NRA: No ‘Member Relationship’ With Adam Or Nancy Lanza

[DonViejo]

Source: TPM

PEMA LEVY 1:22 PM EDT, THURSDAY MARCH 28, 2013

The National Rifle Association on Thursday denied any "member relationship" with Adam Lanza or his mother, Nancy Lanza, after police documents released Thursday revealed that NRA materials were found at the Lanza home.

"There is no record of a member relationship between Newtown killer Adam Lanza, nor between Nancy Lanza, A. Lanza or N. Lanza with the National Rifle Association," the NRA said in a statement. "Reporting to the contrary is reckless, false and defamatory."

In addition to weapons and ammunitions, authorities found "a certificate from the National Rifle Association bearing the name Adam Lanza, a receipt from a shooting range in Oklahoma, an N.R.A. guide to the basics of pistol shooting and training manuals on the use of a variety of firearms, including a Bushmaster," according to the New York Times.

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Read more: http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/nra-no-member-relationship-with-adam-nancy-lanza

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Link to NYT article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/nyregion/search-warrants-reveal-items-seized-at-adam-lanzas-home.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

[MichiganVote]

1. Well that got their attention in a fat ass hurry didn't it. Interesting.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. None of that is surprising and seems reasonable

Many people own, firearms and take shooting classes without joining the NRA. That would explain the training materials and certificates.

[Tempest]

9. I believe you are correct. However...

It shows the NRA's anti-government and anti-gun control propaganda is working.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. How so?

Lots and lots of training classes, not so many NRA members

[elleng]

16. Right, I for one 'taught' riflery

in summer camp many years ago, after having been taught and tested and receiving 'sharpshooter' 'award.' Much to my surprise, I found the certificate among my OLD papers recently. I wasn't ever an NRA 'member.'

[Hoyt]

62. Just proves there are lots of non-members who support the NRA and their love of guns (and death).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. No, it means they took a shooting class, In CT that appears to be required by law.

Does that mean that CT supports the "NRA and their love of guns (and death)".

[Hoyt]

95. It means the NRA bribed the folks who wrote the law. Your support of NRA is noted.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. Actually the NRA opposes mandatory training

That the NRA provides good training material is a fact. Gun safety training is a good thing. Why whine about it unless you are able and willing to provide alternatives that meet the state requirements

[Hoyt]

101. Somehow, I don't think Wayne LaPierre, et al, care about good training.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

115. I think if you really cared you would start your own competitive training program

Training and competition is the quiet side of the organization. For example, what does Camp Perry mean to you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

183. That would entail planning and effort. Complaining about the NRA is far easier.

[jmowreader]

160. They seem to spend a shitload of money on something you claim they don't care about

[Hoyt]

172. Yeah, so they can claim they do "good." They just want to train new folks to buy more guns.

[wordpix]

182. no, they care about selling guns & assault weapons

They don't give a damn if people and little children are killed with 100-round magazines.

[premium]

107. The NRA bribed the CT lawmakers?

Can you post the link or proof please and let the rest of us see it so that we can judge it for ourselves?

[friendly_iconoclast]

184. Hoyt doesn't provide links or primary sources.

[premium]

185. That's probably why he didn't get back to me.

He couldn't give any links or proof of the NRA bribing CT lawmakers.

[friendly_iconoclast]

186. Think of it as a sort of evangelism- You're supposed to take it on faith and not ask questions.

[Hoyt]

187. Go checkout campaign contributions to CT lawmakers.

You can judge for yourself, but those steeped in guns never do.

[premium]

188. You're the one making the accusations,

you supply the proof.
You have no proof, do you? Otherwise, you would have happily posted it, right?

[curlyred]

82. What it shows is how the NRA inflates its membership numbers

[Cali_Democrat]

190. Well it's good to know Adam Lanza was NRA-certified

Otherwise this could have been a real tragedy

[ProgressiveProfessor]

191. It does mean that the mother was following the law

Which is not a bad thing.

[Cali_Democrat]

192. Good to know

I'm sure the 20 dead children are feeling a whole lot better right now knowing his mother followed the law

[onehandle]

3. Liars. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Probably not...

Look at the guesstimated number of gun owners vs NRA members.

[Hoyt]

64. How many folks are official members of Republican Party, verses those who support their vile agenda?

The NRA may only have 4 million members. but tens of million more gun nuts support their bribing legislators and advancing the right wing gun agenda. And, let's not forget that the NRA is primarily there to help manufacturers sell more lethal weapons.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. So you think there is a stealth NRA that is much larger than the 4M members acknowledged

and believe that many registered Democrats are Repukes in hiding.

May I point out that the conspiracy group is over thataway (http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135)

The NSSA does what you claim, NRA not so much.

[Paladin]

74. Looks like the NRA is the gatekeeper for some states' pistol ownership.

Not very stealthy, but a definite NRA influence multiplier. Funny how the whole NRA certificate thing has been kept so quiet by you and the rest of the DU Gun Enthusiasts until now......

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. Not really, its actually it a state imposed training requirement

I have mixed feelings about them. What other right do you need to get state certified training for to exercise? However, as long as they are not excessively onerous, I believe they are a good thing.

The NRA was originally a training organization. That has not gone away. They certify instructors, write curriculum, and provide expendable for classes. Its pretty good stuff, well polished over the years. No other organization has the history or the resources to compete with them, though there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so.

Another point is that the NRA itself is not doing the training. A facility (range, gun club, etc) offers it and uses NRA material and some supplemental material tailored to the locality to meet the training requirement. Instruction is normally given by an NRA certified instructor.

As to being quiet about them, I am in CA which takes a different, and IMO, a less effective approach. The firearms classes I taught met the CA standard but went much further.

In summary, the NRA is not a gatekeeper, they are a training materiel and instructor certification provider. The field is open for others, but no one seems interested in stepping up. CA, which went a different direction, has much less effective training requirements.

[grantcart]

122. Most other activities that have a reasonable chance of a fatality require training.

Driving being the most obvious one.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

124. And I support the required training while the NRA does not

Right now I don't know of any training requirement that I would consider too onerous.

