Egypt bans all Muslim Brotherhood activities

[Bosonic]

Source: Reuters

CAIRO, Sept 23 (Reuters) - An Egyptian court on Monday banned the Muslim Brotherhood from carrying out any activities in the country, widening a campaign to debilitate the Islamist movement of deposed President Mohamed Mursi.

"The court bans the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood organisation and its non-governmental organisation and all the activities that it participates in and any organisation derived from it," said the presiding judge Mohammed al-Sayed.

Read more: http://www.trust.org/item/20130923115504-xbwll

[Laelth]

1. Yikes! This gives me no warm fuzzies. n/t

-Laelth

[dipsydoodle]

2. They are creating an absurdity

for which the eventual outcome is unlikely to be good.

[roody]

3. Friday night public tv was cranking

out anti Muslim Brotherhood messages.

[Sunlei]

4. isn't more than half of egypt or more, built by that org.? Egypts Leader should work on their

tourist industry. That was the base of a decent economy in Egypt and it's gone today. A pogrom against half (or more) of their citizens is horrible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

[MADem]

12. Around one percent of Egyptians belong to the MB. Their candidate got elected through an

election process that saw too many candidates running for office and a fracturing of the vote due to none of the smaller parties forming coalitions and power-sharing. The MB candidate wasn't "popular"--he was the best of two shitty choices. Almost immediately, he started seizing power, screwing with the Constitution, and fucking up the economy. He was hated well before he was ousted. If any coup was "popular," the Egyptian one was.

MB are NUTS. They are intolerant sexists who would kill YOU, yes YOU, as soon as look at you, you heretic. They need to be crushed so they don't kill any more people of minority faiths or destroy their homes, businesses or houses of worship.

The MB thinks the Pharaohs were heretics, too, who shouldn't be lionized nor should their artifacts be "worshipped" -- destroy them they say, they're graven images, and anti-Islamic. They don't want tourists fouling up the joint.

Supporting those nuts is nuts.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/muslim-brotherhood-egyptian-court

[The Stranger]

14. But that is how democracy works. If others couldn't form coalitions -- that's their problem.

No matter how much you disagree with (or hate or want to kill) someone else, you don't get to disenfranchise them.

If they are as bad as you say, then there should be no problem organizing and defeating them through the process and through legal institutions.

Why in the fuck is this so hard to understand?

[MADem]

22. Well, the way it works in Egypt is that people took to the street and "voted" with their voices to

have the Army step in. That was a coalition that EVERYONE understood.

Saying "that's their problem" like you EXPECT a culture that has never had these systems in place to roll along smartly like countries that have been doing it for hundreds of years is just, well, UNINFORMED.

The Army has had no problem defeating the MB. They're toast. And to quote you: Why in the fuck is this so hard to understand?

See, here's the thing--YOU don't know best. The people of Egypt do. They may not lift their voices in a way that YOU find acceptable, but they do it in a way that works for them.

You aren't The Decider. They are.

[The Stranger]

26. But it ISN'T in a way that works for them.

That's the problem. It isn't working. And it hasn't been.

The idea is to install institutions of democracy that work.

Taking to the streets and using force after you voted and regret your vote (or because you failed to form an effective coalition to oppose a dangerous group) is not a democracy.

And it doesn't work.

It is going back to force and dictators and armies and guns and bombs and wars and ignorance.

[MADem]

27. Don't presume to know how they feel. Don't presume that you know best.

The "idea" is for them to have a government that works....for THEM.

You want to cram a western-style democracy down their throats because they tried it once, fucked it up by sliding a guy who did not have the support of the majority of people into office, and rectified their mistake after many months of suffering by taking to the streets and pleading for the military to help them.

Stop telling them how to do it. All of the west needs to back the hell off and stop demanding that they become, in George Bush Fashion, a Little America. Look at what is happening in Iraq right now--see how well the democratic experiment is working there? Answer--just great, if you pay no attention to those car bombs and that intractable violence.

There are plenty of actors who are senior diplomats and politicians and yes, military leaders in Egypt, who understand these issues and are less interested in accruing power than shepherding Egypt to a point where they have a stable government, somewhat similar to the Turkish model. Attaturk designed the Turkish system so that the military can (and does) do a little take-over every now and again if the government stops reflecting the will of the people. Is that "democracy" to a westerner? No. But it works for them.

Egypt's economy was tossed into the toilet by Morsi. Egypt needs stability, and jobs, and public safety, and a return of tourists, and then they can give it another go. They don't need more violence, more religious persecution, and more divisiveness. They don't want a military overseer forever, but they understand that stability--which the Army can provide--is key to everything else they hope to achieve.

Egyptians agree with ME. Ask them. What does that tell you?

Here -- read what a former MB leader has to say about the terrorist organization he has disassociated himself from because of their conduct, and while you are at it, note what he says about the Armed Forces of Egypt. You just cannot, and should not, overlay your biases on this nation.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/News/4159/17/%E2%80%98The-Brotherhood%E2%80%99s-madness%E2%80%99.aspx

“The transformation that Egypt is currently undergoing is thoroughly positive. This is not the product the 30 June revolution alone. It was born during the 25 January Revolution. The people awoke in that revolution and changed. They brought down two presidents and, in between, they opposed the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. That all this took place in a short period of time reflects the growth in the awareness of this people.”

Al-Halbawi was chosen as a member on the Committee of Fifty charged with reformulating the constitution produced under Muslim Brotherhood rule, one of the stages of the roadmap agreed upon by the revolutionary forces and the military. On the controversy over the ordering of priorities in that roadmap, he states, “I am with the roadmap in its current order. What matters is that Egypt emerges from the crisis. The country had been plunged into a dark tunnel because of the catastrophic mistakes committed by the Morsi presidency, the FJP and the MB. The roadmap protects the country from falling into the hands of terrorists and aborts schemes that speak of the use of violence. The actions that were taken were necessary in order to avert foreign intervention in our domestic affairs.”

