Right-wing historian shoots himself in Notre Dame cathedral 'in protest at gay marriage'

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Source: Daily Mail (UK)

By Sam Webb
PUBLISHED: 10:10 EST, 21 May 2013 | UPDATED: 11:17 EST, 21 May 2013

A right-wing historian shot himself dead in front of hundreds of tourists at the altar of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris today, apparently in protest at France's legalisation of gay marriage.

Dominique Venner, who had recently been campaigning against gay marriage in France, is said to have calmly walked past the crowds milling around the 850-year-old Cathedral, one of the most popular tourist sites in the world, before taking out a Herstal automatic pistol.

The 78-year-old put the gun in his mouth and fired before collapsing on to the altar, according to French media reports.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328502/Dominique-Venner-Right-wing-historian-shoots-Notre-Dame-cathedral-protest-gay-marriage.html

---

I didn't post earlier, because I don't want to publicize suicide. Also, it happened in Paris. (LBN rules say that the item must be of national importance.) Finally, it's the Daily Mail, which is a little less esteemed than other papers. Then I read at JoeMyGod that the act was a protest against equal marriage rights. That makes it newsworthy in the U.S.

FRANCE: Anti-Gay Marriage Activist Commits Suicide Inside Notre Dame

I can see I'm going to have to edit the post to add this:

I've suffered from depression for years. It is not funny when someone takes his own life. Here is a link to a hotline:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/if-you-are-in-crisis-and-need-immediate-help.shtml

IF YOU ARE IN CRISIS AND NEED IMMEDIATE HELP
En español
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/si-usted-esta-en-crisis-y-necesita-ayuda-inmediata.shtml

If you are thinking about harming yourself or attempting suicide, tell someone who can help right away:

Call your doctor's office.
Call 911 for emergency services.
Go to the nearest hospital emergency room.
Call the toll-free, 24-hour hotline of the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (1-800-273-8255) to be connected to a trained counselor at a suicide crisis center nearest you.

Ask a family member or friend to help you make these calls or take you to the hospital.

As a research institute, NIMH is not able to monitor this Web site for crisis messages or make referrals.

IF YOU HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER OR FRIEND IN A CRISIS
If you have a family member or friend who is suicidal, do not leave him or her alone. Try to get the person to seek help immediately from an emergency room, physician, or mental health professional. Take seriously any comments about suicide or wishing to die. Even if you do not believe your family member or friend will actually attempt suicide, the person is clearly in distress and can benefit from your help in receiving mental health treatment.

From: The Elephant in the Room: Suicide (Part 7 of 8)

[Crunchy Frog]

1. Nice to see someone stand by their convictions like that.

I'd like to see this form of protest catch on.

[sofa king]

9. If an aspiring mass murderer starts with himself....

... all that's left to ponder is the message, rather than the destruction the person caused.

Here's a perfect example. Some chump knocks himself off and gets his message out. It's a stupid and frivolous message, and not worth the lives of anyone but himself, and we heard it better than the mass murderers of last month and the months before. Good for him.

I too hope this form of protest catches on, because there are millions of rednecks here in America who traded their homes, their health, and their retirements in order to keep gays down.

Now that they're paying a personal price for it and popping off like so many over-yeasted beers in the basement, we really need to steer them in the direction of punishing the people who created this state of affairs: themselves.

[Katashi_itto]

24. It's a Right winger. Pass the Margaret Thatcher death-cake around...

Who know how many lives he affected negatively before he offed himself.

[sofa king]

29. But the important thing is...

... how many lives he did not negatively affect before turning his weapon on himself.

And he burns in hell, too, according to the tenets of his chosen superstition.

[Katashi_itto]

51. Excellent point~!

[Hissyspit]

42. I'm sorry this guy was so sick he felt the need to do this,

but fuck Margaret Thatcher.

[24601]

69. Sex with the dead is really, really wrong.

[brooklynite]

2. So to protest what he thinks is a violation of Christian doctrine...

...he commits suicide, which is a violation of Christian doctrine.

[Plucketeer]

4. Now THAT'S "Irony"!!! N/T

[LuvNewcastle]

6. Yep, he's going to Hell.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. No he isn't.

[NutmegYankee]

50. You're right.

He's already there.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. For very small values of 'there'.

I.e: Nowhere.

[Doctor_J]

53. Where he'll no doubt have to share a room with sodomites

poor fella.

[happyslug]

62. Since I looks up the catechism, lets see what is the Church's position on Homosexuality.

Read the Sections of the Catechism on Homosexuality listed below Carefully, No mention of "Grave Sin" or "Severe Sin", in any of them. Under Catholic Doctrine, Homosexual acts are NOT Mortal Sins, and thus under Catholic Doctrine not grounds to go to Hell (Homosexual acts are Sins, but only Venial sins).

