Police: Slain Baby, Mom Victims of Random Crime

[geek tragedy]

Source: ABC News/AP

Almost a week after a baby was fatally shot in his stroller, police in coastal Georgia are saying for the first time they believe the child and his mother were victims of a random crime.

Glynn County Police Chief Matt Doering told reporters Wednesday investigators are looking into the possibility that the killing of 13-month-old Antonio Santiago in Brunswick was gang-related. But Doering says evidence police have gathered so far doesn't support gang-related charges.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-slain-baby-mom-victims-random-crime-18823486

---

In other words, they've concluded that it happened pretty much as the mother said it did. It also means she's been cleared of suspicion, contra speculation to the contrary.

[premium]

1. To all the naysayers who were questioning if the mother was complicit in this heinous crime,

I hope that this statement by the police puts all this nonsense to rest.

[geek tragedy]

4. We can hope so. I predict not many will acknowledge

their wrongfulness.

[premium]

6. I was sickened by some of the comments I read.

This poor woman was the victim of a particularly horrible crime and the comments alluding to her complicity was way over the top in my opinion.
Glad you posted this.

[geek tragedy]

7. It was the full range of middle class snobbery towards

those who don't fit the image of the tidy human beings one sees in sitcoms.

She was mentally ill, her husband was lashing out in grief, her daughter she lost custody of had unkind things to say, she didn't grieve properly, she needed a life insurance check to pay for the funeral, her behavior didn't feel right, why did she live in that neighborhood, etc etc etc.

Not terribly different than those who try to 'slut-shame' rape victims.

[mainer]

14. And of course it's not snobbery to assume black boys are guilty.

Snobbery against poor white women is horrible but it's OK against black defendants?

[geek tragedy]

18. Oh take that race bullshit out of this.

They got arrested after their own family turned them in.

Unless you're going to argue the police were racist because they arrested these kids.

[mainer]

40. A snob who understands this much:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[chillfactor]

49. which has nothing to do with this situation

the police were on the boys from the get-go.....the fact that you cannot let this go says a great deal about you as a person....you would be much better off just shutting up...

[mainer]

54. "Shutting up" is what you'd like everyone to do

who has any concern about the possibility of a miscarriage of justice.

I absolutely agree with you that the correct suspects have been arrested.
I absolutely agree with you that the police have done their job.

But the fact that no one is allowed to ask questions here is appalling to me. When did this become the "shut up and let the police do their work" board?

When did this board become the "trust authority" board? Or "trust the press" for that matter?

Why are you all so outraged that questions have been asked, questions borne of experience with a justice system that has gone awry with so many innocents in the past? The fact that I have seen miscarriage of justice with other suspects has colored my vision of how justice works. It means we must be ever vigilant when it comes to questioning whether the right people have been arrested.

If you condemn my right to be vigilant and to voice my fears, then this is clearly no longer Democratic Underground.

[geek tragedy]

57. It was not reasonable to point the finger at the mother.

It never was reasonable. There was never a single piece of evidence that was remotely probative of her guilt.

[chillfactor]

60. DU is one of the best blogs around

the point here is that you have no critical-thinking skills, no reasoning power, and no good old common sense.....you smear.....you do not discuss....and the fact that you cannot let this go but continue to dig yourself into a deeper hole shows you also lack intelligence

[mainer]

61. Please go back and see my posts on this subject

They have always been about evidence, about statistics, and about probabilities.

I never once said SHE DID IT. I only pointed out, "this part of the story is inconsistent." And "this is the unreliability of witness IDs." And "this is what percentage of arrested suspects turn out to be innocent based on DNA evidence."

Common sense is a matter of what we have seen in our experience ... and my experience (and the numbers back me up) is that the number one killer of murdered children is their own parents.

Which means that whenever a child is murdered, it is logical to take a look at the parents.

[geek tragedy]

63. It's not rational to suggest the mother did it

after the cops arrested someone else for the crime.

She was SHOT TWICE herself.

