German Tax Collectors Are Volunteering For Duty In Greece

[CountAllVotes]

More than 160 German tax collectors have volunteered for possible assignments in Greece to help the struggling Mediterranean country gather tax more efficiently, the Finance Ministry in Berlin said on Saturday.

The offer risks fuelling resentment among Greeks who have already reacted angrily to earlier German calls for the appointment of a "budget commissioner" to monitor the Greek government's management of its finances.

German media published news of the possible tax advice mission two days before the German parliament is due to vote on whether to endorse a new 130 billion euro ($175 billion) bailout package for Greece.

International lenders say the public debt burden that forced Greece to seek a bailout two years ago has burgeoned partly because many Greeks evade the tax net.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/german-tax-collectors-are-volunteering-for-duty-in-greece-2012-2#ixzz1nQKzpSIG

Am I the only one out there that is saying ENOUGH already?

[dipsydoodle]

1. Greece had already increased their number of tax collectors

within their public sector in acknowedgement of collection issues. Within the EU there are no problems with what would otherwise be cross border employment so there really isn't anything unusual here.

[CountAllVotes]

2. however

The banks in Greece are now aka Bank of Berlin.

Excuse me ...

[dipsydoodle]

5. That's unassociated from your own OP

.

[CountAllVotes]

7. what is with the picture then?

That is on the article itself if you click on it, you shall see the picture.

To hell with the damn Germans and their power grab.

I hope Merkel fails and yes, I mean that!

[dipsydoodle]

11. The fact of the matter is

Greece hasn't got a recognisable tax collection system so hopefully this will help them set one up.

The part which isn't mentioned here is that their debt repayments will now be overseen with the repayments taking priority over all other government expenditure. That's why they will need their due tax receipts more than ever now.

[DeSwiss]

27. +1000

The Germans aren't interested in helping Greece. They just want to help themselves. This EU austerity plan the Germans are pushing upon Greece is both stupid and doomed. In any case, the Germans had better bring their own ink.

- When the voting takes place in April, I believe the people of Greece will vote for the Iceland Plan.....

K&R

Iceland Showed The World How To Become Free

Contrary to what could be expected, the crisis resulted in Icelanders recovering their sovereign rights, through a process of direct participatory democracy that eventually led to a new Constitution. But only after much pain. Geir Haarde, the Prime Minister of a Social Democratic coalition government, negotiated a two million one hundred thousand dollar loan, to which the Nordic countries added another two and a half million. But the foreign financial community pressured Iceland to impose drastic measures. The IMF and the European Union wanted to take over its debt, claiming this was the only way for the country to pay back Holland and Great Britain, who had promised to reimburse their citizens.

Protests and riots continued, eventually forcing the Icelandic government to resign. Elections were brought forward to April 2009, resulting in a left-wing coalition which condemned the neoliberal economic system, but immediately gave in to IMF demands that Iceland pay off a total of three and a half million Euros. This required each Icelandic citizen to pay 100 Euros a month (or about $130) for fifteen years, at 5.5% interest, to pay off a debt incurred by private parties vis a vis other private parties. It was the straw that broke the reindeer’s back.

What happened next was extraordinary. The belief that citizens had to pay for the mistakes of a financial monopoly, that an entire nation must be taxed to pay off private debts was shattered, transforming the relationship between citizens and their political institutions and eventually driving Iceland’s leaders to the side of their constituents. The Head of State, Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, refused to ratify the law that would have made Iceland’s citizens responsible for its bankers’ debts, and accepted calls for a referendum.

