Reuters: US to send depleted-uranium munitions to Ukraine
Source: Yahoo! News
Fri, September 1, 2023 at 7:21 PM EDT
In a significant development, the Biden administration is preparing to ship armor-piercing munitions containing depleted uranium to Ukraine, marking the first time such weaponry will be sent to the country. This information was revealed in a document seen by Reuters and independently confirmed by two U.S. officials.
Depleted uranium is a by-product of uranium enrichment. It is roughly two and a half times denser than steel, which makes it particularly effective for piercing heavy armor on the battlefield.
These specialized rounds, designed to effectively combat Russian tanks, form a key component of a forthcoming military aid package for Ukraine, scheduled to be officially announced within the next week. The coming aid package will be worth between $240 million and $375 million depending on what is included.
The munitions are compatible with U.S. Abrams tanks, which are anticipated to be delivered to Ukraine shortly, according to the source.
Read more: https://news.yahoo.com/reuters-us-send-depleted-uranium-232150639.html
diane in sf
(4,218 posts)a very long time.
NNadir
(37,330 posts)ramen
(862 posts)NNadir
(37,330 posts)I have a rather long post in preparation here on the subject of environmental uranium that sites, at this point, about 20 or 30 scientific papers. It is mostly concerned with a process to remove natural uranium from groundwater and fertilizers, where it is relatively common, the latter because of the high affinity of uranium for phosphate species.
I am saving it for DU4's appearance, since it refers to scientific papers and scientific units and DU4 will feature. once again as earlier versions of DU, the use of exponents.
In my files I have thousands of papers on the actinides, including uranium, papers I've been collecting for decades. They are not papers by social scientists, but in general, physical scientists and molecular biologists. Now it is true that most of the thousands of papers I have on the subject of the actinides and uranium concern their use as nuclear fuels, and are about saving the world from the fear and ignorance that is driving climate change and has left the world in flames, and not about uranium health fetishes.
A subset of these papers are on uranium physiology, generally connected with the role of U(VI) as a Fenton type oxidant inducing free radicals. The toxicology is generally chemical (not radiological) in nature, and shows up primarily as a nephrotoxic toxic species. Uranium is a relatively common element, as common as tin. It is, in fact, a toxic element, as is well known, but all toxic elements in the periodic table require two things to exhibit toxicity, absorption and mobility. This would include the mercury and lead that is routinely dumped into the planetary atmosphere by coal plants because of idiot fetishes about uranium, among other things, have constrained the use of nuclear energy. I note that depleted uranium is much less radioactive than natural uranium found in groundwater in places like Texas and Kansas on the Ogalala aquifer. Natural uranium, as uranium, in disequilibrium with its decay products, has a specific activity of about 1 microcurie per gram. Depleted uranium is about half of that, and on the order of the radioactivity associated with natural potassium, an essential element.
The mobile state of uranium is generally U(VI), whereas the metal when it "rusts" is generally in the insoluble state U(IV).
The reactions that take place in metallic uranium are these:

Stephanie Handley-Sidhu, Miranda J. Keith-Roach, Jonathan R. Lloyd, David J. Vaughan, A review of the environmental corrosion, fate and bioavailability of munitions grade depleted uranium, Science of The Total Environment, Volume 408, Issue 23, 2010.
Only reaction 5 results in mobile uranium, and then at low levels, since while the U(VI) divalent cation is soluble, it is only sparingly so.
We can cherry pick from the scientific literature all day, but here is an excerpt from an open sourced review paper:
Despite this, there are also epidemiological studies that found an increased frequency of micronuclei formation [56] or other chromosomal instability [57,58,59] in the exposed population and military veterans from wars in the Balkans and the Gulf War. Another study showed, for example, increased incidences of various types of cancer and birth defects among civilians living in those affected areas [60,61,62,63,64,65,66]. These studies suggest that DU exposure is either a primary cause or related to the main cause of congenital anomalies and increased rates of cancer.