[chillfactor]

65. how far are you going to go to dig yourself further into a hole....

yes..parents do kill their children..the point is you were accusing the mother BEFORE any facts were in and you do not have the guts to admit it.....

[mainer]

66. Where? Where did I accuse the mother?

Interesting how quick you are to accuse me of doing things you think I did.

[Kelvin Mace]

111. I am a big suppertor of the project

and highly suspicious of any police claims about anything.

At the moment, the evidence seems to point to the boys as the killers. I refrain from final judgement until all the evidence is in, and we review police conduct.

[mainer]

117. Ironically, had the mother been arrested, I would have asked questions too

I have no emotional involvement in the outcome of this case, only in seeing justice done. Had the mother been arrested, I would still be picking apart the facts, asking questions, wondering if the right person was in jail. I would have wondered if she was a victim of police incompetence. It has nothing to do whether the arrestee is male, female, black or white. It's all about who is in jail and does he/she belong there? That's all I want to know.

And I probably would have been just as angrily attacked here, but by the other side.

Sometimes, coming here and just asking questions gets you into trouble!

[Art_from_Ark]

125. Sometimes stating facts gets one into trouble

I've been put on Ignore twice merely for trying to explain about the situation here in Japan

[mainer]

132. I fear too many here have not outgrown name-calling

and they're unable to have a conversation about controversial topics without going ballistic.

[Bacchus4.0]

71. the boys are guilty aren't they? n/t

s

[mainer]

86. These ones appear to be.

I was pointing out that it's wrong to assume that "black boys" and guilt always go together.

[geek tragedy]

88. Was that a point of contention here? nt

[mainer]

89. Yes. When i was called a bigot against white women.

And I questioned whether bigotry didn't also apply against black boys.

[geek tragedy]

91. The people citing Susan Smith were engaging in prejudiced,

race-based analysis.

[mainer]

93. I never brought up Susan Smith.

Why am I the one being called a bigot?

Should I attack you for things that other people said?

[geek tragedy]

94. You are the one who pointlessly injected race into

this discussion.

You wrote

And of course it's not snobbery to assume black boys are guilty.

One plays that card at one's own peril.

[Kelvin Mace]

110. The evidence as presented

points toward these boys. If exculpatory evidence arises, I am sure folks will be happy to consider it.

As to race, this could just as easily been white teens killing a white baby in some states I know.

[Kelvin Mace]

109. I thought I was on Free Republic for a moment

I do not know what these people's problem is, but I hope they get help.

[bench scientist]

2. thanks for posting this geek

[riqster]

3. Eagerly awaiting the apologies from those who said otherwise...

[geek tragedy]

5. I predict they will respond with

"we were just asking questions" which translates into honest language as "we only used sleazy innuendo because we didn't have the guts to outright say it."

[riqster]

8. Yep. Wimps, the lot of them.

I posted something similar earlier today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022574259

[mainer]

67. So I do respond here and agree with you that right people were arrested

And I'm called a bigot, stupid, etc., etc. Even though I never once actually accused the mother of doing it.

No wonder no one wants to come onto this thread and "apologize" to any of you.

[riqster]

73. A rule in education (and show biz, etc.)

"If the audience doesn't understand you, it's your fault".

Your posts (and Cali's) were widely viewed as victim-blaming, among other things. That perception is not invalid: in communication, the sender and receiver are both involved and the perceptions of both parties must be taken into account.

If you have been misunderstood, then apologize for your part in the confusion and re-state your point incorporating your new knowledge of how your statements have been understood by your audience.

If you have not been misunderstood, then your audience has been correct in their understanding and there is nothing you can say that will change their minds, and they most likely won't be changing yours.

[mainer]

85. I've restated it about three times on this thread

THE RIGHT PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED. The new evidence - assuming the gun in the pond is the murder weapon -- is that the boys are guilty.

