Libya: Detainees tortured and denied medical care.

[dipsydoodle]

TRIPOLI/BRUSSELS, JANUARY 26, 2012 – Detainees in the Libyan city of Misrata are being tortured and denied urgent medical care, leading the international medical humanitarian organisation Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders (MSF) to suspend its operations in detention centres in Misrata, MSF announced today.

MSF teams began working in Misrata’s detention centres in August, 2011, to treat war-wounded detainees. Since then, MSF doctors were increasingly confronted with patients who suffered injuries caused by torture during interrogation sessions. The interrogations were held outside the detention centres. In total, MSF treated 115 people who had torture-related wounds and reported all the cases to the relevant authorities in Misrata. Since January, several of the patients returned to interrogation centres have even been tortured again.

“Some officials have sought to exploit and obstruct MSF’s medical work,” said MSF General Director Christopher Stokes. “Patients were brought to us in the middle of interrogation for medical care, in order to make them fit for further interrogation. This is unacceptable. Our role is to provide medical care to war casualties and sick detainees, not to repeatedly treat the same patients between torture sessions.”

MSF medical teams were also asked to treat patients inside the interrogation centres, which was categorically refused by the organisation.

26 Jan 2012 10:24
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/libya-detainees-tortured-and-denied-medical-care

Doctors Without Borders says detainees tortured in Libya : http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/26/world/africa/libya-msf-torture/

Libyan detainees die after torture, says Amnesty International : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16741937

[harmonicon]

1. Is the blood lust satisfied yet?

For all of the people who were cheering on these monstrous "rebels", are you happy with what you've got now? The people doing this torturing were put into a place to carry it out thanks to our taxes funding support for one side of a foreign civil war. The world is not fucking black and white. Just because you don't like someone does not mean that their enemies are good people.

[TomClash]

2. I was thinking the same thing

Where are the Libyan war cheerleaders? Where are all those posters who have never seen war and cheered lustily for it from their computers?

I suppose their job is done.

[denverbill]

3. Yes, let's bring back St Ghadafi.

After all, aside from blowing up a jetliner full of Americans over Scotland, he was a pretty swell guy.

"Reports suggest that a recently discovered mass grave may contain 1,200 victims of a 1996 massacre in Tripoli’s Abu Salim prison. The slaughter was largely covered up by the Libyan government; in fact, many victims’ families were unaware of the deaths for years. The location of the bodies was never revealed."

http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/blog/mass-graves-evidence-libya.html

These 'monstrous' rebels are no better than the monsters who overthrew Mussolini during WWII or the barbarians who killed Nicolae Ceaușescu in Romania. After all if human rights abuses such as torture and murder are committed by some members of a group, the entire group is at fault, unless the group is the US military, in which case it's the work of a few overzealous members. (I'll leave you to find your own links to Abu Ghraib, Haditha, and murdering Afghans for sport)

We should have let Mr Ghadafi and the rebels fight it out on their own. I know after the few monstrous 'rebels' were killed, Ghadafi would have reached out his hand in forgiveness and generosity towards the few wayward souls who opposed him, as dictators always do to people who attempt to overthrow them (e.g., Hitler, Saddam, Stalin).

I agree that not liking Ghadafi doesn't guarantee the rebels will necessarily be saints, but they will have to do a helluva lot worse than this to be worse than Ghadafi.

[atreides1]

4. Wrong is wrong

It's not who is doing it...it's that it's still being done!

But I guess once the rebels have their own mass graves hidden in the desert, then it'll matter!!!

[denverbill]

8. Wrong is wrong, but dismissing a revolution because of reprisals against loyalists is unrealistic.

It's easy to say you would respect the rule of law if your father or brother had been tortured and killed by one of Ghadafi's goons, but I've never heard of a revolution that didn't involve some reprisals, including the American revolution.

Yes, you are right. I WOULD like to wait until they actually prove themselves worse than Ghadafi to condemn them.

[EFerrari]

12. The headless corpse, the mass grave and worrying questions about Libya's rebel army

By Ruth Sherlock, Al-Qawalish

7:00PM BST 20 Jul 2011

CommentsComments

The streaks of blood, smeared along the sides of this impromptu mass grave suggested a rushed operation, a hurried attempt to dispose of the victims.

Who the men were and what happened to them, close to the Libyan rebels' western front line town of Al-Qawalish in the Nafusa Mountains, remains unknown.

But the evidence of a brutal end were clear. One of the corpses had been cleanly decapitated, while the trousers of another had been ripped down to his ankles, a way of humiliating a dead enemy.

The green uniforms were the same as those worn by loyalists fighting for Col. Muammer Gaddafi in Libya's civil war. No one from the rebel side claimed the corpses, or declared their loved ones missing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8650436/The-headless-corpse-the-mass-grave-and-worrying-questions-about-Libyas-rebel-army.html

Rights group finds mass grave in Gadhafi hometown

TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — A human rights groups says it has discovered 53 decomposing bodies, apparently of Moammar Gadhafi loyalists, some of whom may have been executed by revolutionary forces.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch said Monday that the discovery in Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte "seems part of a trend of killings, looting and other abuses committed by anti-Gadhafi fighters who consider themselves above the law."