Al-Halbawi believes that there is a good balance among the political forces currently active in the political process. These forces support the roadmap and are reflected in the committee charged with reformulating the constitution. “The committee of 50 is representative of the whole of the Egyptian people, unlike the previous constitutional drafting committees,” he says. “In this transitional phase it is not sufficient to take up a pencil and straightedge and draw. We want Egypt to stand strong after having emerged from the grip of corruption and narrow political horizons. We are on the right path now and there will be positive results for Egypt.”

Asked whether he shared the concern voiced by some that the military establishment may come to exercise a stronger role in government in spite of the people’s demands for greater involvement in political life, Al-Halbawi answers: “I am with the people and the people demand a role for the armed forces. The people only had the armed forces to stand by them in the face of the madness of the Muslim Brotherhood. At the moment, there is no other political party to fill the gap left by the Muslim Brotherhood.”

[arewenotdemo]

41. I'm with you on Egypt, MADem.

Wish we were on the same side on Syria.

Remember, Morsi called for Egyptians to wage jihad against Assad.

That may have well been when the generals decided his time was up.

[Igel]

49. And that's the level of discourse.

Simple falsehood.

It's more nuanced than that. Morsi attended an MB rally. The leaders called upon him several times to endorse jihad, to call for jihad. You could say he was pressured to do the easy thing.

He did not call for jihad. He merely was present.

You're remembering a lie uttered by those who dislike Morsi and needed to make him worse so that they would look better.

"Being Human" had an interesting character. Okay, a pusillanimous character. To get humans to allow a takeover by vampires without resistance, he proposed a campaign of outing werewolves and showing that they were worse than any possible enemy, while vampires were humanity's one defense against werewolves. You're listening to the vampires and saying, "Vampires good, werewolves bad."

Most Egyptians think democracy = prosperity, abundant electricity, cheap food. It didn't happen. Much of the reason it didn't happen would appear to be those claiming that it was Morsi's fault, even though the claims were by the time it was really bad he had little control over the agencies responsible, say, for fuel and electricity. Don't like Morsi. Don't like revisionist history and power-grubbing petty dictators, either, and I don't let my revulsion at one side cause me to pretend the other side is all sweetness and light.

[MADem]

56. You insult Egyptians somewhat with your simplistic attitudes about them.

Egyptians are much more complex than that--they understand the issues affecting their ancient nation and the region in which they live, and they probably have a better grasp of world politics than most Americans. They aren't motivated simply by electricity and food. They are educated people with a rich history and culture that is world renown, unique unto them, and is a source of enormous pride.

Morsi, as the putative leader of all Egypt, should not have been "pressured" by less than one percent of his nation's population. That's not "nuance," that's common sense. As the nation's head, he should have been a leader to all the people, not just a few hundred thousand hardcore thugs bent on fundamentalist transformation and a return to the Dark Ages. His judgment was poor, and he couldn't control his people. As a consequence, MB thugs were committing atrocities on camera and gleefully posting them on YOUTUBE. They dragged shi'as out of worship services and hanged them. They burnt Coptic churches. They killed police by the hundreds.

General al-Sisi is not "all sweetness and light." He's also not a dictator. He's a millitary careerist, a respected, professional soldier and senior leader, very religious (remember, Morsi picked HIM to run the military), he's highly educated, thoughtful, and he cares deeply about his nation and her people.

The reason that Egyptians regard him as a great patriot is because of the way he's conducted himself. He wants to see Egypt PAST this morass---he doesn't want to "seize power" or do any of the simplistic things I've heard people here accuse him of wanting to do. The people WANT him to run for the Presidency. They are pushing for his candidacy. Everything I have read to this point indicates that he is not interested in the post.

Read this article, it will help you develop a fuller picture--what is revealed just might surprise you:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/18687-strongman-of-egypt-how-general-al-sisi-took-the-revolutions-thunder


Statement by military spokesman that al-Sisi will not stand for election (also, a little information about beating back the smuggling in of insurgents in via the Sinai): http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/military-spokesperson-says-sisi-will-not-run-president

[arewenotdemo]

64. He severed diplomatic relations with Syria, waved the FSA flag, and called for a no-fly zone.

Perhaps he didn't use the term "jihad", but his very presence at the rally, and his actions and words were clear to his Islamist supporters.

For the army, the Syria rally had crossed “a national security red line” by encouraging Egyptians to fight abroad, risking creating a new generation of jihadists, said Yasser El-Shimy, analyst with the International Crisis Group.

At the heart of the military’s concern is the history of militant Islam in Egypt, homeland of al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri. The military source condemned recent remarks made by “retired terrorists” allied to Mr Morsi, who has deepened his ties with the once-armed group al-Gamaa al-Islamiya.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/morsi-role-at-syria-rally-seen-as-tipping-point-for-egypt-army-1.1450612

[Dorian Gray]

63. Apparently

the Egyptians did get to disenfranchise them. And the coup was supported popularly by the citizens. And the military.

I'm just glad that none of this is happening in the US.

[Ash_F]

43. Democratic Underground: A place to hear about how awesome an armed coup can be. /nt

[MADem]

48. Don't speak to me. Speak to the vast majority of Egyptians who are thrilled to be out

from under the boot of the MB. THEY are the ones who found al-Sisi's actions "awesome."

Hopefully, this website has sufficiently progressive bona fides for your purposes--this article describes what I have been saying: http://truth-out.org/news/item/18687-strongman-of-egypt-how-general-al-sisi-took-the-revolutions-thunder

Al-Sisi, as Galal and her peers see him, is a hero who saved Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood and is now battling a war on terror, with the approval of Egypt's majority. The violent armed attacks from Brotherhood affiliates on police stations and governmental institutions has only seemed to cement al-Sisi’s appeal, rallying millions behind him....In early July, the military's overthrow of Morsi became an easy task after tens of millions of Egyptians took to the streets demanding he step down and calling on the military to protect them. Al-Sisi gave all parties 48 hours to work out differences, threatening that the army would otherwise intervene with a "road map" for the future. Morsi rejected the military proposal and said he would “protect his legitimacy with his life.” Clashes erupted between pro- and anti-Morsi supporters during the countdown.