You have to understand that the Catholic Church has two sets of Sins, Severe Sin (also referred to as "Mortal Sins&quot and Venial Sins (When the Catechism was first published in English it used the term "Sin" for what use to be called "Venial Sins" i.e Sins that do NOT by themselves damns anyone to Hell, the newer version of the Catechism have reverted to using "Venial Sins". The Catechism also used the term "Severe Sin" for what use to be called "Mortal Sins", I have seen both terms used in newer versions of the Catechism).

In the Catechism all sins are Venial UNLESS it is clearly stated it is a Severe or Mortal Sin.

A Mortal Sin has to be somehow a violation of the Ten Commandments, and the only sexual sins mentioned in the Ten Commandments is Adultery (i.e. Fornication is NOT a mortal sin either).

Just a comment that if he is going to be with any "Sodomites" in hell, the "Sodomites" he will be with in Hell will be in Hell for something other then being a Homosexual.


Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#

[24601]

70. Maybe he judged that it's covered in coveting your neighbor's ass?

[happyslug]

71. You may be close, that is how Rape was treated in ancient times

Now, the writers of the Catechism wanted to avoid the Abortion issue, for at the time of the Ten Commandments it was NOT considered Murder or any other violation of the Ten Commandments (And this was the Catholic Rule till 1869).

Side note: The modern concept of Property is relatively young. When I was young we would call people "Indian Givers" when they took back something they gave to us. The reason for this was simple, by the time of the Settlement of the US, Europeans were slowly adopting the concept that when you owned something, it was absolute. On the other hands, Native Americans did NOT have that concept, when they gave something as a gift, such a granting of a gift included the concept they would take it back and use it themselves without permission. This conflict of definition of gift was noted as early as the 1500s (before European settlement of the US and Canada). It survived in the language of the Children of where I grew up in rural Western Pennsylvania (I lived in a old Coal Patch, that was slowing being surrounded by Suburbia, but it still was a Rural Coal Patch not a suburban development). Just a side note that what we considered "Theft" has NOT always been the rule, in the Code of Justinian (C 550 AD), theft was NOT even a crime, if someone stole from you, you had only recourse was a Civil Suit for the Value of what was taken.

This changing definition of property brings me to the subject of Rape in the Catholic Catechism. Rape, is NOT mentioned in the Ten Commandments for it was covered by other aspects, including "Stealing". I.e. to rape someone, was the same as taking some piece of property from that person, i.e. thief and thus did NOT have to have a separate listing as a sin, for at the time the ten Commandments were written, rape did not have to be mentioned for it was covered by the Seventh Commandment that you should NOT steal.

In the story of Lot in Sodom, the problem was NOT that the men in the town wanted to have sex with the Angels that came to save Lot, but the Sin was the desire of the Townsmen to RAPE those angels (and thus violated the ancient rule of hospitality, i.e. guests were to be protected by the people they were visiting). If you read the story of Lot, it is clearly that the townsmen wanted to do HARM to the Angels that was the problem, not that they were "Sodomites".

Rape was reported over and over again in the Bible and always attacked as a great sin, yet it did NOT make the list of evil sins in the Ten Commandments. The reason for this was simple, it did NOT have to be listed for what was listed included anything where using force to have sex was already a sin. The Seventh Commandment "Thou shall not steal" covers Rape, you should NOT take someone's personal integrity from them, but having sex with them against their will, when someone rapes someone else, the rapist is stealing that person bodily integrity and as such a violation of the Seventh Commandment.

Now the writers of the Catechism wanted to avoid justifying abortion, but abortion, like Rape is NOT mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The reason is since 1869 Abortion has been called the same as murder, even through that was NOT the case when the Ten Commandments were written. Thus the writers were in a bind, if they included rape under the seventh commandment, for it was "Stealing" at the time the Ten Commandments were written, they had to also point out Abortion was NOT murder at the same time. For this reason the Writers of the Catechism decided NOT to mention Rape, as it was seen at the time of the Ten Commandments were written, for that would open the door to view Abortion as it was seen when the Ten Commandments were written.

For the above reasons the Catechism has a hard time with rape, the authors of the Catechism wanted to call Rape a Mortal Sin, but also did not want to say Rape was a violation of the Commandment not to steal, as that commandment was interpreted at the time the Ten Commandments were written for if they did, that opened the door to Abortion NOT being Murder at the time the Ten Commandments were written.