The group urged Libyan authorities to rein in armed groups.

The latest discovery of the grave came to light as Libya's new leaders declared the country liberated, following a brutal eight-month civil war. The declaration was overshadowed by continued questions about whether Gadhafi was executed after capture last week.

http://news.yahoo.com/rights-group-finds-mass-grave-gadhafi-hometown-091601564.html

[denverbill]

16. The people of Libya seem to be much happier under the new regime than the old.

Last edited Thu Jan 26, 2012, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

"Following the cool reception that the American delegation received in Baghdad in a small and sparsely attended ceremony to mark the end of that war, the U.S. delegation in Libya was received with great warmth."

"The Libyan drivers kept thanking the United States. The atmosphere of appreciation for the U.S. and NATO efforts stood in marked contrast to the cool, if not hostile, reception that Americans feel in Baghdad and Afghanistan these days."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/17/panetta-extends-hand-to-libyas-new-leaders-in-historic-visit/#ixzz1kb3D3hdU


Maybe it's just FoxNews trying to make Obama look good, as usual.

The Haditha killings (also called the Haditha incident or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. All those killed were civilians.[1] It has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of Marines with an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

Are all Americans murderers or only all American soldiers? Or do you only assume the worst about Africans?

[EFerrari]

19. So, is your question about Iraq or about Libya?

Or, are you confusing the two, which would be understandable?

The author of the Fox story you posted is Jennifer Griffin, who had to go on camera to publicly admit misrepresenting events in Libya. http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/03/22/libya-fox-cnn-feud/

Btw, the reporter that broke Haditha was on DemocracyNow! this morning on both his investigation and the results of the criminal investigations. http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/26/iraqis_voice_outrage_as_us_massacre

Finally, I never said American soldiers were murders. And I never assumed anything about Africans, I called the current regime murderous torturers and forgot to add "thugs", which is no assumption at all but merely observation.

[Fool Count]

37. LOL. Of course, they seem to be "much happier". If they didn't they would be detained, tortured and

killed for being "Qaddafi's loyalists". Nobody wants to be tortured and killed by a band of violent thugs high
on hash. I would "seem much happier" too if I were them.

[denverbill]

38. Yes, because the NTC has already become North Korea somehow.

Apparently, they are so afraid they are organizing peaceful protests.

http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=7490

Please provide a link about the violent thugs high on hash since you obviously read that somewhere.

[Fool Count]

40. LOL. So even Benghazis aren't really all that happy after all. I imagine how people in

Bani Walid or Sirte must feel. That anti-popular Quisling NTC government is at the end of its line.
The regime deriving its power from violent criminal gangs of thugs high on hash terrorizing population
won't last without support of some occupying force.

[EFerrari]

5. This is what living with the lesser of two evils results in, rationalizing evil. n/t

[denverbill]

9. I'll take the lesser of two evils any day. Yes and I'll probably rationalize voting for Obama also.

You can wait for Mother Theresa to lead an armed revolt against a dictator.

[EFerrari]

10. Thank you for making my point so clearly.

The lesser of two evils aka the false dilemma aka black and white thinking confines you falsely to two bad choices like "freeing Libya" into the hands of murderous torturers or waiting for Mother Teresa.

[Adsos Letter]

11. +1

[denverbill]

14. Perhaps you would clarify what you think a reasonable third option would be in this case.

I only recall Ghadafi and the rebels fighting. We had a choice: do nothing, support Ghadafi, or support the rebels. The first two options would both lead to Ghadafi remaining in power and killing thousands of more people, 'murderous torturers'-in-waiting though they may have been. To me, that's a dichotomy because you only have two possible outcomes. You can argue we should have tried more diplomacy or something, but I don't see how the result would have been any different. Ghadafi adamantly refused to surrender and repeatedly vowed to fight to the death. Even if, miraculously, we had talked him into surrendering, the same 'murderous torturers' would likely have assumed power.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to characterize the entire new revolution as 'murderous torturers', just as bad as it would be to characterize all Americans as 'murderous torturers' for the acts of the Abu Gharib soldiers. There has been no evidence of torture or murder being orchestrated by the leadership as far as I have heard. And AFAIK, most brutal regimes don't let Doctors Without Borders hang around to investigate their wrongdoings. Maybe they will be much better than Ghadafi ultimately, maybe slightly better, maybe much worse. I think it's way too early to judge that.

[Amonester]

15. I agree 100%, and I don't care being insulted repeatedly...

by any black-and-white unrealistic BS, personally.

They just try to spread the guilt to outsiders.

They don't have anymore power to make it peaceful than I do, although that's what all sane outsiders want.

Violent revolutions aren't picknicks in flower gardens...

[Bacchus4.0]

18. no false dilemma here. Not acting because you don't know what would happen

only leaves the option you don't want, Gadafi slaughtering people.

[EFerrari]

20. Yes, false dilemma. Between bombing Libya and not acting, all the other choices.

Again, thanks for making my point.

