Pope washes women's feet in break with church law

[onehandle]

Source: AP



ROME (AP) — In his most significant break with tradition yet, Pope Francis washed and kissed the feet of two young women at a juvenile detention center — a surprising departure from church rules that restrict the Holy Thursday ritual to men.

No pope has ever washed the feet of a woman before, and Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists, who lamented he had set a "questionable example." Liberals welcomed the move as a sign of greater inclusiveness in the church.

Speaking to the young offenders, including Muslims and Orthodox Christians, Francis said that Jesus washed the feet of his disciples on the eve of his crucifixion in a gesture of love and service.

"This is a symbol, it is a sign. Washing your feet means I am at your service," Francis told the group, aged 14 to 21, at the Casal del Marmo detention facility in Rome.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/pope-washes-womens-feet-break-church-law-002454620.html

[Warpy]

1. Yes, he was supposed to have a dignified ceremony

with plenty of candles and incense, washing the feet of fellow clergy. Instead, he went to a prison and washed the feet of a few people who probably needed it, prison hygiene being pretty minimal.

He's going to shake them up on form, if not substance. Good for him, those old boys need a good shaking.

[JI7]

2. good for him, i hope he sticks to serving the poor rather than wanting to take away

rights of women and gays.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. agreed

[bluedigger]

3. It's a powerfull symbolic gesture.

He's going to be an interesting Pope.

[840high]

4. I am Catholic and very

pleased with this Pope.

[Katashi_itto]

5. I am a lapsed Catholic. I like this Pope.

[LiberalLoner]

77. I'm an ELCA Lutheran. I like this Pope.

[goclark]

127. I am Methodist

and I Like this Pope!

[PolitFreak]

137. I'm an agnostic

And I like this pope.

[Phillip McCleod]

142. I'm a communist

no, just kidding. i couldn't resist.

[Odin2005]

149. I'm an Atheist and I like this Pope.

Jesuits are awesome.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

6. Me too.

Last edited Fri Mar 29, 2013, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

I sang "So Must You Do" in a catholic church tonight during the foot washing ritual. I didn't see if any of the feet were women's, but I will be sure to bring this up tomorrow night. They are Franciscans and thrilled so far. This effort to include women though may really test them.

[caseymoz]

17. I'm an atheist and I'm so far pleased with him.

So far, everything he's said and done has been laudable.

[JusticeForAll]

25. Ditto! Great post.

[SkyDaddy7]

39. I guess I will be the one who says...

When are folks going to stop being gullible to "symbolic gestures" & demand REAL CHANGE?

Just saying...This Pope has done nothing to help victims of all the child rapist the church has helped avoid prosecution or reverse any anti-women policies the church has held onto for far too long.

Sorry, all i have seen from this Pope is smoke & mirrors designed to make folks feel comfy without changing one thing. Hell, it has worked for centuries so I can't blame the Pope for doing what has kept the Boy's Club in power for all this time.

[Pab Sungenis]

42. He's only been Pope for a few weeks.

And if you understand anything about the Catholic Church, understand this: it's ALL symbols and rituals. Especially at this time of year.

The washing of the feet symbolizes the time when Christ washed the feet of his Apostles on the evening of the Last Supper. By washing the feet of women, Pope Francis has sent the message that he considers women to be on the same level as men in the Ministry.

Every single tongue in the Vatican will be wagging about this today, and the old guard are extremely shaken up. If he survives (and they don't pull a John Paul I on him), there's going to be real change over the next several months.

Easter is a time for tradition and ritual. It's not a time for change. That is coming next, with Pentecost.

[Tumbulu]

83. well said

and true.

Very promising indeed!

[caseymoz]

54. He's only been in two weeks.

I said I was encouraged. I didn't say "Oh, finally he's turning the Church around." Encouraged is something better than what I felt when John Paul and Benedict started, where the disgust started in the first weeks. Maybe the better word is "relieved."

And whether I'm "comfy" or not, it's not like my initial emotion is going to do anything to change the course of the Church. So, there's nothing to hold me responsible for. I'm just a spectator.

He hasn't said anything about sex, birth control or abortion, and the hints so far are that he'd rather the emphasis of the Church be on helping the poor. I think he's making his intentions clear, and it's refreshing, if not substantive, yet.

[Sherman A1]

76. Precisely

The RCC has a whole lot of baggage to address, but I think giving the guy a chance might be in order.

[crim son]

95. I agree.

Let's wait before leaping to judgement. I'm an ex-Catholic and not a fan of anything that has to do with the Church, but if the new guy turns out to be a good man in the sense that he has so far indicated, that isn't a bad thing. Maybe it's all bullshit, but maybe it isn't and if it isn't, any good he does is still good.

[hollysmom]

128. I am ex-catholic as well

I expect this pope to be human with gifts and flaws - I accept people as complex and I can like and dislike part of them- I am not sure how a good person can do the politics necessary to rise to the top. I will wait and see - he may be more clever than we know.

This is a positive note to start out on though, that and telling jokes when he was introduced.

[Liberalynn]

139. I'm an ex-Catholic

and I am willing to keep an open mind and hope he makes real change in the long run. At any rate I like him better than Ratzi, so far. I also like that he is putting the focus back on the poor.

[Beacool]

56. The Pope has been in office for only two weeks.

He may be the Pope, but he's not a miracle worker. Give the man a chance.

[No Vested Interest]

61. He hasn't even unpacked his suitcases yet.

[merrily]

111. He never has to unpack a suitcase.

[Shivering Jemmy]

152. Also he needs to build a T.A.R.D.I.S.

As far as I'm concerned, unless he uses the Vatican's vast resources to construct a T.A.R.D.I.S. it's all just a dog-and-pony show.

[Android3.14]

35. Recovering Catholic here as well

It's interesting to see this guy charming the socks off of people. I like him so far as well.

[AngryOldDem]

121. Same here, and I do, too.

I'm still kind of skeptical, but this man seems to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. So, to that end, .

I understand that him going to the prison did not sit well with some Catholics. I figure, if "religious" people are offended by faith being put into action, you must be doing something right.

I think so far Francis is showing just how far the Church has strayed from its roots, and mission. He won't be around long enough to entirely right the ship, but I think true reform could very well be starting with him.