“We (the military) rather die than see Egyptians afraid,” al-Sisi then said in a televised speech as he deposed Morsi, suspended the constitution and appointed Adli Mansour, the head of the Constitutional Court, as interim president.
Al-Sisi’s decision was met with widespread celebration as Egyptians held posters with his image high in the air, and he emerged to many as a national hero. But to the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Sisi quickly became “a traitor” who had deposed their democratically elected president, foreshadowing more violence to come. Al-Sisi later told The Washington Post that “simple Egyptian people were crying in their homes” after he took over.

In the subsequent weeks, the violent response from supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood saw scores killed and a number of churches and police stations attacked. In one case, the Kirdasa town police station was raided by militants as gruesome videos of the attack burst out on social media websites.

In one video, militants killed the Kirdasa police chief and dragged and beat his dead body in front of the camera. The Egyptian Ministry of Interior has said over a 100 of its police force has been killed in recent weeks....in popular terms, not since Gamal Abdel Nasser, the regional and international symbol of anti-colonialism in the 1950s and 60s, have Egyptians been so attached to a leader as they are now with al-Sisi.

"Word on the street" is that al-Sisi is not planning on running for the Presidency despite being urged to so do by many. If he did, he'd win in a landslide.

He is a very devout Muslim, he is highly intelligent, he is a deep thinker, and he isn't power-hungry. He takes his charge as a defender of his nation quite seriously.

You can shoot the messenger all you'd like--but it won't change the facts on the ground. The people of Egypt love al-Sisi, and they support what he is doing. Like I said, go tell them how wrong you think they are--and then step back.

[Ash_F]

55. They love him so much this new government had to be born out of the barrel of a gun? /nt

[MADem]

57. This isn't the "new government" though.

I really think you ought to understand what's going on in Egypt before you make such comments. The people took to the streets and PLEADED with the military to overthrow the government that was ruling by decree, that had torn up the Egyptian Constitution, and substituted, without approval of the people, laws that subjugated women, stripping away all their rights, and made it legal to sell young girls, children, into marriage to the highest bidder, for starters.

This interim government is in the process of rewriting the Constitution --the one that Morsi wiped his ass on and turned into a document suitable for ruling in the 1400s. 50 scholars, political and diplomatic leaders, and other highly respected people in public life are at work at this task. When that is completed, they will hold elections.

General al-Sisi will not stand for election. His spokesperson has said as much:

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/military-spokesperson-says-sisi-will-not-run-president

I stand with the people of Egypt. I think they know better than anyone in the west just what they need. They took to the streets, risking life and limb, to appeal to the military to help them, and the military responded. The Muslim Brotherhood is ONE PERCENT of the nation--and their candidate didn't deliver. He turned a democracy into a dictatorship in less than a year, and the people --with full justification -- rose up and objected.

Good for the brave people of Egypt. I hope they have better luck next time.

[Ash_F]

62. The Army rose up and objected. With guns. /nt

[Kolesar]

52. Wow. That's quite an account

as was post 27. Heretofore, I thought the Moslem Brotherhood was a bona fide popular party.

[MADem]

53. If you'd followed the election and the results, you would know otherwise.

Here--a little light reading for you.

I would strongly encourage you to take the time to read this full article--it will explain some things you apparently aren't clear on:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/18687-strongman-of-egypt-how-general-al-sisi-took-the-revolutions-thunder

General al-Sisi is a very popular man in Egypt. He's considered a patriot. The MB, OTOH, are viewed as murderous thugs, bullies, and monsters. They have no support except among their one percent of diehards, and the jihadists they've imported from other countries.

[Kolesar]

54. The Army has a wide role in Egypt

They run airport security, IIRC. They also run a lot businesses that in any other country would be commercial. I can see how they can reestablish control and have legitimacy.
It seems a little bit Cromwellian to me, but...

Good account:
Al-Sisi spoke openly about why the actions taken against Morsi and leaders in the Muslim Brotherhood were necessary. He accused Morsi of having close ties with Hamas and allowing Jihadists to enter the country and train in Sinai during his year in power. One leader in that group told the press that the prison breakout which freed Morsi during the 18 days of rage in 2011 was in fact orchestrated by Jihadist groups, and he named Hamas.

[MADem]

60. The military has ALWAYS had a wide role in Egypt, and they are highly respected.

Anwar Sadat wasn't a sweet, bald headed civilian in a quiet suit who made peace with Israel. He was Hosni Mubarak's boss, mentor and friend and Gamel Nasser's protege. Every leader of Egypt since Fat Farouk was deposed has been a senior military officer--they just don't always wear the uniform. To be absolutely accurate, even Farouk gave himself military rank; he was an admiral or something, but he couldn't row a boat across a duck pond.

Here's Farouk when he was reasonably trim; he had a liking for rich food and he went to fat in his later years:



It was Nasser who originated the "mufti" business--he felt it made him more approachable, not just at home but abroad (and if I had to guess, I think he liked the way he looked in a good suit). It also made his Pan Arab efforts (for awhile there--58 to 61-- Egypt merged with Syria and was called the United Arab Republic; Nasser ruled it, and he probably didn't want to look like he was part of a military takeover). Syria quit the union after that few year experiment.

This is General Mohamad Naguib--one of the Free Officers with Nasser--Nasser was the brains behind his coup:



Here's Colonel Charm in his uni, Gamal Nasser, whose shadow still falls across Egypt--he was larger than life:



Another of the Free Officers, Anwar Sadat--everyone remembers him making peace with Israel, but they don't really remember seeing him in a uniform very often:



In short order after Sadat's brutal murder, Mohamad Hosni Mubarak took the helm:



Here we see him with Sadat. This picture may have been taken just before Sadat was murdered, though I am not certain of that.

And of course, to the rest of the world, they usually looked like this:



Egyptians were used to seeing them in and out of uniform, though. It was nothing but a thang as far as they were concerned....

[David__77]

16. You're comparing proscription of MB to a pogrom? That is hysterically inaccurate, in my opinion.

There are no mass arrests of pro-MB activists, let along the actions that constitute a pogrom. Insurgents and terrorists are being threatened with armed force, but I cannot see how this is akin to a pogrom on any level.