[Bacchus4.0]

24. you should stick to arguing with yourself like you do in post 13

make a statement that no-one else said and no one is advocating, and then refute it.

regarding, this post, if there are more than two choices its not a dilemma.

remember though there is the Chavez option. call for peace and do nothing. How that is different from the other do nothing option, maybe you'll explain.

p.s. lol

[EFerrari]

25. False dilemma, in your own words

Not acting because you don't know what would happen only leaves the option you don't want, Gadafi slaughtering people.

[Bacchus4.0]

26. false dilemma in YOUR words

"The lesser of two evils aka the false dilemma aka black and white thinking confines you falsely to two bad choices like "freeing Libya" into the hands of murderous torturers or waiting for Mother Teresa."

Nevermind how utterly stupid that statement is.



Option 1. do nothing

Option 1a. Chavez option. call for peace and still do nothing

Option 1b. Ferrari option. use "diplomacy" and do nothing.


2. support the rebels

3. support Gadafi




option 4 provide by you: wait for Mother Theresa.

option 5. lol


you can provide more options if you like

[EFerrari]

27. I think my work is done here.

Thanks for playing.

[Bacchus4.0]

28. I'm sure you'll be back to defend Gadafi another day n.t

s

[EFerrari]

29. I think you vastly underestimate readers here at DU

who can easily see I never suggested Mother Teresa or using diplomacy just as I never defended Gadaffi.

[Bacchus4.0]

31. right, like I originally suspected, it was the involvement of the US that irks you

its pretty easy to see actually.

[EFerrari]

32. At some point, the shovel handle becomes too short.

[Bacchus4.0]

33. never heard that one before, now I know why the west didn't bother talking with the likes of Gadafi

some people don't make any sense.

[EFerrari]

21. No the Benghazi people, the NTC could not have assumed power without us

or, they would have.

And there is nothing "miraculous" about working the diplomacy side with Gaddafi, as his track record shows.

And, finally, yes, DWB do work in places where there are brutal regimes. That's what they do for a living.

[denverbill]

35. What? THESE Benghazi people? The ones protesting the regime but praising the NTC's leader?

For the second day running, Tuesday, Libya's eastern city of Benghazi witnessed a demonstration made up of around 600 people expressing their discontent with the country's new interim leaders, who, they feel are being too slow to act in affecting changes and for their lack of transparency.

The assurances given by the National Transitional Council and the declaration to make Benghazi the country's economic capital, do not seem to have pacified all the protesters. Even though their numbers shrunk from the first day when tens of thousands took to the streets in central Shajara square and Abdul Nasser Street, one needs to look deeply into their claims.

Disgruntled protesters targeted the NTC, in efforts to pressure the new rulers to come clean about their activities. Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, the head of Libya's National Transitional Council was singled out by around by protesters on Monday for his willingness to forgive those who had fought for the former dictator.

http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=7490

I guess these Benghazi folks are murderous, torturing thugs as well.

[joshcryer]

45. LOL, nice. Of course, people wanting fair representation was spun as bad...

...in the other thread that discussed this.

[countryjake]

50. Interested in current news? Your article is from last year.

The melee at the National Transitional Council's headquarters began after protesters broke through the gates using hand grenades and streamed into the grounds of the headquarters. They banged on the building's doors and demanded officials meet with them.

In a bid to calm tensions, NTC chief Mustafa Abdul Jalil tried to address the crowd from a second-floor window, but protesters began throwing bottles at him.

Protesters then torched Abdul-Jalil's armoured land cruiser and broke into the headquarters itself, smashing windows to get inside and cart off furniture and electronics.

A security official in the building said a team of 50 guards dressed as civilians were trying to calm the protesters.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/21/libyans-transitional-government-headquarters-benghazi



I'd say it may be pretty hard for even any ordinary Libyans to determine who might be "thugs" or not, since "guards dressed as civilians" are out there "calming" these Benghazi protesters. Then we have the ousting of some government council members, following the melee at the NTC headquarters ... accusations flying fast and furious, all across the country, actually:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/world/africa/protests-shake-libyas-interim-government.html


The situation in Libya is nothing to either laugh about or celebrate, as things stand right now. Fear and distrust seem to be the prevailing theme.

[joshcryer]

52. So it's like Venezuela?

[harmonicon]

22. You've very clearly missed my point.

However, I have no problem saying that these people are worse than Gadhafi. Did he kill people? Yes. Did he kill people just because of their race? No.

[denverbill]

30. Ghadafi bussed in foreign mercenaries to crush the rebellion.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/02/how_much_does_it_cost_to_hire_an_african_mercenary.html

The mercenaries in Libya are likely former rebels from regions like Darfur, Chad, and Niger, places where Qaddafi has helped support uprisings over the years. Due to the orderly nature of their arrival, Libyan intelligence probably oversaw the hiring and transport. A typical mercenary would be in his 20s, have no high-school education, and little to no formal military training. He might carry an easy-to-maintain assault rifle like the AK-47. If Qaddafi is toppled, whichever mercenaries haven't been killed will likely truck back to their home countries, where few job prospects are waiting for them.