In the March 2010 referendum, 93% of Icelanders voted against repayment of the banker's debts. The IMF immediately froze its loan. But the revolution (though not televised in the United States), would not be intimidated. With the support of a furious citizenry, the government launched civil and penal investigations into those responsible for the financial crisis. Interpol put out an international arrest warrant for the ex-president of Kaupthing, Sigurdur Einarsson, as the other bankers implicated in the crash fled the country. But Icelanders didn't stop there: they decided to draft a new constitution that would free the country from the exaggerated power of international finance and virtual money. link

[CAPHAVOC]

30. We need the Iceland plan here.

[TBF]

55. And that is the right answer. nt

[AdHocSolver]

39. Two key paragraphs in the story about Iceland's debt crisis.

(snip)
**********
What happened next was extraordinary. The belief that citizens had to pay for the mistakes of a financial monopoly, that an entire nation must be taxed to pay off private debts was shattered, transforming the relationship between citizens and their political institutions and eventually driving Iceland’s leaders to the side of their constituents. The Head of State, Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, refused to ratify the law that would have made Iceland’s citizens responsible for its bankers’ debts, and accepted calls for a referendum.
**********


(snip)
**********
In the March 2010 referendum, 93% voted against repayment of the debt. The IMF immediately froze its loan. But the revolution (though not televised in the United States), would not be intimidated. With the support of a furious citizenry, the government launched civil and penal investigations into those responsible for the financial crisis. Interpol put out an international arrest warrant for the ex-president of Kaupthing, Sigurdur Einarsson, as the other bankers implicated in the crash fled the country.
**********

[CanonRay]

3. That's going to go over well

like British tax collectors in 1775 Boston.

[itsrobert]

4. I was about to post something similiar

Great Minds?

[dipsydoodle]

6. That's not the same at all.

They'll be working for the Greek government collecting tax due on their behalf. In the instance you quoted the tax collectors were working on behalf the UK government.

[sudopod]

9. Oh you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian_(soldiers)

[CanonRay]

15. And all the money winds up back in German banks

some difference.

[dipsydoodle]

35. Only if they were the sole lenders

Which they are not.

Anyway - the deal is make the repayments in a timely manner when due or no money. Do think they should just fold and default instead ?

[TBF]

54. Yes, I would rather KKE take over the government and

do an Iceland. They are the only sane ones on this globe right now.

And no I am not being sarcastic.

[magical thyme]

47. as I recall, the American colonies

were British colonies governed by the UK.

[hlthe2b]

8. Boy, they just can't resist adding more insult to injury..

I'm sure they will have a cheering section from our RW assholes though.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Oh those poor Greeks...

with a GDP barely twice Alabama's and no indigenous industry other than shipping and tourism.

The Greeks who lied for years and happily cooked the books until it all unraveled and they couldn't pay the bills they ran up.

Now they have to pay their way. Doctors and merchants having to actually pay taxes! Will the horror never end?

[jwirr]

14. As long as it is the "rich" who are going to pay the taxes.

[sudopod]

20. I got a little mad. Nice try. 3/10

"The Greeks who lied for years and happily cooked the books until it all unraveled and they couldn't pay the bills they ran up." The politicians, bankers, ruling class, etc.

"Now they have to pay their way" Garbage men, teachers, etc.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. Gimme a break. Of course the politicians...

wrote the rules, but EVERYONE was happy to keep the charade going.

You really think it was politicians and bankers insisting on retirement for the masses at 50? With nothing but borrowing from foreign banks to pay for it?

[abelenkpe]

24. Read this:

http://suddendebt.blogspot.com/2011/09/debt-and-second-law.html

[abelenkpe]

45. Or this:

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/02/14/busting-north-south-stereotypes/

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/01/greek-german-work-hours-compared.html

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/11/18/371752/hard-working-italians-vs-lazy-germans/

[abelenkpe]

59. Krugman's latest on Greece and Europe

What Ails Europe?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/krugman-what-ails-europe.html?_r=2

But let’s do this systematically. Look at the 15 European nations currently using the euro (leaving Malta and Cyprus aside), and rank them by the percentage of G.D.P. they spent on social programs before the crisis. Do the troubled GIPSI nations (Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy) stand out for having unusually large welfare states? No, they don’t; only Italy was in the top five, and even so its welfare state was smaller than Germany’s.

So excessively large welfare states didn’t cause the troubles.