[grantcart]

146. Universal state requirements for training would probably be the most effective

first step in reducing total deaths, I suppose, because it would, hopefully, reduce the tragic accidental discharges that occur on a daily basis.

I am guessing that non gun owners are mostly not well informed of what required training there is.

I know that I only became aware of it with a chance meeting with a gun owner in California.

It was a lot more than I expected.

I believe that it was required to get the hunting license, but not quite sure.

[DBoon]

163. and imagine if the UAW sponsored driver training

How many members would the UAW have?

[davepc]

4. The local range here wont let any one shoot without an NRA cert

It's well know that Lanza and his mother went to shooting ranges, having certs from the NRA shouldn't be any big surprise. It also doesn't make them dues paying NRA members.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Training certificate or membership?

Some ranges want to see NRA membership cards for insurance purposes. Others want to see the training certification.

[Elvin Ives]

14. What is an NRA certificate?

Is it the same thing as being a member of the NRA?

[davepc]

17. A piece of paper saying you sucesfully completed a training course.

It's not the same thing as being a member.

By law, CT residents must complete an NRA training before being issued a state pistol permit.

[Remmah2]

26. It's the paper you sign with the devil right before they steal your soul.

At least that's what the media tells us.

[davidpdx]

19. There would be one way to find out

Look up all the shooting ranges within 50 miles and call and ask each one. I bet someone has already done it though after the NRA issued the denial.

[Thinkingabout]

5. I wonder how long it took NRA to purge their records of the Lanza name.

From some of the information I have heard that in order to use many firing ranges you was required to be a member of NRA. If the police has taken evidence where Lanza is shown as a member of NRA it might not be anything to change this fact.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

83. There is a way for the police to determine that

NRA members get their choice of monthly NRA magazine to receive. They are not sold on newstands IME. If those are in the house with them on the mail address, then at least one of them was an NRA member.

[rdharma]

178. A NRA Member doesn't have to receive these magazines to be a member. nt

[Iliyah]

6. Not long in the purging but if these NRA heads believe in

heaven and hell I'm pretty sure hell is waiting with open arms for them.

[hockeynut57]

11. NRA certificate required in ohio to get a

get a ccl. probably similar case here

[hack89]

23. CT requires a NRA training course to buy a handgun. nt

[Hoyt]

65. Past time to change that aspect of laws. Why should government sanction callousness and bigotry? n/t

[Hoyt]

67. To get or carry a gun, one should have to see photos of people maimed by guns . . . . . .

Not listen to some right wing gun nut tell you about gun safety under the auspices of the NRA and the lethal weapons manufacturers/retailers they represent.

Didn't mean to respond to myself, but I agree with what I said.

[atreides1]

80. I guess I qualify then

Only I saw it up close and personal...no photos.

[premium]

108. If I wanted to buy a gun,

why should I have to look at pictures of people injured or killed when I had nothing to do with it?

[Hoyt]

131. Because one supports the industry and carry/accumulate guns in our society.

Good enough reason for me.

[premium]

133. What an epic fail of an answer.

I thank my lucky stars that you are a part of a very small fringe and that your ideas will never see the light of day.

[Hoyt]

135. Enjoy your guns and the comfort they bring you.

[premium]

136. Another epic fail.

You're 2 for 2 so far.
BTW, the only gun I own is a Colt Python .357 and a 12 ga. shotgun which I've had for ages, I have no desire to own anymore.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. The government requires training, which is according to many, a very good thing

NRA is the leading provider of training courses, materiel, and instructor certification.

You are free to start a competing organization if you wish to provide the same services and get it certified by the various states

[Hoyt]

73. That needs to change. Why should someone steeped in guns train people on safety?

I'm sorry, but the NRA is not who should be doing the training.

I don't really think people should be forced to listen to a mouthpiece endorsed by an organization run by Grover Norquist, Ted Nugent, Wayne LaPierre, gun manufacturers, gun stores, etc. I'll bet my rear that an NRA lobbyist is behind that requirement being written into legislation.

Your defense of the NRA and all they stand for is duly noted. Are any of your "courses" sanctioned by the NRA?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. Because they know more about it than those who advocate cans of beans for self defense?

Step back and look at this rationally.

The state sets up training standards required for gun ownership via the legislature. Within those rules is a means to get the training certified.

The NRA was originally a training organization. That has not gone away. They certify instructors, write curriculum, and provide expendable for classes. Its pretty good stuff, well polished over the years. No other organization has the history or the resources to compete. You are welcome to start one.

Bear in mind that the NRA does not give the classes. An in state facility (range, gun club, etc) offers it and uses NRA material and some supplemental material tailored to the locality to meet the training requirement. Instruction is normally given by an NRA certified instructor.

I am in CA which takes a different, and IMO, a less effective approach than other states. I do not issue NRA training certificates.

In summary, the NRA is not a gatekeeper, they are a training materiel and instructor certification provider. The field is open for others, but no one seems interested in stepping up. CA, which went a different direction, has much less effective training requirements.

[Hoyt]

89. NRA is a right wing organization, and not just with respect to guns. Saw Grover Norquist shilling

for NRA the other night on CNN.

The NRA is a right wing front organization, and apparently you are more than willing to pass out their literature and advance their cause.

Of course no one tries to compete with NRA, their lobbyists bribe those who write the legislation.

Yes a person who passes out NRA literature, and/or who works under their auspices is advancing their right wing gun agenda. You can't deny that -- no matter how hard you try.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

96. Then counter it by providing alternative training material

Until you do, railing about it doesn't seem real rational

[Hoyt]

100. I'm not into training people to shoot others.

Since you are, maybe you should provide the alternative.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

116. I already teach firearms and have no desire to take it nationally

I also know that the current defacto standard is pretty good stuff. Take the class for yourself and see.

[defacto7]

12. Jesus.. where is that delete button on my keyboard??????

Oh.. there is it is! <click>

"No one by that name here!"

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Pay no attention to that certificate behind the curtain. n/t

[hack89]

24. Every gun owner in CT has a NRA certificate

a NRA training course is required by law in order to buy a handgun

You are required to complete a handgun safety course, which must consist of no less than the NRA's "Basic Pistol Course," prior to submitting the application.

http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?a=4213&q=494614&desppNav_GID=2080

it would be more newsworthy if they did not have a NRA certificate.