[freshwest]

33. There he is, washing the feet of a female prisoner in blue jeans, saying he's at their service.

That had to have been strangely enough to some, an uplifting experience for those young women, knowing that they were equal and worth cherishing. This is a most unusual man.

[undeterred]

96. It reminds me of Princess Diana going to visit AIDS patients in the 80s

and being unafraid to hold their hands and sit with them, unafraid of being "contaminated". Just a video clip of her doing that meant so much.

[freshwest]

98. One person can, with acceptance and approval, encourage those who have suffered greatly.

I knew a man who got a job helping intellectually disabled young men with behavioral problems from abuse and PTSD who lacked judgment and impulse control. They kept failing and began to regard themselves as monsters.

He showed them that no only was he not afraid of them, not only did he accept them, but that he approved of them. And that he loved and enjoyed their company, always. He was an old fashioned Christian who didn't preach, but believed in unconditional love.

The changes in the group were dramatic and long lasting, even after his sudden death. The human heart can be battered and bruised by things that cannot be uttered. I never knew a man who radiated as much love as that man.

I hope that the world will come to respect those who come to heal no matter who they are or who they come to help. It's not that hard to do, once one is willing to do so. It's important.

[undeterred]

106. Absolutely!

I knew a woman who was a doctor in the prison system in the Chicago area - she was kind and compassionate to people who had never received an ounce of it - or any needed medical treatment - in their lives. When she tried to take a medical history many of the prisoners were totally unfamiliar with the concept. Nobody had ever asked them if they had been sick or injured as a child. She found that a great many had head injuries and other serious problems for which they never received treatment.

She saw them as people. They treated her with respect, even though many of them were not very respectful towards women.

[fitman]

52. This Pope is more liberal

than he is leading on..I think he is going to be a friend to us all here. Just a gut feeling...

[No Vested Interest]

62. I think this reflects his upbringing and life

in Latin America - the New World.
Yes, we are different than the Old World - europeans.
We are more egalitarian from birth.

[merrily]

112. Wasn't he brought up by Europeans though? His folks were Italians.

I am not sure why I said that. I don't mean to imply anything negative by it.

[No Vested Interest]

114. I'm sure when you reflect on the children of immigrants

You'll realize that they want very much to be part of the culture in which they are living.
That is the experience in the U.S., for the most part.

And, also for the most part, those children cannot escape it - their schooling, their neighbors, their friends are in the present.

Do you have reason to believe his Italian-born parents left Italy to live in another continent, in a country with another language, without wanting to adapt to that country?

Perhaps reading a biography of Jorge (not Giorgio) Bergoglio will give more insight into his Argentinian identity.

[merrily]

115. I AM the child of immigrants. It is very different from being raised by parents born in the U.S. and

also very different from being raised in the country where my parents were born.

Do you have reason to believe his Italian-born parents left Italy to live in another continent, in a country with another language, without wanting to adapt to that country?

Did you miss the part of my post where I said that I didn't know why I posted it and meant nothing negative by it?

But why you do assume that his parents desire to adapt to a country means that being raised by Venezuelans is identical to being raised by Italians?

And, with all due respect, I don't think that either of us can speak to what went on in his parents' minds. Probably, not even he can

Perhaps reading a biography of Jorge (not Giorgio) Bergoglio will give more insight into his Argentinian identity.

Not really. I feel sure that someone writing a book about me--not that anyone would--would consider me a typical American of my education level, etc

I would have considered myself that until a few years ago, when I spent a lot of time with relatives from "the old coutry." It was a eye opener.

[No Vested Interest]

117. I understand you meant nothing negative

in your first comment. Perhaps it was just a "throwaway" comment.

At risk of giving too much importance to my casual response to the original theme, I'll conclude my comments on this thread.

Happy Easter.

[merrily]

119. No, I do realize now why I posted it and it was not a throwaway comment at all.

Nor was it negative toward Italians, the Pope or his parents.

I posted my first response to you precisely because I am the child of immigrants and I know from first hand experience that being raised by Italian immigrants in Venezuela is not the same as being raised by New world parents in the New World. He is neither totally a New World Pope nor totally an Old World Pope.

So far, 2 out of 2 of your posts to me have been condescending.

I hope that changes the next time we have an exchange..

[Mortos]

148. I am an atheist and I like this pope.

[snooper2]

154. He would be MTV interesting if he smoked a joint

[No Vested Interest]

162. He has only one lung -

so I don't think that's going to happen.

[AlbertCat]

7. What a bunch of theatre

Well theatre did begin as a religious thing.

[merrily]

120. I did not know that! I am going to google.

[Beacool]

8. He's been doing it for years.

In Buenos Aires, even as Cardinal, he would go and work in the slums. He would take the bus and wear a simple black cassock. CNN got on a bus and went to the slum where he would go regularly. One woman cried when she recounted how he had once washed her feet. At the time she had been a drug addict. There are many similar stories.

He once talked to a man who had asked for his help. He had a very sick son and the type of medication he needed was very expensive (even though Argentina has socialized medicine). The man said that Cardinal Bergoglio helped him and also promised to pay his rent for two years if he finished his degree. The man said that he did just that and that now he's a computer programmer.

This is a very different Pope. I have high hopes that he can actually tackle the corruption within the Curia and the Vatican Bank.

[The Second Stone]

16. This is good to know

I hope they don't kill him. But hey, it's Maunday Thursday, and you know who the Romans did kill on this day 2000 (or so) years ago?

[The Second Stone]

59. Now that I think about it, the crucifixtion

was on Good Friday.

[freshwest]

101. That's very heartening news. Thanks for posting this.

[Beacool]

109. No problem...............

[CoffeeCat]

9. This is meaningful...

...if it it backed up by real change.

Symbolic gestures are only meaningful--if they are backed by meaningful actions.

Furthermore--in my heart, this institution will never, ever be right--until it deals with the decades of child molestation and cover up--and makes authentic, serious and impactful decisions regarding this crisis.

If your house is on fire with the children in it--you need to take care of that, before you pretty up the place with landscaping, lighting and other external gestures.

[loudsue]

10. They're going to assassinate this guy. Those religious wingnuts don't play this game.

Very dangerous, if you ask me. Look what happened to Pope John Paul #1.

The religious hierarchy in the Catholic church does NOT like to acknowledge women in any way. To the Catholic church, every woman since Mother Mary has been a major disappointment to Gawd.