Qaddafi's emergency influx of international mercenaries underscores the colonel's alienation from his own population. Unlike members of the Libyan army—many of whom are now siding with the protesters—foreign mercenaries presumably won't hesitate to kill citizens. ...

-------------------------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/22/gaddafi-mercenary-force-libya

The claims are hard to pin down but persistent. Ali al-Essawi, the Libyan ambassador to India, who resigned in the wake of the crackdown, told Reuters on Tuesday: "They are from Africa, and speak French and other languages."

He said their presence had prompted some army troops to switch sides to the opposition. "They are Libyans and they cannot see foreigners killing Libyans so they moved beside the people."

In a separate interview, Essawi told al-Jazeera: "People say they are black Africans and they don't speak Arabic. They are doing terrible things, going to houses and killing women and children."

---------------------------

Did the rebels kill people because of their race? Or did they kill hired guns who were primarily black?

[Xithras]

34. The black mercenaries thing has now been extensively debunked.

Libya did have a relatively small number of black Africans in his military forces prior to the uprising. They weren't mercenaries, but were simply foreign born soldiers serving under Libyans in a system identical to the Foreign Legions used by many European countries.

The "busloads of mercenaries" thing was fictionalized media hype, no different than the whole "babies thrown from incubators" thing we used against the Iraqi's. Evil, pro-dictatorship groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have looked closely at the wreckage of the country and have said, pretty bluntly, that it simply didn't happen. Our own western governments no longer cite it as a justification for the intervention either, because there's no proof that it ever happened.

"Mercenaries by the busload? Yeah! I heard about it from my cousin, who heard about it from a friend, who overheard a conversation on a street corner about it! Quick, tell CNN!"

All wars are built on lies. Only the terminally naive think this one was any different.

[denverbill]

36. I searched and couldn't find anything except this on HRW.

Human Rights Watch has not found evidence of killings of Africans in Tripoli or systematic abuse of detainees, but the widespread arbitrary arrests and frequent abuse have created a grave sense of fear among the city’s African population, Human Rights Watch said.

and this

In Tripoli Human Rights Watch has found evidence that the Gaddafi government recruited and used African mercenaries from Chad, Sudan, and other countries. Human Rights Watch researchers located a large base used by hundreds of mercenaries from other African countries since February 2011, who were recruited and commanded by the 32nd Brigade of Khamis Gaddafi.

“The NTC has legitimate concerns about unlawful mercenaries and violent activity, but it can’t simply arrest dark-skinned men just in case they think they might be mercenaries,” said Whitson. “African migrants have worked in Libya for many years, often carrying out the most unpleasant jobs, and this is no way to treat those who stayed put during the uprising.”

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/04/libya-stop-arbitrary-arrests-black-africans

They seem to be saying pretty bluntly that it DID happen. Did Human Rights Watch debunk themselves somewhere else on their website? Or can you point me to an article at either place that debunks it? I've got a former Libyan ambassador and HRW themselves saying it happened.

[EFerrari]

42. What you have there says that there were arbitrary arrests of black migrants and frequent abuse

of the same in custody. Plus, more information on the abuse of black African detainees has come out since September.

If you care to look, you will find that the rumor of thousands of black mercenaries was in fact debunked and also, you'll find a lot of stories of black migrant workers who were accused of being mercenaries and who were systematically persecuted, abused and even executed by the rebels. The American black press was rightfully buzzing about this while it was happening.

[denverbill]

57. If I care to look?

You and Xithras are the ones claiming this has been debunked. Unlike you two, I DID look at HRW and found an article which completely contradicted Xithras. Neither or you provided any links or proof whatsoever.

Feel free to provide a link if you can find one that debunks this 'rumor'.

If you care to re-read the article I posted, it stated flatly that HRW didn't find any evidence of killings or systematic abuse. It stated that specifically right before the line you quoted.

[EFerrari]

58. Your article is not current. And yes, I'm going to let you do your own search.

You might try The Black Agenda Report, iirc, they run a number of articles on the violence against black migrant workers in Libya. There was another confirmed report about the systematic rape of black women living in the migrant camps by the rebels in charge of one area. This was protested to Susan Rice who herself circulated the false rumor of rape being used by Gadaffi and then, who did nothing to protect the black women migrants from real rape.

If I had bookmarks to share with you, I would but I dumped them at some point after posting those stories when they came up and after rehashing them a number of times. Maybe someone else saved them. I'm not even sure how to find those threads any more.

[EFerrari]

59. Here are some links I found on this topic.

HRW: no evidence of mercenaries being used in Eastern Libya from April
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x933258

Libya's spectacular revolution being disgraced by racism (rebels killing black Africans) from Aug, with material from The Guardian on the slippage between "mercenaries" and black Africans

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/stockholmer/36

Good compilation by sabrina1 from May

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1196043&mesg_id=1196756

On the round up of black migrant workers from Sept

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1861390&mesg_id=1861390

On the targeting and killing of black migrants from Aug

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4979561&mesg_id=4979561

Migrants suffer in Tripoli camps from Sept
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1876122&mesg_id=1877755

Accusations of torture from October
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/http/www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/www.leftyblogs.com/cgi-bin/www//seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5012392

Reports of the rape of black female migrants from Sept
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4987677&mesg_id=4987677

As you can see, there is a lot of material. I'm finding it searching at DU2. There's more but to be truthful, I have tendonitis problem today.

