Kiev protests: outrage as police descend on barricades with chainsaws

[BelgianMadCow]

Last edited Wed Dec 11, 2013, 08:33 AM - Edit history (2)

Source: The Guardian

Thousands of riot police carried out a co-ordinated attack on barricades in Kiev during the dead of night on Wednesday – a determined and unexpected crackdown on protesters who have occupied the centre of Ukraine's capital for the past fortnight.

As temperatures fell to -13C during the coldest night of the winter to date, columns of riot police closed in on Independence Square, hub of the protests that erupted after President Viktor Yanukovych pulled out of an association pact with the EU that had been due for signing at a summit in Vilnius last month. Shortly after 1am battalions of police approached the vast square from all sides and began to dismantle the makeshift barricades that have been erected in recent days.

Several police officers confirmed they had been given orders to clear barricades from the boundaries of the square but not remove the tent camp that has sprung up inside the space.
...
The US secretary of state, John Kerry, released a strongly worded statement on the events of the night: "The United States expresses its disgust with the decision of Ukrainian authorities to meet the peaceful protest in Kiev's Maidan Square with riot police, bulldozers and batons, rather than with respect for democratic rights and human dignity. This response is neither acceptable nor does it befit a democracy."

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/kiev-protests-police-barricades-chainsaws

---

Euhm, Mr Kerry?

Riot police? Batons? Clearing camps? Suffering from memory loss?

US foreign policy is the spreading of democracy and freedom. Except when it's inconvenient, then it's supporting obedient dictators. A point made at great length in Naom Chomsky's "Failed states".

Should the Ukranian people choose the US/EU side or Russia's? I don't know, I just wish them luck in whatever they decide, hope they primarily choose their own side, and have much respect for camping out at -13°C.

On edit: the comments at the Guardian are very interesting. This is a complex situation, and whilst I support the right to protest anywhere and by anyone, it may well be that this is not a widely supported movement, but rather a show of force by rightwing ultranationalists. Several agenda's at play, and the people mangled in between. Beware of propaganda.

2nd edit: just saw footage on noon news here. State department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland visited the protesters and handed out food. This after Catherine Ashton of the EU had also mingled with the protesters earlier.

[SamKnause]

1. Really ??????????????

I am surprised Kerry didn't burst into flames.

The hypocrisy is sickening !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[idwiyo]

2. OWS. Forgot about it Mr Kerry? The hypocrisy is sickening.

[adirondacker]

14. He said Democracy, not Plutocracy. nt

[Sand Wind]

3. Opinion polls in Ukraine show popular support for integrating with EU.

Russian propaganda is really effective, but even...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024086774

Opinion polls in Ukraine consistently show broad & growing popular support for integrating with EU.


A poll conducted October 2-15 by GfK Ukraine showed three times as many Ukrainians favoring the association agreement with the European Union as supporting the Russian-led Customs Union:

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58 percent of Ukrainians supporting the country’s entry into the European Union.


The opinion poll numbers break down in thought-provoking ways. In the DW Trend poll, 50 percent of Ukrainians in the east and south—regions where the populations tend to be more sympathetic to Russia—support joining the European Union.

A third poll, conducted by The Kyiv International Institute of Sociology in mid-September, showed Ukrainians favoring the European Union over the Customs Union by 41 percent to 35 percent. But the poll provided a very interesting demographic breakdown: the younger the voter, the greater gap between support for the European Union and support for the customs union.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/11/18-viktor-yanukovych-losing-europe-ukrainian-public-pifer-thoburn

More intimidation from Russia to come.

[pampango]

4. The current president campaigned in 2010 on a pro-EU integration platform.

His apparent reversal of that campaign promise is what has motivated the demonstrators. If he had been elected on an anti-EU, pro-Russia platform, his current withdrawal from the visa and trade deal withe the EU would not be a surprise.

Regarding the European Union (EU) Yanukovych wants to create a free trade zone and visa-free travel between Ukraine and the EU countries. Once "Ukraine achieves those standards that currently exist in Europe", then the country should consider joining the EU. "But today this is an absolutely motivating, stimulating process we must aspire to", he stated in January 2010. In May 2011 Yanukovych stated that he will strive for Ukraine to join the EU. According to Yanukovych Ukrainian relations with "the West" are "a guide in both social and technical standards that we should strive for in creating a European life level in Ukraine". Yanukovych believes that the European integration of Ukraine is not an end in itself, but a way of implementation of the European standards in the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Political_positions

[dipsydoodle]

5. "apparent reversal"

Its not quite that. He's holding out for more funds from the EU who at the point he rejected the offer were offering a billion Euros to help tide them over. Ukraine need considerably more than that to cross balance projected lost exports elsewhere - they also need to make a payment of $10 billion next year for bond/interest repayment. On other sources of possible funds the IMF have imposed very stiff conditions for funds to ensure Ukraine would actually be able to repay loans.

With regard the EU visas - the ones referred to are Schengen visas which would provide access to the Schengen group only. The Schengen agreement itself is currently under revision the background being Italy's antics when they issued them to north Africans in the full knowledge they would leave Italy almost immediately to go to France.

