Egypt gunmen open fire on Coptic Christian wedding in Cairo
Source: BBC
Three people, including a girl aged eight, died when gunmen on motorcycles opened fire on a wedding party outside a Coptic Christian church in Cairo.
At least nine others were wounded in the attack in Giza, officials said.
There was no immediate claim of responsibility.
Egypt's Coptic Christian community has been targeted by some Islamists who accuse the Church of backing the army's overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi in July.
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24605130
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
golfguru
(4,987 posts)Is'nt Islam a religion of peace?
dballance
(5,756 posts)They are the extremists like the Westboro Baptists are Christian Extremists. They are extremists like the IRA are Catholic extremists who committed terrorist acts.
People like those who fired on the wedding or took hostages at that mall are no more representative of all of Islam than Pat Robertson or George Tiller's murderer or Neo-Nazi Skinheads are representative of all Christians.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I'm sure somebody has done a study ----
Like Bill Maher said, Muslims actually tend to follow what their holy book says. When is the last time you read a story about some christian lady shooting her neighbor for working on a Sunday?
Response to dballance (Reply #3)
Post removed
jessie04
(1,528 posts)"Islam is much more violent than other religions based on number of terror acts."
Never thought I would see that.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)And thousands of Muslims look on in horror.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)and the UN does nothing.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And about the role of the Copts in Egyptian politics.
Shemp Howard
(889 posts)I'm a bit puzzled by your comment about the role of the Copts in Egyptian politics. What are you saying? That these attacks on innocents are somehow understandable, or excusable, because of the politics of other Copts?
jessie04
(1,528 posts)its disgusting.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)have to do with this story? Are you okay with what has been happening to the Copts since the Arab Spring hit Egypt?
jessie04
(1,528 posts)and I'll bet money he wont have the decency to respond.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...which is now the new regime. They are political foes of the Islamists, not just apolitical believers. That is part of the context of the attacks on the Copts.
I am not excusing church burnings and the like--those are crimes--merely pointing out that this isn't happening in a vacuum.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)but also view them as RELIGIOUS foes that have no place in a future Islamic state.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Has this not been happening with respect to the Copts in Egypt?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The first thing that comes to mind is the massacre of Moslem Brotherhood supporters this year. Actually, the repeated massacres. The coupocracy has managed to kill several thousand of them.
There have been attacks on the Copts, too. You might ask them about when the military gunned down their people in November 2011.
But there have been other attacks as well, pretty clearly sectarian. Those are discriminatory and criminal, but I would argue that they do not rise to the level of genocide. That claim amounts to special pleading by the OP.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Would you say the same about Al-Qaida supporters?
Is genocide being committed against them?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Here's what Wikipedia has:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts
There appear to have been a handful of deaths of Copts in the post-revolution era. It seems that the military killed more Copts in a single day in 2011, the Maspero massacre, than those genocidal Islamists have.
Again, this is not to minimize the persecution Copts face, but to put it in its proper place.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)And I stand by them.
this is open genocide against these people.
Your refusal to admit that is .... upsetting to say the least.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They are subject to bigotry, but the attacks against them are actually quite limited.
I suspect the number of demonstrators killed in one day by the military far exceeds the number of Copts killed in political and religious violence since the uprising began.
If you're worried about groups facing genocidal threats in the Middle East, you might want to take a look at Syria. The Christians and the Alawites there face true existential threats.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...under the UN definition, whatever the supposed justification.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They are subjected to bigotry and attacks because of their religion, which is despicable. But saying they are being subjected to genocide is just over the top.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)to a number of people who have serious questions about your comments.
FarrenH
(768 posts)In ordinary colloquial English, "genocide" connotes deliberately killing a very large proportion of a particular group, with the primary intention of substantially reducing the numbers of that group or eliminating them. In the international convention on the crime of genocide, no proportion is described (it doesn't specify whether it means 0.1% or 100%), but a significant number is connoted by most jurists from the requirement that it is a deliberate attempt to "destroy, in whole or part" the group.
Since attacks against a group could be intended to intimidate, not destroy a group. The ICJ will not hear cases involving one or two people dying and most international jurists interpret the law to mean that such actions be clearly deliberate, systematic and intended to destroy the group, which aligns with the colloquial meaning.
A hate crime against one member of a group in a population of millions is not genocide. Scattered hate crimes against tens of members of a group in a population of millions is not genocide. Its idiotic to take someone who is simply questioning your abuse of the English language to task because you don't understand what the words you're using mean.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)I would argue with you but see post # 18.
