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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Biden approves sending 31...

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:18 PM

Star Member BumRushDaShow (107,752 posts)

Biden approves sending 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine

Last edited Wed Jan 25, 2023, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: ABC News

In a major increase of U.S. support to Ukraine, President Joe Biden has signed off on sending 31 M1 Abrams tanks to the war-torn country as concerns mount over a new Russian offensive this spring.

"Secretary [Lloyd] Austin has recommended this step because it will enhance the Ukraine's capacity to defend its territory and achieve its strategic objectives," Biden said on Wednesday in remarks from the White House's Roosevelt Room, flanked by Austin, the defense secretary, and Secretary of State Antony Blinken.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly appealed for more tanks, with a harsh winter and the one-year anniversary of Russia's invasion approaching. The political maneuvering had muddled Ukraine's plea while Russia is thought to be preparing for a spring offensive.

For weeks, Pentagon officials said publicly that the Abrams tanks weren't suited for the fight in Ukraine, including because of the fuel they need to operate. But officials also did not rule out the vehicles as a potential long-term possibility.

Read more: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-approves-sending-31-abrams-tanks-ukraine-president/story?id=96660143




(Ukraine remarks will be given shortly at the above - not sure about the graphic overlay regarding "California" )

Article updated.

Original article -

In a major increase of U.S. support to Ukraine, President Joe Biden has signed off on sending 31 M1 Abrams tanks to the war-torn country as concerns mount over a new Russian offensive this spring, according to senior administration officials.

"The reason for 31 is because that is how many tanks would constitute a Ukrainian tank battalion," a U.S. official told reporters in a conference call earlier Wednesday. "So we are specifically meeting that requirement."

The president is set to speak at noon ET from White House's Roosevelt Room on the "continued support for Ukraine," as Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has put out a direct appeal for more tanks with a harsh winter and the one-year anniversary of Russia's invasion approaching.

The U.S. announcement about its tank commitment comes the same day Germany has also pledged to send Ukraine 14 of its own Leopard 2 tanks.

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Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply Biden approves sending 31 Abrams tanks to Ukraine (Original post)
 BumRushDaShow Jan 25 OP
LineReply i could about 150+ modern western tanks pledged to Ukraine now.
 samsingh Jan 25 #1
LineLineReply That can be deceiving....
 getagrip_already Jan 25 #2
LineLineLineReply Between a Bradley and a T-72 variant, the winner is usually whoever sees the other first
 GregariousGroundhog Jan 25 #5
LineLineLineReply Even mobile infantry support is a waste of a tank's capabilities.
 Aristus Jan 25 #6
LineLineLineLineReply Lima Army Tank Plant, in Lima Ohio is in 'Gym' Jordans district makes the M1A1 Abrams
 irisblue Jan 25 #10
LineLineLineLineLineReply You can be damned sure he's going to try to minimize President Biden's contributions,
 Aristus Jan 25 #12
LineLineLineLineLineLineReply His district has kept him in office since 2007. You are likely right
 irisblue Jan 25 #15
LineLineLineLineReply Ukraine has done some offensive opperations
 Buzz cook Jan 25 #14
LineLineLineReply A Battalion (31) Of M1A2-Abrams...
 GB_RN Jan 25 #7
LineLineReply The current count is 73 tanks definitively pledged
 GregariousGroundhog Jan 25 #3
LineLineLineReply It's The M1A2, Officially Announced...
 GB_RN Jan 25 #8
LineLineLineLineReply Even better :)
 GregariousGroundhog Jan 25 #16
LineReply Bet we get a nuke threat from Putin today.
 BradBo Jan 25 #4
LineLineReply And, hopefully, a stroke
 peppertree Jan 25 #9
LineLineNew Reply I had a dream of a a massive nuke strike and counter strike right over my head, woke me up!
 Shanti Shanti Shanti Friday #29
LineReply I'll bet
 orangecrush Jan 25 #11
LineReply More anti missle and anti aircraft weapons would be nice as well.
 Buzz cook Jan 25 #13
LineReply like it
 republianmushroom Jan 25 #17
LineReply great day to be a defense contractor
 dembotoz Jan 25 #18
LineReply That's not all
 Calista241 Jan 25 #19
LineReply Thereby ingeniously providing Scholz of his figleaf
 anamnua Jan 25 #20
LineReply Yay. More $$ to war contractors.
 Seeking Serenity Jan 25 #21
LineLineReply So your solution about Russian aggression is.............what?
 MarineCombatEngineer Jan 25 #22
LineLineLineNew Reply My course of action would NOT be endless war
 Seeking Serenity Jan 26 #25
LineLineLineLineNew Reply I'm anti war also given my experiences,
 MarineCombatEngineer Jan 26 #27
LineLineLineLineNew Reply "Y'know, like Democrats used to."
 BumRushDaShow Jan 26 #28
LineLineReply The Neville Chamberlain disgrace shouldn't be repeated.
 Lucky Luciano Jan 25 #23
LineLineReply If these tanks were not sent to Ukraine, we still wouldn't have M4A
 XorXor Jan 26 #24
LineNew Reply What kind of fuel to they run on? Premium? Diesel?
 maxsolomon Jan 26 #26
LineLineNew Reply M1 Abrams has a jet turbine engine rather than a diesel, so they use JP-8 aviation gas, jet fuel
 Shanti Shanti Shanti Friday #30
LineLineLineNew Reply Yes, they do run on JP-8,
 MarineCombatEngineer Friday #31
LineLineLineLineNew Reply True too, whatever they use, have lots of it, they be the ultimate gas guzzlers, gallons to the mile
 Shanti Shanti Shanti Friday #32
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Absolutely correct,
 MarineCombatEngineer Friday #33
LineNew Reply One thing the Ukrainian tankers are really going to love about the Abrams:
 Aristus Friday #34

Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:25 PM

samsingh (17,269 posts)

1. i could about 150+ modern western tanks pledged to Ukraine now.

halfway to the 300 tank goal

this is good.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:43 PM

getagrip_already (10,194 posts)

2. That can be deceiving....

The Bradley's, while not an mbt, are easily the equal of the old pos russian tanks. Sure, those tanks can kill a Bradley, but are unlikely to do so through indirect fire. Even line of sight targeting on a moving target reportedly sucks.

The Russians are using their tanks more like mobile artillery than mobile infantry support. Or so it seems anyway.

In any case, they are getting a lot of m2s.


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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:05 PM

GregariousGroundhog (7,235 posts)

5. Between a Bradley and a T-72 variant, the winner is usually whoever sees the other first

The optics and targeting computer on a T-72 can vary considerably, depending on when it was manufactured and last refitted. On a whole though, I suspect the odds are in the Ukrainians favor.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:06 PM

Star Member Aristus (61,090 posts)

6. Even mobile infantry support is a waste of a tank's capabilities.

The tank is supposed to be the spearhead of a combined arms strike force, supported by air, artillery, and infantry. It shines best in offensive operations. Now, of course, that's not what Ukraine wants to do; they are fighting defensively. But they can use the new tanks to drive Russia out of the Crimea for starters, and then push the entire invasion force out of Ukraine for good.

One of the reasons Russia's tank force is getting crushed by Ukraine is because the tanks are being used as you pointed out above: mobile artillery and infantry support. The worse thing a tank can be is a rolling pillbox.

When I was a tanker in the Army, we always trained as a rapid strike force leading the way, with infantry bringing up the rear to hold and consolidate the gains earned by the tanks.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:32 PM

Star Member irisblue (30,149 posts)

10. Lima Army Tank Plant, in Lima Ohio is in 'Gym' Jordans district makes the M1A1 Abrams

His constituents work there, the money they make in a depressed area of Ohio is important to the community.
I will be curious to see what that mofo Jordan says about this deal.

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Response to irisblue (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:42 PM

Star Member Aristus (61,090 posts)

12. You can be damned sure he's going to try to minimize President Biden's contributions,

and Jordan's diseased supporters will believe him.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:23 PM

Star Member irisblue (30,149 posts)

15. His district has kept him in office since 2007. You are likely right

Source-https://ballotpedia.org/Jim_Jordan_(Ohio)

snip-"Tenure
2007 - Present

Term ends
2025

Years in position
16"

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:20 PM

Buzz cook (2,420 posts)

14. Ukraine has done some offensive opperations

So not just fighting defensively. Their attack in Kherson and Kharkiv might be a model of what the Ukrainians would do with a few modern tanks.
The problem, as I see it is, the lack of air superiority. Without that the tanks are going to be tethered to mobile AAA.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:13 PM

GB_RN (1,839 posts)

7. A Battalion (31) Of M1A2-Abrams...

Or even a company at a time (14 tanks or so), will plow the field clear of anything the Russians have deployed. Add in the British Challenger MBTs and German Leopard 2 tanks, all while backed up by a crapload of M2-Bradley fighting vehicles? Wherever these are deployed, the Russians don't stand a chance.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:50 PM

GregariousGroundhog (7,235 posts)

3. The current count is 73 tanks definitively pledged

14 Challenger 2 (U.K.)
14 Leopard 2, variant unknown (Poland)
14 Leopard 2A6 (Germany)
31 Abrams M1A1 (US)

Poland hasn't specified whether they are providing the Leopard 2A4 or the 2A5; they have about an equal number of both in inventory.

