Venezuela 'ends' bid to restore full US ties

[think]

Source: BBC

20 July 2013 Last updated at 03:23 ET

Venezuela says it has "ended" steps towards restoring diplomatic ties with the US, after comments by the woman nominated as the next envoy to the UN.

Samantha Power said this week she would seek to combat what she called the "crackdown on civil society" in countries including Venezuela.

She was speaking at a US Senate confirmation hearing on Wednesday.

The remarks prompted an angry response from Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro.

"The Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela hereby ends the process... of finally normalising our diplomatic relations," said Venezuela's foreign ministry in a statement.

It objected to Ms Power's "interventionist agenda", noting that her "disrespectful opinions" were later endorsed by the state department, "contradicting in tone and in content" earlier statements by Secretary of State John Kerry...


Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23387807

[99th_Monkey]

1. K & R ~nt

[Demeter]

2. I don't blame the Venezuelans

and from what I've heard from her and about her, Ms. Power is a piece of work, seeking to live up to her name.

Too bad she doesn't know where power REALLY lies.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Neither do I...

Way to go Ms Powers. I assume her quest is to alienate the rest of the world in the most clumsy ways she can possibly find...

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. Fantastic timing, too, eh?

I admit to no great diplomacy skills, but given the heavy handed behavior of the US over Snowden recently,
only the truly tone deaf would speak in public about So. America the way she did.

[MADem]

4. They'd better hope China steps up. nt

[madrchsod]

12. china is going to build a sea level shipping route through Nicaragua

those tankers full of venezuelan oil will have smooth sailing to china.

[MADem]

23. Yes, I know those plans are in the works. But we don't own the Panama Canal anymore, so that isn't

an issue.

The problem is that China doesn't have sufficient capacity to refine sour/heavy in bulk. They will have to repair Venezuelan refineries--like the one that blew up because of pisspoor maintenance--or better still, build a new one.

[delrem]

26. You think China is incapable of building refineries?

You aren't keeping up with the times.

[MADem]

28. Are you having trouble with the written word? Where did I EVER say such a thing?

They have dozens of refineries, but they don't have any that can handle VZ oil. It's a specialty product owing to its composition.

The process for refining heavy and sour oil is onerous, and there is a LOT of waste product associated with it.

For this reason, heavy and sour oils are CHEAP. You pay less for unrefined VZ oil than you would for SA light/sweet, for example.

Heavy, sour oils are also not economical to transport in their unrefined state--at least not too far--because there is so much waste associated with the product. VZ has done a lot of their refining in USA to this point, because it's not too far away, and in USA there is better plant maintenance and the quality and timeliness of production is predictable.

I think China should invest by fixing up those VZ refineries, and then they can help themselves to all that oil as a way to pay down all that debt they're owed. That way the Chinese can keep their economy clanking along for the near term. Maybe they'll throw a few bones to Maduro along the way.

We'll see how much better Maduro gets along with those guys.

[delrem]

29. So, you do think China is incapable of building refineries.

That's crazy. China wants Canadian tar sands product fer chrysake, willing to build the refineries to handle it.

[MADem]

31. No, I did not say that--why are you being deliberately obtuse? What do you get out of that kind of

behavior? Why do you repeat falsehoods about what another poster has said? Don't you realize that that is disruptive and uncivil behavior? That it makes you look bad, that you appear unserious and more interesting in goading than conversing?

Since you are having trouble having a simple conversation, let me spell it out for you in a way that a grammer school student might understand--one more time, read each sentence slowly, now:

1. They do not HAVE capable refineries in their inventory NOW.

2. They COULD build them.

3. They should build (or rebuild) in VZ because the closer to the source that the refinery is, the more MONEY can be made per barrel.

Clear enough for you...or are you still confused?

[delrem]

32. Then what's your point. Venezuela/China can do that *easily*.

[MADem]

33. Yes, they can. Of course, how "easy" it is depends on if Maduro sticks to agreements.

VZ has been known to go back on deals made when they decide they don't like their partners anymore.

I don't think the Chinese will tolerate that sort of thing.

My "point" was what I have said in this thread. You're the one that created drama where none was called for, by falsely accusing me of saying things I never said.

[delrem]

34. Yes, the US has a few problems dealing with a socialist democracy.

It's so much easier when US oil companies can deal with a US puppet.