I could say it a thousand times, and I'll still be called a bigot and stupid and a jerk and a coward (for not admitting what I JUST admitted!) How many times should I say it until it counts as an admission that I was mistaken in wondering about the mother's involvement?

You may notice that I haven't called anyone names; instead, the schoolyard name-calling has all been directed at me. I've tried to maintain at least a modicum of civility.

You're right about this audience. This one is going to throw rocks at whoever has the temerity to step onstage and try to have a conversation about why all this happened. I don't think it's possible to have that conversation here.

And btw, I stated my relief at the physical evidence YESTERDAY:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=435654

[AnotherMcIntosh]

102. A pond can hold more than one gun. They are testing the one that they found to verify whether it is

"the" gun.

[PolitFreak]

70. I outright said it

And, contrary to your claim, the linked item says nothing about the mother being cleared of suspicion.

[premium]

74. Gonna stick with that?

It's pretty obvious at this point that the police have ruled her out as a suspect.
You were, and still are, wrong about the mother being in any way involved.
And, if she were involved, those boys would've rolled over on her already.

[geek tragedy]

75. Notice the post count.

This person is under control while on patrol and taking a stroll.

[premium]

76. Good one.

[riqster]

79. Extra points for rhyming!

[PolitFreak]

82. Are points awarded for sucking up?

If so, you win big!

[riqster]

100. He deserves the points

[PolitFreak]

80. Great way of quashing opinions you don't agree with, ain't it?

[geek tragedy]

81. Your entire posting history her seems to consist of falsely accusing

a crime victim of killing her baby.

Res ipsa loquitur.

[PolitFreak]

83. Entire?

Better check again, gt.

[geek tragedy]

87. My mistake: the single topic in which you've

dedicated that vast majority of your efforts here has been to falsely accuse a crime victim of murdering her baby.

[PolitFreak]

90. 32nd post

19 unrelated to topic.

[geek tragedy]

92. But your false accusation directed against

a horribly traumatized crime victim has been your real passion here.

[PolitFreak]

97. In Europe, my ancestors were to blame for everything

Crop failure, infant mortality, The Plague, pick your poison. So you will kindly excuse me if I'm somewhat skeptical of this Fine Upstanding Gentile White Mommy.

[geek tragedy]

98. Hiding behind someone else's victimization to justify

your own hatred and prejudices and false accusations.

How charming.

"Gentile White Mommy"

Good gawd, people like you are why the Internet sucks.

[PolitFreak]

99. Yeah

The poor, oppressed white Christians! Will they ever catch a break?

Don't bother responding, as I'm putting you on Ignore, ant.

[geek tragedy]

101. Hilarious, you falsely accuse a woman of a crime

and then cite her race and religion as reasons for lying about her, then act as if you're the victim.

Troll.

[RZM]

107. Indeed

Textbook trolling.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

127. Agreed. But here's what the jury said:

Troll dedicates many of his 39 posts to agitating animosity against a mother who lost her child in a random criminal act (according to the police), then hatefully refers to her race and religion as reasons for agitating animosity towards her, then acts as though he is a victim when his over-the-top views are rejected. His excuse, "In Europe, my ancestors were to blame for everything ... So you will kindly excuse me ..." suggests that he is Jewish but that may not even be true.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Mar 28, 2013, 01:14 AM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ugh - this whole thing is so ugly. I wish everyone would stop judging before all the facts are out. That said, I'm voting to hide because...the post seems a bit bigotted.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: An unpopular opinion, perhaps, but not hide-worthy.

[Sheldon Cooper]

123. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Wed Mar 27, 2013, 06:52 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Notice the post count.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=436693

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"troll ... troll ... troll"

GT is continually going over the top. He is a 1st class trouble maker on DU and makes DU suck. Please hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 27, 2013, 06:56 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I would love to appease your troll claim but there just isn't anything in this particular post that is hide-worthy.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The member to whom he refers has 38 posts and is dishing out the flames in that thread like a veteran troll, or some smart-assed 15 year old. The comment is correct and warranted. Voting to leave. And it's an easy vote.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think it's an appropriate call-out in this case.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was #1 or #4.