Now, the concept that the Seventh Commandment was intended to cover more then physical property can be seen in 2414 of the Catechism forward:

2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason—selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian—lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit. St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his Christian slave “no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother,... both in the flesh and in the Lord.”

The above should included rape (and in my opinion does) but rape was NOT mentioned (but implied) for that was a way for the Writers to avoid Abortion, as Abortion was viewed when the Ten Commandments were written.

Just a comment that you may NOT be that far off from the position of the Catholic Church when you mention coveting things "owned" by others.

[happyslug]

61. The Catholic Church view on Suicide is that it is Murder, but the Church dogma is NOT absolute

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of. (2258)

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. (2212)

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. (1735)

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. (1037)

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

Thus, if this was to show an example, the Church will refuse him a burial, but if it is shown it was do to mental problems, then the church will burial him.

[caseymoz]

25. Yes, sacrificed everything else he stands for . . .

. . . because he was unhappy about gays getting to marry. That principle meant more to him than the Ten Commandments and any of Jesus' teachings.

A true derelict of a human being.

[NickB79]

68. God is facepalming right about now. nt

[SpankMe]

3. They even have fucking right wing-nuts in France.

They should bill his estate for the cleanup.

I take no joy in the violent death of anyone - even self inflicted. But murdering yourself over this issue??????? I don't have much sympathy for him. For his his family (children, grand-children) I feel bad. They may be suffering embarrassment and humiliation in addition to grief.

But suicide protests are miles beyond my ability to comprehend.

[knixphan]

34. ^ Likewise.

Light years beyond my ability.

[Doctor_J]

59. At least they commit suicide instead of shooting innocent Congress, UU church goers, and so on

I have always known they're more civilized than the US

[tblue]

72. The poor people who witnessed that!

Those are the victims. That was a nasty, selfish thing to do. Hope there were no children there. Yeah, I'm sorry for his family and friends, okay fine . I am just glad he took no one else with him.

[They_Live]

5. so his point is

that he thinks gay marriage is wrong to the point that suicide is okay. I think he might need to read that bible again. Oops, too late. Good thing he had a gun.

[louis-t]

7. 'Letter to the Editor' would have been just as effective.

[tblue]

73. Could've joined Westboro Baptist Church

I guess I'd rather be dead than do that too.

[idwiyo]

8. Not sure what to say. I mean, FFS, really? Never mind that suicide is a sin...

[liberal N proud]

10. Guess that solves his problem with accepting gays, wonder how the suicide thing works for him

His faith should have told him that suicide was against his religion. Off to hell with him then.

[msanthrope]

11. Here's his blog post---another far-right winger gone.

http://www.dominiquevenner.fr/2013/05/la-manif-du-26-mai-et-heidegger/

On edit--am I a terrible person? I hoped no one else was traumatized, and that Notre Dame was undamaged....but for him, I felt nothing.

[enlightenment]

56. Wow. That guy was over the top.

He apparently saw this as an "authentication" of the need to "act" to prevent gay marriage - because gay marriage means fewer white French babies, which will speed up the process of the nation being overtaken by the "Afro-Maghrebi" immigrants who will impose Sharia law.

He seems to have seen his action as that of a martyr to a cause.

[msanthrope]

57. My French was a little rusty, but the crazy does translate just fine, doesn't it? nt

[enlightenment]

58. Mine's not great either,

but it's hard to miss the woo-woo in that screed. Of course I'm not sure that suggesting people act and then offing himself as an example is precisely the point he was trying to make . . .

[geek tragedy]

12. Suicide is a mortal sin, fitting since he was mortally stupid, nt

[broadcaster75201]

13. I simply do NOT care.

Ever seen the body of someone beaten to death? As a Prosecutor and Defense atty I have. I've seen the result of people, kids, being beaten and tortured to death for race and sexual orientation. And while people like this pig don't pull the trigger, they create a mob atmosphere that not just encourages, but applauds and gives succor to those that perpetrate said violence.

No. I will not care about these people or their death ... ever.

[alsame]

14. How sad to

hate other people more than you love your own life.

Not a great loss to humanity.

[bitchkitty]

15. Sick.

Obviously he was obsessed with his hatred, and turned it onto himself. I'm sorry for his family.

This will make no difference at all - gay rights are inevitable, and they include the right to marry the person that you love.

[Botany]

16. Oh well too bad that other people had to see it or clean up the mess but ...

.... I don't care one less wing nut to infect the minds of others with his hate and lies.

[DCKit]

17. Starting a trend, I hope.

Regardless, I knew there was a reason I no longer attend church.