[sinkingfeeling]

5. The Muslim Brotherhood had been banned fo 85 years until the 'Arab Spring'.

[WovenGems]

6. And now we know why. n/t

[MADem]

9. The minute they became "un-banned," they slaughtered a bunch of shi'as for being "cultists."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23026865

They killed Christians, targeted and destroyed their businesses, and burnt a bunch of Coptic churches too.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0818/In-Egyptian-village-Christian-shops-marked-ahead-of-church-attack-video
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23662698
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23727404


They aren't nice, they are fundy-crazies who are intolerant haters, and I can't understand why so many people here on DU cheerlead for them.

What their defenders don't realize is, that unless they were MB material, those folks they're defending would string them up for being heretics who have eschewed the One True Path.

Go figure.

[The Stranger]

15. These are crimes. Instead of bans of organizations, shouldn't the individuals responsible be

prosecuted?

Banning them only forces them underground and, more importantly, THAT IS NOT HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS.

Freedom of speech and freedom of association are rights held by individuals.

[MADem]

19. Egypt is not a Democracy. It's more of an Army led Republic.

It's a provisional military dictatorship, of, by and for the people, who gave their consent to the popular coup and who continue to prefer it to the minority-elected faux democracy it replaced. It's not optimal but it beats what it replaced.

The MB are animals and they offer as much to the public discourse as the Westboro Baptist Church or Stormfront might. They are a tiny minority hate group.

The Egyptians aren't Americans--they are a very old civilization and I think they know what's best for them--and that doesn't include the murdering, thuggish and intolerant MB, who would kill you as soon as look at you, because in their eyes you are an heretic.

I don't blame them one bit. You don't "tolerate" intolerant haters who have as a goal the murder of a huge percentage of the population for the "crime" of being Christian or Shi'a, or secular Muslims, or some other "brand" of Islam with which they find fault.

There's no talking to assholes who hold those views. They are a hate group and deserve no consideration. In any event, the judge has ruled, and they're toast. If I were the Army, I wouldn't let up, either.

The thing that will get the youth away from those assholes is J-O-B-S. And there won't be any of those until the MB is crushed and can't terrorize people and drive away tourists, which are a HUGE percentage of the national income. Mursi ruined the economy and it will take time before they get back on track. They can do it if they persevere and stay on a track of normalization. I'm sure their wealthy neighbors will pitch in and help, too--the sooner they get their economy and daily life stabilized, the sooner they can try again to hopefully elect someone who is halfway sane.

[Igel]

50. Describes Mubarak reasonably well.

At least early on.

The new enlightened ones resurrected much of his apparatus to achieve the same goals. They have the same attitudes. One wonders why doing the same thing again and expecting a different result is considered sane.

Oh. Because the alternative is unpleasant, and we are good and therefore have to choose a good side. That means we have no choice but to think one side is good. Or perhaps whatever side we choose is just deemed good. Not a big difference.

[MADem]

51. I have been given to understand that al-Sisi will not run for the Presidency.

He's a very religious man, an intellectual, and his stated purpose is to protect the nation and people of Egypt. I think he's very honest as well.

My view of this matter contravenes the stated position of our State Department. They're between a rock and a hard place, though--they know Morsi was a martinet and an authoritarian, backed by a cadre of murderous thugs.... but they hew to the system mechanics and not the actual issues.

This was, like it or not, a "popular coup." The people of Egypt overwhelmingly support the interim government, because they know they were rescued from an authoritarian, fundamental hell.

See: http://truth-out.org/news/item/18687-strongman-of-egypt-how-general-al-sisi-took-the-revolutions-thunder

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Even the US bans groups committed to violently circumventing the political process.

Those who seek to violently undo democracy are not protected by it.

[The Stranger]

65. The key is the violence part.

If they aren't violent, then they cannot be banned.

Only if there is a clear and present danger of violence, then prior restraint is allowed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

66. Agreed.

[passiveporcupine]

71. Banning them only forces them underground and, more importantly, THAT IS NOT HOW A DEMOCRACY WORKS.

You mean like Al Qaeda? We should not ban them, and only prosecute those responsible for a killing?

[happyslug]

28. Lets look at those cites:

Finally, on the morning of Aug. 14, the tension erupted. In Cairo, the police attacked two protest camps full of Morsi supporters, using live ammunition and killing hundreds. When the news reached Al Nazla, a local mosque broadcast through its loudspeakers that Christians were attacking the protesters, say residents. Hundreds of villagers marched on the Saint Virgin Mary Church. They broke down the gate and flooded the compound, shouting “Allahu akbar” and “Islam is the solution,” according to Christian neighbors.

Accusation of thrift but no injuries EXCEPT TO THE MOSLEM BROTHERHOOD PROTESTERS WHO WERE PEACEFULLY PROTESTED AND SHOT DOWN BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Now the second cite:

According to figures from Amnesty International, Jessi was one of seven Christians killed in sectarian violence in Egypt over the past few months, while shops, homes and Christian businesses have also been targeted. One church in the central town Minya was burnt down; the black flag used by jihadist militants raised over others.

Diane Eltahawy, Amnesty International's Cairo-based North Africa researcher, asks why Christians are not being properly protected.

"We are concerned that these attacks are happening in a climate of impunity, with security forces standing idly by while people are being killed, while their properties are being looted," she comments.

"They only give lip-service to attacks on Christians, and actually don't take any concrete action to combat the prevailing discrimination that exists in policies and society here."

Black Flag? That is a Salafist's (a group that SUPPORTED THE COUP) "Color" NOT Moslem Brotherhood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafist_jihadism

http://blogs.cornell.edu/mideastlibrarian/2012/03/29/tunisian-student-stands-up-to-salafists-over-flag/

Now, I have read reports that the Salafists broke off from the Moslem Brotherhood decades ago, but it seems to be that both developed at the same time but did interact. Salafists are tied in with Saudi Arabia (Wahhabism of Arabia), while the Moslem Brotherhood has always been centered around Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement

[MADem]

34. Well, they weren't "peacefully protesting" but you hold that thought if you'd like.

It's just not true and if you followed the reports while that was happening, you would know that. The MB was inciting violence in the streets, seeking martyrs for purposes of propaganda (it didn't work, they got no sympathy from the vast majority of Egyptians), and the military wasn't going to half step and draw the process out. They employed the principle of overwhelming force and shut that shit down quickly--and the Egyptian people were grateful that less than one percent of the population could no longer terrorize them in the streets without some pushback.