[Beacool]

12. I fear for his safety too.

Between the extremists, mentally ill people and those in the Curia who will not appreciate any attempt at reform, this Pope better watch his back.

[villager]

13. JP #1 was assassinated precisely because he *was* going after the Vatican Bank, yes?

They may let this Pope get away with symbolic gestures.

They let Martin Luther King "get away" with integrating buses, schools, hotels, et al. But when he started going after the money in a serious way -- the Poor People's March on Washington -- well, then the ever-ready "lone nut" card was deployed.

[Ter]

55. He also wasn't tough on commies

The next Pope was staunchly anti-communist.

[starroute]

24. He's a Jesuit, and the Jesuits are tough

They have a reputation for not taking any shit from anyone. John Paul I didn't have anybody covering his back. Francis does.

[No Vested Interest]

27. There are quite a few Jesuit martyrs

But I hope you're correct.

[starroute]

41. Most of those were killed doing missionary work

And more of the rest were English Catholics who were convicted of treason in the late 1500s.

My recollection is that John Paul I was isolated and almost abandoned in the Vatican. I don't think you'll be seeing that here. For that matter, the very fact that Francis is in no hurry to move into the Papal apartments may be a statement that he's not going to let something like that happen.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

92. These days the Roman Catholic Church is attempting to overcome negative preconceptions....

So in a way it is doing missionary work as they are trying to reintroduce themselves in a world that has moved on.

[freshwest]

102. I wonder if this is why he decided on different living quarters, not as isolated as the big place.

Sorry, I don't know the names of these buildings or apartments.

[okasha]

144. He has chosen to live

in the Santa Marta guesthouse, and to have his meals in the dining room with visitors.

[freshwest]

145. Thanks for the name of the place. Is there a shorter name for the official residence?

He seems to be a real people person and I like him.

[hughee99]

57. They'll let this slide. When he starts fucking with their money, THAT's when

he needs to really watch his back.

[JDPriestly]

69. Have you read "In God's Name" by Yallop?

I'm not convinced about the murder of the pope, but considering how the financial conspiracy involving Banco Ambrosiano and the Vatican Bank was organized and executed, it's a possibility. That Pope John Paul I was murdered is still a conspiracy theory as far as I am concerned, but the book is amazing because it tells the story of a real and very, very complex conspiracy that was not just theoretical, that can be proved through documents, that actually happened.

I don't know what to think about Pope John Paul I, but if this new pope continues to follow the policies he appears to be setting now, he may meet a lot of resistance to say the least.

Good for him.

[starroute]

108. I think that at the very least, John Paul was shamefully neglected

It's been a while since I read discussions of the matter -- but my strong impression was that even if he died of natural causes, there should have been warning signs over that month that he was not well. But there was no one close to him who either knew enough or cared enough to notice and take action.

[TygrBright]

11. OMG, he washed feet attached to VAGINAS? OK, I'm sorta impressed. n/t

[MADem]

32. I think they were attached to ankles, but the feet belonged to women! nt

[davidthegnome]

37. Are you sure?

You sure they weren't just walking vaginas?

For some reason, this one cracked me up.

[MADem]

43. I'm no doctor, but I do remember a song about bones that laid out the pattern pretty clearly! nt

[ReRe]

14. I, too, am glad to see a Pope...

... practice what he preaches. What I can't wait to see is the Blessing of the Pets!
My kids always got a kick out of taking our dog to church to be Blessed. (Held in the parking lot.) It should really go over big, since he chose the name "Francis I."

[Zoeisright]

15. Now if would do something meaningful,

like sell off half of the Vatican's billions to actually HELP the poor, I might be impressed. Oh, and quit discriminating against women and the LGTB community. Oh, and quit saying condoms are evil, therefore killing millions.

On edit: Oh yeah, and quit hiding pedophiles.

[backwoodsbob]

30. damn your right

he hasn't transformed the church from top to bottom...personally beheaded any offenders ..and gave all the churches wealth to the poor...all in one month.
My God what an evil man

[caseymoz]

18. No, this church isn't misogynistic.

It always has an ironclad excuse for why it treats women as the lesser sex.

[Politicalboi]

19. LOL!

Hey now, some here support groups like this. I was shown that today, but I'm the one out of line.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

21. Don't feel bad.

I've been called a bigot for defending myself against religious zealot homophobes, and just today someone on this board told me they associate HIV with gays. We have a long way to go.

[Arctic Dave]

20. I appreciate the gesture.

Now let's see some real change.


Shit. If they pull their collective heads out of their asses I might go for a Mass.

[Hekate]

22. That is seriously touching my heart.

I once came into a ritual space and to my surprise some women had prepared a foot-washing for the participants. It was one of the most comforting, kind, sensual and yet spiritual experiences I have ever had. The warm water, the soothing hands, the rough dry towel...

The custom started in a time and place where people wore sandals and walked hot dusty roads. It was offered to guests as a courtesy for their comfort when they arrived, but the washing was not performed by the master or mistress of the household, but by a servant.

In the stories about Jesus, there came a time when as an example of humility and service to his followers, he washed their feet.

That is the origin of the custom of Maundy Thursday, which is practiced not only by Roman Catholics but by several other Christian sects. As we just learned, when in Rome, the Pope and (male) clergy alone are the participants in this re-enactment of Jesus' example. Until now. Until this Pope. "As ye do even unto the least of these..."

I think Francis I is the real deal.

[OnyxCollie]

23. Foot fetishist. nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

47. Rec. n/t

[dencol]

26. Time to wash some gay feet.

He has a lot to make up for.

[caraher]

63. I'm sure he has

Whether he knew it or not.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. I assume the other poster meant he needs to do penance and offer humble apology for his years of

hate speech and anti gay activism. That he should confess his wrongs and recant his bigotry, make amends to the millions he has harmed, who offered no harm to him.

[caraher]

88. That would be a good start

I'm not holding my breath on that, though. I suspect he'll wash them literally long before washing them metaphorically...

[Jamastiene]

130. That would be nice.

I feel like that Fox Mulder poster that said "I want to believe." With this Pope, I want to like the guy, but because of the horrible things he has said about us, I just can't. He needs to apologize for that and make amends. There is no need to be homophobic.