It is difficult to detect an increased cancer risk due to radiation at doses lower than 100 mSv due to the excess risk at low doses being small in comparison to spontaneous rates of cancers of the same type [5]. As the increase in cancer occurrences being high (by a factor of two to five) in the above-mentioned cases, it is possible that these negative effects were also caused by other factors (e.g., biological or chemical agents, etc.).
After the various military conflicts in which DU was used, studies were conducted to evaluate whether there were/are grounds for concern about the health hazards of DU for military members and civilians. These epidemiological studies that have examined the levels of uranium in the urine of these groups have come to the conclusion that there were no significant exposure amounts of DU [67,68,69,70,71].
Studies were not limited to only military field DU ingestion, but also examined civilian life, as in the case of the release of DU in fire. An example of this kind of events took place in 1992 in Amsterdam, as a cargo plane using DU as a ballast crashed. The plane was carrying 282 kg of DU as the ballast, but only 130 kg was recovered. It was assumed that the remainder was consumed in the fire, which created the possibility that uranium oxide particles had been dispersed through dust and smoke and were subsequently inhaled or ingested. A follow-up study, which began in 2000 and was attended by 2499 workers (firefighters, police officers, hangar workers) involved in the liquidation of the accident, revealed significantly elevated concentrations of uranium in their urine compared with untreated workers. Impaired renal function parameters were also found [72].
From the results of most epidemiologic studies, it follows that the association between the use of DU ammunition and oncological or other diseases of soldiers from the Gulf War, as well as from the Balkan Wars [1,73,74], has not yet been conclusively demonstrated. There is also no convincing evidence that the use of the DU ammunition is dangerous to the civilian population in areas of former military activity [1,12,75]...
Depleted Uranium and Its Effects on Humans
I added the bold.
War is always a toxicological nightmare, which should not be surprising, since the goal of war is to kill people. It is relatively difficult to isolate one cause of toxicology from another in war. What we have here among antinukes, a class of people who are responsible for roughly seven million deaths per year, 19,000 per day, from air pollution and are also to my mind the direct and obvious cause of climate change, who wish to fetishize uranium.
cf. Global burden of 87 risk factors in 204 countries and territories, 19902019: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2019 (Lancet Volume 396, Issue 10258, 1723 October 2020, Pages 1223-1249).
It's a rather old and tragic story; one that should generate as much disgust as antivax rhetoric produces, although antivax rhetoric has not killed anywhere near as many people as antinuke rhetoric has killed. Since the Gulf War in 2003, about 140 million people have died from air pollution.
Now, for the record, I generally oppose war, although I regard the Ukrainian defense of their country from aggression as justified. I note that the Russians in this war were funded by antinukes from Germany who bought Russian gas and oil because of an idiotic fear of nuclear energy.
Nuclear energy would not have only saved lives had the Germans not funded an uncivilized thug like Putin, however. It saves lives associated with the use of energy, initially from air pollution, but far more exigent over the long term, from climate change:
Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 48894895)
To save human lives and to save the planet, we need to deal with uranium. We should minimize the risks, but the risks associated with uranium are far lower than the risks of not using uranium.
womanofthehills
(10,721 posts)After the horrific mining of uranium on Navajo land for the Manhattan Project.
By MARY HUDETZ
Published 8:30 PM MDT, October 7, 2019
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) About a quarter of Navajo women and some infants who were part of a federally funded study on uranium exposure had high levels of the radioactive metal in their systems, decades after mining for Cold War weaponry ended on their reservation, a U.S. health official Monday.
The early findings from the University of New Mexico study were shared during a congressional field hearing in Albuquerque. Dr. Loretta Christensen the chief medical officer on the Navajo Nation for Indian Health Service, a partner in the research said 781 women were screened during an initial phase of the study that ended last year.
Among them, 26% had concentrations of uranium that exceeded levels found in the highest 5% of the U.S. population, and newborns with equally high concentrations continued to be exposed to uranium during their first year, she said.
https://apnews.com/general-news-united-states-congress-334124280ace4b36beb6b8d58c328ae3
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)but when you're in a fight for your life, you use all means necessary to defeat your invaders and if that means the Ukrainians want depleted uranium tank rounds, then by all means, supply them with as many as they think they need.