[denverbill]

60. OK, here's an article from Black Agenda Report.

All of the good that Muammar Qaddafi did for his people, and the immeasurable contribution he made to the oppressed peoples of the world is catalogued everywhere for those who have eyes to see. NATO’s war crimes are also catalogued – they went viral, so even in the absence of a court where NATO and their mercenaries can be tried, millions of people worldwide watched, at their computers and TV screens, the horrific war crimes that unfolded in Sirte and elsewhere in Libya. The verdicts are in. The question is what can be done about it?

The world was quite literally watching and still can watch, anytime they care to google the litany of obscene crimes committed, when a coalition of the most powerful nations on this earth, backed up by the vast majority of Arab and African misleaders, deployed the most sophisticated arsenal of weaponry in the history of the world against a small bastion of African resistance. In the now famous cities of Sirte and Bani Walid, Colonel Muammar Abu Minyar al-Qaddafi led his people in a courageous battle which lasted for months. The battles of Sirte and Bani Walid have surely earned their place in the annals of African history.
-----
The murder of Muammar Qaddafi plunged us into despair. We mourned his death as sons mourn their father - he called us his sons and we responded as such because we understood his sincerity.

Those who worked with Qaddafi can testify that the Brother Leader’s efforts were motivated by a strong and uncompromising faith in God, his deep love for humanity and a sincere desire to assist all those engaged in the struggle to end injustice and oppression. If anyone epitomized Che’s famous quote, it was our brother: “Revolutionaries are first human beings, and at the risk of sounding utterly ridiculous, revolution is based upon supreme feelings of love.”
-----
http://blackagendareport.com/ideological_and_ethnic_cleansing_in_libya

I'm curious. Do you feel the same about Qaddafi as the author of this article? If so, that explains quite a bit. The author, Glen Ford, appears to have posted about half the stories about Libya at BAR and he appears to be rather fond of Qaddafi.

[EFerrari]

61. I now regret the minutes i wasted finding links for you.

I won't make that mistake again.

[Bacchus4.0]

64. yeah, you should be ashamed for citing that garbage

lol

[EFerrari]

66. You didn't even bother to read the links I posted, which were all from DU

to mainstream sources.

Par for your course.

[denverbill]

65. I was posting to you before I saw your links.

Before you posted your links, you said you didn't have any links and I should go do my own research and look at BAR. I did and posted what I found.

The articles you posted about the lack of evidence of mercenaries were from March and April. Specifically,the HRW article was from April. Mine was from September stating the DID find evidence of mercenaries. From Human Rights Watch. Stating, specifically, they DID find evidence of a large military base.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/04/libya-stop-arbitrary-arrests-black-africans

In Tripoli Human Rights Watch has found evidence that the Gaddafi government recruited and used African mercenaries from Chad, Sudan, and other countries. Human Rights Watch researchers located a large base used by hundreds of mercenaries from other African countries since February 2011, who were recruited and commanded by the 32nd Brigade of Khamis Gaddafi.
...
This isn't just me claiming something. It's Human Rights Watch stating what they found in September. Can we at least agree that there were mercenaries there or do you still think that has been debunked?

Elizabeth I know as a long-time DU'er I probably agree with you on 90% of any issues out there. You clearly think the Libya war was the wrong decision, I still think it was the right one. Maybe I'll be proven wrong if it turns out the rebels are as bad as you seem to think they are. I hope I am right and instead of a dictator, Libya will be one Arab nation that actually is grateful to and likes America for helping them oust their dictator.

Either way, keep fighting the fight. You're a good DU'er .

[EFerrari]

67. I have to apologise to you for my rudeness.

I'm having unmediated pain in my right hand, and I'm very right handed. It makes searches difficult and me very grumpy. I'll try to do better going forward. I'm sorry.

This is from the HRW World Report 2012

"When the Gaddafi government retreated from the east, tens of thousands of sub-Saharan African foreign workers came under threat of violence and arbitrary arrest, forcing thousands to flee. These migrants, along with dark-skinned Libyans, were widely accused without evidence of having fought as mercenaries for Gaddafi, although mercenaries from some countries did come to fight."

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-libya

So, imo, there were mercenaries in Libya but their number was vastly over-estimated and in fact, purposely exaggerated in the early days of the conflict. Trying to find links for you today, I ran across threads at DU2 that said "OMG OMG OMG, it's true! Mercenaries are kicking down doors in Benghazi and raping women."

Which turned out not to be true.

There were a lot of these false reports. They were catapulted all over Twitter, too. And for the first time, I began to take seriously the Pentagon's use of social networks to shape public opinion. That's a different topic, but I have to say, the difference between the tweets out of Egypt and what passed for tweets from Libyans and their supporters was amazing. Btw, the use of Twitter in Libya before the uprising was too small to be measured so, it was a little odd to see people at DU using Twitter as a signficant source of information.