[Squinch]

29. What is the purpose of the NRA training course? Is it to show you how to use a gun safely?

And are we still going to believe that it does anything to get people to use guns safely?

[hack89]

36. It is hard to imagine that any safety training is a waste of time. nt

[Squinch]

41. Clearly this was.

[hack89]

42. Are you suggesting there be no training requirement at all? nt

[Squinch]

43. I'm stating that this training requirement was obviously not effective in

making us safer from guns.

I think that because of the massacre of children and stuff.

[hack89]

44. The training is to ensure you can handle a gun with no accidents

there is no safety training in the world that can prevent a deliberate criminal act. That is why we need stronger background checks. As well as single payer health care with mental health coverage.

[pipoman]

53. So by that logic you must think drivers ed is a complete waste of time, eh?

[Squinch]

59. If there were a spate of incidents of people driving into schools and running over schoolchildren,

I'd say driver's ed wasn't cutting it as the way to keep us safe from cars.

Wouldn't you?

[pipoman]

61. What is a spate?

CDC says there are around 500 pedestrians 0-16 killed by cars annually...is that a spate? (keeping in mind the CDC says there are <100 accidental firearms deaths for the same age demographic..

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

There are far more people killed through inattentive driving, driving while intoxicated, and improper response...all of these things are part of most drivers ed programs...in light of that, drivers ed must be ineffectual..

No, it is disingenuous to pretend any type of safety training for any activity is a waste of time based on the the reality that accidents will still happen...or in your case, that safety training is a waste of time because people will wish to harm others, which really doesn't have shit to do with safety training..300 million firearms 100-150,000,000 gun owners and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 firearms fatalities, 20,000 suicides, and 60,000 nonfatal firearms involved injuries...of those around 10,000 unintentional injuries and fatalities..10,000...out of 300,000,000 firearms and 150,000,000 owners...your assertions that firearms safety is a waste of time are ludicrous..

[Squinch]

189. 500 child pedestrians killed by cars annually?? Wow! I'm going to get to work

to make sure that those operating cars are fully registered and licensed to operate those things! Driver's ed just isn't going to cut it as regulation for something so dangerous!


And by your statistics, I see 10,000 fatalities, and 60,00 nonfatal injuries. From that you conclude there were 10,000 unintentional incidents. Do you think that the other 60,000 were guys wondering what a gunshot injury to the hand or toe felt like and performing an intentional experiment? Because that would be a news story.

[Bolo Boffin]

45. Yet they have no association with the NRA at all

It's not the NRA's fault Adam Lanza has an NRA certificate. He's sposed ta! Pity the poor NRA who got dragged unwillingly into this situation where they keep training mass murderers...

[hack89]

46. If the state says you have to have an NRA certificate

then how is it the NRA's fault? And just how did the NRA train him to be a mass murder? I thought gun control advocates want more gun safety training?

[Bolo Boffin]

49. If the NRA was simply concerned with safe gun handling, it'd be one thing.

But the NRA ceaselessly lobbies to block any kind of reasonable gun legislation from passing, and then doubles down their efforts to ensure that any reasonable gun laws that do get passed can't be enforced.

Fuck the NRA and the Ron/Rand Paul libertarian populism they rode in on.

[pipoman]

51. Who else is doing safe gun handling education?

The Brady Groups? Nope..never in their history. Let's see, who else? Hmmmm..Uh, nobody else that's who. The NRA as opposed to NRA-ILA, has trained more people in safe gun handling at all levels from kids through police officers than any other group/entity on the planet..like it or not..

[hack89]

86. CT has an AWB and gun registration for assault weapons

looks like the NRA didn't block that sensible legislation. Not that those laws made a difference.

[Progressive dog]

77. Does "handgun" encompass all guns

Your text contradicts your title.

[hack89]

84. You are right - just handguns

Lanza and his mother had several handguns - hence the certificates.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Hoyt]

90. Actually it doesn't "require" an NRA course, but the NRA was successful in getting their name into

legislation.

Today the NRA is a right wing organization, look at their leadership. Your support is noted, but not a big surprise.

[hack89]

91. Did you read the CT law? It is in black and white as a requirement to buy a handgun. nt

[Hoyt]

93. Read a bit closer, it says the equivalent of an NRA course.

I hope your are more discerning when around guns.

However, the NRA lobbyist did get their way with those who wrote the legislation.

[pipoman]

180. Who else is doing training? What materials are they using?

Who trained them and what made them qualified to train others?

They are mentioned in the law, obviously, because they are the standard of the US (probably the world) in firearms safety..they have known effective training programs conducted by tested instructors..they have trained and train every year more people (kids thru cops) in firearms safety than any other entity in the world..like it/them or not..Without their training and influence there would undoubtedly be many more accidents than there currently are..

[Hoyt]

181. I appreciate your love of the NRA/guns, but they have bribed legislators and created a monopoly.

One we need to bust.

[CTyankee]

15. "You are known by the company you keep" was drilled into my head growing up.

My parents were pretty clear on this. It was one of my "steering principles" as I was maturing and it has stayed with me for all these years. I still say it to my grandchildren...

[MADem]

18. Well, there's some kind of relationship--unless they hand out certificates like candy

to people they don't even know!

[davepc]

20. You take a class, you get the cert.

The class is not that long, few hours at most, and is required by law in the state of CT to get a pistol permit.

[Squinch]

30. And once you've taken the course, the NRA says you know how to be safe with a gun. Snort.

[Remmah2]

33. NO then they suck your soul.

At least that's what some people try to make us believe.

[Squinch]

34. The NRA's recent statements seem pretty soulless, soooo.......

I think they're the ones trying to make us all believe that.

[MADem]

37. What an odd "church-state" relationship. Inappropriate, if you ask me.

I really don't understand why the state demands that citizens patronize--and pay--a private lobbying organization to qualify to be eligible to use a weapon in the state.

Perhaps the state ought to make sure that their citizens are receiving the appropriate knowledge by running the course themselves, instead of permitting a politically divisive special interest organization to indoctrinate the future permiteers as they see fit?