ManiacJoe
(10,138 posts)It is a heavy metal problem like lead and mercury.
Diraven
(1,834 posts)And there's definitely way more of those scattered around.
newdayneeded
(2,493 posts)they shot 10 individuals with 2 lead bullets to the heart and every one of them died. Pretty clear cut case that the lead in the bullets is a killer!
Kennah
(14,555 posts)COL Mustard
(8,006 posts)It's less radioactive than the naturally occurring uranium that's in the environment. I worked on this at the end of the Clinton administration and there were US troops who'd been wounded by DU fragments during Desert Storm. It wasn't safe to remove the fragments, so the troops got monthly monitoring from the VA or from the Army, and while they had slightly elevated levels of radioactivity in their urine, there were no cases of cancer, of any type associated with DU munitions.
Additionally, DU is in fact a low level alpha radiation emitter. The alpha radiation can be stopped by something as thin as a sheet of paper. At the moment of impact, a DU penetrator does give off some gamma radiation, but you would need to be within about three feet of the point of impact to be affected by the gamma radiation. And frankly, if you're that close, you will have other significant problems to deal with.
paleotn
(21,628 posts)Old Army friend explained the depleted uranium sabot round to me years ago. No explosives. It consists of a fin stabilized dart he called the "silver bullet." It kills tanks and other vehicles by sheer kinetic energy, penetrates armor and sprays super hot metal throughout whatever unfortunate vehicle is hit. The carnage is incredible. To be effective, the dart is composed of the densest material you can find. Depleted uranium is an effective choice but....and here's the big but.....it spreads depleted uranium residue all over the place.
I'm sure the Ukrainians are fully aware of the long term risk and national survival is the top priority. They'll deal with the aftermath later. A decision many Americans can't fathom since we've never been faced with such a threat outside of Hollywood.
Hope22
(4,486 posts)Cancer, children with birth defects and undiagnosed diseases over the course of their lifetimes.
paleotn
(21,628 posts)The choice is dealing with the aftermath of a lot of such things.....or just quit and be Russian. A conquered people and a crushed democracy. What decision would you make?
Like I said, Americans just can't get their heads around such trade offs. We're soft and warm in our nice comfy bubble and don't have to think about such things. That in itself drives threats to democracy in my mind. Not that I wish such decisions on us as a people, but it would do us a lot of good to remember how much of the rest of the world lives.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18239669
Hope22
(4,486 posts)We do have people paying the price every day. The Ukrainian people have been through it all, over and over again. They are at risk of a madman blowing up their nuclear reactor in front of their very eyes. I understand. This attack on Ukraine makes all of us less human. As a peacenik who takes shit from my family members who have served our country I will never miss an opportunity to stand up and support them. All troops deserve non radioactive ammo.
Martin68
(27,119 posts)Hope22
(4,486 posts)The burn sites and more. Terminal dizziness with falling over times how many cases! War and its fallout hurts people at home and abroad. No end in sight. Such a sad waste but the powers that be get rich off of it so the planet and her people suffer. It would be nice if Ukraine could be the wake up call. Such a senseless sad waste. The bargains of mad men!
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)If Russia hadn't illegally invaded a sovereign nation, then there wouldn't be the need for these tank rounds, but now that Russia has, then, IMO, give them everything they need to throw these Russian troops back across their own border.
The Ukrainians have probably considered all the risks and are willing to take them to defeat the Russian armor.
Hope22
(4,486 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)I apply that standard to our follies also, IE Vietnam, Iraq, etc.
womanofthehills
(10,721 posts)In the late 80's, early 90's I worked at Carrie Tingley Children's Hospital in Albuquerque. Sometimes we had kids helicoptered in from the Navajo Nation. Kids would come & stay for weeks/months for rehab. I developed a very close relationship with a 12 yr old girl Beverly from Crownpoint, NM who had an amputated leg from bone cancer. I took her out of the hospital all the time - she loved Lotaburger and the Albuquerque flea market. After knowing her for 2 yrs, she died of cancer as her mother had. The docs at Carrie Tingley had no doubt it was the uranium tailings at Crownpoint - drinking water, air, houses contaminated with uranium.