You just do not understand the mood of the people in Egypt. You are so far off it's not even funny. Here, get a sense of how Egyptians feel:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/17/us-egypt-protests-idUSBRE98G0V820130917

The army-backed government has been trying to restore security and create a sense of normality to bring back foreign investors and tourists to a country gripped by political upheaval since a revolt toppled autocrat Hosni Mubarak in 2011.

The Muslim Brotherhood emerged from the shadows to win elections, but millions of Egyptians became disillusioned with Mursi for giving himself sweeping powers and mismanaging the economy.

Army chief General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, who ousted Mursi, has emerged as the most popular figure in Egypt, a strategic U.S. ally, and his promises to fight terrorism have won over many Egyptians, who long for stability.....Haddad, the Brotherhood's main point of contact with international media before the crackdown, is charged with inciting the killing of protesters.

Many of the Brotherhood's top leaders have been detained on similar charges since Mursi was deposed, triggering the worst spasm of violence in Egypt's modern history.

Not sure what your point is about the Jihad flag, either--all that underlining and all caps doesn't make your point. It's pretty clear to me, though, that you don't understand how the average Egyptian feels about what is happening in their country.

[happyslug]

59. Actually Egypt is undergoing Class warfare, that no one wants to admit

First a Comment on Marx. Marx's real strength was his connection of history with economics. Prior to Marx, you see hints of that, but Marx makes the first SOLID connections. Marx was one of the first people to understand HOW revolutions occur and when (Revolutions do NOT occur as these go down hill, but after the economy had bottomed out and is recovering).

Marx considered himself a follower of Adam Smith and Smith's "Wealth of Nations" and consider his own work an extension of Smith's work, Marx foresaw what happens when profits starts to drop and what happens at that point, again relying on history to show that it had happened in the past and thus will happen in the future. As to his prediction of a worker's revolution, WWI should him to be correct (But that the World Powers would make peace instead of continuing fighting was one of his biggest errors for that is what happened in 1918, Germany decided it was more important to put down a worker's rebellion in Germany then to defeat France, Britain and the US. At the same time the British, French and US Government decided it was more important to put down pre-revolutionary strikes then to take over Germany, Thus most of Germany avoided conquest and Marx prediction that the world's workers would revolt against the ruling elite was put down).

Now, Marx was wrong on how to solve the problems of capitalism, he was correct when revolution occur. First Marx said you have to look at the four classes (or sub-classes) of Society.

Egypt's Class Struggle:

In most societies, you have four groups. In Egypt the bottom group, what Marx called the Lumpen proletariat (Today it is about 23% of the population of Egypt). They will anything for anyone for any price. The reason they are so poor, they have no other real options (i.e. kill someone or starve). It is out of this class of people Police and Soldiers to put down strikes are recruited from. 23% is extremely high for this class, most of the time it is less then 10% of the population.

The next 50 percentage points of the population is the "Near poor" or the "Working Class" often referred to a the "Working poor". Right now this 50% of the Egyptian people. They have some assets, but not much, but are the people upper class people want to hire for they know how to work for they have done work all they lives or learn what is expected of workers from their parents. These are the people employers want for they require the minimum of training (as oppose to the Lumpen poor who need more supervision AND training and thus more of the last hire, first fired group of employees, unlike people in this 50% of the population that employers want and will pay extra to keep, at least for a little bit). Right now this group supports Mursi and the Moslem Brotherhood for no one else is looking out for their interests. These are the people earning

The next 14-20 Percentage points are referred to as the "Petty Bourgeois", these are the people who live close to American Style of living. Marx made a point that it is when this group's income drop to what the Working Class is earning that you have a revolution. This group is small for "Petty Bourgeois", generally it is closer to 30% of the population. I suspect that due to Egypt's situation much of the Working Class has fallen into the Lumpen class and thus why that group is so large compared to traditional economic groupings, thus the 50% of the Working Class already contain over half of the "Petty Bourgeois", and that is NOT a good sign, if you want to avoid a revolution.

The Top 4-10% (excluding the top 1%) are the true "Bourgeois", people making $100,000 or more a year, even in Egypt. When times are good this percentage of the population earns about 30% of total income, even through they make up less then 10% of the population. Again, its number are LOW. It should be closer to 10% but a rough lookout at the number indicates it is 4% (Both are approximations).

Then you have to top 1% (or more accurately the top .1%). These are the movers and shakers of Egypt and earn about the same as the same class does in Europe and the US. This includes 7 of the richest men in all of Africa, the highest number of billionaires on that Continent:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentPrint/3/0/26899/Business/0/Egypt-has-most-billionaires-in-Africa-Forbes-repor.aspx

Now a quick look at the number above indicates 52% (the working class) look to the Moslem Brotherhood for leadership. The next two groups appear split. The "Petty Bourgeois" split badly, they want to support the rest of the "Bourgeois" but are loosing income. They see the rise of the Working Class as an attack on their property, as their share of the national economy declines. Thus they will turn against the working class and try to get workers depended on them for income to support their interests NOT the interests of their Workers. Thus I am NOT surprised at the large turnout in July, that proceeded to coup, nor the support of the Coptics for the Coup, for the Coptics tend to be of the same CLASS of people as the "Bourgeois" (In much of the Middle East the Christian populations runs the economy except for agriculture and has since Roman Times, thus tend to be middle class or "Bourgeois&quot .

That seems to be the break down of the class struggle. The Coptics and other Christians make up at least 10% of the population and thus probably just less then half of the people supporting the Coup. Very few, if any, Coptics would be in the top 1%, but they are in the "Petty Bourgeois" and "Bourgeois" economic groups (and maybe some of the working class).

A big factor in this class struggle is the Egyptian Army. The Police are volunteers, thus even if recruited from the Lumpen poor, they are loyal to their pay masters. On the other hand, the Army is Draftee. The Officers and to a degree the NCO ranks are thus reliable for in case of the Officers they are on the 1% (or hope to rise to that level). Of the NCOs they tend to be "Petty Bourgeois" who if the Army is careful, remain loyal (and that is done by making sure they pay is maintained).