[Gormy Cuss]

40. +1

[X_Digger]

55. And have the state cut the budget for such training courses as a means to restrict pistol licenses?

That's the way it used to be in many 'may issue' states. Too cute by half measures, like having the permit office only open between 1-3pm on every other Tuesday, or limiting the class size to the first ten who show up, with a class whose time/date is posted at the permitting office an hour before the start of the class? *wink wink* *nudge nudge*.

[MADem]

56. Ahhh....so the answer is to let the gun lobbyists run the show!

Yeah, sure, that's the ticket...

Wink wink nudge nudge indeed. More like "Hardy har, shove, shove" if you ask me.

Sorry, no sale. The solution to unresponsive government isn't to push the government towards abdicating their duties in favor of allowing lobbyists to run the show.

That's just stupid. We've got far too much corporate influence in government as it is.

[X_Digger]

57. Guess who trains and certifies the most police officers?

Is the NRA pistol safety course somehow defective? Or is this just a jobs program in your mind? Or would you like to see such shenanigans as I mentioned brought back to deter gun ownership?

Hunter safety? It's also required in most states (for those born after a certain date).

[MADem]

58. They're not doing a terribly good job, then, are they?

I'd like to see governments not subcontract government responsibilities and services to corporate, profiteering, agenda laden lobbyists.

It's pretty simple, actually.

[X_Digger]

92. By that same logic, is driver's ed failing because we still have auto crashes?

Of course not.

Government has a responsibility to ensure that folks are trained to a standard. They don't necessarily have a responsibility to actually do the training themselves.

[MADem]

103. We don't hire Ford's or Toyota's lobbyists to teach driver's ed. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

119. And the NRA does not teach state mandated gun safety classes

[MADem]

127. Yes, they do. NRA members teach the classes and send the names of the participants to the HQ. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

142. And you know this how?

Most (not all) instructors are NRA certified. That they send the names to the NRA is news to me.

[MADem]

144. We are TALKING about NRA certified instructors. Try to keep up.

Again, how does the NRA send out certificates if they don't have the names?

How were they able to admit that the Lanzas had genuine NRA certificates, and not forged or invented ones? Answer--they WENT TO THEIR FILES. From their files, they determined that Yes, they were issued certificates, and No, they were not members.

Why you're denying the obvious is a puzzlement to me. Why are you defending them in a way that makes it appear that you're some sort of blatant and fact-free shill for them? Some truths--including the truth that the NRA makes money by collecting names and selling them to telemarketers and corporate pitchmen (see the Forbes link I provided)--are just self-evident. The fact that NRA uses its member lists as a profit-generating resource is apparent to anyone who looks cursorily at their business model.

[X_Digger]

123. And the NRA doesn't *actually* train most people.

I can go take a course from an NRA-certified instructor. I pay my money to the trainer, not the NRA.

The NRA sets the course syllabus, but makes no money from my training. Materials for the course are provided by the trainer, not the NRA.

[MADem]

126. Pull the string.

They train the instructors. http://le.nra.org/training

They even give the instructors kickbacks if they are able to "host" the training sites!

Good grief, you can't possibly be that obtuse!


Those instructors ARE the NRA. They are members of a large, influential, and batshit crazy lobbying outfit.

You really think non-members are teaching these courses? Sending in the names to the NRA so they can print up the certificates and record all that personal information in their little files?

[X_Digger]

132. They train the trainers, yes.

But the trainers, such as the one that teach the folks of CT in pistol safety, don't send 'kickbacks' to the NRA.

ANYONE can be a trainer in the basic pistol course, after taking the instructor course, from an NRA certified instructor.

ie, http://www.hdboar.com/nrabapiincof.html

[MADem]

137. Yes, they DO send "kickbacks" in the form of new member lists.

It's a symbiotic relationship. The instructors get paid by their suckers, er, students, to teach the course, and if they "host" the course, they get paid BY THE NRA to provide the facilities. That's right on the NRA website.

The trainers are required to declare/affirm the number of hours they teach each new sucker to the NRA HQ in Va. They have to tell them who they taught, so NRA can give the marks a little "certificate" (and file their name, address, phone number, email address, age marital status, employment, etc. in their files, for future sale to telemarketers, corporate assholes who send out slick promotional materials, and email spammers).

Good grief, it's not rocket science. It's Big Business. It's how the NRA Makes Their Money. The "training courses" are the way they develop a list of suckers to target. It's like a loss leader at a supermarket (paper towels on sale right next to the high end delicacies that are irresistible if you're even slightly hungry), this "Oh, we care so much about the gun community" line of horseshit that pays them Big Dividends down the line. These classes are their little seedling trays, a gift that keeps on giving once the crop comes in.

They target the suckers, er, students, for membership, for appeals for contributions to their lobbying arm (They're gunna take yer guns--donate a hunnerd bucks Right Effing Now to stop'em!!!!) and then they sell those names to corporate entities--one of the most valuable and expensive lists on the market--so they can target the marks to buy guns, ammo, clothing (stupid and not-so-stupid), peripheral gear, and other "special offers" that market research has determined have a nexus with gun ownership.

Take two steps back, and view the panorama. It's all there.

[X_Digger]

147. You're confusing the LEO program and everything else.

Joe's gun shop can host a basic pistol (or hunter safety, or basic rifle, etc etc) course if one of Joe's employees becomes a trainer. And Joe's employee can take the instructor course from another company who trains trainers (see the link I provided above). That's two steps removed from the NRA training anyone.

They send the names etc to the NRA so that the NRA can say later, if the state should ask, 'was such and such person trained according to state standards' set out in legislative code blah blah blah.

[MADem]

149. I am not "confusing" a doggone thing. Step back, just a bit, and watch the money flow.

It's not rocket science. This isn't a charitable enterprise. It's a Big Money business, and the people at the top are raking in millions, and that money is coming from acolyte-suckers with their little certificates and membership cards, their donations to their political arm, and the sale of donation, membership and certificate lists (with all that swell associated demographic information) to telemarketers and corporate profiteers at hefty prices. These loyal schmucks (dressed in gear that they bought from businesses that magically knew they liked all that gun stuff--isn't that special?) are a gold mine to the corporate bigwigs, and to make it more amusing, the gold mine busily defends the mine owners who exploit them--it's rich, all right--in more ways than one.