Inside the Navajo Church Rock Nuclear Disaster, the largest radioactive disaster in US history that's somehow often forgotten
In a matter of hours, 94 million gallons of radioactive water and 1,100 tons of uranium waste flooded into a nearby river.
The spill killed crops and cattle, and contaminated the surrounding land and the people who lived off it for decades to come.
It happened just four months after the Three Mile Island nuclear accident. It was the largest accidental release of radioactivity in US history and third worst accident in history, after the Chernobyl catastrophe in 1986 and Fukushima in 2011.
https://www.businessinsider.in/international/news/inside-the-navajo-church-rock-nuclear-disaster-the-largest-radioactive-disaster-in-us-history-thataposs-somehow-often-forgotten/slidelist/100802898.cm
The federal government is cleaning up a long legacy of uranium mining within the Navajo Nation some 27,000 square miles spread across Utah, New Mexico and Arizona that is home to more than 250,000 people.
Many Navajo people have died of kidney failure and cancer, conditions linked to uranium contamination. And new research from the CDC shows uranium in babies born now.
Mining companies blasted 4 million tons of uranium out of Navajo land between 1944 and 1986. The federal government purchased the ore to make atomic weapons. As the Cold War threat petered out the companies left, abandoning more than 500 mines.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/04/10/473547227/for-the-navajo-nation-uranium-minings-deadly-legacy-lingers
Martin68
(27,119 posts)that's why we in Virginia have banned uranium mining in the state.
But I believe the topic was the danger of depleted uranium ammunition? Uranium miners don't mine depleted uranium.
womanofthehills
(10,721 posts)From EPA https://www.epa.gov/navajo-nation-uranium-cleanup/abandoned-mines-cleanup
From 1944 to 1986, nearly 30 million tons of uranium ore were extracted from Navajo lands under leases with the Navajo Nation. Many Navajo people worked the mines, often living and raising families in close proximity to the mines and mills. Today the mines are closed, but a legacy of uranium contamination remains, including over 500 abandoned uranium mines (AUMs) as well as homes and water sources with elevated levels of radiation. Potential health effects include lung cancer from inhalation of radioactive particles, as well as bone cancer and impaired kidney function from exposure to radionuclides in drinking water. Learn more about health effects of uranium and how you can avoid contact with it.
EPA maintains a strong partnership with the Navajo Nation and, since 1994, the Superfund Program has provided technical assistance and funding to assess potentially contaminated sites and develop a response.
paleotn
(21,628 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)Those tank rounds will easily punch through the Russian armor be it a tank, APC, etc.
COL Mustard
(8,006 posts)I wonder which variant we're providing? I can't imagine it's the M829A4.
orthoclad
(4,728 posts)from ramen's harvard link:
Depleted uranium may pose a risk to both soldiers and local civilian populations. When ammunition made from depleted uranium strikes a target, the uranium turns into dust that is inhaled by soldiers near the explosion site. The wind then carries dust to surrounding areas, polluting local water and agriculture.
Pieces of old armor and ammunition also pose a threat, particularly to local children playing on tanks and other military hardware made from depleted uranium. The kids were playing on the tanks and they were collecting the bullets, explained Souad Al-Azzawi, an associate professor of environmental engineering at the Canadian University Dubai and former director of the doctoral program in environmental engineering at the University of Baghdad. For some of the people, those bullets stayed in their houses for years. It was a disaster.
This should not come as a surprise. Students rarelyif everreceive education about the harms of depleted uranium. Children arent warned against playing on toxic structures, reflecting a general lack of public awareness on the issue. Moreover, some young children may be exposed to depleted uranium through contaminated soil in former conflict zones.
The depleted uranium left over from the Gulf Wars should be a cause for concern. Although it is only 60 percent as radioactive as natural uranium, depleted uranium is still chemically and radiologically toxic.