Next up, the German story, which is that it’s all about fiscal irresponsibility. This story seems to fit Greece, but nobody else. Italy ran deficits in the years before the crisis, but they were only slightly larger than Germany’s (Italy’s large debt is a legacy from irresponsible policies many years ago). Portugal’s deficits were significantly smaller, while Spain and Ireland actually ran surpluses.

Oh, and countries that aren’t on the euro seem able to run large deficits and carry large debts without facing any crises. Britain and the United States can borrow long-term at interest rates of around 2 percent; Japan, which is far more deeply in debt than any country in Europe, Greece included, pays only 1 percent.

(more at link)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this and the other stories will help sway you away from thinking like a republican that Greece is alone responsible for it's woes and that it's suffers from being too much or a welfare state?

[fujiyama]

21. I don't understand the excuses for Greece

No one ever forced them to lie to get into the EU and have a bloated and inefficient public sector that produces nothing of value and allows people to retire in their 50s. Talk about ridiculous. And now people riot. Maybe they should default, leave the EU and then become a pariah nation where no one would lend to them for the next 20 years or so...

And Goldman Sachs should be held accountable for helping them conceal their debt.

[magical thyme]

46. they did not offer full retirement in their 50s

Retirement benefits available to people in their 50s were *significantly* smaller than full retirement benefits available by waiting until their 60s.

A structure similar to ours: our payout at 62 is ~2/3s what you get if you wait until 66, and half what you will get if you hold out until you're 70. Financial advisors tell you to hold out until you are 70 if you can, because in the long run you will do much better. It actually costs the government *less* if you retire younger and take the smaller payout.

In Greece if people retire in their 50s, the much smaller payout actually costs the government far *less* than if they wait. It is dramatically smaller -- I think half again of what they would get had they waited until their early 60s, and 1/4 of waiting until 70ish.

[fujiyama]

56. My mistake

Thanks for clarifying.

[magical thyme]

48. they should default and become a pariah nation

just like Iceland. A lot of people said nobody would loan to them for 20 years or so. And now Iceland has been named investment grade...but in 2 years, not 20. And as a sovereign nation.

Their politicians lied them into the EU, not unlike our politicians lying us into the unending war on terra, endless bankster bailouts, etc. We *should* be rioting in the streets over what's been done to us. We could learn from the Greeks.

But we do agree on one point. Goldman Sachs should be held accountable for setting the up.

[former9thward]

53. Apples and Oranges.

Iceland never defaulted on its sovereign debt. No European nation has.

[slackmaster]

12. So many potential jokes

Where to begin?

[jwirr]

13. I may be paranoid but that does not sound good to me.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. I thought that the Germans lost WW II.

[CTyankee]

17. this came to mind...Very Interesting...but stupid

for those old enough to remember Rowan and Martin's Laugh In.

[CountAllVotes]

19. lol ...

Yep I remember ... it was indeed "velly intellesting" ...

[1monster]

26. Old enough to remember...

(but can't) Which came first Rowan and Martin's "Very Interrresting" or Benson and Hedges longer cigarette commercial?

[Art_from_Ark]

43. Laugh-In debuted in January 1968

Benson & Hedges aired their first commercial in 1967 (one of my favorite commercials of all time).

http://www.tvparty.com/vaultcomcig.html

[FailureToCommunicate]

33. Ah...such memories (I think). Thanks for the...

what was I saying?

Seriously, the world would be a better place, IMHO, if we had **more** 'Laugh In'

and **fewer** banksters

Fraudulent loans are wrong, no matter who- or which - whole countries - got saddled with them.

[reACTIONary]

40. Sock it to me, Sock it to me, Sock it to me... (nt)

[amandabeech]

62. Sock it to me? n/t

[reACTIONary]

64. "Sock it to me" was...

... a running gag and catch phrase on Laugh In. The gag had someone rythmatically repeating "Sock it me" over and over, and then something silly / bad would happen. Like a bucket of water would be dumped on him.

Nixon actually went on the show and did the "sock it to me" gag. Yes, Nixon, on Laugh In, saying "sock it to me".