When even FORBES (no friend to the plowshares crowd) has no problem seeing where the money is coming and where it's going, I can't understand this continued Wizard of Oz/Pay No Attention To the Man Behind the Curtain foolishness being shopped here on a supposedly "progressive" discussion board. No one can possibly be so obtuse--they aren't printing money at NRA HQ, they have to get it from somewhere, after all! And they earn it--by exploiting the people with whom they come in contact!

Take off the blooming blinders! None so blind as those who will not see--these assclowns are gaming their loyal card-carrying mooks, and taking them for a huge ride, while the mooks pretend that they're special, part of a little club, and that these exploitative jerks aren't invading their privacy, selling their personal information and using them as a source of profit.

Step right up--provide these assholes with your name, address, date of birth, gender, email address, and phone number; give them some money, and they will give you a cute little "Look at MEEE--I'm SPECIAL!" card for your wallet, and a subscription to a slick bullshit magazine which will enable their corporate pals to better target you (Is he an outdoorsman, or an urban tough guy? His choice of "free" magazine will give us a clue!). Then, after paying for the "privilege" of membership, they will sell your personal details, over and over again, for as long as, and long after-- if you come to your senses and quit-- you are a member.

Enjoy the commercial solicitations, the barrels of junk mail, the telemarketers calling you despite your presence on the Do Not Call list (hey, you've "done business" with the NRA, it's an "existing relationship&quot and your email spam growing by leaps and bounds. Trade your privacy for a sense of belonging, while Wayne and his buddies, having sold your details to the highest bidders, continue to consolidate their power with the money you've provided to them and chortle all the way to the bank!

AARP does the same shit, too, but not nearly as well!

[X_Digger]

150. Nice rant, but you still haven't supported your assertion that the NRA is training everyone..

Nor that the NRA gets a kickback (unless you've moved that particular goalpost to mean getting unsolicited mail).

[MADem]

152. Stop trying to change the subject. No one said they were training EVERYONE.

In fact, someone in this thread discussed how CA opted out of their nefarious influence.

Nice attempt at deflection, but no sale.

The "kickback"--if you'd read what I wrote and the Forbes link I provided (and you aren't doing that, plainly, making this exercise an enormous waste of my time) is the demographic information they receive from every new certificate holder, member, and/or donor to their political arm. That information is worth a great deal of money. It is a saleable commodity, and they sell it, over and over again. It's a key piece of how they stay afloat--they sell your personal details, and you PAY them for the "favor!"

Do you seriously think they can bribe/threaten politicians AND pay their leadership a million dollars a pop on membership fees and frantic "They're gunna take yer guns" pleas for donations alone? Please.

[X_Digger]

153. *cough*

NRA does teach the classes.

Gee, I wonder who said that?

[MADem]

156. "Cough--choke"--no one said they teach EVERY class in every locality.

But you're trying--desperately, too--to make it seem as though that assertion was made, when it was plainly not.

Anyone reading this thread in the full context of all the comments can see that.

Look, you've lost the bubble. Give up gracefully--it looks foolish when you try to nitpick, and it's painfully, flopsweatting obvious, too. You're not "winning" with those kinds of cheap tactics, but you are revealing your debate strategy (and it's not anything to write home about, either...just sayin'...).

[X_Digger]

157. You've repeated it more than once, before you were shown to be wrong.

The same with the 'kickback' comment.. you hefted that goalpost from being actual kickback to unsolicited mailings.

*yawn*

They even give the instructors kickbacks if they are able to "host" the training sites!

Sound familiar?

[MADem]

162. Grasp that straw firmly, now!

You can't erase the context of these conversations, no matter how often you try the "gray highlight" game. The more you do it, the more you motivate people to go back and read the entire thread contextually, and all that will do is "highlight" your lame methodology of cherry picking bits and pieces of a conversation in Fauxian fashion.

What sounds familiar is the bull you're trying to shop! It's getting tiresome!

So yeah...."yawn" indeed, there, skippy!

[X_Digger]

165. I *encourage* folks to read you repeatedly saying things that are incorrect.

I'm just glad that you've educated yourself to the point of not repeating more of the same misstatements.

[MADem]

166. You're the one who needs to educate yourself, and you've made that abundantly clear in this

pointless little snarky exchange. Your bias is showing.

[X_Digger]

167. My bias is for reality, not hyperbolic hand-wringing.

In three different sub-threads that I count on cursory glance, you've went from claiming that the NRA is responsible for all training / teaching the classes themselves / etc and that they get 'kickbacks', to a vague assertion about the value of unsolicited mail / email.

[MADem]

169. No, your bias is towards the fiction that the NRA is a benevolent organization that cares about you.

It's a profiteering lobbying/shakedown non-profit-in-name-only that scams the public, sells private information for gross profit, and bullies and threatens politicians.

Keep reiterating falsehoods about what I actually said--all it does is make your "bullshit/snark/repeat" pattern more apparent to anyone reading this thread.

[X_Digger]

173. You can take your fingers out of my mouth, I've no idea where they've been.

This subthread started with this silly statement-

I really don't understand why the state demands that citizens patronize--and pay--a private lobbying organization to qualify to be eligible to use a weapon in the state.

When shown that no, residents of CT (or anywhere else) don't have to 'patronize-- and pay' the NRA, you hopped off into denial, dodging, and re-interpretation.

You do realize that 'non-profit' doesn't mean no profits, right? Non-profit refers to having no stockholders, and paying no dividends. Another name for a non-profit is a non-stock corporation. Most charities are non-profit, but not all non-profits are charities. Not even all 501(c)(3)s are charities. As a non-stock corporation under 501(c)(3), the main NRA cannot lobby, or engage in electioneering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not-for-profit_corporation

Designation as a nonprofit and an intent to make money are not related in the United States.

I'll leave the separation of the NRA into the parts that do lobby from the parts that don't for another thread. (There's even a part that can receive tax-deductible donations.)

[MADem]

175. I don't know or care where you have your "fingers" but that's no concern of mine.

And I'd no sooner put my fingers in your mouth than take your flailing commentary seriously.

The sad fact that you can't read without bias isn't my concern either.