[pampango]

7. To the protesters it looks like an "apparent reversal". Perhaps the reality is more nuanced.

Many of us are wary when a president seemingly concedes a liberal policy in negotiations because he is seeking a 'better deal'. Protesters may believe that his 'better deal' words are just words and that he is not really sincere in pursuing closer integration with Europe. And some of them may want to make sure that he is reminded of his campaign promise as he goes about these negotiations.

I realize that the visa negotiations apply to Schengen countries. Since they number 26 European countries, I think Ukrainians would be satisfied with that. The UK and Ireland are the only European countries that do not belong.

The Schengen Area is a group of 26 European countries that have abolished passport and immigration controls at their common borders. It functions as a single country for international travel purposes, with a common visa policy.

Twenty-two of the European Union (EU) member states and the four European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member states participate in the Schengen Area. Of the six EU members that do not form part of the Schengen Area, four– Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania – are legally obliged to join the area, while the other two – Ireland and the United Kingdom – maintain opt-outs. Four non-members of the EU, but members of EFTA – Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland – participate in the Schengen Area while three European microstates – Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican – can be considered as de facto parts of the Schengen Area as they do not have border controls with the Schengen countries that surround them. The area currently covers a population of over 400 million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

[dipsydoodle]

9. I'm aware of what "Schengen" represents

including the fact the visa provides right of travel only for up to 3 months outside of a member state - thereafter subject to the normal rules in respect of taking up residence in another country.

I do wonder if some Ukrainians think a Schengen visa provides right to work and healthcare etc as per actual EU member states. It doesn't.

[Lasher]

10. Why is it that so many north Africans want to go to France in particular?

I guess it's partly because they speak French but surely it can't be that simple.

[dipsydoodle]

13. List of French speaking countries here

one of which isn't Tunisia which caused the issue between France and Italy in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_French_is_an_official_language

[Lasher]

21. That's a list of official languages, not an indication of how many north Africans speak French.

Regardless of official language, most north Africans (including Tunisians) actually do speak French.

But that wasn't what I was wondering. Since you don't seem to know why so many north Africans want to go to France, I'll just go ahead and research that on my own. Thanks all the same for the reply.

[dipsydoodle]

24. My understanding at the time

in the case of Tunisians was to join other relatives / friends there. Can't speak for Somalis whoever.

[pampango]

12. It is possible that these protests are based on a misunderstanding of what a Schengen visa is.

Of course, it is also possible that the protesters understand these visas, limited as they are, as a step in the direction of eventual integration with Europe. Absent evidence to the contrary I would not speculate that the massive numbers who care enough to protest in the snow and cold, are doing so under the misunderstanding that a Schengen visa give one the same rights as citizens of EU countries have.

[dipsydoodle]

15. Integration with Europe is now conditional in joining the Euro aside from other issues.

Under other issues is the fact that acceptance is required by ALL member states : not just a majority. In turn ability to join the Euro is a partly a function of Debt : GDP ratio. That was what Greece spoofed but Ukraine will be unable to do that.

Their current path will likely lower their GDP further due to reduced exports and with regard to debt they are already deeply in the mire. Even the IMF won't help them at present :

UPDATE 2-IMF renews pressure on Ukraine to raise domestic gas prices, reform economy.

KIEV, Oct 31 (Reuters) - The International Monetary Fund urged Ukraine on Thursday to raise gas prices for domestic consumers and introduce a flexible exchange rate for the hryvnia currency - both unpopular steps previously rejected by the Kiev government.

IMF mission leader Nikolay Gueorguiev laid out the Fund's view at the end of a 12-day visit to Ukraine, saying the ex-Soviet republic required a "set of comprehensive and credible reforms" to stabilise the economy and revive growth.

"Ukraine's significant external financing needs remain a key vulnerability," Gueorguiev said in a statement, referring to foreign debt repayments looming for gas deliveries from Russia and for servicing loans and credits, including to the Fund itself.

He zeroed in on the loss-making energy sector and called again for an end to the unprofitable practice of Soviet-era subsidies in which state-run oil and gas company Naftogaz sells gas to households and other domestic consumers at prices way below the level at which it buys from Russia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/31/ukraine-imf-idUSL5N0IL1TI20131031

As I've pointed before their gas deal with Russia re. prices and minimum volume was agreed by Yulia Tymoshenko : not Viktor Yanukovich. That's part of the reason she's in prison.

[pampango]

17. It may be unrealistic for Ukrainians to want to join the EU one day. The numbers may say that it is

not going to happen, at least anytime in the foreseeable future. That does not seem to lessen their desire to be "European" rather than more closely associated with Russia.

There were undoubtedly many skeptics that Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia would be invited to join the EU since they were poor countries with weak economies on the edge of Europe. If Ukrainians really want to join the EU and, if the EU decides that Ukraine is really a part of Europe, I would imagine that negotiations would one day commence on Ukraine joining. That is a lot of if's and will be far in the future if ever, but I am not aware of a European country which wanted to join the EU and the EU refused to negotiate with them.

[dipsydoodle]

6. Ukraine Protests: Police Pull Back From Camp

Ukrainian police have pulled back after an overnight confrontation in which they attempted to remove barricades and tents from a protest camp.

