Pope says he is not a Marxist, but defends criticism of capitalism

[Redfairen]

Source: The Guardian

Pope Francis has rejected accusations from rightwing Americans that his teaching is Marxist, defending his criticisms of the capitalist system and urging more attention be given to the poor in a wide-ranging interview.

In remarks to the Italian daily La Stampa, the Argentinian pontiff said that the views he had espoused in his first apostolic exhortation last month – which the rightwing US radio host Rush Limbaugh attacked as "dramatically, embarrassingly, puzzlingly wrong" – were simply those of the church's social doctrine. Limbaugh described the pope's church reforms as "pure Marxism".

"The ideology of Marxism is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don't feel offended," Francis was quoted as saying.

Defending his criticism of the "trickle-down" theory of economics, he added: "There was the promise that once the glass had become full it would overflow and the poor would benefit. But what happens is that when it's full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing ever comes out for the poor ... I repeat: I did not talk as a specialist but according to the social doctrine of the church. And this does not mean being a Marxist."


Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/pope-francis-defends-criticism-of-capitalism-not-marxist

[FreakinDJ]

1. He articulated that Very Well - I like this guy

[tomg]

2. This is one of the better

analogies of trickle down: "There was the promise that once the glass had become full it would overflow and the poor would benefit. But what happens is that when it's full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing ever comes out for the poor ... "

[BootinUp]

4. Yes

He is a good communicator, obviously intelligent.

[jsr]

5. +1.

[pangaia]

6. You beat me to it.

THAT phrase is priceless... !!!

[daleo]

8. It's a great image.

[Strelnikov_]

15. Agree n/t

[Vietnameravet]

3. Can you believe it the conservative NY Post

says Francis was not talking about them but the sins of the Obama administration!


"He (Francis) continues, the church should "not become a useless structure out of touch with people or a self-absorbed group made up of a chosen few."

(snip)
Conservatives have rightly criticized a lack of transparency and accountability at the White House, and a sense that an aloof President Obama and an elitist Democratic Party are out of touch with voters.


Snip)

"While Pope Francis does criticize "trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world," the pontiff wasn't necessarily condemning free market economics. Instead, he was condemning the "sacrilized" belief that free markets alone will solve social injustices the world over.

Well, sure. In certain countries, government corruption, sectarian violence and human rights abuses require far more than a free market economic makeover.."


How about that "certain countries" line?? ..They are sure wasnt talking about the right wing in the US ..was he??

The entire article reminds me of the Jesus quote about "seeing the speck in your brothers eye but unable to see the stone in your own"..


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/pope-francis-conservative-article-1.1544344#ixzz2nYwVosPQ

[Rozlee]

9. Well, holding a mirror up to themselves wasn't really an option.

Deflection is the rule of the day when a greatly admired figure attacks you and your sacredly held beliefs. With a fourth of the US population identifying themselves as Catholic and a seventh of the world doing so, you can't attack the guy directly. All you can do is try to steal his message. Kind of how they're trying to claim now that conservatives marched with MLK, who they claim was a conservative himself, and that conservatives freed the slaves and passed the Civil Rights Act.

[bulloney]

7. The right will typically throw the "Marxist", "socialist", or whatever label to anyone

who dares criticize RW economic dogma, thinking it will shame that person out of the room.

The fact they're doing it to someone with the status of Pope is hilarious. These same people will constantly tell you how "Christian" they are and now they find themselves rebutting the head of one of the largest Christian religions in the world.

As an example of my opening sentence, I remember speaking on a panel discussion with the executive VP of a state Farm Bureau. For anyone who doesn't know the history of the Farm Bureau, it was founded by John Birchers with the support of the Chamber of Commerce and Lackawanna Railroad. Farmers historically have had their biggest struggles against railroads and big business (i.e. chamber of commerce). Arguably, the Farm Bureau is one of the hardest right-wing organizations of any type in the U.S. Their county annual meetings will address the typical guns-gays-gynecology issues in their resolutions to distract their members away from what the organization is really doing, while the state and national organizations lobby a big business agenda.