[Bonobo]

126. I didn't follow the story or make any comments about it, but...

It seems to me that if she HAD done it, SOME PEOPLE would undoubtedly have brought up post-partum depression.

I could be wrong in that assumption, but I really don't think so.

Not really a matter of the facts of the case, but as long as we are discussing the issue of preconceptions, I felt it should be added that many people have their own. Not pointing fingers of course...

[mainer]

9. Here's what I posted over on GD on this subject

about why people might wonder about the mother's involvement. (Why should people apologize for simply asking questions? Is it now against the rules for us to question authority? Were we wrong to question Bush Cheney about WMDs? Or the Florida police for ignoring the death of Trayvon Martin?)


There are accusations being tossed back and forth on this board about the "ghoulishness" of suspecting the mother. How could people be entertaining such monstrous thoughts about a poverty-stricken mom? What's WRONG with people?

I'll tell you why DUers might have qualms about the mother. Statistics, pure and simple.

For those who think it's wrong wrong wrong to EVER suspect a parent in the death of a child, I present the cold, hard fact:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/16/mother-kill-children-society-_n_850094.html

The primary person most likely to be responsible for the murder of a young child is ... the parent. In this case, since the mother was the one present at the time of the murder, naturally it's the mother one focuses on.

Now consider the mother's explanation: that a stranger walked up and deliberately shot an infant in the face. How often does THAT happen? Compared to parents killing a child, which is estimated to happen once every three days in America?

So it is merely logical to ponder the truth behind this story. It is not ghoulish; it is the fact that the purported act of a stranger killing a child in a stroller is so rare and so horrifying that we have trouble believing it. Even though it now appears it may likely be true.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2573844

[geek tragedy]

10. It was reasonable within a few hours to hold that view.

It was CLEAR within 24 hours that she didn't shoot the baby herself. The police chased down and arrested the triggermen.

Those who were clinging to the "she might have been behind it" were doing so to preserve their own egos by doubling down on a discredited argument, and engaging in pathological victim-blaming akin to those who 'slut-shame' underage rape victims.

The theories that she hired these kids to shoot her and her baby in broad daylight were as idiotic as they were repulsive.

So, no, you were wrong, wrong,wrong, wrong as soon as it became clear she didn't pull the trigger. Factually and morally.

[mainer]

12. It only became clear she didn't pull the trigger when GSR was ruled out

That took a few days to come out.

The initial doubts started with the daughter and the husband making statements -- statements by two people who knew the mother best.

[geek tragedy]

15. No, the victim blaming began here within minutes of the story being broken

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2552292

The GSR tests took place the day of the crime, and the police were certain enough that she was innocent that they acted on her story and arrested the perps.

And please don't defend the tabloid dishonest smear cali posted yesterday--the daughter hadn't lived with the mother since she was 8 years old and the husband was in the anger stage of grieving and wasn't questioning her complicity--he was angry at her for walking down the wrong street with the baby.

[mainer]

21. I only found out about it with this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2567828

Which is when I posted about the subject. So I am guilty of making conclusions within minutes of the story? When I didn't even know about it until after the daughter and father made their comments?

Yeah, pin the blame on me. You seem to blame everyone within scatter shot.

[geek tragedy]

22. The first clue should have been when they arrested

someone else for the crime.

That thread was cali trying to cover her ass for her repulsive victim-blaming.

You'll notice she's been mighty scarce around here since the police cleared the mother as a suspect.

[chillfactor]

38. yep pinning the blame on you is quite appropriate...

that you are too dense to realize that says a great deal about you..and it isn't good.....and here you are again....trying to place blame on others for your own bigotry...

[mainer]

43. Bigotry against white women?

is that what you're accusing me of?

Funny. Because I ain't black.

[mainer]

55. Please define bigotry for me.

I didn't know that it was bigoted to ask questions.

I have already agreed with you that the right suspects are in prison.