People not yet born can't give consent. Elemental uranium lasts practically forever.
When you're faced with a tank killing your people, you can't pause to consider whether your ammo is poison. But we can.
4lbs
(7,395 posts)Easily tore through them.
I'm sure Ukraine expects the same result. However, Ukraine may be more judicious in their use
to try to limit health risks. I trust the Ukrainian military to figure out how best to use them.
However, yes, there seems to be a huge radioactive risk factor.
Russia: US Used 300 Tons of Depleted Uranium during Invasion of Iraq
March 25, 2023
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2023/03/25/2871712/russia-us-used-300-tons-of-depleted-uranium-during-invasion-of-iraq
Even though the initial claim was by Russia, it was verified by the UN and others.
--------------
A 2018 investigation by Al Araby shows Iraq recorded the highest rate of congenital malformations in the world over the previous decade. These rates were worse in Fallujah, which was showered in depleted uranium and white phosphorus by US coalition forces.
According to the Iraqi government, in 2005, the incidence of cancer in the country due to the use of depleted uranium munitions increased from 40 to 1,600 cases per 100,000 citizens. In this regard, Baghdad filed an official lawsuit with the International Court of Arbitration in Stockholm on December 26, 2020, against Washington, claiming compensation for the damages sustained, Kirillov added.
In 2014, the Dutch peace group Pax revealed that US jets and tanks fired nearly 10,000 depleted uranium rounds in Iraq, many of which were fired in or near populated areas.
--------------
EDIT:
Also...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7903104/
There they said no systematic review was done and nearly all reports have some bias in them.
Thus the article I linked above might be part of that. TasnimNews I later found out is published by
Iran for the Iranian Republican Guard military. Take that into account.
orthoclad
(4,728 posts)This is farmland, not desert. It will be plowed and disturbed for many generations. Uranium is toxic.
COL Mustard
(8,006 posts)The radioactivity is low, but it's like tungsten, nickel or lead and will settle in various organs and do its damage. Still, good on us for giving the Ukrainians what they need.
James48
(5,101 posts)Works very well in penetrating Russian armored vehicles.
Mathematically, killing one Russian tank crew (3 dead) would save the lives of a dozen or more Ukrainians who would otherwise be killed by the Russian tank.
Its mathematically better to kill the Russian tank crew with a depleted uranium round, if your goal is to reduce the number of casualties.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)We should not be escalating this war. We should be looking to broker peace.
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 2, 2023, 08:10 PM - Edit history (1)
How the fuck do we broker a peace when Putin has no intention of brokering a peace that's not beneficial to him all the while murdering innocent civilians?
The only peace that Ukraine should broker is demanding that Russia leave their sovereign territory that they illegally invaded.
Send Ukraine everything they need to defeat this tyrant, and if that means depleted uranium tank rounds, then so be it.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)How many lives should be taken. Should we provide unlimited support? Out own troops? Nuclear weapons? How much are you willing to commit before you will talk peace?
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)the person you should be asking is the tyrant that illegally invaded a sovereign country.
Oh, BTW, the only one threatening to use nukes is the country that illegally invaded Ukraine, the US/NATO alliance has not threatened to use nukes.
Try again.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)What is the limit of our support, in your opinion. Is there a line you would not cross as the leader?
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)go pose your question to the mad man who started this whole mess.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)I said we should broker peace. You said we should not. Why not? Based on your answer, you would never broker peace until with Putin conceedes or we have WWIII. Gotcha.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)After Ukraine, he wants to eat Europe.
The moment he breaches a NATO country, the US is officially at war. That means our soldiers, a lot more of our financial resources, and an ever-escalating nuclear threat.
I'm all for peace if the other side will do it. Putin won't. He is crazed and obsessed at a Hitler-like level.
This war is his deathwish. Conquest is what he wants for his legacy.
It's terrible that it has come to this, especially for Ukrainians and Russians. The Uks are fighting for their lives and freedom. We must continue to help them, and by doing that, we protect the democracies of Europe.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)The many reasons it is unique are rooted in history of the land and the people now referred to as Ukraine, both recent history and centuries long history. This is especially true of the border regions that historically have deep ties to Russia.