You are repeatedly (mis)interpreting my words (and cherry/nit picking without context) to suit your bias--that's your problem, not mine. It's tiresome and childish, though, as well as a waste of time.

Now you're parsing about what the NRA is and is not, to try and rescue your argument. Sorry--the NRA is that nutjob Lapierre and his buddies, and people like you who eagerly and mindlessly carry their brackish water.

Have a nice day, now--you haven't, nor will you ever, make a cogent case. You've circled the drain a few times now, you haven't said anything valid, and I have an actual life.

[X_Digger]

176. Well, you were happy to try to stuff words in my mouth. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. The NRA started as a training and competition organization

All of that is still intact. You just don't see it on MSNBC.

The state government sets the training requirements and certifies the curriculum. Local (in state) groups like gun clubs and ranges meet those training requirements mostly using NRA developed training materials acceptable to the state.

Other training material could be developed and certified, but no one is stepping up to do it.

[rdharma]

88. "You just don't see it on MSNBC. "

What I saw (as a longtime member of the NRA) is their shift from being a firearms safety, training and competition organization..... to a PAC for the GOP and a lobby for the firearms industry.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

98. I fully agree with that

However it was an expansion. The training and competition portions are still there.

[rdharma]

104. The lion's share of the NRA's revenue goes to the political action branch.....

And..... I've seen them cutting back on the safety, training and competition programs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

109. Dues or political contributions

If its dues, report them to the IRS.

[rdharma]

148. "If it's dues, report them to the IRS."

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2013, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)

For violation of what law exactly?

[Clames]

154. The one that restricts tax exempt organizations from being involved in political campaigns.

Is this seriously news to you?

[rdharma]

158. So why aren't NRA membership dues tax deductible?

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2013, 09:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Or is that news to you, Clames?

BTW - I have the answer if you get stumped.

[Clames]

159. I know why the NRA dues aren't tax deductible.

I also now that membership dues aren't used for political lobbying which is why there is the NRA-ILA. The NRA has a foundation that is tax exempt and donations are tax deductible. News to you of course but the ACLU and NAACP have similar setups. Don't think I'm going to be learning anything new from you Mr. Google Gunsmith...

[rdharma]

161. "I also (k)now that membership dues aren't used for political lobbying"

Then why aren't the membership dues tax deductable?

You still haven't answered that question.

Which takes in more money..... the NRA Foundation.... or the NRA-ILA? Which branch do they put more effort into.... and why?

BTW - I've got the answers if you also get stuck on those questions.

PS - I'll give you a hint....... do you get the American Rifleman or American Hunter mags?

[Clames]

164. Because the part of the organization those dues go to...

...does not meet the criteria to be tax exempt... Rest of it you can look up yourself, I don't do homework for others...

[rdharma]

168. "does not meet the criteria to be tax exempt"

Oh! You don't say!

Imagine that!

SO ...... what money do they take in that goes to shooter education, safety training, and competition? And how does that compare to their political (PAC, Lobby, Advocacy) funding?

I hate to say I "gotcha"! But it's painfully obvious that's the case once again, eh?

[Hoyt]

171. You sure are naive about who controls a PAC - the mother organization, NRA in this case.

And who the heck do you think is on NRA's board - - Grover Norquist, Ollie North, John Bolton, Teddy Nugent, and a bunch more eight wing bigots.

[Hoyt]

94. No one is stepping up because states have pretty much given NRA monopoly to spread their propaganda

to those who love guns. That crowd pretty much accepts what the NRA tells them, and it ain't limited to just guns.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

97. No one is stepping up due to the cost, not because states have capitulated

But if it concerns you that much, I suggest you start one.

[Hoyt]

102. States, and pro-gunners, have given monopoly power to NRA.

Even you believe and spread their gun BS.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Nonsense Its not a black letter monopoly and many gun owners are not NRA members. Create your own

if it bothers you that much. You have all you need to get started.

I do believe that the NRA provides good training curriculum and so do the legislatures in blue states. How is that BS?

[Hoyt]

130. Supposedly Lanza & his mom weren't members either. Yet they subscribed to NRA's right wing BS.

[MADem]

105. I honestly don't care if they started as a sewing club.

They aren't that now, and they haven't been for a long time.

All this conversation about what they "used" to be (like pro-gun control) is simply dancing about and trying to distract.

They're a bunch of nuts, run by a screaming, foaming at the mouthe nutter. And they have a monopoly on a lot of stuff, like training, because they've insinuated their way into government by making it too easy for states to abdicate their own duties.

Time to cut that cord.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

113. The training side provides the best stuff out there and no one else is stepping up.

States could do their own thing, CA certainly does. The VPC or the Brady Bunch could try it. Be about the most effective thing they have done in terms of firearms safety.

Perhaps you would like the blue legislatures that required effective training to reverse themselves and drop the requirement. That is what the NRA would like them to do.

[MADem]

129. No one else is stepping up because the NRA pays people to maintain the monopoly.

They make it easy and they make it cheap, and for their trouble, they get access to lists of future members to target.

"The best stuff out there?" It's the only stuff out there in most jurisdictions--doesn't make it the best, not by a long shot.

You're defending the indefensible. You do see that, I trust? You really can't be that obtuse.

This is a monopoly, run by lobbyists, for the purposes of enriching themselves. The salaries at that lobbying outfit are OBSCENE. It's not a charity, and they are not nice guys.

Your last paragraph is just lame and lazy thinking--come on....the answer to a corrupt entity having oversight for a necessary program is.... (wait for it...)

..... to get rid of the program?

Surely you can do better than that. And the "blue legislatures" comment? You're really pulling down your drawers with that type of (quick, quick, let's make it all 'political') talk.

This isn't about Red v. Blue. It's about sanity, and the NRA doesn't argue from a point of sanity. Or don't you listen when that lickspittle jackass LaPierre opens his convulsive and twisted mouth?

How about letting the state run the show, and not sell the names of participants to gun/ammo/peripheral equipment manufacturers? Cut the lobbying organization, run by assclowns who make MILLIONS off of the dues and the mailing lists, out of the picture entirely. Gut their influence. Do it RIGHT.

Suck it up, ask Canada how they manage--we might learn a little something.