But I will always disagree with you when you question my right to speak up.

[chillfactor]

62. speaking up is one thing

deliberately smearing the mother is another whole ballgame....

[mainer]

64. Please point to any of my posts where I said "she did it."

Do you even know what I have been posting? Child homicide statistics and innocence project statistics and crime lab statistics.

I have posted links to news stories.

I have posted inconsistencies in the stories.

I have posted the things that make me concerned about the guilt of the arrested boys.

But now I am pretty thoroughly convinced the police have arrested the right people. I do not post smears. I post doubts.

[freshwest]

96. Geek, I hadn't seen that and won't add to it. There was a take on her looks there:

One of the posters said that she looked made up or unaffected. That's not my impression from that photo, which won't post, but a click will show her face:

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1296308!/img/httpImage/image.jpg

Her son was probably the last chance for unconditional love she will ever have. And his face showed he was loved.



It hurts and then enrages one to think someone may be taking advantage public sympathy, but the arrest from the action of the young man's own aunt who called the police, is not consistent with him being framed because of his race or any other factor.

For some reason he felt entitled to do this act. We know the rate of arrest and incarceration of blacks is higher. Some due to race, but it's more about poverty and/or the concensus that the poor commit most crimes.

This could have been done by a white teenager, as we certainly hear about that enough in the news. Some go on autopilot over the stories posted, which is a typical human failing.

Thanks for taking an interest and clearing this story up.

[mainer]

11. And may I add, the initial news reports...

indicated that the arrests of the two boys were based SOLELY on the mother's ID of a photograph. No physical evidence, no video evidence. Just witness I.D.

Do you have any idea how unreliable witness ID is?

There were concerns about a miscarriage of justice. There always are.

[geek tragedy]

16. One of the boys was turned in by his aunt

After she saw him and the other kid with a gun.

FAIL.

[mainer]

19. And that happened the first day, did it?

You are re-creating a faked timeline. If we'd had that information about the aunt, none of this would have been brought up in discussion.

[geek tragedy]

20. The arrests were made that same day.

Which means the police made an assessment that she was not the suspect and began looking for the real suspects.

[mainer]

25. And police NEVER arrest the wrong people

Never. Ever. Which is why you trust them so completely.

[geek tragedy]

26. There was no reasonable factual predicate

upon which one could suspect the mother after police arrested someone else.

If she had shot herself and the baby, they would have figured it out right quick via GSR tests and simple police work.

Sorry, those who blamed the mother played their emotionalistic hunches and made asses of themselves.

Pure and simple.

[mainer]

29. No, mothers are never guilty of child murder.

and after police make arrests, there's never any reasonable factual predicate to doubt the arrestee's guilt.

So nice to hear you think everyone in prison is guilty, and that our justice system never executes the innocent.

[geek tragedy]

32. That is not a reason to accuse her.

What some other people did is completely irrelevant to her behavior.

You never, ever, ever, ever had a single piece of information that pointed in the direction of her doing it.

[premium]

30. The police made the arrests based on the aunt turning in the 15 yo boy

and then the 15 yo fingering the 17 yo.
There was never any question as to the police arresting the wrong people, and now it seems they probably have the murder weapon.

[mainer]

34. Let's take a tour of the way-back machine

and look at the initial news reports:

March 22:

"Police say that they have received well over 30 tips and are searching for the two African American boys between 13 and 15 years old with curly hair. While police search for the duo, they state that they are exploring all options. They also state that they aren’t ruling out anyone or anything, according to Brunswick Police Information Officer Todd Rhodes, this morning. The shooting happened near a school campus and the Glynn County School Board campus police are checking attendance and absentee records and comparing possible suspects to that of those that weren’t present in school on yesterday.


The toddlers mother is the only witness to the shooting and identifies the shooter as a black male 13-15 years old. She said that he wore a long sleeve red shirt, 5 feet 9 inches tall with curly hair. They were seen running east of the crime scene on London Street. West states that the second robber wore a black shirt and appeared a couple of years younger than the shooter (10-15 years old ) she said.

