load of crap!
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 10:52 AM
Oct 2022


There would be no negotiation, only blackmail. Russia invaded Ukraine, and is trying to take it by force. Why should Ukraine be required to give up anything? Besides, anyone that thinks Putin would keep his word, is completely delusional.

I don't see any benefit to Ukraine for diplomacy/negotiations here. Only demands. Get the hell out of our country, and pay for the destruction and lives lost. Stop pussy-footing around. Go for Putin's throat and invade Russia.

I have admired Rep. Jayapal, but very disappointed here, as in the rest of the signatories. This is way out of line for democracy.

William769

(59,147 posts)
87. Liberal Democrats withdraw letter to Biden that urged him to rethink Ukraine strategy
Tue Oct 25, 2022, 04:48 PM
Oct 2022

Source: Washington Post

The Congressional Progressive Caucus has withdrawn a letter, signed by 30 House liberals and sent to the White House Monday, that urged President Biden to negotiate directly with Russia to bring an end to the war in Ukraine. The withdrawal comes a day after the letter, led by Congressional Progressive Caucus chair Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), triggered fierce pushback from many Democrats, as well as from Ukrainian officials, who argued it was unrealistic to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

They also worried the letter could create more pressure on Biden as he tries to sustain domestic support for the war effort, at a time when the region is heading into a potentially difficult winter and Republicans are threatening to cut aid to Ukraine if they retake Congress. On Tuesday, Jayapal said the letter had been drafted several months ago and “released by staff without vetting.”

“As Chair of the Caucus, I accept responsibility for this. Because of the timing, our message is being conflated by some as being equivalent to the recent statement by Republican Leader [Kevin] McCarthy threatening an end to aid to Ukraine if Republicans take over,” Jayapal said in a statement.

“The proximity of these statements created the unfortunate appearance that Democrats, who have strongly and unanimously supported and voted for every package of military, strategic, and economic assistance to the Ukrainian people, are somehow aligned with Republicans who seek to pull the plug on American support for President Zelensky and the Ukrainian forces.”

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/25/democrats-ukraine-letter/

Going to have to find something else to be "concerned" about.

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