[MADem]

112. "No one is stepping up to do it." Perhaps that is the FIRST step towards getting a divorce from

those NRA nutters.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

114. Start with your legislature then and have them drop the requirement.

or start a competing organization. Choice is yours.

[MADem]

139. No one is suggesting that the requirement be dropped--that is a strawman you keep shopping.

There should be MORE training, not less.

And the choice is not mine--if it were, I'd grab my camo-painted magic wand and the deed would have been done well before Newtown.

Good luck getting "your legislature" to do anything--they're all in the pockets of the NRA, thanks to this unhealthy, hellish lather-rinse-repeat meat grinder they've created, where a good chunk of the money they collect from the sucker-marks they cultivate goes to bribe legislators to look the other way while they abuse the citizenry.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

140. The NRA controls the MA legislature?

[MADem]

145. Now youre pretending you don't know how their "Political Victory Fund" controls and

muzzles gun debate by targeting politicians and assigning them "grades" for compliance with NRA dictates? In all fifty states and in federal elections? The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, that's their motto.

I'm sorry, I really am surprised at you. I didn't expect such a disingenuous "What, who me? Why, I never!" approach to conversation about this important topic from you.

Samples:
http://votesmart.org/interest-group/126/rating/1285#.UVdSsxyG2So
http://bluemassgroup.com/2013/02/dan-winslow-a-from-massachusetts-nra/
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/senate-races/277917-scott-brown-may-lose-nra-support-in-next-run
http://radioboston.wbur.org/2013/01/16/nra-gun-control-massachusetts

[MADem]

111. If the state "requires by law" that someone take a class,

then the state should develop that class, provide that class, make changes to that class and be responsible for the content of that class, not outsource it to lobbyists who have a very specific agenda, with leadership that is, on a good day, crazed.

Why not outsource high school health classes to lobbyists from Merck and Trojan? That's about how much sense it makes. How about outsourcing driver's ed to auto industry lobbyists?

If the state has a standard, the state needs to teach to that standard themselves, be responsible for the content of their curriculum, and not allow lobbyists with an agenda to assume their duties and gain access to a list--a list of people who own guns--for their own purposes. It's like "the state" is doing their cold-calling FOR them. It's unsupportable from a privacy standpoint, IMO. The NRA has no business knowing if I or anyone else even has an INTEREST in guns, never mind that anyone took a state-mandated course. The state needs to stop delivering NRA membership lists on a plate to the NRA by demanding that gun owners do business with these lobbyists. It has nothing to do with how long the class is--it has to do with public entities outsourcing their licensing "requirements" to lobbyists with a clear and selfish agenda.

Canada manages it--why can't we?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

117. Generally the states approve the content and the NRA does not know who took the classes

The classes are put on by in state organizations (gun clubs, ranges, etc), not the NRA. NRA creates curriculum that is supplemented by local instructors. There is no requirement to submit names to the NRA.

Much of what concerns you is not happening to begin with.

[MADem]

125. Oh, horseshit. The state has abdicated their duty.

"Generally" the state's oversight is more likely something of the order of "nil."

The NRA does not know who took the classes? Really? However can they issue a "certificate" like they did to Adam Lanza if they didn't know his damn name? How were they able to acknowledge that they did, indeed, issue him a certificate and it wasn't a forgery that he created on his very own computer if they didn't know his damn name?

Come on. You're straining the bounds of credulity in an effort to prosecute a failed argument. That mailing list probably gets to that uglyass building by Dulles airport and is distributed for a price to gun and ammo manufacturers (to say nothing of those cheesy hangers-on who produce all sorts of "peripheral" equipment, from hunting gear and gun-centric clothing to specialty "I'm a Big Shot" holsters to body armor) before the certificates are even printed and mailed out.

Those clowns can call themselves a "non-profit" but that's only because they pay themselves obscenely hefty salaries, and there's no "profit" left over after they do that. It reminds me of Susan Komen's sister, paying herself and her board pals millions to run a "non-profit" while jumping in bed with the right wing to cut Planned Parenthood out of their sphere, screwing women out of affordable health care, and pretending to give a shit about them at the same time. Craven opportunism is craven opportunism.

[tblue]

21. No ‘Member Relationship' sounds like lawyer talk

I don't trust anything they say anyway.

[Evasporque]

22. Like anyone thinks the NRA is a functional enough organization to keep records...

All they do is take gun crazies' money and lobby congress for the gun mfg industry.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. The NRA has a huge infrastructure devoted to training and records

Its the part most people never see.

[Remmah2]

25. What kind of college degree do printing majors get?

Any kind they want.

[Nitram]

27. I wonder why

quite a few commenters here are just ignoring posts by residents of CT requires residents to take an NRA course to get a handgun. That means every handgun owner has an NRA certificate, whether or not they are NRA members.

[Squinch]

31. I wonder why the NRA isn't horrified that they issued a certificate of competence to Adam Lanza.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. NRA did not issue it

It was issued by a certified instructor after finishing a class using the NRA training material. It was most likely offered by a shooting facility of some sort.

[Remmah2]

32. A lot of police departments have NRA based training.

I guess the police departments are corrupt and evil.



WTF we'll all be accused of being NRA apologist.

[MADem]

38. Why does the state "deputize" the NRA to do their work for them?

No one is "ignoring" that fact, but it certainly is troubling. It's an unhealthy relationship. The NRA is a de facto arm of the government, if one has to go through them to receive a government benefit.

That's just wrong.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

72. The issue is the state requirement for training, which is an overall good thing

The NRA is the overwhelmingly dominant firearms training organization in the US. It trains and certifies instructors, provides course material, and expendables. It is also pretty good stuff.

Other organizations could do it too, but its a very low margin operation and startup costs would be huge with no real increase in value.

CT could do like MD did when they ripped off the Motorcycle Safety Foundation class material and offer it themselves.

[Bay Boy]

78. I feel you have a point there...

...but in all these years no one else has stepped up to offer the training.

[MADem]

106. "The state" needs to "step up."

It's not like no one else can teach this stuff. People in other countries learn firearms safety without the NRA over their shoulder.