I think the phrase came from a pop song that included the line "Sock it to me baby, let it all hang out".

[ELKODCH]

18. tankes

v good

[xchrom]

22. Not The Onion. Nt

[1monster]

25. Not showing a lot of sensitivity toward the Greeks by the Germans, considering

history. Germany's invasion of Greece during WWII helped create political upheval in that country that lasted decades longer than WWII.

[liberalhistorian]

28. Well, isn't that just so very sweet of the Germans, NOT

Maybe the fact that the unemployment rate is sky-high and hardly anyone has jobs, and of those who do have jobs many have not actually been paid in months, might make it a bit hard for those oh-so-eager tax collectors to squeeze even more blood from the stone. And, once again, it's the little people who are being squeezed the most. If you don't have and can't get a job, or if you aren't being paid a salary if you DO have a job, then how the fuck are you supposed to pay those taxes the Germans are so damned eager for?

[cstanleytech]

29. If this was about squeezing the money out of peasants you might actually have a point but its not.

Atleast according to the article its about getting the Greek system up and running so those who do owe taxes actually pay it rather than shirk their duty (like GE does here in the US).
Without a working collection and enforcement agency for their taxes it will make it even harder for Greece to get out of the hole they are in.

[CTyankee]

34. I think people understand this but the peasants have been screwed in this whole deal while the

oligarchs have prospered. It seems to me that the Greeks could view the German bill collectors as oppressors, not liberators, and that is the problem...

[cstanleytech]

37. Hopefully the majority of greek citizens will realize that they are neither oppressors nor

liberators but rather simply people trying to lend a hand to fix a system thats broken.

[QA_IT_Pro]

31. Nice ida

Post to qualify to post

[Bradical79]

36. Well, someone has to do it.

A big reason Greece is in this mess is that there was essentially no tax collection. Unlike some countries where the 1% is essentially just screwing the 99%, the Greek politicians were very good at creating a culture of corruption throughout the country so no one would call them on their own bullshit. Of course they'll have to collect taxes from the wealthy, otherwise the economy will just collapse again, but Greece is completely lacking in some basic structures vital to any nation's economy, including tax collection.

I'm kind of the opinion that when things get a fucked up as that, they do need to take that Iceland approach and start from scratch. But, I'm no economist :-P

[Nye Bevan]

38. If you want the same currency as Germany, and the same living standard as Germany,

you need to pay taxes like the Germans do, and be as productive as the Germans. Being in the Euro carries responsibilities as well as benefits.

[fasttense]

44. Can they get the salaries the Germens get, how about the free college education?

How about the very strong Union representation on the board of directors of most German corporation?

How about the free healthcare?

Did you know that an austerity tax has been added to all household electric bills in Greece? The average electric bill, including the tax, converted to dollars, is about $470, every single month. Could an average German household be able to pay bills like this every month?

The Greek people should have demanded prosecution of banksters and politicians when the hidden debts were revealed. But it seems the average Greek citizen did not understand what was going on.

[magical thyme]

49. they are more productive than the Germans

in fact, statistics show that several of the PIIGS nations are more productive than the Germans.

They should leave the Euro. They should never have been suckered into joining, but they should get out and sooner rather than later.

[DonCoquixote]

41. I do not defend the greeks

However, the Germans have no Halos. They liked the idea of an EU when they could order about weaker countries, but now, they hate the idea of helping them.

Guess what Berlin. YOU wanted a federal government, YOU wanted to be the new superpower (although it seems China beat you to it.) As the Russians and we Yanks can tell you, part of that is dealing with the weaker states that have no shot in hell of being as productive as others, yet demand a good share of the spoils, and who will still spit on you, and tell their children to hate you and dream of the day when they will kill you. The Soviets had Belarus, we have Texas.

Admittedly, you are reluctant because back in the days of the masstrict treaty, Schroder cut his budget, and others, namely France and England, just blew cigarette smoke in your face and said "You cut your budget!" Schroder lost to Merkel.