Buses carrying police drove away from Kiev's Independence Square early Wednesday to cheers from protesters.

Another group of officers that had been stationed outside the Kiev city hall building, which has been occupied by protesters for weeks, also left.

Arseny Yatsenyuk, a top opposition leader who has called for millions to come out in protest, said: "This is a great victory."

Protesters have been gathering around the clock to demand the resignation of the government in a crisis that threatens the leadership of President Viktor Yanukovych.

http://news.sky.com/story/1180600/ukraine-protests-police-pull-back-from-camp

As you said "Several agenda's at play here"

[another_liberal]

8. That temperature equals 9 degrees fahrenheit.

The low tonight in Kiev will be a balmy 25 degrees fahrenheit.

[Coyotl]

11. Police leave protesters’ camp in Kiev

Police leave protesters’ camp in Kiev
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraines-president-budges-but-not-much-as-political-standoff-continues/2013/12/10/4c92464e-61d7-11e3-a7b4-4a75ebc432ab_story.html

Will Englund, Updated: Wednesday, December 11, 6:16 AM

KIEV, Ukraine — After a huge show of force overnight down the streets that form the edges of Independence Square, Ukrainian riot police withdrew Wednesday morning, leaving the long-running protest intact and the square still in the hands of exhausted but exhilarated demonstrators.

The police action drew defiant denunciations from opposition politicians and sharp criticism from European officials and Secretary of State John F. Kerry. ......

...............

After the police withdrew, protesters immediately reoccupied the streets that had been cleared. Many expect the police to come back as darkness falls, but for the moment the action appeared to stir a great deal of emotion while seemingly accomplishing little.

The action came hours after foreign envoys and three former presidents urged a peaceful solution to the dispute. .......

[starroute]

16. The protesters are already rebuilding the barricades

Livestreamer Tim Pool posted this picture a couple of hours ago:

[dipsydoodle]

18. Ukrainian leader offers talks, protesters say no.

Opposition leaders in Ukraine rejected President Viktor Yanukovych's offer of talks Wednesday, saying they will not sit down with him until he fires his government and releases all arrested demonstrators.

That stance reflected their growing confidence after the abrupt withdrawal of riot police from parts of Ukraine's capital early Wednesday raised protesters' hopes that weeks of demonstrations have eroded police support for Yanukovych and his government.

Yanukovych issued an invitation late in the day to political, religious and civil figures to join a national dialogue. But it gave no details about a proposed date for the talks - and could have been merely an attempt to buy time and mollify Western officials.

The opposition reaction was scathing.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PROTESTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-12-11-14-28-55

[BelgianMadCow]

19. thanks for keeping the thread updated, dipsydoodle!

[dipsydoodle]

20. No problem :)

Have you got fog where you are ?

[BelgianMadCow]

22. Nope, no fog, crystal blue skies (well crystal dark, but you get the point)

but had terrible fog last week - and a major pile-up in it. Well, not me personally, but 150 cars.

I take it you DO have fog

[dipsydoodle]

23. Yep

Fog all day and current temp 3c.

[pampango]

25. Ukrainian riot police pull out of main Kiev square

Ukrainian riot police withdrew from Maidan Square in Kiev on Wednesday, following a failed overnight move to storm City Hall and remove protesters by force.

It was the authorities’ biggest attempt yet to dislodge the movement after weeks of protests. Anger has mounted against President Viktor Yanukovich over his decision to scrap an EU trade deal in favour of closer ties with Russia.

With EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and U.S. assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland in Kiev, there were signs that the authorities were reluctant to use excessive force.

Euronews correspondent Maria Korenyuk reporting from outside Kiev’s City Council said: “Although yesterday Ukrainian authorities declared their will to resolve the conflict peacefully, the events of recent days have demonstrated the opposite. The riot police removed almost all the barricades in the centre of Kiev and used force against protesters again.”

http://www.euronews.com/2013/12/11/ukrainian-riot-police-pull-out-of-main-kiev-square/

[BelgianMadCow]

26. From the other side:"'Muddling and meddling'? US, EU politicians plunge deeper into Kiev protests"

Pro-EU protests in Kiev have been marked by western politicians’ regular visits to the protesters’ camp, and their emotional condemnations of Ukraine’s authorities. This is seen by some analysts as unprecedented meddling in a country’s internal affairs.

US Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, handed out snacks on Wednesday to protesters on Kiev’s Independence Square (or ‘Maidan’ as it’s nicknamed), making those who witnessed the scene wonder if a reciprocal gesture would be imaginable during something like an Occupy Wall Street protest in New York.
...
Pepe Escobar, an investigative foreign affairs journalist, believes if the opposition went out on the streets with similar calls in any other western country, participants of such a rally “would be branded as a mob and dispersed by all means”.

“Can you imagine that this was happening in Washington? Like it happened during Occupy Wall Street. They were evicted with force from Zuccotti Square in New York. If this was happening in London? Do you remember the [latest] student demonstrations in London? The repression was really hard core,” Escobar told RT.

From RT.

[Comrade Grumpy]

27. Yes. This.