The big question is the Enlisted Ranks. These are mostly from the Working Class and the Lumpen Class and thus tend to support the Moslem Brotherhood NOT the Army Chief of Staff. I suspect the Army does NOT trust them, for they have been used only in large formation (Where their officers and NCOs can keep an eye on them). The main forces of suppression tends to be the Police or special forces of the Army (Which tend to be from "Petty Bourgeois" sectors of society and thus loyal to their pay masters IF pay is maintained).

News Bias

If you look at the problem in Egypt as a Class Struggle, you also have to accept it has a News Bias. First the bottom 73-75% of the populations often do NOT have access to cell phone or the internet, some of them do not even have electricity (A good percentage does, but the totals are way less then the top 25 to 30% of the Population). On the other hand the top 25-30% of the population (remember all these percentages are approximations with a good bit of overlap) do have access to Cell Phone and the Internet. Most of this group may actually know and speak English. This brings with it a Class bias. You could see this in the Elections two years ago. The News report all had reports on all the other parties in Egypt and how they were using the Net, Facebook etc to organize the revolution. Then the election was held and the Moslem Brotherhood overwhelming won the Legislative races and then won the Presidential election with 51% of the vote. Why the difference? The people who voted for the Moslem Brotherhood do not have Cell Phones or access to the Net, while the people out New Media sought out did have access and thus could be "Found" by US news reporters. This News Bias is nothing new, it has long been a problem with US news reporting. US news reporters keep on looking for good looking English Speakers to explain what is happening in a Country, when they should be asking non-English Speakers. It is a constant problem with the US new Media one we have to watch out for and remember.


More on Egypt and its poor:

Overall about 44.4% of the Egyptian population are in the range of extreme poor to near poor:[53]
21% of the Egyptian population was near poor, meaning that about 14.6 million Egyptians can obtain their basic food requirements in addition to some basic services.
19.6% of the Egyptian population was poor, meaning that about 13.6 million Egyptians (one out of every five) had consumption expenditure below the poverty line and could not therefore obtain their basic food and non-food needs.
3.8% of the Egyptian population was extreme poor, meaning that about 2.6 million of the Egyptian poor could not obtain their basic food requirements even if they spent all their expenditure on food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Egypt

Among the poor, 7.4% of Egypt's population (about 4.4 million) lived below the core poverty line, 25% are moderately poor and 52% are non-poor.

http://www.icsw.org/copenhagen_implementation/copenhagen_papers/paper2/egypt.htm

[MADem]

61. It was the working and middle class that took to the streets and pleaded with the military to oust

Morsi, though--not elites--the "anti-Morsi" forces were a wide coalition. This guy's play-by-play is a bit of interesting current events/history.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/175041/revolution-or-coup-detat-egypt#

The anti-Morsi forces—under the name Tamarod (“rebellion”)—are broadly based, including secular and middle-class Egyptians, the left, Nasserists and socialists, current and former security forces and former Mubarak officials, and Egypt’s minorities, including Shiites and Coptic Christians who’ve been attacked and persecuted under the Muslim Brotherhood’s rule. In its statement, Tamarod said:

“There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi.”

And al-Sisi is overwhelmingly popular. He is modest, religious, intelligent, and he doesn't want the Presidency. People value security, they want the economy back on track, the tourists to return, they want to work, they want peace in their neighborhoods, stability in their daily lives, and he delivered on much of that and is working on the rest. If he can see Egypt through the next phase of a new Constitution and elections, he will be a hero on the lines of a modern day Arab George Washington.

[seveneyes]

7. Imagine if the USA had a religious Brotherhood party

And it was infesting our government while attempting to subjugate women and all the other nastiness the MB would like to do to Egypt. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking most freedom loving people would like it to go away.

[LanternWaste]

21. The Klan, were it a political organization as well, would be an apt analogy I would think.

The Klan, were it a political organization as well its present incarnation of an organization which sanctions crimes, would be an apt analogy I would think.

[seveneyes]

25. Thankfully the klan and its influence has faded

Sure, they still exist but they are more at home as the butt end of jokes. I'm confident that if the klan had a holy book, and people felt like burning it due to its content, the burning would be applauded.

[reddread]

46. tell that to those unwelcome after sundown in numerous central valley towns

meanwhile the White Aryan Resistance or whoever it is starts killing judges and prosecutors.
some jokes.

[happyslug]

36. Like supporting elections? Freedom of the Press? Freedom of Religion? Freedom of Assembly?

Muris jailed NO ONE for political crimes while he was President. While some attacks on Christians occurred while he was President, these were RARE and Mursi even denounced them when he was President.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/09/egypt-coptic-pope-sectarian-violence

Notice the Guardian questioned the control Mursi had over Egypt's security forces WHEN he was President.

How many papers and TV Stations hostile to the Moslem Brotherhood did Mursi close down? Oh, none. How many people did he jail for saying bad things about him? Again none. How many people did the Police shoot down when he was President for protesting against him? None.

What about the Government that replaced his? Close down papers and TV Stations that oppose them? All papers and TV Stations that oppose the Coup, what about political parties? again any that oppose the coup were closed down. They even stormed the Mosque dedicated to the poor for it was the center of opposition to the Coup.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/15/rabaa-al-adawiyah-photos-destroyed_n_3761648.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_Al-Adawiya_Mosque

Sorry, I have read a lot of articles saying the Mother Brotherhood was going to do this or that, but nothing specific. When it comes to details, the lack of such details tends to show Mursi had no intention of doing anything that restricted the opposition when it came to Freedom of the Press, Assembly, Religion or Politics. I can NOT say the same about the people who over threw him.

[FiveGoodMen]

67. Talking about the SBC?

[seveneyes]

68. I had to look it up on google

And the first link was to the Southern Baptist Convention, so i assume that is your reference. Yeah, if we had an SBC party infesting our government and ruled with their theology, they would fit the bill. Unacceptable even if they don't behead people, force full body garb on women and other religious nonsense.