[formercia]

41. May you be touched by his noodly appendage

Ramen

Does this mean we're winning?

[Flashmann]

18. Right-wing historian shoots himself in Notre Dame cathedral

That oughta teach 'em...

[sarge43]

19. Glad no bystanders were hurt, otherwise

[Ian David]

20. His suicide impacts me about as much as gay marriage should have impacted him.

So what?

[eppur_se_muova]

23. +aleph-null, exponentiate, factorial, etc. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. quelle dommage...

...

[Blue_Tires]

22. at least he had to decency to only take himself out...

[AAO]

35. Too bad he didn't have the decency to do it without the big crowd.

Some of those people will be affected for life from what they witnessed.

[Blue_Tires]

38. yeah, but he had to make a big public statement...

of course in America, the statement usually includes 'take as many people with you on the way down'...

[Dawson Leery]

26. What is important is that he did not murder any bystanders.

[onehandle]

27. You have to give France this. They know how to be activists, whichever side you are on.

Hundreds of thousands marched in favor and not in favor.

Almost nothing moves the vast majority of Americans to do shit.

Unless it involves calling a number and paying a buck fifty to pick a reality show winner.

[dorksied]

28. If only more Right Wingers would dine on a bullet, this world would start to improve.

I'm unapologetic and complete in my utter loathing for right wingers and their ideology. To be honest, I'm a very tolerant person, except for those people.

[Wernothelpless]

31. Next ...

Yup, was he worried about child abuse? ... pollution? ... starvation? ... global warming? ...

Nope, he simply couldn't deal with the idea of same sex so he offed himself ... a REAL deep thinker ...

Extinction was the only option ... and that's a wrap! ...

[AAO]

36. Likely he was horrified over his own sexual interests, and was killed by his own bigotry.

[Doctor_J]

60. Not taking that bet

almost a sure thing

[Wernothelpless]

66. That's what I took away from it....

A lifetime of denial and religion fueled delusions ran smack dab into 2013 and he couldn't deal with it ...

[clarice]

30. What a dope. nt

[valerief]

32. Well, he put his gunny where his mouth is. nt

[Pragdem]

37. And to think he lived in fear of being penetrated by a phallic object. nt

[valerief]

65. Bwah!

[greiner3]

39. Could be an entry;

For the 'Darwin Awards'!

[Roland99]

40. Maybe Pat Robertson will follow his lead!

I'll even pay for his airfare to South Bend.

(Transatlantic fares are just too $$ right now)

[Tom Ripley]

43. Godspeed!

[Mz Pip]

44. One less lunatic zealot.

Maybe this will be the beginning of a trend.

[KamaAina]

45. Suicide is strictly forbidden in the Catholic church

A suicide's body may not be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

So to protest something his church hates, he did something it hates even more.

Brilliant!

[Politicub]

46. He was clearly disturbed to react in this way to something that would have zero impact on him

I was prepared to write something snarky, but changed my mind after reading through your post.

Know that the information about the suicide hotline that you appended to your post will make people think twice. Well, at least it made me think twice.

[Travelman]

47. I'm guessing that hurt a lot less than self-immolation

*shrug*

People snuff it in all sorts of different ways. This one was at least a little creative, but whatever.

I would think that if you really wanted to be somewhat creative and have an impact in your suicide, particularly in France, guillotining yourself at the Bastille would be newsworthy and have a bit of historical significance. But it's still pretty much a drama queen move, IMO.

[KinMd]

48. None of OUR wingnuts cared that much about it

[nomorenomore08]

49. What a maroon...

[Doctor_J]

52. God, I hope this catches on

Can we build a replica in the Bible Belt - within driving distance of Liberty U and the AFA? Build it and they will come.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

55. It's a start!

[truebrit71]

63. ...and thus the world now has one less bigot...

...i feel bad for those that had to witness his self-indulgent attempt at martyrdom, but other than that i think we're all good...

[lunasun]

64. shot himself dead in front of hundreds of tourists

a lot of end of school tours around this time year
at any age, imagine being there and having to witness his crap when you wanted only to visit a great work of architecture on vacation
= a double jerkass

[MisterP]

67. wiki says he was in the Organisation de l'Armée Secrète--the guys who inspired

"The Day of the Jackal" and gave the Argentinean military its ideology that led to 30K deaths (Adm. Massera insisted that the youth were being corrupted by a Judeo-Marxist conspiracy via Freud and Einstein undermining the "Christian" notion of space, time, and individual)
IOW, *way* more than just "right-wing"
basically, BHL before he concocted his "support Iraq abroad and race hate at home in the name of liberalism" line