Norway were considering sending eight tanks as part of a coalition deal, and the Netherlands 18; Spain and Finland were also considering sending an undisclosed number. I suspect we'll be hearing from these four countries in the coming days.




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Response to GregariousGroundhog (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:15 PM

GB_RN (1,839 posts)

8. It's The M1A2, Officially Announced...

Edited: From Biden's presser (per Daily Kos's Mark Summer, who's been watching it), it's the M1A2 Ukraine is getting.

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Response to GB_RN (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:36 PM

GregariousGroundhog (7,235 posts)

16. Even better :)

So then CNBC either has old or incorrect information:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/25/ukraine-war-news-us-will-send-abrams-tanks.html



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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:56 PM

BradBo (339 posts)

4. Bet we get a nuke threat from Putin today.

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Response to BradBo (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:31 PM

Star Member peppertree (18,316 posts)

9. And, hopefully, a stroke

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Response to BradBo (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 06:07 AM

Shanti Shanti Shanti (11,489 posts)

29. I had a dream of a a massive nuke strike and counter strike right over my head, woke me up!

Don't have many apocalyptic experiences like that, it was a doozy, duck and cover

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 01:36 PM

Star Member orangecrush (16,067 posts)

11. I'll bet


It's a lot more than that.




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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:05 PM

Buzz cook (2,420 posts)

13. More anti missle and anti aircraft weapons would be nice as well.

Tanks are cool and will sure enable more offense.
But currently most of the casualties are from missiles and aircraft of different types. Or at least that's what I hear on the news.
Access to info from spy satellites and maybe a friendly AWACs would be nice too.
And as long as I'm wishing, some anti ship cruise missiles would probably do some good.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 05:05 PM

republianmushroom (3,903 posts)

17. like it

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 05:18 PM

dembotoz (15,621 posts)

18. great day to be a defense contractor

would prefer green economy but a job is a job

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 06:16 PM

Calista241 (5,469 posts)

19. That's not all

The Ukrainians are also getting 8 M88 recovery vehicles and low boy trucks to transport the M1A2 tanks. Not including 120mm tank ammo and spare parts.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 08:09 PM

Star Member anamnua (1,017 posts)

20. Thereby ingeniously providing Scholz of his figleaf

-- or depriving him of his excuse.
May they prove the death knell of many a brutal invader.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 10:17 PM

Seeking Serenity (2,615 posts)

21. Yay. More $$ to war contractors.

The MIC is living large. Meanwhile, we've got no M4A, and homeless veterans are sleeping rough under bridges in the cold.

Priorities, don'cha know. Because God forbid that the War mongers not get every last fucking cent!

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Response to Seeking Serenity (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 10:29 PM

Star Member MarineCombatEngineer (8,680 posts)

22. So your solution about Russian aggression is.............what?



Should the world ignore Ukr. needs against Russia's illegal invasion and wholesale slaughter of Ukrainan civilians and not supply them with the needs to repel the Russian military?

What would be your course of action?

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 04:36 PM

Seeking Serenity (2,615 posts)

25. My course of action would NOT be endless war

Last edited Thu Jan 26, 2023, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)

I've always been antiwar. I'm not changing now.

I'm not OK with bailing out big banks or making sure war contractors have hot and cold running champagne at their homes.

Y'know, like Democrats used to.

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Response to Seeking Serenity (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 05:24 PM

Star Member MarineCombatEngineer (8,680 posts)

27. I'm anti war also given my experiences,

but this isn't about big banks or defense contractors, this is about us supporting a sovereign nation, Ukraine, to see to it that they have the necessary tools to give them a fighting chance against an illegal invasion by Putin against them.

Democrats, like me, are against illegal and unnecessary wars, there's a difference here between our experiences in Vietnam and the Ukrainian's fight against Russia.