[Alamuti Lotus]

28. style over substance; still not slightly impressed with the junta's cleric

[Katashi_itto]

81. Whatever. Embrace thy cynicism, may it warm you at night.

I prefer to allow myself to hope.

[Alamuti Lotus]

94. For what reason do you have hope in such figures?

I know the source of my cynicism (and yes, it keeps me nice and toasty), but I'm curious at yours. I would retort (in advance, apparently) that there is too much history and too much repeating precedent to harbor such delusions, but I am open to convincing arguments to the contrary.

[Poll_Blind]

29. It freaks me out when I see religious leaders acting like the figures from their religion.

I'm from America, and Earth. These things...do not normally happen here.

Kudos to the Pope. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a pope do anything that actually made me think of Jesus.

If he starts talking all Matthew 19:21, somebody with a red beanie is going to pop a cap in his ass!

PB

[freshwest]

103. Isn't that what 'the vow of poverty' means?

Matthew 19:21 (KJV)

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

He's already adopted that life. It sounds no different than a monk of any persuasion.

JMHO. And I'm not Catholic.

[jberryhill]

31. If the pope is going to wash your feet...

...do you wash your feet first? Or do you get them dirty just so he'll have something to wash off?

[Beacool]

60. Personally, if I knew the Pope was going to wash my feet,

I would have scrubbed them until they shone. I would have also ran to get a pedi so there weren't any rough spots.

Superficial of me, because I doubt that the Pope would care.

[pnwmom]

71. These are young prisoners so I think their hygiene and pedi opportunities are limited. n/t

[Beacool]

73. The pedi would be out of the question.

But they probably get to shower once a day.

[pnwmom]

74. Maybe not. I remember reading that the other prisoners

around Amanda Knox thought she was crazy for wanting to take daily showers instead of using the bidet.

[Beacool]

97. Ewwwwww..............

The bidet is fine, but not enough.

[Peace Patriot]

34. Good gesture! Tells me he may know what the problem is...

...and that it is very, very old, indeed, and deeply rooted, way back in the 5th century--the original sin of the Church-as-institution.

It was a specific crime that led to all the others and that sent the Church down the wrong road into woman-hatred from which it has never recovered.

In the 5th century, a woman named Hypatia, a mathematician and philosopher, who was the beloved teacher of bishops and other clergy, was skinned alive on the streets of Alexandria by a mob of monks under the direction of a very evil man, Bishop Cyril, who went on to cause a riot and sword fights at a Church synod over the weird subject of the virginity of Jesus' mother. The man was sick, but became a "Father of the Church"--the first to call himself a "patriarch"--and was later canonized as a "saint," by which the Church means that he is in Heaven with God.

What had Hypatia done? She was a brilliant, powerful and highly respected figure. She was a Pagan but that does not explain the horror of her death at the hands of allegedly 'christian' monks. Alexandria was famous for its learning and its tolerance of all religions, philosophies and cultures. It was a haven for the Jews, especially the Alexandria Library, when she headed at that time. She was friends with Orestes, the Roman governor of Alexander. Like the rightwing of today in the U.S, Cyril was trying to undermine the civil government and subject it to Church rule. He sent his mobs against the Jews, confiscated their property and drove them out of Alexandria. Orestes opposed him, and they clashed several times. But neither does this explain the particular horror of Hypatia's murder.

Skinning alive in those days was intended to prevent the soul from going to Heaven. It was worse than death. It was eternal damnation.

Why did Hypatia merit eternal damnation, in this truly terrible form of murder? (--not to mention how Cyril ended up presumed into Heaven by Church "sainthood"; he is called Saint Cyril to this day.)

None of her works survived the crumbling of the Roman Empire. Probably they were burned. (Cyril's monks also attacked the Library.) An index indicates that she wrote several mathematical works. The only thing that remains are the letters of Bishop Sinesius of Ptolemais TO Hypatia. Sinesius had been her pupil and worshiped her. How is it that a Christian bishop considered Pagan Hypatia to be his greatest teacher? Interesting question.

There are hints in his letters to her (and also in certain other events that occurred around that time) that what she may have been embarked upon was peace between, and possibly even a synthesis of, Pagan and Christian teachings--the wedding of Pagan learning (which, in Hypatia's case, was embedded in highly ethical and high-minded neoplatonism) and Jesus' message of love for all, across tribal, religious and class lines.

Another feature of Paganism is worship of the Goddess--a particular target of "Fathers of the Church" like Cyril who took control of Church doctrine, or rather, established that there would be Church doctrine--rigid doctrine from which no one was permitted to deviate. This notion gained ascendance with the cementing of the Church with the power of the State, around the same time. One doctrine (all others anathematized), one Church, enforced by the brutal powers of king and emperor, with particular emphasis on casting out any group, leader or set of ideas that included the Goddess (such as the Christian neoplatonists of the time--the Gnostics) or anything remotely connected to the Goddess (such as the nature worship of the Pelagian Christians) or anything human (such as Jesus being born of a normal mother).

What seems to have seized this sick man Cyril's mind was loathing of women. He is the main force of that era for infecting the Church with this original sin. Jesus didn't hate or loathe women. In fact, in the Gnostic gospels he basically designates Mary Magdalen as head of the apostles. He says she is the only one of them who really understands his teaching. Cyril and his ilk burned those gospels, and somebody during that era grabbed a whole bunch of them, in willy-nilly fashion, as if in a hurry, and buried them in a cave in sealed jars in a desert near Alexandria (where they remained, undiscovered, until the 20th century). So there was obviously an underground movement, at the time--the same period as Hypatia's death--to preserve that which the Cyrils of the newly doctrine-ridden Church were trying to extinguish.

There is an underground Church that runs all through Church history--driven underground by people like Cyril--in which there is no such conflict with half the human race and no such loathing of women and rejection of the Goddess. This is the real Church--the Church of the People, not of the Prelates; the Church of the washing of feet, not the swishing of red robes and the crowning of kings. The washing of feet is a womanly act, a motherly act, a loving act. In doing it, Jesus made himself like a woman and made women (who were often the servants performing tasks like this) equal.