[MADem]

35. When a country makes an agreement, even a lousy one, they should either renegotiate or

ride it out--not play bullshit games.

It's part of the reason VZ is regarded around the world as unreliable. China is in a good position, though, because no one else will do business with them, they need oil, and they have cash as well as a ton of VZ debt, and VZ has no other product with which to repay that debt. It puts China in the catbird seat. They might even get into the corn flour and toilet paper exporting business, why not? They can slap containers of that on top of empty tankers on their return trip to VZ...why waste a trip??

I think it's an elegant solution.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

36. Well played, MADem.

You have, not that it's a high hurdle, way more patience than I do with idiots.

[MADem]

40. I try to be civil....it's a discussion board, I try to "discuss," though sometimes it's not too easy

Way too many folks want a fight...

[delrem]

47. Thanks, Benton D Struckcheon. You're too cool.

[delrem]

38. No. Too many "agreements" are made under duress.

[MADem]

41. YES. As I said, you renegotiate...you don't "nationalize."

If they do a deal with China, they need to understand that China doesn't play.

Meet the new boss, worse than the old boss.

[delrem]

44. No it isn't. Venezuala's oil resources *are* nationalized.

That's why the US won't "play".

You do remember Reagan's latin american south american wars, right? The coups, the death squads, the threats of coups? You do realize that after every coup there was a forced "renegotiation" w.r.t. the entirety of the slave country's resources?

Oh shit, I give up...

[MADem]

54. China isn't going to build them a refinery out of the goodness of their hearts.

China isn't going to repair their fucked up oilfields for fun and games either. They're going to want a substantial cut, and the price might be steep for VZ.

They really are running out of options, though--and like I said, if they make a deal with China, China will get their money's worth. Make no mistake.

[delrem]

56. Who said anything about "goodness of hearts". sheee....

I'm going to leave it to you and Benton D Struckcheon, now.
Your little side discussion said it all.

[MADem]

57. I did--I said China wasn't going to build them one out of the goodness of their hearts.

They are going to WANT something in return, and the deal might not be terribly sweet, but VZ is up against it, because their oil is hard to refine, they've no money, and their economy is in absolute, inflation-ridden, no-goods-on-the-shelves, shambles.

If China takes them on, they are going to expect and insist upon a great deal for their trouble, make no mistake. VZ might just have to eat a less than optimal deal, because that's the best one they're gonna get.

Why that is such a complicated concept, I've no idea.

Have one of those nice days.

[delrem]

60. Now you're just carping, saying nothing relevant to the OP, or to the subthread.

[MADem]

61. I'd say an alliance w/China after VZ breaks ties w/USA is entirely relevant to the OP.

The fact that China can write their own ticket is also obvious--I don't see bidders lining up for sour, heavy oil.

If you don't want to talk about it, say so, but don't claim it isn't "relevant to the OP" when it plainly is.

Have a nice day.

[delrem]

62. give it a rest.

Russia, China, and yes Chevron, etc., are bidding on Venezuela oil.
Venezuela has been "allied with" China for several years.

If you're saying that "western" multi-nationals aren't interested in Venezuelan oil because it's "heavy" and "sour", then what's your point in the first place? But that, of course, is false, since "western" multi-nationals are currently players and that won't change because of this latest diplomatic tiff.

You seem to have a lot of stock phrases at hand to denigrate Venezuela. Everything about it. I've already met with others like you on DU and those writers seem to have something against socialism. That is, social ownership of natural resources. None of you ever seem to mind when the US overthrows a democracy, installs a dictator, a puppet, in order to privatize the national resources on US terms. You don't seem to care how the citizens of these countries get the shitty end of the stick, their birthright stolen. But you go ballistic at the notion that a country might elect a socialist party and leader and nationalize its national resources and renegotiate conditions from a position of freedom. In this case Venezuela.

[MADem]

63. Allied as in they've been paying VZ's bills for the last few years? Loaning them money to make

payroll and buy basic/goods and services?

That's not an "alliance." That is a business transaction. And China holds the paper, they can call the debt.

Don't even trot out the "you seem to" comments. There's no need to characterize me. You don't know me to save your life, so how can you say that you have "met with others like you on DU" -- that's just silliness.