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Response to Seeking Serenity (Reply #25)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 05:54 PM

Star Member BumRushDaShow (107,752 posts)

28. "Y'know, like Democrats used to."

Unfortunately history doesn't bare that out.

See FDR (WW2), Truman (Korean War), JFK/Johnson (Vietnam War), Carter (Afghanistan), Clinton (breakup of Yugoslavia), Obama (Syria).

The difference is that Democrats did not INITIATE "wars" through invasions under dubious justifications, including to "bring Democracy to the world" like Republicans, e.g., Raygun and Panama & Granada, Poppy (Iraq & Kuwait), Shrub (Afghanistan, Iraq). Democrats provided material support to satisfy treaty obligations (save for WW2 when we were attacked, the aftermath leading to the formation of NATO).

Republicans were the PNAC-hugging war-mongers.

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Response to Seeking Serenity (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 11:12 PM

Lucky Luciano (10,995 posts)

23. The Neville Chamberlain disgrace shouldn't be repeated.

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Response to Seeking Serenity (Reply #21)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 12:13 PM

XorXor (307 posts)

24. If these tanks were not sent to Ukraine, we still wouldn't have M4A

Instead we'd have a Russian flag flying over Kyiv and still be without a good solution for our healthcare system. Your argument is a lot like the ones that complain about the "wasteful" space program with a 24 billion dollar budget. As if those are things preventing us from funding multi-hundred billion dollar or even trillion dollar programs. Neither of these are what's preventing that from happening.

Helping Ukraine defend itself against Russian aggression is exactly how we should want our defense monies to be spent. Is it a good thing? No! It would be better if we didn't have to, but much like in WW2, it is something that needs to be done. This isn't like us spending trillions of dollars in our own unnecessary and counter productive war of aggression in Iraq.

Maybe you can elaborate on how you believe the situation should be handled. I'm always interested in hearing different viewpoints.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Thu Jan 26, 2023, 05:15 PM

maxsolomon (29,560 posts)

26. What kind of fuel to they run on? Premium? Diesel?

So weird.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 08:16 AM

Shanti Shanti Shanti (11,489 posts)

30. M1 Abrams has a jet turbine engine rather than a diesel, so they use JP-8 aviation gas, jet fuel

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Response to Shanti Shanti Shanti (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 08:24 AM

Star Member MarineCombatEngineer (8,680 posts)

31. Yes, they do run on JP-8,

but they are also a multi fuel tank.


The tank is powered by Avco Lycoming (now Honeywell) AGT1500 gas turbine engine, developing 1 500 horsepower. Essentially it is a modified helicopter engine, adapted for use on tanks. It is a multi-fuel engine, which can run on any grade of petrol, diesel, aviation fuel or kerosene. This engine has impressive performance and is compact for its power output. So even though the Abrams tank is heavy and bulky, it is surprisingly agile. It is faster than many other tanks and has superior cross-country performance. Also the engine is remarkably quiet. Due to this feature the Abrams is even nicknamed the Whispering Death. Its gas turbine engine has servicing intervals significantly longer than those of diesel engines, however is troublesome to maintain and has very high fuel consumption comparing with diesels. Engine can be replaced in field conditions within 30 minutes. Chassis and transmission of the M1A1 was improved to coupe with increased tank's weight. This main battle tank can be equipped with mine plow or mine rollers



https://www.military-today.com/tanks/m1a1_abrams.htm

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Response to MarineCombatEngineer (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 08:39 AM

Shanti Shanti Shanti (11,489 posts)

32. True too, whatever they use, have lots of it, they be the ultimate gas guzzlers, gallons to the mile

Moving a 50 ton tracked vehicle at any speed takes a lot of work, lol

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Response to Shanti Shanti Shanti (Reply #32)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 08:41 AM

Star Member MarineCombatEngineer (8,680 posts)

33. Absolutely correct,

they are fuel guzzlers, the Leopards are better suited for Ukr.

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Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Fri Jan 27, 2023, 11:15 AM

Star Member Aristus (61,090 posts)

34. One thing the Ukrainian tankers are really going to love about the Abrams:

The turbine-engine exhaust. Nothing in the world on a freezing day like cranking up the tank, then standing behind the thing, basking in the warm exhaust of the engine. The engine is nice and quiet, and there's almost none of the dirty, lung-irritating smoky exhaust characteristic of a diesel engine.

We'd stand behind the tank until the warmth saturated our clothing, then climb aboard, crank the crew-space heater, and roll out for another winter's day in the field.

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