Just to be clear since people are in such a rush to report posts these days without reading the context, Russia is in the wrong here and I support the administration's efforts to help Ukraine. I also wish we were more focused on forcing a peaceful outcome, and I reject those that advocate for all-or-nothing, i.e., Russia surrenders or war goes on forever. No one in the administration is taking that position, thank god.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)But, Putin makes the situation intractable.
This post of yours is completely vacuous.
> I also wish we were more focused on forcing a peaceful outcome, and I reject those that advocate for all-or-nothing,
> i.e., Russia surrenders or war goes on forever. No one in the administration is taking that position, thank god.
You say this as if anyone here *wants* war.
Russia doesn't have to surrender. They have to withdraw from Ukraine. That's a big difference.
Forcing a peaceful outcome? Do you proofread yourself? How should we *force* a peaceful outcome?
Now there's a logical fallacy. A = ~ A
I am not going to respond to you further. You want to argue without argument.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)There are many ways to force something without resorting to violence. But you know that.
One way to bring this to an end is stop providing billions in weapons. The military industrial complex has never been happier.
Ask yourself this. Why do our leaders from both parties continue to lead us into forever wars? Follow the money.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)>> forever wars
Some wars are necessary. This one is. Iraq was not.
>> force something without resorting to violence
Not this time. Not with Putin.
>> But you know that.
That is obnoxious and absolutely ends this conversation. I know only that you are narrow-minded. No one on this board wants war. But it has been put upon one of our allies. You seem to have a problem understanding that nuance.
>> stop providing billions in weapons.
Then the Ukrainians die and Europe will soon be in WWIII.
I will not be discussing further with you.
If I see your name again on this thread, it goes on my ignore list permanently.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)Whatever
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)how does one force a peaceful outcome when the one who illegally invaded a sovereign nation has no intention of a peaceful outcome?
Putin has shown zero inclination to settle the war peacefully, except on his own terms.
Putin is a war criminal that's bent on European conquest, you don't negotiate with a war criminal who's slaughtering innocent civilians.
Why you insist on this peaceful solution when it's been very clear that Putin doesn't want a peaceful solution has me scratching my head.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)That Putin is bent on European conquest. He wants to control crimea and. Parts of Ikraine because he thinks it helps his security situation.
Getting really tired of arguing with fellow Democrats about advocating for endless wars.
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)starting with Ukraine, you say you disagree with the premise that Putin is not bent on conquest of Europe, you know that conquest doesn't consist of just military action, it also consists of subverting govts. to achieve the goal of creating a puppet govt that will be subservient to Moscow, which is pretty evident that Putin is trying to do even as we speak.
w
Nobody here is advocating for endless wars, what we're saying is that Ukraine has every right to defend itself against a tyrant who daily launches attacks against Ukrainian civilians, which is a war crime, and the US and NATO allies have every right to arm the Ukrainian military with whatever conventional weapons Ukraine needs.
You don't try to appease tyrants, like Chamberlain tried with Hitler, which led directly to WWII and all it's horrors.
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)Maybe you should read this and then rethink you words.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-general-admits-ukraine-just-a-stepping-stone-to-invade-europe/ar-AA1gtZQc?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=0a15a585d61b491da0371f8f9d36f787&ei=86
Russian General Admits Ukraine Just a 'Stepping Stone' to Invade Europe
Putin launched the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, sparking fears from many analysts that the Kremlin may have greater ambitions beyond taking control of its former Soviet neighbor. Russian commentators and lawmakers have often heightened those fears with their anti-North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) rhetoric throughout the warroutinely encouraging direct strikes on European and even American targets
This week, Putin promoted Lieutenant General Andrey Mordvichev to the rank of Colonel-General. The military leader had already been serving in the role of commanding the Central Military District and Russian Central Grouping of Forces in Ukraine.
In a recent interview with Moscow's state-run Russia-1, a clip of which circulated widely on social media Saturday, Mordvichev said he believes Putin's war will last quite a long time and expand in the future.