The male hierarchy, with its 1,500 years of misogyny dating back to "Saint' Cyril, turned that act into yet another exclusive male ritual. Pope Francis seems to have sensed its true origin and meaning. I doubt that this will result in reversal of the misogyny of Church doctrine or policy any time soon but it might start the process of bringing the underground Church--the real Church--aboveground. I think that Hypatia was an early activist in that underground Church, earnestly trying to direct bishops and monks onto a higher path of learning and tolerance, and she paid for it by an intolerant, woman-hating dogmatist trying to destroy her very soul, with the particular torture that he subjected her to.

To cleanse such a profound sin will take time. We obviously have quite a lot of sick male descendants of Cyril, quite abominably in positions of religious and moral authority. There is no easy cure for this. But I have to say that symbolism is a good way to begin. Symbols and symbolic acts can be very powerful in bringing about the deep, psychic change that is needed to overcome such a history of error, sin and crime. These men--bishops, cardinals, many priests--are deeply attached to the notion of their superiority--their primacy before God, their self-worship. They are also very, VERY attached to symbols, and need the help of symbols to overcome it. Maybe Pope Francis was intentional in this, or maybe only intuitively or dimly aware of it. Hard to say. But he seems to have good instincts.

[Pab Sungenis]

46. Thank you for that wonderful summary of the birth of misogyny in the Catholic Church.

It's one of the many dark stains on Church history, and one worth remembering and hopefully one day correcting.

It took until John Paul II for an apology to Galileo and the victims of the Inquisition. Maybe Francis will correct some of these myriad abuses of women.

[polly7]

48. Thank you for this. So interesting! nt.

[Turborama]

51. Fascinating post!

Makes one want of find out more, thanks for writing it.

I reckon it'd be an excellent OP for the new interfaith group and could generate a very interesting discusion.

[merrily]

122. Peace Patriot, that is a wonderful post.

As a separate issue, though, misogyny in Christianity dates back to the OT and Jewish traditions, centuries before the birth of Christ.

Misogyny is evident in the Bible from the time Adam says "The woman made me eat the fruit you forbade us to eat" and God did not laugh in Adam's face. Instead, God allows Adam's pathetic responsibility-shirking lie to stand as though it were, well, gospel.

According to Genesis, as a result of Eve's disobeying God by tasting the fruit and the by (snort) "making" Adam disobey God by tasting the fruit, the Garden of Eden was lost to humankind forever, at least in this world, and humankind was cursed to toil, feel pain, etc. And, according to the Catholic Church, every human born thereafter is born with "original sin." IOW, Eve was to blame for the loss of every good thing and to blame for the presence of every bad thing.

Later in the OT, we learn that a woman is "unclean" during her time of the month. (That is still true to Orthodox Jews, who refrain from contact with wives during that time.) In the NT, we learn that women are to submit to their husbands and to shut up in temple, saving any questions to ask their husbands at home. Both testaments are full of women that are either long suffering saints or sluts or schemers (although, sometimes the saints are schemers for a good cause).

And, while I do not know how or when this originated, a prayer said by Jewish men is "I thank God* every day that I am not a woman." (Many Jews do not say "God" or any synonym for God, but I did not know how else to convey the meaning of the line.)

[Tom Rinaldo]

136. I so appreciate the thought and effort that went into this post

I hope many get to read it.

[okasha]

146. Yes, please post this as an OP in Interfaith

A Christian friend, who is both a librarian and an artist, once told me that Hypatia is considered the patron saint of libraries. He has done several beautiful pieces in her honor.

[happyslug]

147. She died in a dispute between the Bishop of Alexandria AND the Governor of Alexandria

The Bishop and Governor of Alexandria (both Christians, as was the Emperor) had fallen into some sort of dispute. This dispute turn violent, even before Hypatia appears in the dispute. It appears she was an ally of the Governor, when the majority of the people supported the Bishop. This alliance seems to be the reason for her death. Peter a "Reader" of the local Church, who believed it was the counsel of Hypatia that prevented the Governor from re-conciliating with the Bishop, lead the mob against Hypatia and killed her. Please note the Christian writer of the incident call this Peter a fanatic, whose action was Anti-Christian. There is a later account, that is different, but it is more an attack on Hypatia then a reporting of the incident. This later report MAY be based on first hand reports we no longer have, but is generally given less weight then the Earlier report of the incident.