Police went from door to door with automatic weapons traveled door to door within 100 blocks of the crime scene on Thursday, in search of the suspects.

10k reward is being offered for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the alleged perpetrators."

Where was the aunt mentioned, the one who turned in the boys? See it anywhere? No?

Yet you claim we ALL SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that it was the aunt who turned in the boys.

[geek tragedy]

39. A few points

1. You knew someone else had been arrested for the crime before you joined in on the victim-blaming.

2. It was known that the aunt turned them in on SATURDAY:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Brunswick-mother-certain-suspect-shot-toddler/-/475880/19439744/-/item/1/-/8t4s9y/-/index.html

Published On: Mar 23 2013 03:29:01 PM EDT Updated On: Mar 24 2013 08:39:08 PM EDT
Small TextMedium TextLarge Text.Print Email

Debra Obley says she never imagined she'd have two ties to the investigation into the murder of the toddler.

"I feel sad I'm being threatened, yeah I'm being threatened by people saying they are going to kill me or have people to kill me, because I'm a snitch," said Obley.

Obley's nephew is the 14-year-old accused of being an accomplice to the murder.

She tells Channel 4 that she gave Elkins a ride from her mother's house, not knowing who he was.

"When he got in the car, he laid down in the backseat," said Obley. "He kept looking around, peeping up and I said, 'Boy, what you doing? You skipping school?' You know, he said 'No ma'am.'"

When she started asking for more questions, Obley said Elkins cut the ride short.

"When he got out of the car, he had something hid up in his pants. It was a gun," said Obley.

Obley says she felt something wasn't right, so she asked her nephew about it.

"I said...if you've got something to do with this little baby, you can't talk to me. I'm your auntie," said Obley. "He said 'Auntie, I don't even know the boy. I don't have anything to do with that.'"

Even though he wouldn't talk to her, Obley decided to talk to police. While it's hard to see her nephew behind bars, Obley said she feels she did the right thing.

"It's wrong. That was a baby. That baby can't come back," said Obley. "That mama will never get that baby back. Whoever did it deserves to be behind bars."

[mainer]

51. Funny, then, that Huffington Post made no mention of it

Last edited Wed Mar 27, 2013, 03:59 PM - Edit history (2)

on that very same day, when his aunt was still providing an alibi:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/23/demarquis-elkins-arrested-baby-antonio_n_2939022.html

Nor did ABC on 3/25:

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/sherry-west-demarquise-elkins-case-brunswick-georgia-teens-appear-in-court-in-baby-shooting-case

So somehow, even though ABC and Huffington Post didn't seem to know about the aunt until 3/26, we the public were supposed to know about her way back from the beginning?

[geek tragedy]

53. That was a different aunt.

Elkins's aunt is the criminal who tried to help him conceal his crime.

Lang's aunt is the one who did the right thing.

Quit digging. You were never right.

[premium]

56. Wrong aunt.

It was the 15 yo's aunt that went to the police, the 17 yo's mother and aunt were arrested for giving false statements to the police.

[mainer]

131. First DU post of news about aunt Obley was on 3/26

Here: http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=435448

I can't find an earlier one.

Since you say you knew about aunt Obley since the day of the arrest, where is your Saturday DU post about the news? Surely you would have announced it to us all?

btw, posting an article that has since been updated, and then saying the entire content dates back to the original date of publication, is not really kosher, you know.

[premium]

46. I'm in no way claiming that all should have known.

I'm just letting you know how they caught the alleged killers.
And, at this time, it is an allegation only, they're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[LanternWaste]

42. I'd imagine that as many as three people who voiced "concerns" were sincere

I'd imagine that as many as two, maybe even three posters who voiced "concerns" were sincere rather than simply making implications.

[mainer]

13. So to whom do we apologize for having concerns the boys might be innocent?

You? Were you personally jailed or suspected or accused?