Perhaps our neighbors to the north might teach us a thing or two on how it's done:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/safe_sur/cour-eng.htm

[ProgressiveProfessor]

121. They have...they certify curricula taught my local instructors

If the states that require training are willing to create it and supply it for free, I would be good for it.

Based on my experience in MD with motorcycles, it would never happen.

[MADem]

138. I don't think the states should provide the training for free.

I think they should run the damn monopoly, and charge a hefty ( a "this is important and thus, you should appreciate it by understanding the value in dollar terms&quot price for it. The money collected should go to a Gun Victim's Fund.

No one values that which they get for free. The NRA doesn't offer their course for free, either, but they need to be put out of the "government license certification" business. Cut off their ready access to NAMES, and you cut off their access to new sucker-members and their continued source of income.

Break the cycle. It's past time.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

141. You continue to ignore that the NRA does not do the training, does not get paid for the training, &

has no access to attendee names.

They supply part of the state approved curriculum, a role that is open to anyone.

[MADem]

143. You continue to ignore that the NRA does do the training,

(it's NRA members who are trained BY the NRA at NRA Instructor Certification courses who do this training), that they do get "paid" (through the sale and lobbyist-pumping of member lists provided by the instructors when they are submitted so that "certificates" can be issued), and they have COMPLETE access to attendee names, which are needed in order to prepare and issue Certificates of Competion.

How do they get the names to issue the certificates they send out? Does Karnac the Magnificent hold an envelope to his turban and provide them?

How do they certify that "their" instructors (the ones you say they don't have) remain in good standing (a requirement to be a "certified" NRA instructor), if "their" instructors don't send them reports certifying the number of "hands-on" hours they have taught each of their sucker-students?

Please.

[Marrah_G]

48. It is the same in Mass

[Comrade_McKenzie]

28. Terrorist training camps and manuals right here in America...

Teaching Americans to kill each other on a regular basis.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

87. It is state required training

[Bay Boy]

35. Whether he was or not...

...do you think anyone on either side of the gun control issue will care?

[Myrina]

39. "Don't believe what the certificate on our letterhead says, believe what we tell you"

Liars.

[Marrah_G]

47. In the state of MA the handgun safety certificate required is an NRA course

So I have one of those certificates, but I am not a member of the NRA.

When my guy went to get his CCW we thought it was a good idea for all members of the household to take the course.

There is no non-NRA course that you can take.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. What was the "indoctrination" level in the course you took?

That seems to be a real concern of some posting in this thread.

[MADem]

118. How about privacy? Why should the NRA have ready access to a mailing list by teaching a class?

Gee, not only do they know you took the class, they know what sorts of firearms you're interested in, what your age is, a good idea of how much money you make (did you take the class in tony Wellesley or a downscale part of Western MA?) and a lot of stuff they just have no damn business knowing. They can then turn around and sell your private information to weapons and ammo manufacturers, so they can begin the easy work of separating you and the cash in your wallet--and they'll make money providing that information to the people who will pester you to make a purchase. The gun owner is a patsy, targeted by the NRA on behalf of manufacturers with a relationship to the gun industry, who is used for pure profit.

If the state demands adherence to a standard, the state needs to play an active role in certifying the standard.

At the very least, they should not outsource the standard to ... LOBBYISTS. And that's what they've done.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

120. NRA does not teach the classes and does not have access to attendee rosters

The states already certify the curriculum, and you and others are free to create alternatives.

Local instructors are not lobbyists

[MADem]

134. NRA does teach the classes. They train the instructors, who are card-carrying NRA members.

You're really playing the wide-eyed innocent, here. Go to their website and do some reading--pay particular attention re: how they PAY their members to "host" training facilities.

Please. The NRA is their membership. The membership of the NRA teaches those classes and provides the names back to the HQ, to be massaged, targeted for membership pitches and "special offers," and added to a mailing list that is sold for Big Money to interested corporate entities. That's how they make their money. And the big wigs in that outfit are paid millions, so business is good for that "non-profit."

Your obvious bias doesn't help your argumentative talents, which are normally better than what you're giving me, here. The NRA "profit cycle" is elementary to anyone who looks with a clear eye at how these bozos run their shop.

Sit yourself down, click on this link, and READ. Slowly, carefully, every paragraph. Look at those dollar amounts. This is not a charitable organization--it's Big Business, and you--and everyone else taking their little "certified" courses--are what the best con men would call "marks." It's a much nicer word than "sucker," but it means the same thing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2012/12/21/what-the-nras-wayne-lapierre-gets-paid-to-defend-guns/

[Hoyt]

177. Funny, you have been lobbying for guns ever since you began posting in gungeon.

I'm betting NRA certified instructors don't bad mouth the right wingers who certify them.

[struggle4progress]

50. "The Lanzas swallowed our propaganda but never gave us any money!"

[Bolo Boffin]

52. Privatizing the profits, outsourcing the liabilities. n/t

[struggle4progress]

54. !

[AngryOldDem]

60. Of course not.

[moondust]

71. Of course not.

Training and sanctioning a mass murderer of small children? The NRA? That certificate is a forgery I tells ya! He probably bought it on the Internets! I'll bet he's never even been to Oklahoma!

Nope, wasn't us.

[Little Star]

76. The NRA loved having their name on those certificates until they didn't. n/t

[MADem]

151. A name on an NRA certificate is a name

and an address and a phone number and an e-mail address and a date of birth/gender listing on an NRA mailing list, which is worth Big Money to telemarketers, corporate pitchmen and others looking to separate cash from the wallets of people in specific demographics.

Those membership lists, certificate lists, and RKBA Defender Donation lists are a gold mine unto themselves--a gift that keeps on giving, a commodity for sale that is refreshed every time someone joins, takes a course, or makes a political donation. It's a great way for a non-profit to make a tidy enough profit to allow their leaders to be paid a million a year or more.

[Little Star]

155. Good point. n/t

[hatrack]

128. Why would it make any difference if either of them were members?

If that were the case, wouldn't the NRA be standing proud behind the constitutional rights of this mass murderer, and this victim?

[rdharma]

170. "wouldn't the NRA be standing proud behind the constitutional rights of this mass murderer?"

&feature=player_embedded

Probably not!

[Initech]

179. Move along nothing to see here!!!!!