Mysterian
(6,190 posts)Really stupid idea.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)Lets just nuke every one.
SMH 🤦♀️
Mysterian
(6,190 posts)and it's you're.
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)you're one of those that prescribes to the Chamberlin doctrine, Peace for our time.
How well did that work out?
Never, ever give in to a tyrant, it just leads to more tyranny, as witnessed in WWII with Nazi Germany and the Axis powers.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)hueymahl
(2,902 posts)Other than pointing it out!
EX500rider
(12,207 posts)Seems fairly the same to me, you either stand up to a genocidal dictator invading his neighbors or you don't.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)It's a matter of semantics.
Putin is either like Hitler or he is not.
I say he *has* reached that level of potential threat.
Our ultimate goal should be peace. We have to get there. We do need to listen to voices that remind us of that goal.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)Reductio ad hitlerum is used to poke fun of people online who immediately go to hitler or hitler adjacent topics to try and shut down debate. Kind of like calling someone a bigot if their argument does not 100% agree with the latest orthodoxy.
Using a stricter and far less humorous logical fallacy, I could have said that by appealing to hitler in this context, you are engaging in a slippery slope fallacy by saying if we don't stop Putin here, he will attack the rest of Europe (the exact fallacy we engaged in while advocating for the Vietnam war). Or perhaps Moving the Goalposts, as has happened several times since when justifying our support of war, or maybe Burden of Proof, which the poster used when I asked him to describe what the limits of our actions should be, and he refused to answer while saying I should ask Putin. Or my favorite which is used frequently all over the place, Appeal to Authority, where otherwise rational people choose an illogical position just because the leader of the party takes that position too.
So I could have done all of this, but Reductio ad Hitlerum is a lot funnier.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)An analogy of Putin's behavior to that of other totalitarian tyrants is quite appropriate. It's learning from history.
Putin has made it clear that he will not stop at Ukraine -- that he wants the old Soviet Union back. He has said so. This is not us imputing motives to him.
There can be no limits on our response because there will be no limits on his aggression.
I felt as you did for the first few weeks of the invasion, but after seeing the results of the atrocities, such as many examples of ordinary people having been tortured and shot with their hands tied behind their backs, I now feel that he must be stopped at all costs.
And so far, those costs are 3% of the US annual military budget.
No, you aren't funny. You think it's okay for Ukrainians to be slaughtered. You don't care about Europe.
hueymahl
(2,902 posts)And we will have to agree to disagree about the rest. I think your position is flawed, and you think I lack compassion apparently.
Best wishes.
Earth-shine
(4,044 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)Respectfully, no, you're really not, but that's just my opinion.
XorXor
(690 posts)Your concern seems to be about Russia using nukes. Is that a fair assessment? If so, is it safe to say that Russia (or any nuclear armed state) should be allowed to annex any territory they wish because they may use nuclear weapons if they are resisted? If not, then what does it mean? What makes this different than if Russia tried to seize land of any other neighbors? If they tried to take parts of Finland or one of the Baltic states, would you have a similar opinion about brokering a peace to give Russia what it wants because Russia may use nukes?
I'm curious if you ever applied this same thought process to the targets of US aggression over the past 80 years. If not, why is this different?
womanofthehills
(10,721 posts)Russia will never give up Crimea. They will use a nuclear bomb before they give up Crimea.
MarineCombatEngineer
(17,776 posts)Would it have been better to live under Axis rule instead of fighting for freedom?
Mysterian
(6,190 posts)It's their decision.
XorXor
(690 posts)Do you think the Ukrainians are wrong for this? I think a good question to consider is what Ukraine would be doing if it had a military industrial base on par with Russia. Would Ukraine continue to defend itself or would it would prefer to be annexed by Russia?
It's also good to think about what our views would be if Russia attacked Poland, Finland, or any of the Baltic States. Would we oppose those countries defending themselves against Russian attack? If no, at want point would would we find it acceptable for a country to defend itself? Let's say Finland went totally crazy and attacked Russia, would Russia have a right to defend itself, or should Russia give up whatever claims Finland puts on Russia? What are the realistic rules here? I get it, the "let's just have peace" would be a great rule to follow, but it's unfortunately not one that humanity is following at this time.