[FiveGoodMen]

69. Yup, that was the reference.

That's the org that pre-approved Bush's invasion of Iraq in God's name.

They're everywhere trying to ban books, ban science education, stop society moving in a secular direction...just bad news.

[L0oniX]

8. Do I understand correctly....

The Muslim Brotherhood would have, wants and would try to make any government a theocratic (non democratic) government with Sharia law?

[dipsydoodle]

10. Without the Bro

its already been made clear that Egypt is sticking with Sharia law. As such that is a red herring.

[mazzarro]

11. This is the stupidest action of the military junta that is ruling Egypt

MB is not the only Islamic organization in the country. MB membership is a significant size of the population and what stops the other Islamic organizations from taking over the activities of the banned organization and even recruiting its members? Egypt is heading towards a cliff - IMO.

[MADem]

13. FALSE. MB is a TINY minority of the Egyptian population--and shrinking every day because they

are assholes who could not handle power:

Thought to number between 300,000 and 1 million members, the Brotherhood remains highly unpopular among much of the rest of Egypt's population of 85 million, who blame the group for trying to grab too much power following Morsi's election in 2012.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/23/muslim-brotherhood-egyptian-court


Best case, they are 1/85th of the Egyptian population.

By contrast, ten percent of Egyptians are Coptic Christians.

Just because someone is a member of the majority Sunni Muslim faith does not make them a MB nut job. It's not cool to lump them in with those MB crazies. Most Egyptian Muslims HATE those guys. They didn't even get the support of most Egyptians in the last election--in fact, so many people just didn't vote that they cruised to victory with a stunning MINORITY of actual support.

They've ruined the economy, driven away the tourists who are the life-blood of the nation, terrorized minority faiths, and they've made everyone's life miserable--they are the Westboro Baptist Church of Egypt. Nasser, Sadat, and Mubarak were not wrong about those guys, even if they were ham-handed in other regards.

They deserve to be banned, they are a hate group.

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. Long live the coup! Glorious military rule! Pharoah is smiling.

[MADem]

20. If the MB had their way, the Pyramids would be torn down and Pharoah would be no more.

Those nutjobs would wipe the smile off his face.

10 year old girls would be married off to 80 year old men, after they were mutilated. We're not talking about "sharia" law, here, we're talking a crazed interpretation of Islam that the vast majority of Muslims think is totally whack.

Maybe you think it is cool for less than one percent of the population, a bunch of crazed, thuggish murdering assholes, to be able to dictate to the majority, but most Egyptians don't feel that way. That is why they supported the provisional military government, and continue to support it for the near term, anyway.

Of course, they understand the issues. They know what the MB is about.

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. You've got a real hard-on for these guys, don't you?

You, like the generals, were willing to drown Egyptian democracy in a sea of blood to get rid of them.

I don't agree with their ideology, but they are hardly the most conservative Islamist political force in the country. Maybe you prefer the Salafists, who are aligned with your heroic generals.

They won the elections. They governed poorly and, to some degree, thuggishly (although thuggery has been prevalent throughout the Egyptian revolution on all sides). But in a democracy, you remove rulers by elections.

Their government was sabotaged from the outset not only by their own deficiencies but also by all the cool liberal kids who couldn't accept their loss at the polls and the Mubarek deep state--the institutions of authoritarian power, the police, the Interior Ministry, the Army, the judiciary. They made sure Morsi couldn't govern, and they wrecked the economy on purpose to help bring him down.

The deep state won. Democracy was killed. And the liberals better shut up now or they can join the Brothers in the graveyard and the prisons.

But I'm sure you'll come up with more excuses for the military's massacres. It was only last month they gunned down a thousand Egyptians in the streets in one day. Are we supposed to forget that because you don't approve of the Brotherhood?

[MADem]

24. You have a strange need to use sexual imagery when discussing politics--why is that?

It's immature, creepy and doesn't help your argument. Please keep your "hard on" imaginings to yourself--no one wants to dig that deep in your head.

What "sea of blood?" Order is returning to Egypt. People feel safe in their homes again.

Democracy was not "killed." A bunch of power grabbing, Constitution-subverting, authoritarian assholes were ousted. I 'don't approve of' those dictatorial thugs, those One Percenters, trying to force their will on the majority of Egyptians without any recourse. To most of Egypt--the vast majority, in fact--the rout of Morsi was WONDERFUL news. The abolition of the MB is a cause for celebration--sort of like running the KLAN out of town after they had themselves a lynching party (which is what the MB did to a bunch of shi'a a few weeks ago) and burned down churches (which is what the MB has done a lot of houses of worship in recent months, too). Egyptians trust the military to guide the path forward in the near term.

How did Mubarak get ousted? Through the ballot box? Hell no. People took to the streets.

How did Morsi get ousted? Same way.

You are such a cultural chauvinist that you can't abide any society--even an ancient one that is many thousands of years old that has always had a profound appreciation for strong, decisive and positive leadership, from the Pharaohs to Nasser and beyond-- doing things in ways that don't marry up with your own neat little western paradigms.

For now, this situation is working for Egypt (which is not organized as a democracy--they are a republic, but never mind that). They need stability before they can move forward, and, like it or not (and we know you don't), the military in Egypt is one of the most trusted institutions going. That probably grinds your gears, but too doggone bad for you--you're not Egyptian, you're not living their reality, and you can't decide what is best for them or who they trust. They'll do that.

If the generals don't move fast enough to suit them, they'll take to the streets again--it works. For THEM. They aren't glued to their keyboards; they're still willing to get off their asses and "vote" with their presence in the streets and squares. It may not be as neat as filing in, in an orderly fashion, marking a ballot and leaving with a purple finger, but it is what it is.

I have more faith in the people of Egypt and their institutions--as well as their ability to make change by raising their voices in unison-- than you do.

[Comrade Grumpy]

33. What "sea of blood"? Are you fucking joking? Or just suffering memory loss?

It's only been a few weeks since your beloved generals gunned down first a couple of hundred one day, then a couple of hundred more a few days later, then a thousand or so.