In any case, it's too soon to know about Libya, again imho. I hope this ordeal will turn out well for them but I fear that it won't. My interest, as always, isn't to attack the president or our country or the West but, to try to figure out what is happening.

[denverbill]

69. You don't have to apologize.

One of my worst habits on DU is when I get into a discussion with someone and we have a disagreement, I tend to immediately think they are disruptors or freepers. I was beginning to wonder about you, then someone said something in a reply to me indicating you were a she and I realized I didn't even realize you were female. I checked your profile and saw the 150K+ posts in almost 10 years and was feeling a bit stupid for having thought that about you. And I don't have hand pain to blame . I think it was different in the old days when there were way fewer posters and I got to recognize a lot of names. You would think I would have remembered yours with all those posts, but my memory ain't what it used to be. I should try to check profiles before replying to anyone I disagree with.

I can't say I disagree with much in your last post. It's impossible for us here to know the whole truth about what's happening there, and I'm sure it was the same even in Libya. I'm sure rumors fly in situations like that. If someone sees a black soldier shooting someone, it soon becomes a massacre by dozens. It's a bad situation now that all dark-skinned people are being treated like possible mercenaries, but to a degree, I can how it could happen.

I also agree it's way to soon to know about Libya. I'm not exactly an Obama sycophant, but I did agree with him on this call. Maybe it's all an oil company plot or there was some other stuff going on I don't know about, but when I see news reports from Libya, the people do frequently seem quite pleased with America. The only time I saw that in Iraq was when Ahmad Chalabi's men were bussed in to celebrate Saddam's statue being torn down.

[EFerrari]

70. For the record, the deal with Glen Ford and the BAR

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2012, 04:04 AM - Edit history (1)

is that he is a pan-Africanist and his opinion pieces reflect that. But the news run downs he put out during the uprising were among the earliest that reported what was happening to black migrants in Libya. Ford can be pretty startling if you don't know where he's coming from, why or where he's headed. lol

[Bacchus4.0]

63. I wonder why she provided you with a link to a propaganda piece n/t

s

[EFerrari]

68. Had you read the thread, you'd see I didn't.

Oops.

[Bacchus4.0]

62. type in gadafi african mercenaries in google and there are numerous links

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=gaddafi+african+mercenaries&gbv=2&oq=ghadafi+african+merce&aq=0l&aqi=g-l1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=5297l14438l0l16501l21l19l0l0l0l0l500l4688l2-5.4.3.1l13l0

[joshcryer]

44. "I have no problem saying these people are worse than Gaddafi."

Some people killed because of race, some people participate in torture. Those people do not represent all Libyans as a whole nor do they represent Libyan society or culture. They are a minority of uncontrolled individuals who will be reigned in in time.

Venezuela is still more dangerous than Libya. Are we going to then chastise all Venezuelan's for the inability of Chavez' government to reign in the violence?

[harmonicon]

54. I'll pretend for a second that you're being serious here.

Of course the people involved in these atrocities are not representative of Libyans as a whole, however, they were put in place to do this because of their "revolution" which the US backed. They will not be "reigned in" unless legitimate government is re-established, and that won't happen with something like the NTC - they're the same ones doing the torture.

Venezuela has nothing to do with this. Sure, the crime rate is high there, but there aren't people being picked up by the government, tortured, treated for their wounds from that torture only to be tortured again. Socialists and blacks are not being rounded up and executed there. You can't chastise their government for not "reigning in the violence", because their government isn't carrying out the violence, unlike in Libya.

[joshcryer]

56. Venezuela is the second most deadly country on the entire planet.

Of course Venezuela has something to do with this, as Chavez came out in support of Gaddafi and against any sort of intervention.

The NTC, the Libyan government, has not "picked up" anyone. The people picked up have been chosen by the rebels in general, to blame the NTC (the almost non-existant Libyan government) is a misnomer at best. You first have to show how the factionalized groups in Libya are controlled by the NTC, which they most certainly are not. It will take time for the NTC and the future government of Libya to provide the security necessary to reign in the militias. It's amusing that you give a pass to Venezuela for the second highest crime rate in the world, while putting so much focus on rather mediocre and expected acts by factionalized groups in Libya.

It just shows the disconnect and the overt anti-Libyan attitude that people share, imho. It will take time but the NTC, and the eventual government of Libya will reign in the violence. Do not equate the violence to "NTC sponsored" because it automatically reveals your biases. Neither the NTC or the Venezuelan government advocate the violence that is happening in both countries.

Be fair.

[joshcryer]

46. Correct, this is usually the outcome of civil war.

Even the US had its atrocities after the civil war. We were hanging black people well into the 1900s. And we pretend to have moral superiority criticizing people who clearly have to work out their problems themselves without interference from the outside.

[cstanleytech]

55. You forgot to add the obligatory "Its all the fault of the west because they were a utopia"

[Bacchus4.0]

6. and it would have been so much better to allow Gadaffi to conintue the slaughter n/t

s

[EFerrari]

13. When Gadaffi fought armed rebels it was slaughter but when the rebels kill loyalists

it's just the way of war. No double standard there at all.