For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

Ecclesiastical History, Socrates Scholasticus[26]
Orestes, the governor of Alexandria, and Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria, found themselves in a bitter feud in which Hypatia would come to be one of the main points of contention. The feud, which took place in 415 AD, began over the matter of Jewish dancing exhibitions in Alexandria. Since these exhibitions attracted large crowds and were commonly prone to civil disorder of varying degrees, Orestes published an edict which outlined new regulations for such gatherings and posted it in the city's theater. Soon after, crowds gathered to read the edict, angry over the new regulations that had been imposed upon them. At one such gathering, Hierax, a Christian and devout follower of Cyril, read the edict and applauded the new regulations, which many people felt was an attempt to incite the crowd into sedition. In what Scholasticus suspected as Orestes' "…jealousy [of] the growing power of the bishops…[which] encroached on the jurisdiction of the authorities…", Orestes immediately ordered Hierax to be seized and publicly tortured in the theater.
Upon hearing of this, Cyril threatened the Jews of Alexandria with "the utmost severities" if harassment of Christians was not ceased at once. In response, the Jews of Alexandria grew only more furious over Cyril's threat, and in their anger they eventually resorted to violence against the Christians. They plotted to flush the Christians out at night by running through the streets, claiming that the Church of Alexander was on fire. When the Christians responded to what they were led to believe was the burning down of their church, "the Jews immediately fell upon and slew them", using rings to recognize one another in the dark, while killing everyone else in sight. When the morning came, the Jews of Alexandria could not hide their guilt, and Cyril, along with many of his followers, took to the city’s synagogues in search of the perpetrators of the night's massacre.
After Cyril found all of the Jews in Alexandria, he ordered them to be stripped of all their possessions, banished them from Alexandria, and allowed the remaining citizens to pillage the goods they left behind. With Cyril's banishment of the Jews, "Orestes [...] was filled with great indignation at these transactions, and was excessively grieved that a city of such magnitude should have been suddenly bereft of so large a portion of its population…". Because of this, the feud between Cyril and Orestes only grew stronger, and both men wrote to the emperor regarding the situation. Eventually, Cyril attempted to reach out to Orestes through several peace overtures, including attempted mediation and, when that failed, showed him the Gospels. Nevertheless, Orestes remained unmoved by such gestures.
Meanwhile, approximately 500 monks, who resided in the mountains of Nitria, and were "of a very fiery disposition", heard of the ongoing feud between the Governor and Bishop, and shortly thereafter descended into Alexandria, armed and prepared to fight alongside Cyril. Upon their arrival in Alexandria, the monks quickly intercepted Orestes' chariot in town and proceeded to bombard and harass him, calling him a pagan idolater. In response to such allegations, Orestes countered that he was actually a Christian, and had even been baptized by Atticus, the Bishop of Constantinople. The monks paid little attention to Orestes’ claims of Christianity, and one of the monks, by the name of Ammonius, struck Orestes in the head with a rock, which caused him to bleed profusely. At this point, Orestes’ guards fled for fear of their lives, but a nearby crowd of Alexandrians came to his aid, and Ammonius was subsequently secured and ordered to be tortured for his actions. Upon excessive torture, Ammonius died. Following the death of Ammonius, Cyril ordered that he henceforth be remembered as a martyr. Such a proclamation did not sit well with "sober-minded" Christians, as Scholasticus pointed out, seeing that he "suffered the punishment due to his rashness…[not because] he would not deny Christ", and this fact, according to Scholasticus, became more apparent to Cyril through general lack of enthusiasm for Ammonius's case for martyrdom.
Scholasticus then introduces Hypatia, the female philosopher of Alexandria and woman who would become a target of the Christian anger that grew over the feud. Daughter of Theon, and a teacher trained in the philosophical schools of Plato and Plotinus, she was admired by most men for her dignity and virtue. Of the anger she provoked among Christians, Scholasticus writes, Hypatia ultimately fell "victim to the political jealousy which at the time prevailed" - Orestes was known to seek her counsel, and a rumor spread among the Christian community of Alexandria in which she was blamed for his unwillingness to reconcile with Cyril. Therefore, a mob of Christians gathered, led by a reader (i.e. a minor cleric) named Peter whom Scholasticus calls a fanatic. They kidnapped Hypatia on her way home and took her to the "Church called Caesareum. They then completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles". Socrates Scholasticus was hence interpreted as saying that, while she was still alive, Hypatia's flesh was torn off using oyster shells (tiles; the Greek word is ostrakois, which literally means "oystershells" but the word was also used for brick tiles on the roofs of houses and for pottery sherds). Afterward, the men proceeded to mutilate her, and finally burn her limbs. When news broke of Hypatia's murder, it provoked great public denouncement, not only against Cyril, but against the whole Alexandrian Christian community. Scholasticus closes with a lament: "Surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort".

Here is a translation of the Actual report by
http://cosmopolis.com/alexandria/hypatia-bio-socrates.html
http://www.cosmopolis.com/alexandria/hypatia-bio-socrates.html

THERE WAS a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more. Yet even she fell victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them, therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles.* After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.

Here is a report of her in Isadore of Damascus, please note this is from the Suda of Constantinople, a 10th Century encyclopedia NOT a first hand or even second hand account, but one made 500 years after the event:
http://www.cosmopolis.com/alexandria/hypatia-bio-suda.html

http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin/search.pl?db=REAL&search_method=QUERY&login=guest&enlogin=guest&user_list=LIST&page_num=1&searchstr=hypatia&field=any&num_per_page=100

The Suda itself, if you want to read a 10th Century encyclopedia:
http://www.stoa.org/sol/

[madrchsod]

36. maybe he`ll bring the church into the modern world....

[davidthegnome]

38. I'm starting to like this guy...

Hope he doesn't get himself killed.

[tabasco]

40. Let that muhfugga start giving away the church treasures

to help the poor and we gonna see the first ever pope impeached for craziness!

[lunatica]

44. I like that he's wasting no time in establishing his new Church policies and agenda

I don't expect miracles at that level, but I do expect simple decency and humanity, and I see it here. At least thus far.

[Orsino]

45. Please let this herald significant reform. n/t

[polly7]

49. He seems so kind and compassionate, and much more involved with actual

people than any other I can remember. I'm very happy for the Catholic Church.

[Aristus]

50. This is good. He's living up to Jesus' instruction: "He who would be first,

must be the servant of all."

I'm not Catholic, but I appreciate his humility.

[bowens43]

53. BFD.... sell off the churches land and loot and give it to the poor then I'll be impressed.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

124. To be fair, all Christan churches, not just the Catholic ones.

[KansDem]

58. And the pedophile priests?

Any arrests yet?

[BlueManFan]

64. Kicking Up Dust To Evade the Real Issue

When Pope Frank opens the Vatican archives and releases Benny "The Rat" Ratzinger's pedo files, then there will be a break with tradition that says something about the "New" Catholic church. Unless and until, it's business as usual and the crooks are still getting away scot free.

[domchrist]

65. Washing women feet Pope disregards his own law in this matter

Popes, like dads, don’t have a choice in the matter
http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/
Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules. Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?
As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject). But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837). Pope Francis’ action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.
By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does he—to anticipate an obvious question—achieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time.
We’re not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis’ actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the pope’s simplicity).
Rather, re the Mandatum rite, we’re talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a ‘sacrament of disregard’ for Roman rules on a variety of other matters. Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy.
A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when it’s easier simply to ignore it?
It’s a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite.

[ArtiChoke]

70. My Mom

continues to be the greatest spiritual earth-bound teacher I have. I put my mother and father (deceased) ahead of the Pope because they came before the Pope. I wonder if the tradition of snatching young men from their parents and especially from their mothers off to seminary wasn't by design. And now that this tradition is fading away, the male priesthood will soon follow.

To those who desire change overnight, I'm reminded of the disciples who asked Jesus when he would restore the Jewish kingdom and how disappointed they would have been had he said in 1947.

As for the law, love god, love people, and...you're done!

[pnwmom]

72. He obviously does have a choice and he exercised it.

That's why I laugh when non-Catholics insist that all real Catholics try to follow the law to the letter.

I guess by their definition the Pope isn't a real Catholic.

[uppityperson]

93. Do you mean this? Trying to interpret what you wrote...

Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules.

Rules are to be born until you are old enough to make and break them.

Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?