XorXor
(690 posts)What does brokering a peace look like in your mind? What should Russia give up in order to bring about peace? Could Russia bring peace by withdrawing its forces from Ukraine? In your mind, other than peace and Ukraine retaining sovereignty, what is the worst thing that could happen if Russia left Ukraine? Why would it be a bad thing for Russia to withdraw?
Why shouldn't Russia continue to escalate the war with its continued occupation of Ukraine? Is there a good reason to support Russia's continued escalation by not helping Ukraine contain Russian aggression?
It's interesting when these questions are posed against the aggressor rather than the defender
Martin68
(27,119 posts)trying to annex? And then Russia will build up its forces and invade again. There is no use negotiating with a party that does not negotiate in good faith. Russia had already agreed not to invade Crimea. Ukraine gave up its nuclear arms to achieve that agreement.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082124528/ukraine-russia-putin-invasion
XorXor
(690 posts)It's rare to get much in the way of specifics about how this "brokered peace" would work out. I suspect it's because they know that what it really means is that Ukraine surrenders and Russia keeps whatever it wants until it decides it wants more. It's just uncomfortable for people to explicitly state that's what they intend.
I could be wrong, but I've yet to see a good response from anyone when it comes to the so-called "brokered peace"
NickB79
(20,254 posts)What makes you think his word is worth anything at this point?
Mysterian
(6,190 posts)The genocidal Russians must be defeated.
XorXor
(690 posts)While tank on tank battles do happen, they seem pretty rare as far as I can tell.
Martin68
(27,119 posts)more often by anti-tank weapons rather than in tank battles per se.
XorXor
(690 posts)What anti-tank systems does Ukraine have that would be able to fire these? Other than tanks, are there any other systems that use DU rounds? I have no doubt some tanker at some point will be glad he had these, but I'm not convinced it will make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. I have yet to see any engagements featuring direct conflict between the Challenger II tanks and Russian tanks. I'd suspect this would be the same if the Abrams were already there. It could be possible that they are expecting a collapse of the defensive lines and a shift in the dynamics of the battlefield...or they just need to get them ammunition and that's what's available.
Martin68
(27,119 posts)cannon on the iconic T-34 tank and fires a 21-pound shell out to a distance of 10 miles. The MT-LB-12 is an armored tractor mounting an MT-12 100-millimeter anti-tank gun. Both are used by Ukrainian forces.
XorXor
(690 posts)That's what I am trying to get at. Unless they plan on somehow Frankensteining some stuff together from them, but I'm not sure how well would work.
Martin68
(27,119 posts)uranium munitions can only be fired in modern tanks.
róisín_dubh
(12,233 posts)Martin68
(27,119 posts)declared a war crime in any official international forum of which I'm aware. There is no court case or treaty that has declared its use a war crime. Ukraine is fighting an enemy that has indiscriminately and repeatedly specifically targeted civilian targets such as schools, hospitals, and residential apartments far from the front lines of the war. That is universally considered a war crime.
Elessar Zappa
(16,385 posts)are the ones perpetrated on Ukraine by Putin and his orcs.
Red Mountain
(2,267 posts)we'd sure as hell be using them so why not provide them to the Ukrainians if they want them now?
Kaleva
(40,225 posts)While on Condition III in the Persian Gulf, I had an air mattress on top of the 20mm ammo boxes in the CIWS magazine. That way it was just a a hop, skip and jump to my GQ station if the shit hit the fan
Qutzupalotl
(15,674 posts)If you have the stomach for it, do an image search for depleted uranium babies to see the results of DU in groundwater on developing fetuses. WARNING: not for the squeamish. Kids born without limbs, some without mouths, some with no eyes, no cerebellum you get the idea.
EX500rider
(12,207 posts)https://www.iaea.org/topics/spent-fuel-management/depleted-uranium
BlueWavePsych
(3,319 posts)