However, none of that hides the fact you had ambitions. True, so did London and Paris, but London never committed to the Euro, and Paris was never going to be predictable enough; one minute they might vote Sarkozy, next a full communist, and the next, Le Pen. You balking at the idea of helping a state (and by that, I do not mean simply trying to get more power) is comic. And we are not supposed to laugh? Add to this you want to slash the very social programs that made Europeans glad they were not Americans.

I thank you, because just when I had begun to think that our system was beyond remdemption, when I had wondered if our constitution really was a "piece of paper", you go ahead and remind us that some aspects of the Federal experiment were done right here. Yes, we are screwed, but so are you, and right now, it looks like Beijing is shaking their heads at us all. Not that they are any less screwed.

[Democat]

42. Some people think that the middle class in other EU countries should pay taxes for the Greeks?

The money that is going to bail out Greece isn't coming from nowhere. It's coming from taxpayers in other countries. I can't understand the people on DU who think it's okay for middle class or above in Greece to not pay taxes so that factory workers in Germany can pay extra taxes to bail them out?

There is a lot of reactionary thinking here on DU that doesn't make any sense.

[TheKentuckian]

52. Because the poor and working folks will be made to pick up the tab

and as we know poor and working folks don't pay taxes because their's are taken in advance before they get paid and they will be squeezed and all the rich, wealthy, and even the upper class will continue to be rich, wealthy, or upper class with nice homes and swimming pools.

I also think that a considerable piece is nefarious since cutting wages for poor folks will not increase revenue over any timeline. They are being shock doctrined into submission but they are only the first and what goes around comes around, they'll be gunning for our poor and working class folks, hamer and tongs, before long and already are setting up for it.

I am also made to think of drowning people climbing onto the backs of other drowning people because of the response from most. I think some think the Greeks can be thrown under to somehow allow us to get off a bit easier or even for political purposes.

[Nihil]

58. As Democat said, why should it be the taxpayers in OTHER countries picking up the tab?

Democat said "the middle classes" but it applies to every taxpayer - poor, working,
middle, rich - anyone who is currently paying tax in the other countries is apparently
expected to be delighted about the prospect of *their* taxes going to support the
people in a country who simply don't care enough about paying their own taxes.

Why should the other countries have to cut *their* services to make up the financial
shortfall of the Greeks?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[TheKentuckian]

61. The wealthy of whatever nation can pick up the tab, I'm going to stand

with the poor and working class folks.

Those that danced to the music can pay the piper and cutting wages isn't going to produce revenue.

[Nihil]

63. And I'm going to stand with the working class folks of the nations who *do* pay taxes.

You seem to have skipped part of my reply:
>> it applies to every taxpayer - poor, working, middle, rich - anyone who is
>> currently paying tax in the other countries is apparently expected to be
>> delighted about the prospect of *their* taxes going to support the people
>> in a country who simply don't care enough about paying their own taxes.

It's all well & good to declare "the wealthy of whatever nation" but it's *everyone* in
"whatever nation" except Greece that are "picking up the tab".

> Those that danced to the music can pay the piper

Yep and those who lived their lives without paying taxes can damn well start now
before adding any more financial load to the poor people in other countries who've
been paying for their own services and yet who are expected to put up with cuts
to those services to help the lazy bastards in Greece avoid having to do the same.

[magical thyme]

50. it's a lovely country with a wonderful climate

Duty there would be a working vacation. And doubtless they'll be able to shop around and be ready to snap up real estate bargains at the perfect moment.

[brentspeak]

51. But who will volunteer to be the tax collectors' bodyguards?

I don't think these wannabe tax collectors have thought this through completely.

[annabanana]

57. HA! What could **possibly** go wrong?

No one could have foreseen. . . .

"No.. Don't"

[NickB79]

60. I hope the gun laws are pretty tight in Greece

That, or maybe the German army will lend them some body armor.

[LetTimmySmoke]

65. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece_during_World_War_II