Russia, China reject UN move to rebuke Syrian president

[cal04]

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/04/10317567-russia-china-reject-un-move-to-rebuke-syrian-president

Updated at 12 p.m. ET: Amid fresh bloodshed in the Syrian city of Homs, the U.N. Security Council on Saturday failed to pass a resolution calling on the Syrian president to step down.

Russia and China vetoed the resolution endorsing an Arab League call for Bashar Assad to leave power. The other 13 council members, including the U.S., France and Britain, voted in favor of the resolution.

The vote took place as Syrian forces pummeled the city of Homs with mortar and artillery fire that activists say killed more than 200 people in one of the bloodiest episodes of the uprising against Assad's regime. The U.N. says more than 5,400 people have been killed over almost 11 months in a Syrian government crackdown on civilian protests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/world/middleeast/syria-homs-death-toll-said-to-rise.html?_r=1&hp
(snip)
The Security Council voted 13 to 2 in favor of a resolution backing an Arab League peace plan for Syria, but the measure was blocked by Russia and China, who opposed what they saw as a violation of Syria’s sovereignty.

(snip)
Sergey V. Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said that Moscow still had two objections to the latest revised resolution: that it did not place sufficient blame for the violence on the opposition, and that it unrealistically demanded that the government withdraw its military forces back to their barracks.

He told a security conference in Munich that adopting the current resolution would risk “taking sides in a civil war.” In a television interview quoted by the Itar-Tass news agency, he said that ignoring Russia’s objections would result in “another scandal.”

(snip)
“The scandal is not to act,” Peter Wittig, the German ambassador to the United Nations, said. “The scandal would be failure to act.”

[former9thward]

1. Dictators stick together.

[Iliyah]

2. Of course they do!

If we Americans don't watch our backs, Koch, Rove and the gop party will make this country a capitalist dictatorship!

[dipsydoodle]

3. Once bitten twice shy

.

[tabatha]

4. 13 of the 15 members supported it, including

India, Pakistan, and South Africa

[leveymg]

5. This was the predicted outcome all along. All those people dead in order to weaken

Iran's primary ally at a critical stage in the build-up to another "optional war" in the region.

Cynical bastards.

[CAPHAVOC]

35. Come on.

Look what we did to Kadaffy. The Iranians are not blind. They saw what happens when you co-operate. Sanctions lead to War. I am with Ron Paul on this one. Take all options off the table and get the Heck out of there.

[leveymg]

38. The removal of Kadaffy was largely opportunistic. Regime change in Syria has been long planned

Please read this document (A Clean Break, 1997) drawn up by the later architects of the Iraq War and the WMD charade (Wolfowitz-Feith-Wurmer's Office of Special Plans (OSP) deception shop).

These same men handed Bibi Netanyahu the "Clean Break" regime change plan in 1997. That too talked about working with friendly Arab regimes to knock over rivals and create a greater Israeli regional co-prosperity sphere, and a break with the U.S., which was viewed as holding back the creation of a Greater Israel. "A Clean Break" called first for regime change in Iraq-Lebanon-Syria-Iran. See, http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

[CAPHAVOC]

39. Where is it?

Looks to me like the overarching goal is to end up with an Arab Trade Zone similar to EU. I read The Hadj and saw Lawrence of Arabia...On to Damascus! That is probably the end result of this mess. I sure hope they don't start shooting in Iran.

[leveymg]