VZ is in economic difficulty not because of "social ownership of natural resources" (and nothing wrong with that, so long as a country doesn't go back on their word after making agreements), they are in trouble because the "Boligarchs" have raped the country of its oil profit and stashed it in offshore banks for the personal enrichment of the "Friends and Family of Hugo." Let me pre-empt you and say I've no idea if the opposition would or wouldn't do the same if they got the chance, but the bottom line is this--thieves are running that country, keeping the bulk of the cash for themselves and throwing crumbs to the poor (but they are cake crumbs, so the poor are distracted) and they are running it straight into the ground. The economy is not diversified at all and the one thing they have--oil--is stuck in the ground because those assclowns are too busy spending money on crap and not spending anything on infrastructure and maintenance of the black-gold-goose that lays those golden eggs. They don't have refinery capacity, their fields are a mess. They aren't gittin' it done. They are very close to crisis for this reason, and China, or someone, is going to need to send in a shitload of people along with barrels of cash to fix that mess.

I'm not the one playing the "you seem to be" game, here...you are. So if you want to know about "ballistic" look at yourself--I'm not characterizing you with false assumptions like you repeatedly are doing to me.

[delrem]

64. oh oh. full stop. I'm seeing an incredibly intense hatred, here. No reasoning.

[MADem]

65. Miss Cleo, you need a new crystal ball...either that or your eyesight is failing.

It's not a question of "reasoning" and there's no "hatred" to be seen (a lame word, often yanked out when there's no response that can be made) ---these are facts.

Do a little homework on VZ's economy. You are, quite obviously, very unaware of the basics; the rampant inflation, the lack of a money supply, the paucity of basic goods on store shelves, the rampant corruption, the many loans from China that are being used as backstops and a substitute for production...eventually, without some actual work being done, that house of cards will fall. That is why VZ needs to play let's make a deal, and soon. They are in extremis.

When you take the time to do that homework, you will see that what I am saying is right on the mark.

[delrem]

66. ooooooooooooo...kay.

You hate Venezuela's socialist gov't. You hate the Bolivarian Revolution. You express your hate in stock phrases - even when that hate has nothing whatever to the topic at hand. To the OP. To the subthread. OK

[MADem]

67. No. No. No. Saying "Waaaah, you hate..." is not a substitute for a response.

And then trying to diss me about going off topic when you were the one who danced down the lane, well, that's a bit rich.

Go. Learn about Venezuela's economy. The net is full of information.

You'll see.

And I'll tell ya--if anyone "overthrows" Maduro, not that I think anyone would want to, given the mess VZ is in, I'd put more money on Hugo's longest, dearest, bestest buddy, his loyal Army pal, Diosdado Cabello, 'Bolivarian par excellence" than I would on an opposition candidate or any shadowy agent from Evil America...if I were Diosdado, though, I'd wait until things couldn't possibly get any worse before I made my move....that way he can blame EVERYTHING on his predecessor.

[ConcernedCanuk]

42. Better study up on our disgusting tar sands in Alberta.

.
.
.

China may want it, but it's going to the USA, bought and paid for at a few bucks a barrel.

It's USA interests that financed the whole mess.

China is buying the byproducts/waste - which is not usable in North America by our environmental standards/laws.

So our HarperDude is allowing/encouraging selling this toxic shit around the World.

The "good" stuff, all though it is harder to refine, is going straight South.

CC

[KittyWampus]

43. I didn't know that. I learned quite a bit in this thread.

[delrem]

45. I was talking about offers that are on the table.

I made note of it because, interestingly, nobody is suggesting that Canada can build such a refinery.

eta: not quite true!
http://business.financialpost.com/2013/03/19/b-c-should-seriously-consider-david-blacks-proposed-kitimat-oil-refinery-report/?__lsa=bba8-dd0f

[ConcernedCanuk]

48. OK - let me make it clearer

.
.
.

The USA made the tar sands happened - they basically own them

Try to steal the "USA"'s oil



What was god thinking when he put the USA's oil on Canada's land,

or under Iraq's sands? . . .

And we got refineries - some of the best

But the "waste" is not legal to use on this continent

USA gets the good stuff - just don't wanna pay Canada to refine it.

I once saw a schematic quite awhile back of where our pipelines go - no longer available on the web for some strange reason

"Trans-Canada" Pipeline ends up going through NJ to NY, not to our Eastern Provinces.

They all go to the USA, and they want to build more.

We don't need as much oil as the USA (per capita)

Don't have a military gobbling it down waging war on the whole world.