"Order is returning to Egypt. People feel safe in their homes again." And I suppose the trains run on time. Your apologia for fascist massacres is appalling.

Sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities with my previous post. Let me say instead that you appear to have an obsessive compulsion to trash the Muslim Brotherhood, going to ridiculous lengths to do so ("the 1%." Really?), while totally ignoring the machinations of the old Mubarek pillars of power, which are now totally in control. I guess it's easier to justify mass murder if you demonize the victims.

[MADem]

38. You just are not in touch with the feelings of the Egyptian people.

Why don't you have a look at what is happening in the courts in Egypt, that will help you start to understand.

The MB leadership was INCITING the violence in the streets, in order to create martyrs in a hope of rallying people to their cause. Those protests were not peaceful, not by a long shot. The leadership are in court on charges to that effect.

Their attempts to rally supporters through violence didn't work. No one was moved. The Egyptian people were glad that the military stomped the living shit out of those terrorists and they are delighted that the courts have shut them down, too.

The military is well regarded is Egypt--they are both supported and popular. The Egyptians--50 experienced politicians, diplomats, intellectuals, etc. from all corners of society (not enough women, unfortunately; only five) --- are hard at work crafting a new Constitution after the MB wiped their ass on the old one--that work is actively in progress.

I know this irritates you, but al-Sisi is the most popular man in Egypt; he may run for the Presidency and many hope he will because of the way he has handled this crisis.

The MB is HATED, they are viewed as terrorists.

You can yell at me all day, it won't change facts. You just don't appreciate the situation there, and you apparently don't choose to understand it, for reasons that are not clear to me, but I can't continue to try to explain it to you.

You are invested in giving undeserved status to a few hundred thousand violent rabble rousers who want to drag Egypt, kicking and screaming, back into a stone age where women are repressed and children are molested, and young girls are forced to marry before they become teenagers. That's not going to happen, the people do not want it, America's input is not desired, and the US can't play carrot and stick with money on this matter because the Saudis will make up the difference if they try (and the US has an interest in Egypt staying buddy-buddy with Israel), and the Egyptians are determined to stabilize their country, restore their economy and their tourism industry, and ensure the public safety.

They have the strong support of the Arab League, as well, and their path is clear. They will not be dissuaded. They will have new elections, but it will be when they've finished the work on the Constitution and when the country has been stabilized.

[Comrade Grumpy]

39. Your cheerleading for massacres is duly noted.

"the military stomped the shit out of those terrorists."

They fucking massacred more than a thousand people in one day. Civilian protesters. Not armed terrorists. (While a very few guys with guns eventually showed up, it is pretty much undisputed that this was an attack by the military on the protesters.) Calling the victims of the massacre "terrorists" says a whole lot more about you than it does about them.

"Look what's happening in the courts in Egypt." That would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic. The courts have been a tool of the old Mubarek regime from the beginning. That's why Morsi tried to reign them in in the first place.

You and some segment of the Egyptian population can laud mass-murdering military thugs if you wish. I don't wish to.

[MADem]

40. Your willful obtuseness is demonstrated by your post.

The terrorists incited the violence, and the military responded with overwhelming force. It most certainly wasn't "a very few guys with guns" but your attempt to play a minimizing MB PR flak IS noted.

Read Clausewitz. You can do it slow, or you can do it fast. You can do it by degrees, or you can do it with overwhelming force. If they'd dragged it out, more people would have been killed at the hands of the MB. One percent of the population would have wreaked havoc on the remainder.

I am not talking about "some segment" of the Egyptian population. I'm talking about the OVERWHELMING majority of Egyptians. Again, al-Sisi is --like it or not--very popular these days.

I suppose I could accuse you of calling all Egyptians "cheerleaders for massacres" because they are happy that the military dispatched the MB, but I am not obtuse. I understand their feelings and I know what they endured under Morsi's reign of abject mismanagement and abrogation of basic rights.

Go on and keep fretting and hollering at me--it doesn't change a damn thing. The MB is toast, and good thing, too.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. I suspect the generals have just whipped up a perpetual insurgency.

With al-Zawihiri saying "I told you so" to the criminalized Islamists.

[uppityperson]

30. Waiting with anticipation

For the op

[NRaleighLiberal]

32. .

[uppityperson]

42. Aw, I missed it.

And hi to you too.

[pinto]

31. How so? I don't know which faction(s) actually represent freedom in Egypt, on the ground.

Or how, we looking from abroad, define freedom in Egypt. The West and Egypt may see it in different terms. A convoluted situation there, it seems.

[EgyptianDentist]

35. So Happy

Theres a very happy Egyptian girl one of the origins of terrorism is banned.
O <3

[EgyptianDentist]

37. by the way

The US keeps saying its gonna revise relations with egypt after the june 30 revolution.. I cant wait for that day when US ends relations with egypt!! I remember crying so bad as a school girl when 9/11 happened, brotherhoods were so happy that day and I was telling them they have no hearts.. lol I was a fool, there are 2 ends for a chain and it seems like US relations with fundamentals from all religions and oil production is the only factor for US in middle east.. the other end of the chain..

PLEASE end relations with Egypt We gained nothing, even the US public are so brainwashed to see the truth, they keep asking where are the good ppl in that area to fight terrorism and when we do it they call it opression.. If I tell you for example MB tried to kill Nasser a national hero that has given Egyptian women the right to vote, you are gonna tell me he was a hated dictator.
Theres nothing good that can come from US cause although it is a strong country with great values, the country in middle east is a slave to oil, israel, and "moderate" islamists ..haha.. those moderate islamists just hate christians, women, seculars, and modern values..
YOU can take "moderate" islamists to US, end relations with Egypt, and leave us alone to build a modern country. Why do you keep saying you are gonna revise it with doing nothing? Just Do It!

[arewenotdemo]

45. "those moderate islamists just hate christians, women, seculars, and modern values.. "

That sums it up well. And precisely why Obama's war against Syria is an abomination.

[DeSwiss]

58. It's at times like these.....

...when you realize that the boobs in-charge have no idea what to do. Repression and censorship is always the last stand of the idiot.

- K&R

[reddread]

70. kick for clarity

we have some interesting posters here.