FarrenH
(768 posts)that does not allege genocide. So not quite sure what to make of your reply
EgyptianDentist
(48 posts)You cant be more ignorant about the subject.
First I dont need to describe the sadness in my heart.
Second, I am shocked-AGAIN- to find those ignorant comments in DU regarding the situation in Egypt, the violence against Christians runs deep in the political Islam ideology, they see them as a great obstacle to their dream world where non-Muslims don't have rights, aren't citizens. I have worked with Islamist doctors who CONTINUOUSLY target Christians in their daily conversations, they only stop when someone like me "another Muslim" tell them to stop!
And that's the whole point of targeting Christians, Islamists don't think Christians have the right to have a political view or to criticize any act! As a Muslim I might be allowed to have that right to an extent, but in their minds the Islamists are mad as hell Christians were a part of revolting against Brotherhoods!
The Islamists in general are mad each time someone laughs, someone is having a wedding, or any act of normal happy life, cause in their sick minds we don't have the right to treat them as criminals, which they actually are, and we should be crying they are in jails instead of going on with our lives. They are so damn angry at the Egyptian society for finishing their Islmaist empire after only one year (We joke here by saying it was the shortest empire in the history haha)
For f@cking 80 years except during Nasser times, we have made compromises with terrorists -also known as Islamists- We have let them own many stuff, we have let them own Islam interpretation, we have given them all power over mosques, we have given them Egyptian villages and streets, we have given them the right to target Christians, Soldiers, tourists without a definite punishment.. And each time they stab us in our backs.. We have simply given them rights they don't deserve, when in fact they are just criminals who think their acts are acceptable cause they are "God people" and we are infidels who should be thankful to have them guide us.. Hell NO, We aint gonna be fooled again nor we gonna let them own us again..
No one cries when a criminal goes to jail and Never in history a group of criminals were applauded for being terrorists as Islamists! We don't care any more, we cry when Islamists kill innocent soldiers and citizens, but we dont care what happens to Islamists and thats why they are VERY angry. We have had enough! 80 years of extremism and terrorism, 80 years of hijacking all religion interpretation and giving us the fame of being terrorists. We simply despise them, life is full of awful people and we are no angels, but to meet them and discover they are the worst of all people you have ever met, is one of the weirdest experiments you can feel. It sometimes makes me hate the whole world. In their sick minds they actually think they have the right to spit on my face (literally) and I don't have the right to despise them for that!! They have the right to kill Soldiers and Christians, to plot and do terrorist attacks, but the country dont have the right to put them on jails.
I have heard lots of stories about that sh!t that was called peaceful brotherhood sit-in, but I LIVE in the same city they tried to conquer with their so called sit-in, they blocked whole streets we use, they cooked in a public school and had showers in it, they wouldn't even allow people to enter their homes without passing through their security, they just decided to conquer our city, which is btw famous for being anti-brotherhood, and that was going on for more than godd@mn 40 days! each day they pick up their loud mikes to tell us how infidels we are for not supporting their morsi, how we should be killed for removing him from power, IT WAS US the people of the city who argued forces to remove the so called sit-in! After only seconds of starting to remove the sit-in, 5 soldiers were killed at the "sit-in" gates, so if they would have continued with the same rate more than 1000 soldiers would have been killed! The forces tried to remove the sit-in without much force but they HAD TO use force after a while. There was simply no other option. I am 100% sure of that, cause I was in hospital and they declared emergency so early, they shut down the dentistry clinic and I was out in the middle of Cairo trying to find a way home (a terrible mistake), I went to Abbasia, close from the sit in, and we found ourselves a group of youths, sad about the soldiers that were killed, so we decided to go to the nearest street to the sit-in and offer our help, when we went the police have already made gates, they were sad about their colleges and ordered us firmly to go back homes as the situation was dangerous and soldiers were killed, I discovered I cant go home and I have to go to relatives, I went through an awful journey of witnessing what the awful brotherhoods were trying to do in Cairo, they were trying to set Cairo on fire, they went to target police stations and churches at first, I had to go from street to street as they were setting fires on streets to block roads, it wasn't until good people picked me up and I went back home trying to figure out why brotherhoods are trying to set Cairo on fire for the third time, to find out they were doing more awful acts outside Cairo especially towards Christians in the Egyptian south, they were targeting soldiers in Sinai. In the next few days the Islamists from the whole world declared war on Egypt. So we have declared the final war on them, enough is enough, how many betrays and atrocities can a group of people withstand? How many years? We have had 80. If the world feels for them that much they should take them, take the terrorists you defend and leave us alone to rebuild our country with REALLLLLLLLLLLL freedom and democracy, I am no longer the naive girl who thinks freedom means freedom of terrorists to terrorize us.