43. There are several overlapping models of regime change and outcomes.

* Iraq (Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2003-2012) - There was the direct, brute force occupation model to grab oil for US-based multinationals and topple a targeted regime used by the Bush Administration: Historical, Catastrophic Fail.
* Lebanon, Gaza (Operation Cast Lead, 2007) - unilateral bombing of infrastucture and limited targeting of political leaders and forces: Moderate Fail
* Libya (Operation , 2011) - Opportunistic regime change of an isolated autocrat with a weak base, UN "humanitarian intervention", accompanied by limited NATO airstrikes and a limited number of outside advisors: short duration of hostilities, coalition operation with UN approval, counted a Success and a model by most sources.
* Syria (Operation name unknown, 2011-present) - Multi-party covert political-military operations and arming of opposition. US, UK, France, Saudi Arabia, Gulf CC, Israel. Heavy civilian casualties for limited payback. Some degradation of Syrian military readiness. Failure to obtain UN resolution. Still in process, but likely Failure to achieve regime change in near-term.
* Iran (Operation name unknown, 2009 - present) Escalation of ongoing covert operations, embargoes and economic sanctions led by US, Israel, UK, Saudis, GCC. Failure of "Green Revolution" political opposition in 2009-10 to achieve goals, some destabilization of broad-based domestic political status quo supporting regime, some suppression of opposition. Campaign of targeted killings of nuclear scientists, Revolutionary Guard military leaders, probably carried out by Israel and proxies. Other paramilitary operations includes sabotage of pipelines. Result has been heightened alert status of Iranian military. Strategy appears to be to provoke Iranian military or unconventional forces reaction creating pretext for military attack. Operations still in process, and outcome is difficult to predict. Risk of uncontrollable spread of hostilities with heavy casualties on all sides is high. Potential Colossal Fail, casualties and costs many times Iraq Debacle.

[CAPHAVOC]

46. Sounds to me like total catastrophic failure on all levels. Why is Obama going along with it?

The best way to go would be to leave them on their own and watch the fun.

[leveymg]

48. Unlike Bush in Iraq, we can't attribute it to either lack of intellect or intelligence at the top.

So, the flaws in the policy have to be rooted in something else, something more systemic. Let's look at the range of models of understanding and possibilities suggested by them:

* Political Choice Theory - Policy inertia: Aggressive policies of intervention and containment that may have been effective two or three decades ago are still operative, but no longer work because of the degradation of US power and influence.
* Interest Group Theory - Domestic political causes: political gridlock and poor policy choices can often be attributed to disproportionate influence by special interests that dominate political coalitions.
* Schumpeter's Creative Destruction Theory of Political Economics - Catastrophic failure for the US, in general, is a potential gain for others. System maintains its equilibrium; success or failure is not a normative matter, but of measurable global aggregates of welfare. Other markets and regions are more efficient producers of wealth, so this is a net positive transfer.
* Imperialism Theory - Conflict Imperative: the US system since World War Two is essentially based in permanent warfare. The federal government and national economy cannot survive without continuous foreign conflict, intervention, and military spending. Not an outcomes based system, but one with its own internal imperative to initiate wars, even ones that we will likely lose according to a rational cost-benefits analysis.

[CAPHAVOC]

54. Well...

Should we vote Obama? All I can do is vote. I have dumped the GOP due to the plan they have for a "referendum" on Obama.....Disgusting to me. A referendum is not a good idea. So the Dems seem to me to have the high ground.

[pampango]

6. Stalling tactic to give more time for Assad's repression to work. Good to see every other country

backed this resolution with no abstentions or dissenting votes as often happens.

Apparently Russia thinks that with a continuing supply of weapons and enough time Assad's repression will work and their buddy in the region and weapons buyer will survive. Perhaps they are right. Some times the oppressors win, at least in the short run. At the very least, Russia has completed the sale of more weapons - an economic victory for them - with the prospect of more sales to come.

Dictatorships don't survive forever. Look at Central and South America. Over the past 20-50 years the people there have removed dictatorial governments. The same will happen in the Middle East, including Syria, (Arabs are no different in that regard than any other human beings) and Russia will have lost its buddy and weapons buyer by not siding with the people when they could.

Assad's days are numbered. His military and security forces have already proven they cannot control the massive numbers of people who are tired of being ruled by a dictator. It happens everywhere eventually, Bashar. Don't feel too bad.

[mazzarro]

7. Well it so far seem to be working in Bahrain -- n/t

[dipsydoodle]

9. Dictatorial governments installed largely by help from the USA

Hardly a good illustration.