[geek tragedy]

17. Smearing a crime victim is not the same

as expressing support for due process.

[mainer]

23. Due process is what we all want

And INITIAL POLICE REPORTS were that the boys were arrested on the basis of PHOTO ID BY THE MOTHER.

When did the aunt come into the story? The first day? Prove it.

[geek tragedy]

24. The mother gave a desription, not a photo ID, at first.

The police figured it out from there, and after arrest gave her a chance to do a photo ID.

But, here's the part you're missing:

if the police thought the mother had shot them herself, they wouldn't have engaged in a manhunt for the fictitious killers.

Duh.

[mainer]

27. Right. "He's a husky 17-year-old black boy."

That nailed him, of course.

Because eyewitnesses are always right.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

[geek tragedy]

28. You. Were. Wrong.

At all times. You never had any reason to accuse the mother.

Never.

Ever.

Learn from your wrongful behavior.

[mainer]

31. "Wrongful behavior?" Asking questions?

Wow. Did I put someone in jail with my questions? Or did I attempt to tease out whether the wrong party was in prison?

That is now considered wrongful behavior?

[geek tragedy]

33. Recklessly accusing a crime victim of murdering her

own baby is a shitty goddamn thing to do, especially when you have zero facts to back you up.

[mainer]

37. Accused her? No, raised questions.

You are getting confused between what's a courtroom and what's a discussion board.

[geek tragedy]

41. Every single available and relevant fact

corroborated her version of the story.

There were zero pieces of evidence pointing at her.

Zero.zero

[alphafemale]

77. exactly right.

And they will NEVER apologize.

[geek tragedy]

78. one told me that the mother was "not the real victim"

it's pathological hatred of this woman.

[chillfactor]

45. give it up already....

you didn't just "raise questions"..you accused the mom......your own bigotry got you into trouble here .. go away and let the adults talk here.....your childish behavior is not welcome here....

[LanternWaste]

47. hen what evidence is there that the "concerns" were sincere?

If, as you stated, hearsay is highly unreliable, then what evidence is there that the "concerns" were sincere?

[onehandle]

35. Need moar guns. nt

[geek tragedy]

44. The only thing that will save a baby from

being shot is for that baby to be armed.

We are a sick society.

[geek tragedy]

50. First post and it's to smear a crime victim.

Hopefully you won't get a second.

[chillfactor]

58. her sick post did not last very long...

I have seen her posts on other blogs and they are just as hateful....

[premium]

59. That was fast.

One post, goodbye.

[democrank]

68. Bless that little baby boy

and may his family find peace.

[geek tragedy]

69. The mother--I can't even imagine how

traumatized she must be.

This was the second child she lost. And to have it happen like that, ugh.

[riqster]

84. Here's hoping the poor woman doesn't look at DU

Even more trauma. So many uninformed, disingenuous victim-blamers slamming her...

Anyone who has not buried their child should refrain from speculating, criticizing, or, ahem, "just asking questions".

Let the woman grieve.

[moobu2]

103. I think it's OK to question the circumstances surrounding a crime

How many cases have there been where a parent was involved in their own child's death? Plenty. and nobody knows this woman after all. I thought she was a little odd acting myself when I saw her give that interview on the TV right after it happened. Anyway, I think it's perfectly fine to question these things without being accused of Smearing a victim. There are plenty of cases of people we thought were victims who later turned out to be anything but.

[mainer]

104. Hoo boy. Good luck.

Keep your head down and I advise you to get out while you can. Because the missiles are gonna start flying at you in 3..2...1...

[geek tragedy]

106. What did you mean by "spidey senses should be tingling"

when you were questioning the veracity of what she told police?

[geek tragedy]

105. It's one thing to say "let's wait for all the facts"

It's another to say "her story stinks" and "police seem to think she's hiding something" and "there's reason to think she could have been behind it" and "she could have paid them to do it" and "just because they say she's not a suspect doesn't mean police have cleared her" and "she was eating fried chicken, that seems suspicous."