What sort of example has the Pope set?

As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject).

You say you questions why this rite should be limited to adult males.

But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837).

Law says it should be limited to adult males.

Pope Francis’ action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.

The Pope has said that law is moot by doing this. Not a law any more.


By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does he—to anticipate an obvious question—achieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time.

You'd like this law to be gone. The pope has canceled the law. But by doing so he sets a questionable example.

We’re not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis’ actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the pope’s simplicity).

You finds Pope Francis's actions regarding fancy things inspiring, probably because Francis doesn't like to have the fancy things.


Rather, re the Mandatum rite, we’re talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a ‘sacrament of disregard’ for Roman rules on a variety of other matters.

Again you says the law has been clear, and it has been an issue for many pastors


Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy.

Pope Francis showed solidarity with downtrodden and showed he doesn't think that "because we've always done it that way" is a good enough argument.

A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when it’s easier simply to ignore it?
It’s a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite.

From wiki "Antinomianism in Christianity is the belief that under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation". You are saying, I think, that we live in a time when we are just supposed to have faith, which means people don't need to think or understand but just believe. And this makes changing laws more difficult because rather than changing it you can just ignore it. And this is the point that goes far beyond the foot washing rite.

[AikidoSoul]

129. "....we live in antinomian times."

I'm uncertain that the changing of laws is really the topic of concern. The case of the washing of feet on Holy Thursday of young, incarcerated women, is more like breaking the rules... not the laws, nor setting precedent for any law. It's much more like setting an example of what a humble Christ would do. And consistently behaving in ways that Christ would... is taking responsibility.... the opposite positon of "antinomian" view which is essentially evading responsibility.

This kind of behavior is rarely seen. I've been a Catholic since a child, and was even in a convent for a time...but left.

An inspiring leader can do more to change unfair rules or laws by simply by his or her own public behavior. The new pope merely broke unjust rules in a very public way. The pope's actions are scrutinized and published all over the world. The spotlight is always on him wherever he goes.

If you think of the greatest leaders -- they were the ones who practiced "civil disobedience." This incident doesn't meet that test exactly, but he did break the rules.

What he did has shaken things up... and has inspired millions of women and others who are hoping to find fundamental justice and fairness in our world.

Many of us, like myself, had given up on the Catholic faith because of its rigid patriarchal view of the inferiority of women.

It's scandalous that they have done this for thousands of years.

Examine the process of the many interpretations of scriptures over the centuries. It's a continuing scandal for scholars when they examine the political / economic motives behind most of these interpretations. After awhile it becomes clear that men wanted to grasp onto, wield, and protect their power over all things. Women were things to them, and that is the main thrust of their value system. Not all... but most.

They also buried ideas that they somehow considered to be against economic interests....not much different than the politics that exist today!

Respectfully submitted... and welcome to DU!!

[B Stieg]

66. Thanks, Frankie, but...

...that's not exactly the body part your organization seems so obsessed with that troubles me.
When are you going to do something surprising about that?

[Ilsa]

67. Good for him. Living a life of poverty and

Humility will serve this court well.

[Walk away]

68. From Pedophile to Pediphile! Anything to cover up their scandals.

I guess if you are willing to believe in gods and ghosts, you'll believe anything.

[Angry Dragon]

75. good for him ..............

catholic priests have vapors over dirty feet

[colorado_ufo]

78. We may have a real Pope here!

Stay tuned . . .

[BeyondGeography]

79. So many preeners and poseurs in power around the world

The door is wide open for this Pope to make an impact and open people's minds to something more than materialism and egomania. Very impressed with the quality of his ambition.

[Bertha Venation]

80. Athiest here. Wow. n/t

[broadcaster75201]

82. Nothing but a photo op

Wanna do something impressive and TRULY Christian? Sell all that the Church has and give it to the poor. Someone let me know when "His Holiness" does that one.

[Beacool]

110. No, it's not.

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2013, 04:57 PM - Edit history (1)

This is how he has lived his life.

Sell the Vatican's possessions? Would you suggest that the US government sell the content of the Smithsonian? The Vatican is mostly a museum.

For all intents and purposes, the Catholic Church is the largest NGO in the world. It costs millions to run the various charities and missions they have throughout the world. The Church definitely has problems, but selling their properties is not the solution to what afflicts them.

[No Vested Interest]

116. Thank you for articulating this.

Every time I see comments referring to the "millions/billions" the Church has, I am reminded that so much of the art and artifacts were gifts given for the protection of that property for the ages. As you say, similar to the Smithsonian, the British Museum, the museum in Cairo, etc.

Aside from the charities of the Church, just imagine how costly the housing and maintenance of these priceless articles is, in itself.

I haven't heard even the Tea Party or Rand Paul, etc. suggest the U. S. divest itself of its copies of the Declaration of Independence to lower the debt - yet. However, if they have the same mindset as those DUers who suggest the Vatican sell its art treasures, that suggestion from Tea Partiers may still happen.

[Beacool]

159. Thank you.

Don't quote me on this, but I think that the amount I read recently was around $50M a year to maintain and preserve the buildings and art housed within. I have no idea how many hundreds of millions are spent to support the Church's missions and various other charities throughout the world.

[Quixote1818]

132. I agree

I know a lot of liberal Catholics including Chaplin's and some are the most wonderful, loving, liberal people you will ever meet. He means well and I admire him for it.

[Beacool]

160. I have liked what I have seen so far.

I don't expect him to change Dogma. I think that behind the scenes he was for civil unions in Argentina, although he was opposed to gay marriage. I don't think that stance will change anytime soon. Ditto for the abortion issue, but I'm hoping for more involvement of women (particularly nuns) and a more relaxed attitude toward birth control. Baby steps........

[onehandle]

141. Yeah. Just like that Obama guy.

Always having those photo ops with workers, kids, teachers, and victims of gun culture.

He should sell all the Fort Knox gold, the Declaration Of Independence, and Yellowstone National Park and give the proceeds to the poor.

[Shivering Jemmy]

153. As admirable as that gesture would be

it's not his to sell.

[Bluenorthwest]

84. He says gay people are an attack on God, so those of you lauding him for this own that.

In the churches it I attended as a child, there was no gender discrimination in foot washing, so I've seen many male ministers wash the feet of women. This is nothing new at all for those of us not living in the 12th Century.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

89. No, lauding the Pope for washing people's feet does not confer ownership of his homophobic stance

My bona fides: I don't like, nor do I trust the leadership of the Catholic church.