[joshcryer]

18. It won't work and eventually they'll resort to a Georgia-style action.

At which point I will wonder what people think of glorious Russia.

[stockholmer]

28. are honestly trying to peddle the globally-debunked claptrap that Russia first attacked Georgia?

I thought the only people on the planet who still believed that were Fox News viewers and/or Freepers.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7623555.stm

Speaking at an event organised by the German Marshall Fund in Washington, Ms Rice acknowledged that Georgia had fired the first shots in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

"The Georgian government launched a major military operation into Tskhinvali [the capital of South Ossetia] and other areas of that separatist region," she said.

"Regrettably, several Russian peacekeepers were killed in the fighting," she added.

---------------------------------

BTW, they weren't just killed, they had their throats slit in a sneak attack as they ran out of their barracks in the middle of the night.

[joshcryer]

30. Nope.

Georgia had no reason to go into South Ossetia. Just as Assad has no good reason to continue besieging mostly unarmed protesters.

[AverageJoe90]

21. United Russia's(the Moscovian equivalent of our Republicans) time may be running out, though.

It was mainly because of the conservative government that Russia decided to supply Assad with weapons, as well as the military's desperation for extra cash. Had a Just Russia been in charge instead, I feel that the Russian government would have done the right thing, even if the military would have objected.

[David__77]

22. That's not true.

That party would have taken the same decision. Also, I wouldn't characterize United Russia as monolithically conservative.

The only current alternative to United Russia is a KPRF-led alliance.

[AverageJoe90]

32. And your proof is?

I don't like U.R., but I'm not sure if the Communists would be much better. Frankly, it'd scare the ever-loving crap out of certain sectors of the U.S. public, too.

[pampango]

8. Amnesty Int.: Double veto of draft Security Council Resolution on Syria a betrayal of protesters

The decision by Russia and China to veto a weak draft UN Security Council resolution on Syria, the day after the Syrian army launched a major assault on residential areas of Homs leaving scores dead, is a shockingly callous betrayal of the people of Syria, Amnesty International said today.

"This is a completely irresponsible use of the veto by Russia and China," said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International's Secretary-General.

"It is staggering that they have blocked the passage of what was already a very weak draft resolution. After a night in which the whole world watched the people of Homs suffering, the actions of these members are particularly shocking."

Apart from a presidential statement issued in August 2011 condemning human rights violations, the Security Council has not acted on the crisis in Syria since the uprising began in March 2011.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/double-veto-draft-security-council-resolution-syria-betrayal-protesters-2012-02-04

[Fool Count]

31. "Betrayal" is a strong word. Why should Russia or China have any loyalty to some "protesters"?

In fact, they never did, so it can't be a betrayal in any way.

[WestSeattle2]

10. Well, any pretense that Russia and China have joined the civilized world

was effectively destroyed today. They should not be embraced or supported by the West in any way. Ya just can't change a leopard's spots.

[Dr_Scholl]

11. What do you expect from a country that runs over its people with tanks?

Or a country that had gulags?

[Odin2005]

12. Russia and China can go fuck themseves!

Seriously, it seems like the UN can do nothing because whenever some dictatorship is massacring it's citizens China and Russia veto any action.

The UNSC is a fucking joke.

[joshcryer]

19. See Burma 2008.

[AverageJoe90]

33. China needs to be booted out of the UNSC, and Russia given a strict warning to CUT THAT SHIT OUT.

I'm sorry, but even though our own government may have fucked up, I can't believe some people would use that as an excuse to turn their backs to other countries' B.S.(not saying you did, of course, but there are those people out there who did)

[lsewpershad]

13. How many resolutions

of the UN against Israel has the US voted against. How about those in favor of Palestine or Cuba?

[radhika]

14. No one here mentions US blocking Israeli sanctions?

When the US stand alone in support of it's long-time BFF ally against an otherwise unanimous US vote? It looks like the BRIC leaders have chosen 'their' BFF too.