And, yes, the fact that this woman wasn't crying on command, used hair gel, had her child cremated, and was eating fried chicken were all cited as evidence of her guilt.

Missing from those pointing the finger at her was any piece of information that actually indicated she was guilty.

[alphafemale]

112. The only thing they had was....things like it have happened before.

They had no plausible reason for doubting the story.

And yet they continue...the vile bullshit.

[geek tragedy]

113. There was plenty of hatred directed towards the mother.

Raw, toxic sewage directed at a crime victim.

I understand rape culture much better as a psychological phenomenon having witnessed this kind of victim-hating.

Some people are just shitty human beings.

[alphafemale]

119. People actually suggested she hired someone to kill the baby.

Those poverty policies are barely enough to cover final expenses.

Sick...sick people.

Or maybe just in denial.

If a woman walking with her baby is fair game for the criminal culture.....No One is safe.

[geek tragedy]

120. They suggested she was guilty because

she was eating fried chicken.

And had hair gel.

And because the father was lashing out at her in his grief.

Etc etc etc.

[Kelvin Mace]

108. And the screams of rage from loony league

begins in 3...2...1...

[slackmaster]

114. Calling it "random" is a comforting myth to help people avoid thinking about what actually happened

A 17-year-old boy brutally murdered an innocent baby. The killer didn't become a violent person randomly. He didn't pick his intended robber victim randomly. He didn't point the weapon in a random direction and fire it.

[geek tragedy]

115. Not comforting at all. "Random" means

"it could happen to you."

People like to think that they can prevent tragedy.

[slackmaster]

116. I don't believe it would have happened to me

Without a baby under my care, I could have run like hell and most likely gotten away. Or kicked the kid's ass.

He picked someone who was especially vulnerable. That was intentional. The only positive aspect to the story is that a monster was caught and stopped early.

[geek tragedy]

118. Well, sure predators pick on those whom they perceive

as vulnerable.

But, criminals choose victims, not the other way around.

And we're all vulnerable to someone with a gun who gets the drop on us. I'm certainly aware of it when walking home at night. Practice the drill in my mind, give up the wallet, don't make eye contact so they don't have to worry about you ID'ing them in a lineup, etc.

[slackmaster]

121. By being aware of your surroundings, you are actively reducing your likelihood of becoming a victim

My tax accountant used to work for a business that took in a lot of cash in a rough area - National City, CA. He had to make daily bank deposits, walking several blocks with cash and checks.

He got robbed once. So he applied for a concealed firearms permit for a weapon he already owned, and got the state-mandated training. He got his permit, and applied the lessons of situational awareness and how to behave in rough neighborhoods.

He never got hassled by street punks again. His body language telegraphed that he would not make a good choice as a victim.

One thing he learned was that a typical street criminal with a gun barely knows how to operate his weapon. My accountant learned to quickly draw and fire from concealment - Statistically faster than an untrained person is likely to be able to get a shot off even if he already has his weapon drawn.

A 17-year-old with a gun pointed at you is probably scared shitless, and even if he does manage to shoot you your chance of surviving is about 95% if you are able to get to medical care quickly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/nyregion/03shot.html?_r=0

[geek tragedy]

122. I have terrible hand-eye coordination.

And I don't carry much cash on me. They can have my wallet.

A real disturbing truth is that, this case being an exception, white people are generally protected by their skin color.

Mug/shoot/rape/kill an African-American? There will be some notice, but things will die down. Do that to a white person, and the media will hype it and the police will swarm.

[slackmaster]

124. Yes, a disproportionate amount of violent crime is minority-on-minority

But we really can't discuss that on DU.

[Niceguy1]

128. the mere mention

Of that can get you banned here.

I am amazed the closed mindndss and the willingness to jump to hasty conclusions displayed here

[JI7]

129. someone posted about this person shooting another person in a previous incident

so i think he would have shot anyone he came across.

[LisaL]

130. And that other robbery victim was an adult male.