It is also absent from foreign sites, the threats brotherhoods and their "friends" were saying before June 30 revolution. In June 26 morsi had a weird gather of terrorists in the stadium and he kept listening to them saying through all Egyptian TV stations they are gonna "CRUSH" the infidels that were to go to streets in June 30 to ask for his resignation, by this point there was no ONE Egyptian institution with even 10% acceptance towards brotherhoods and morsi, the whole country was revolting against him, most of the people, the army, the judiciary, the police, the media, all were combined against him. The threats of the terrorists were getting more and more alarming that the army had to centralize on Cairo streets on June 28 to prevent killing of people, and on June 30 the people went on streets in waves, from this day everyone knew morsi was finished, well except morsi who talked about his "legitimacy" in his final words threatening us that the only way he would resign is over his own blood! And he kept talking about his blood, making indirect threats about terrorists attacks on soldiers and young boys and girls. The head of the army finally declared him gone on July 3 and celebrations stormed Egypt UGH Thank God we got rid of those people before they conquer our country forever..
The last point I would like to say, is the continuous defamation of June 30 and our army, I felt there was an insist not to show Egyptians revolting against terrorists, I felt we have to be shown terrorists supporters forever, in June 30 people from all generations and backgrounds revolted against political Islam and stormed Egyptians streets, this is the reality. The army defended Egypt and Egyptians from terrorists.
The whole terrorists and their supporters insist on forcing us to accept terrorism as a political and a religious view, there are leaders and countries in this world that think we are already poor and underdeveloped, so we deserve to be ruled by terrorists who don't target westerns for political reasons.. Guess what, yes we are poor and underdeveloped but even that don't make us willing to be ruled by this awful ideology and those scums.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)jessie04
(1,528 posts)nt
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)The Moslem Brotherhood has been around for 80 years. It held power for one.
The people who ran Egypt for the past few decades are the military. They ran it before the departure of Mubarek. They ran it while Morsi was the weak president. And they run it now.
And the Moslem Brotherhood were explicitly not "terrorists." They forsook violence and opted for the democratic path in recent decades.
It doesn't help to conflate the MB with the Salafist Islamic radicals. They are not the same.
But other than that...
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)About the only stories we see about the Copts are in relation to the violence against them. There have been some encouraging stories of Muslim men protecting Copt churches during services, though.
I saw this thread when it was posted and was too sickened to reply. Still can't figure out how anyone can justify such a thing in their minds, no matter what their spiritual beliefs, or religious knowledge.
jessie04
(1,528 posts)"Still can't figure out how anyone can justify such a thing in their minds, no matter what their spiritual beliefs, or religious knowledge."
me either.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)attention. Wishing your cause success.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)We tend to see black/white with no grey in many international matters.
I agree - this would make for a great new thread. Please consider reposting in its entirety in General Discussion so more see it.
rollin74
(1,987 posts)thank you for sharing your experience and your opinion on the matter
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Always nice in a thread to have someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And it seems to conflate the Moslem Brotherhood with the Salafist Islamic radicals. Morsi was a "terrorist"? Really? He and his party followed the democratic path to power. They governed poorly, but that doesn't make them "terrorists." And then they were gunned down in the streets by the hundreds by your beloved military.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I was at a drug policy conference in Denver and just happened to run into him.
He is an American married to an Egyptian and has lived in Cairo for 34 years.
He of course does not like the Muslim Brotherhood, but he is even more appalled by the murderous repression against them. He said when he protested to his "liberal" Egyptian friends, their response was along the line of "they should kill more of those curs." He was quite disgusted with that attitude.
He also said that unrest has moved away from Tahrir and now permeates the city. He said he is afraid, not just of political violence but also of street crime, like never before. He said that the AP reporters and photographers based in Cairo have sent their families home and that AP is looking to relocate its Middle East bureau because of the uncertain situation. But where are you going to go? Beirut? Baghdad? Damascus?
And speaking of attacks on the Copts, he said it is never clear who is actually doing them and that there is large suspicion that some of the attacks are being done by military provocateurs to blame on the Islamists.
Egyptian dentists aren't the only ones allowed to have an opinion. I thought I would share this guy's.
He was also quite happy to talk to me. He said most Americans don't have a clue or give a shit about Egypt, and he called our mass media coverage of Egypt cartoonish.