Much of our electricity comes from dams - that's we call it hydro

Also we have some of the safest nuclear plants in the World.

And with all our woodlands, many use the renewable resource of wood heat, myself included.

Check out the Avro Arrow Canada built during WW2 - USA made our wimpy leaders scrap it because it was faster and more dependable that anything flying the USA built. Couldn't embarrass the "superpower" now could we?

And the CanadaArm we built for the space station - -

We can't build a refinery?

Think again.

CC

[delrem]

50. I agree.

[Laelth]

5. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[reformist2]

6. It's really sad Obama is continuing the Bush policy of unnecessary hostility toward Venezuela.

I mean, seriously, we have a "most favored nation" relationship with China, for God's sakes.

[bread_and_roses]

8. Shhhhhh! We're not allowed to note such hypocrisies

in America. We're to view everything in isolation, so we can accept whatever twisted justification TPTB give us. Comparison, contrast, evaluation, context - all dangerous.

[denverbill]

9. We've always been at war with Eastasia. n/t

[tblue]

46. Yep. So another in a long list of sads.

[another_liberal]

10. Oh yeah, Venezuela should be the priority.

After all, we've already done such great work straightening out Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest of the World.

What a disgrace!

[madrchsod]

11. does that include china?

how about all those oil countries in the middle east? russia? geez who am i leaving out?

[DeSwiss]

58. USA?

- K&R

[bemildred]

13. That's hilarious. "crackdown on civil society". Big Brother is watching you. nt

[KoKo]

14. Sadly...I watched her giving her comments..

She was kind of scary as a voice for USA at UN. I hope that she isn't expressing Kerry's views but then again we've seen so many strange things lately.

[Hydra]

16. We have to assume that this is all approved

Last edited Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:55 AM - Edit history (1)

None of it has been walked back or people censured for giving us the wrong info.

For whatever reason, the mask has slipped off.

[karynnj]

24. The article itself says that her comments are quite different in tone and content from Kerry's

You might remember that at the OAS meeting, Kerry had a side meeting with representatives of Venezuela. It is true, that this was covered more heavily by the right wing media - which bashed Kerry for doing it. Not to mention, that unless Obama changed things back, Powers would not report to Kerry, but as Rice did - report directly to Obama. Not to mention, no matter where she reports, the views that she will express should and hopefully will be Obama's.

[Beacool]

53. You have to assume that she's expressing the administration's position.

Ditto for Kerry. The president sets foreign policy.

[geek tragedy]

15. Hissy fit. nt

[Hydra]

17. I know, quite a big one from the US lately

Makes you wonder who else we'll piss off next.

[geek tragedy]

18. You must not understand the definition

of "hissy fit."

Then again I'm one of those people who doesn't think Venezuela's government is the second coming of Jesus.

[Hydra]

20. The US is indeed having a worldwide hissy fit at the moment

I know you meant Venezuela, but as usual the projection is staggering. The Admin's defenders are accusing everyone of what the US is actually doing...and the countries around the world are merely responding in a logical fashion to it.

American exceptionalism is unraveling. We can't do the same crazy stuff anymore if we want anyone to even talk to us.

[geek tragedy]

21. If you call this kind of attention-seeking temper tantrum 'logical'

sure.

Just like it was 'logical' for Nicky Maduro to accuse the US of giving Hugo Chavez cancer.

[delrem]

27. Here we go again.....

[Lugal Zaggesi]

19. “I would never apologize for America,” Powers said repeatedly. “America is the light to the world.”

Samantha has bowed down to US foreign policy orthodoxy, and now will get confirmed by the Senate:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/175337/samantha-powers-testimony-confirms-foreign-policy-orthodoxy

The US loves Israel - check:
Samantha Power repeatedly asserted her commitment to “stand up for Israel and work tirelessly to defend it” against the “disproportionate” criticism she said it receives at the United Nations... implying that she would support Israel’s bid for a permanent seat on the Security Council.

International Law doesn't apply to the US - check:
Particularly alarming given the push for military intervention in Syria and Iran was Power’s statement that securing authorization from the Security Council should not be necessary for the United States to take unilateral action. “When US national security is threatened and the Security Council is unwilling to authorize the use of force but the president believes that it is judicious to do so, of course that is something he should be free to do,” she said. When George W. Bush felt free to launch the invasion of Iraq without UN approval in 2003, many experts considered it a violation of international law. Later, Power refused to answer Senator Rand Paul’s question about whether Congress or the President had the power to authorize intervention.