[Bacchus4.0]

17. you said it, I didn't. not acting to prevent the slaughter of people because you are uncertain

how the rebels would behave once in power leaves just one option, allowing Gadafi to keep slaughtering people. I continue to take a wait and see approach and agree with the poster that Mother Theresa and her Army of Nun simply were not available to lead the revolution.

you seem much more comfortable with the evil you know in power, Gadafi. anything besides a perfect government is worse than Gadafi.

although, perhaps you simply do not like the fact that the US was the main behind the scenes player in the alliance to remove Gadafi. you pretty much complain and are miserable all the time.

[EFerrari]

23. LOL

[joshcryer]

48. What's interesting to me is how, on one hand rebel atrocities are parroted as horrific...

...yet, Gaddafi's same atrocities are completely left out, ignored, downplayed.

You have rebels attacking a city over racial issues, burning their houses, they even flee, that's horrific, undefensible (I never once defended it).

You have Gaddafi ordering migrants onto boats, again, over racial issues, and the boats sink killing hundreds, not a peep from these same people.

I covered Libya extensively and I know intimately how those who are against Libya feel, and you are correct, it is primarily an "anti-imperialist" and "anti-American" basis for which their critique flows. There's no actual caring for the people of Libya, there's no attempt to be impartial, and judge the facts on both sides (I spent a year detailing both sides of the conflict).

As soon as Gaddafi decided to crush the rebellion, as soon as he sent a convoy, by his own words, to clean Libya of the 'rats' "ally by ally, house by house, street by street," and as soon as the Libyan people in those areas who were affected asked for help, they were thrown under the bus, the people "following it with such caring" immediately changed sides, it was no longer about the Libyan people, it was about being anti-American, anti-west, anti-imperialist.

I don't say that it would've led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, but it would've been destabilizing to the entire middle east. Put two million Libyan's in Egypt wanting to meet out revenge on Gaddafi with an increasingly Islamist government there and in Tunisia. This was going to end only one way, with a lot of people dead. The way it ended here, however, was less bloody than Castro's "internationalist" forays in Angola. And 5 years sooner.

[Johnson20]

7. Yessirre Bob! Well said n/t

[joshcryer]

43. Doubtful, Gaddafi's repression went on for decades, it will take time for civil society...

...to prosper.

[Solly Mack]

39. ...

Nothing but garbage...those who torture.

[PurityOfEssence]

41. And still the pom-pom squad stays mute...

There's always been a bit of a sickening self-congratulatory smugness to certain of the interventionists, but the way inconvenient occurrences rate no response is telling; somehow ya just know they're reading this thread...

We were also fed a constant stream of how deeply moral, secular and heroic the insurgents were specifically in Misrata, so tales of the blatant racist ethnic cleansing of Tawerga is a bit of a blot on their escutcheon. Somehow no real mention of this is made by the pristine war-proponents either...

[joshcryer]

47. It wouldn't be an anti-Libya thread without a footnote about the...

..."sickening self-congratulatory smugness to certain of the interventionists."

No one said that the insurgents in Misrata were "deeply moral, secular and heroic." But making stuff up is part for the course, as is testament to the responses in this thread which take things out of context, and neglect any criticism of the former regime. In fact, "these people are worse than Gaddafi."

[dipsydoodle]

49. It wasn't posted as an anti Libya thread

I got an email from Médecins Sans Frontières (UK) [[e-mail]] , c. midday GMT, headed MSF suspends work in Misrata prisons and thinking it would be of interested I searched news , found the first link and then added two more.

[joshcryer]

51. Oh, I know, but it became one.

[PurityOfEssence]

71. Ludicrous bullshit

There were no rebuttals made against those who were portraying the rebels in Misrata as Islamists? None? Not even one?

There was no heart-string tugging against those of us who felt that an illegal violation of national sovereignty was a horrible step? There was no continual snottiness that those of us who felt that the depth of the "popular" support for regime change was nowhere near a threshold of "popular support"? There was no pissy, self-indulgent self-aggrandizement by siding with the insurgents? That's ridiculous.

Those of us who were advocates of letting a domestic situation resolve itself domestically were portrayed as blockheads or thugs, while those who advocated illegal, reckless bloodletting were somehow portraying themselves as the sweet, innocent flower-children of beauty, and this nasty characterization continued throughout and does until the present day. The blood is on the interventionists' hands. Somewhere around 100 people were killed in various protests before we intervened, and virtually none of them were in non-violent demonstrations.

Murdoch employee Alex Crawford cried huge salt tears for the innocents gunned down in Zahwiah, but the footage shows a crowd approaching a force of military vehicles with some of the "innocent" crowd carrying various small arms. When turned back, we see a three-man crew retreating with a heavy machine gun. They were attacking a military roadblock, not singing folk-songs and putting daisies in the muzzles of guns. It was largely a civilian protest, but to those armed in their midst, these protesters were literally human shields. She goes on to lament the young man taking up a rocket-propelled grenade launcher to go after the vehicles. Somehow these are "civilians".