[Odin2005]

23. I hate the US's protecting Israel, too. This isn't either/or.

[DUIC]

15. The UN is morally bankrupt

Has been for quite some time. Their resolutions are typically anti-democracy and pro-thuggery. This is merely one more in a long line of such decisions.

[Baclava]

16. Putin doesn't want his own people to get any ideas, Syria is his puppet state.

Crush the rebellion. Putin knows how, he was KGB.

[David__77]

20. Good news!

Thank you to Russia and China for sticking up for peace and independence!

[Odin2005]

24. LOL, you probably think Freedom is Slavery, too.

[David__77]

25. I do not think that theocracy is freedom.

...

[Odin2005]

26. Neither is a dictatorship.

[stockholmer]

27. Unless it is a US/UK/NATO supported dictatorship, then its all unicorns and ponies

[Odin2005]

29. I don't support US-backed dictatorships. False dichotomy.

[AverageJoe90]

34. C'mon, Dave, you seriously believe this?

[Odin2005]

36. It's the "anything the West does is evil" brigade.

The kind of folks who defended Gaddafi and defend Mugabe because they are sticking up to "Teh evul Western Imperialists".

[David__77]

40. You forgot to accuse me of loving Saddam Hussein.

In an earlier era, this line of accusation was called McCarthyism.

[Kurska]

41. I call it cheerleading murders and thugs.

I don't care what the flag on their armband is, when a government slaughters it's people I can't get behind it. You obviously don't share those scruples.

[David__77]

45. What's this nonsense you post?

You have absolutely no basis for this at all.

[Odin2005]

42. LOL, calling BS when you support, say, China's policies in Tibet...

...is McCarthyism?

[David__77]

44. You pile more McCarthyism on.

Where have I once stated that I support China's Tibet policy? That's what's insidious about McCarthyism - it's just designed to put progressives on the ideological defensive.

[Odin2005]

50. In any thread involving Tibet you always agree with the propaganda...

...spewed by Chinese state Media.

[David__77]

51. I support the position of the UN and the US that Tibet is a part of China.

It's the "one China" policy that the vast majority of the world adheres to - nothing especially radical about that.

[Odin2005]

52. What about what the TIBETANS want???

[CAPHAVOC]

55. I hop eit does not come here.

[Posteritatis]

47. Well that's ... predictable. (nt)

[christx30]

49. Exactly the same way that

China is sticking up for the independence of Tibet people? Or the way that China sticks up for independenceof Taiwan? It's perfectly OK for Syria to gun people down by the hundreds that don't like living in a dictatorship, and it's prefectly ok for China and Russia to stop the UNSC from formally rebuking them. Got it.

[Gringostan]

37. It never changes in US foreign policy

It never changes in US foreign policy; some dictators good, until they become bad. Then we find new dictators, and they become good, until they become bad; and the cycle continues ad nauseum.

[Centrik]

53. once again

China and Russia block something that would help the people of syria. It disgusts me.

[Yalling]

56. Navalny in Yale University

Everyone knows that Navalny studied in Yale, but not everyone knew what impression he left there and what he was studying.
Originally Yale’s website contained pages about Navalny where everybody could familiarize himself with Navalny’s program and what his coordinators think about their ward and their opinion, let’s say, wasn’t gratifying. Of course such information was deleted because Navalny’s curators thought that it would damage Navalny’s reputation. You can always delete it, but someone surely will make copy or screenshots that will reveal the things somebody wanted to hide.





It turned out that Navalny got great skills in PR and working with crowd but he is tyrannically inclined and ready to achieve his goals at any cost. He firmly stands for his nationalist views and always keeps talking about that. He is also extremely aggressive in persisting of his opinion. And the last one but not the least – Navalny set his mind on becoming leader, but it’s not enough. A great team stands behind every great leader, but Navalny didn’t adopt that approach and his instructors couldn’t persuade him that nationalism is not the right point to start... Anyway, you’d better see the screenshots, everything is there.