Facts are something to be manufactured to support policy - check:
She called the use of chemical weapons by the Assad regime a “fact,” although the Obama administration’s claim is unverified and contested.

The USA is #1!!! - check:
“I would never apologize for America,” Powers said repeatedly. “America is the light to the world.” She was unwilling to give a straight answer when Rubio asked if she believed, as indicated in a decade-old article, that the United States has ever committed or sponsored crimes. “I believe the US is the greatest country on earth,” she responded, and went on to refer to the abuse at Abu Ghraib as a “mistake.”

OK, Sammy knows her comic-book foreign-policy, the US Senate is impressed:
That’s what the committee wanted to hear, and Power looks set to sail through confirmation. “I look forward to your service,” said Bob Corker, the ranking Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee. “I look forward to having you go to work as soon as possible,” echoed John McCain.


Bashing Venezuela, Iran, Syria, Russia... - just part of the "orthodoxy" in Washington D.C.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

37. Point of fact,

not that anyone actually cares about these picayune details, but Truman covered his refusal to get a declaration of war from the Congress in Korea by saying he was acting under the umbrella of the UN. No declaration of war has happened in the US since WWII, and Truman, using the UN, was the one who started this.
So Power, in a weird way (entirely unintentionally I'm sure, ignorance on this is universal) was actually arguing for less unilateral intervention rather than more. Congress can be a tough audience if we the people aren't behind an effort: look at the trouble they're having with Syria.

[DeSwiss]

59. IMO, your example points out why......

...the system should be abandoned in its entirety. As you pointed out, this organization was being used from its infancy by the greater powers of the world (US) to push its agenda under the auspices of an international consensus that never existed. When the corruption level as we have today reaches the point wherein everything that it touches becomes utterly contaminated rather than serving to help correct/purify/repair the system, then it is well beyond redemption.

[dotymed]

22. The facade that is America,

is cracking fast.

I assume Snowden can REALLY expose TPTB and their quest for world dominance.....

Let the sunshine in. Maybe we will get the chance to rebuild America, without TPTB.

[ReRe]

25. This is not the Samantha Power I remember.

Again, something happens to regular ordinary people when they pass through the veil into TPTB. Is everyone else noticing this phenomenon?

[KoKo]

68. The video of her delivering her comments in Post #19

shows someone under terrible stress or coming unhinged. She was truly scary to me in body language and facial contortions as she delivered the comments in Post #19.

I don't know that much about her before..but, there were many DU'ers who thought she would be a refreshing change from the Condi Rice/NeoCon Bush group. What I saw was more of the same or worse from her. Perhaps she's stressed or she's revealing policies she truly supports....which would be Neo-Con backed from her statements and delivery, though.

[Thinkingabout]

30. Since Venuzuela has been a great supporting country to the USA I just dont see how we are going to

Make the rest of the year without their help. HA!

[ConcernedCanuk]

49. Did not Hugo Shavez give discounted or free heating oil to the poor in the USA?

.
.
.

Venezuelans, like myself and most likely some others do not dislike most USAmericans,

It's their friggen government with all their bombings and interfering!

But I guess sooner or later, it does come back to the citizens,

both those who vote, and those that do not.

(sigh)

CC

[Zorra]

39. The global corporatists are furious because Maduro won't allow them to wantonly rape the country and

exploit the people.

They were licking their chops over the thought of plundering Venezuela after President Chavez died, and are petulant and vengeful because Maduro won the election and is keeping them from killing the prey they had in sight.

[KinMd]

51. Now I won't sleep a wink all night

[ConcernedCanuk]

55. Your response reminds me of an old joke - -

.
.
.

A man returns from military duty to his wife, then starts hearing rumors that his best friend had been sleeping with his wife while he was overseas,

After a short bit, and a few beers visiting his best friend he asked him about the rumor that he had been sleeping with his wife.

His best friend replied,

Nope, not a wink.



CC

[go west young man]

52. Caught this post on John Kerry's actions towards Venezuela.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/20/kerr-j20.html

Looks like Obama and our dems are no smarter than the Bush admin when it comes to dealing with South America. We continue to go backwards. And here I was thinking we finally get things right. On a good note I'm happy for the people of South America as they are much better off without us.