Again, and for a consistently tiresome time, I and many other opponents to this bullshit oil-grab and vengeance operation are not huge fans of Qaddafi.

There was no equivocation of anyone opposed to the intervention being "Qaddafi-lovers"?

Much as I've been very vocal on the issue of this being a flagrant sham to cover the ousting of someone who wasn't friendly to our rapacious imperial desires, I've been quite consistent with agreeing with the faults of the late Colonel.

It's the interventionists' fault now. The deaths are on their heads. Maybe it'll sort itself out pleasantly, but if not, there's no more morality to the cocksure recklessness of the interventionists than there was with our morally ugly invasion of Iraq. None. None, period.

Hey, at least the oil's flowing again, huh?

[joshcryer]

73. Not by me there wasn't.

My position was "So what if they are?" At most I pointed out how Libyan's consider themselves moderate Muslims, and how Misrata, the western mountains, and the east showed a diverse type of opposition to the government. Egypt had Islamists, Tunisia had Islamists. Both of those countries' elections had Islamist victories. Do we now throw Egypt and Tunisia under the bus?

The shallowness of the statement "the deaths are on their heads" is really ridiculous. One could make a similar statement about Venezuela's fall into despotism, being the second most deadly place to live on the planet. Should I then parrot some shallow, pointless rhetoric that "The deaths of Venezuelans are on the hands of Chavez supporters" and the like? No, that's absurd. It's out of the hands of Chavez just as the militia's actions are out of the hands of the NTC. Will either country get better? We'll have to see. But to throw any country under the bus because of this is horrifically shallow. South Africa is having the same sorts of issues.

It happens every time there is a remotely negative story out of Libya. Everyone jumps on board, bashes the "interventionists" (I call it more like self-determiniationists), praises the former regime in some way (some even come and talk about how it had a high living standard, repression, who cares), and has shown a regular failure to criticize the former government in any way, tiptoeing around the issues when they're brought up. Meanwhile the "interventionists" have consistently condemned all acts of violence by both sides throughout the conflict. And people like me, who cheer for Libyan self-determination, praise it when people raze a government office and protest for fair representation, because that's what revolution is about. You'll note those protesters didn't get mowed down like Gaddafi was doing, and yep, some of them were armed with weapons.

I find the "anti-interventionist" rhetoric morally corrupt, particularly when it comes with high insults and completely exaggerated terms.

[PurityOfEssence]

77. self-determination = intervention

Self-determination is what people do without MASSIVE foreign intervention.

You have consistently been for rushing to the aid of a small faction requesting foreign help, while depicting them as the voice of the people and diminishing the effect of the outsiders.

This is absolute poppycock.

[joshcryer]

78. "Small faction requesting foreign help."

Just shows your disconnect. Being unarmed, untrained, and unempowered does not make you a "small faction." Gaddafi bommbed the weapons depots for a reason, he didn't want those people to be armed, or armed, and certainly not empowered. Misrata shows the way, a group of people who stood despite all the odds, Russian provided tanks, west provided arms, and yet they stood, they fought for months without outside assistance. Benghazi and the western towns would've went the same way. Yes, the probably would've lost without outside intervention, but the civil war would've continued to this day.

I only accepted an early end to the atrocities. That is all. Otherwise I believe, fervently, that it would've continued to this day, and those who supported the Libyan revolutionaries then would still be supporting them now.

Amazing how a little outside help changes ones convictions, ones approach, ones compassion, is it not?

The outside has no significant voice, as is testified by the continual push against outside interference in their politics and in their culture.

It truly is poppycock, how people can so easily show a lack of empathy and caring for a peoples who express their self-determination.

It took Castro almost a half a decade to achieve his goals, it will take the Libyan people half that, again. And they will, of course, be slandered by the uncaring, they will be cut down by those with no empathy, but they will not falter in the eventual outcome. I have no doubts about that.

I've been right so far, and I see no reason to be wrong in the future.

[ellisonz]

53. Yessir I read...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. The moral of this story: Don't intervene militarily if you can't agree

on what is happening.

Oh, and have you noticed how so many of the countries our government is bound and determined to "save from tyranny" all have lots and lots of oil?

If a non-oil producing country has a dictator and a dissident movement (cf. Myanmar, Ukraine), there's no intervention.

[dipsydoodle]

74. Libya prisoners make new torture allegations

The BBC has been told by inmates at a jail in Misrata that they were beaten, whipped and given electric shocks.

The head of the city's military council has dismissed the allegations.

United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay has called on Libya's transitional government to take full control of all prisons.

>

Earlier this week the medical charity Medecins Sans Frontieres said it was suspending its work in one Misrata detention centre because of an alarming rise in torture cases.

28 January 2012 Last updated at 07:08 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16771372

[Amonester]

75. It's way past time the UN must find a way to coerce the NTC on this.

Just asking torturers if they torture or not is unacceptable.

The UN is way too complacent on the weaselling of the NTC.

[EFerrari]

76. The word has been "complicit" from day 1. n/t