That said, it's not difficult to understand that one can be supportive of some things the Pope does/says, without supporting other things the Pope does/says. I don't like that the Pope is homophobic. I don't like that the Pope has a lot of right wing tendencies. I'm still impressed that this Pope seems to be almost the total opposite of his predecessor in many ways.

[ucrdem]

105. No he does not say "gay people are an attack on God."

According to an oft-cited NCR piece, he "asserted that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children":

Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception. In 2010 he asserted that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children, earning a public rebuke from Argentina's President, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

Opposing gay adoption is nowhere close to saying "gay people are an attack on God," so unless you've got a credible citation to support that claim, I suggest you delete or edit it.

[gauguin57]

85. It's Twenty Freaking Thirteen. Pardon me if I don't give a medal ...

Last edited Fri Mar 29, 2013, 08:35 PM - Edit history (1)

... to an old man in a dress who washes a woman's feet while denying her any sort of equal rights in his church.

Make a woman a pope (or even a priest ... or even seen as equal to men in that church) and I might pay attention.

I grew up a second-class citizen in that church, having to wear a hat or a mantilla to cover my hair as if the Taliban was just waiting to give me demerits.

While Pope Francis seems like a breath of fresh air, seeing him wash a woman's feet does not impress me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. Any man that tells me what I have to do with my hair...

whether cover it with a scarf, let it grow and never cut it, or wear an ugly wig over it (as in orthodox Jewry), well, they don't have to deal with my hair.

It's not quite uncontrollable, but can easily get that way. It's damned thick and curly. The grayer I get, the curlier it gets.

No man is going to control my body, either, or my mind.

But then I only go to the UU church because I can't handle the rest of them attempting thought control and behavior control.

Notice that the men who want women to dress a certain way are not running around in loose robes or maybe togas?? They didn't wear dress shirts and ties back in the ancient days.

Hypocrites.

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. What the Pope does IS CHURCH LAW

What part of Catholocism do these "conservatives and liturgical purists" not understand?

[VA_Jill]

91. Francis' gesture sparked a debate among some conservatives and liturgical purists

Old Church joke:

Q. What's the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist?

A. You can negotiate with a terrorist.

Bottom line, Francis can do whatever the hell he wants. He's the Pope and according to church doctrine he's infallible.

[ZombieHorde]

99. I see he has a foot fetish. Just kidding!

I hope he moves the church in a woman-friendly direction.

[MannyGoldstein]

100. Seems like he might have been the best possible outcome from that conclave

Let us pray that he kindles a revolution. Hopefully popes, like presidents, can evolve.

[grahamhgreen]

104. Wow! Only 100 years behind the rest of the civilized world now!

[Phillip McCleod]

143. that's being perhaps a bit generous.. ;)

[XanaDUer]

107. Good start. Nt

[merrily]

113. Doing this is much better than excluding women.

I won't make a huge deal of it, but I won't dismiss it, either. It's a hopeful sign. May there be more.

[Nye Bevan]

118. Everything this guy does makes me like him more (nt)

[tabasco]

123. There's a church law that says you can't wash a woman's feet?

Nonsensical superstitious baloney.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

125. Seven women had their feet washed at our Catholic Church.

I was there, helping our new priest.
Peace be with you all.

[Skittles]

126. creepy

sorry, it just IS

[Quixote1818]

134. Did you see this article?

I get where you are coming from but the whole world is watching this guy and small gestures like this have powerful symbolic meaning that speak volumes about what his values are. If he can get a lot of Catholics to start respecting the poor and to not think the powerful and wealthy are better than the rest, he is doing the world a service and maybe helping out Democrats. See link:

http://wonkette.com/509023/new-pope-already-pissing-off-the-santorum-wing-of-the-catholic-church#hPgMdVUojpZEjUxA.99

[Skittles]

135. a lot of poverty is CAUSED by the Catholic Church

starting with their INSANE opposition to birth control

[Quixote1818]

131. This is important because he is a role model and the more liberal the better

If he can get people to start to care for the poor and not look down on them and to show his followers the big, wealthy, powers are no better than anyone else, this can only be good and maybe help Democrats. Yes, his stance on gay marriage has big problems but the bottom line here is he is teaching his followers important lessons about loving and respecting the poor.

[AAO]

138. At least having a foot fetish is better than being a pedophile.

[McCamy Taylor]

140. If he keeps this up, he will do ok.

[Odin2005]

150. I am really starting to like this guy!

[moobu2]

151. Let me know when he sells off some of the Churches assetts

and gives the money to some of it's victims otherwise it's just a bunch of propaganda.

[ucrdem]

155. The good news is, you're getting your wish.

Where do you think those ever-larger $multi-million settlements are coming from? There's no bottomless pot of gold in Rome. The Vatican is basically a smallish campus. The money comes from selling off local assets, i.e. putting diocesan schools, churches, rectories, convents and other properties on the auction block whether parishioners are ready to say goodbye or not. Very often they're not and why should they be? Those assets were paid for mainly from collections and fund drives and the parishioners dropping bills into the basket had no control of the actions of individual clergy members. So that's the bad news too.

[onehandle]

157. Yeah. Just like that Obama guy.

Always having those photo ops with workers, kids, teachers, and victims of gun culture.

He should sell all the Fort Knox gold, the Declaration Of Independence, and Yellowstone National Park and give the proceeds to the innocent victims of our wars.

[Beacool]

161. They have sold plenty of assets to pay the victims.

The Archdiocese of Boston considered bankruptcy in 2002. They ended up paying $85M to the victims of sexual abuse.

The Archdiocese of Los Angeles settled 4 cases and paid out $10M.

The list goes on......

[Lint Head]

156. Being at one's service is actually being at one's service. To me this is a stunt.

How about giving 1/2 of the 500 billion the Catholic church is worth to supply clean water and food to the poor and hungry of the world. They would still have 250 billion left.

[marshall]

158. Law, tradition, rules, rituals

The writer of the article uses these words interchangeably, as if they all mean the same thing in context. They don't, and I wonder if it is just journalistic sloppiness or if there is some other point being made.