Anyway, I spoke against trickle down economics as they apply to farm policy. The Farm Bureau stooge immediately called me a "socialist". To which I read outcomes of a poll from a Farm Bureau publication, showing that their members supported the policies I had advocated in my presentation. I looked at the Farm Bureau rep and asked him if the Farm Bureau will heed the responses from their grass-roots members, or if this was another example of Farm Bureau "top-down" policy where their members say one thing and the organization's chiefs do another. It shut him up.

[SoapBox]

12. Don't forget Nazi.

And then there is always the good-old-reliable,

Benghazi!

[paleotn]

14. Most of the right...

...particularly their talking heads can't even accurately define marxist or socialist. It's just school yard name calling, but dolts with barely a handful of brain cells to rub together.

[Populist_Prole]

21. They're so ignorant arent they?

They'll throw around terms like "communist", "socialist", "fascist", and being so ignorant of what the terms actually mean they use them interchangeably as though randomly picked from their kit bag of schoolyard type taunts.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

33. Some years ago, a conservative I know

Said that Obama was a Marxist, a socialist, a fascist and an anarchist. Apparently simultaneously.

I responded that, leaving aside the clear fact that Obama is none of these, three of the four are mutually exclusive and he clearly did not know what he was talking about.

[happyslug]

23. Farm Bureau was founded in 1911, John Birch Society in the 1958

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Farm_Bureau_Federation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

Thus John Birchers could NOT have founded the Farm Bureau. Now many of the same people who wanted the Farm Bureau (To offset the Grange, which was founded in 1867 and was and is a much more progressive organization).

http://www.nationalgrange.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Grange_of_the_Order_of_Patrons_of_Husbandry

Just a comment that right wingers will attack your statement based on the "Error" of saying "For anyone who doesn't know the history of the Farm Bureau, it was founded by John Birchers...."

I know people who founded both, were right wingers, but two different time periods. Don't give the right wing an easy attack.

[paleotn]

10. To paraphrase Pope Francis...

Mr. Limbaugh, if you've got a problem with it, than take it up with God. Right on, Pope Francis! Did I just type that?? That's interesting, coming from an ex-protestant evangelical, who's now agnostic.

[MyNameGoesHere]

11. Well the wingbats I am accustomed to

have called him a Stalinist. As for his ignorance on Marxism being wrong, well I guess presiding over a 15 billion dollar, and 17% value of a countries stock market will do that to you. Hard to run away from capitalism when you can buy several countries.

[SoapBox]

13. Capitalism...

I've got a "finger" that shows how I feel about that.

[Major Nikon]

16. People who think this pope's position is so radically different should look to what has been done

The Catholic church has been critical of capitalism for my entire life. Each and every pope of my lifetime has criticized capitalism at one time or another. However, it's important to recognize what the Catholic church says, and what it does. The Catholic church has a serious image problem right now. It should come as no surprise that the pope has a vested interest in providing populist lip service. The celebrations shouldn't start to commence until they start walking the walk. Catholic catechism still condemns Marxism and centralized economic planning. When the church changes its dogma and starts a widespread effort to purge people from leadership positions who are categorically against liberation theology, then there will be some cause to celebrate. Until then it's just lip service and we should remember the Catholic church has almost 2,000 years of practice in controlling its image rather than those who are behind the curtain working the levers.

[cantbeserious]

17. Kick And Recommend

eom

[Vashta Nerada]

18. Pope Francis shares the same views on capitalism as Ratz did.

C'mon people.

[pnwmom]

28. There is a huge difference though.

Pope Francis is giving economic issues top PRIORITY. To Ratzinger, nothing really mattered but the social issues.

[Vashta Nerada]

29. Really?

Ratz wrote a book on anti-capitalism:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Crisis-Global-Capitalism-Encyclical-ebook/dp/B0068M97EE

Ratz spoke out against capitalism:
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/01/01-4

[Kingofalldems]

19. Bill Donohue demanding impeachment.

[mdbl]

20. The snakes show their tongues and true colors

Mush Limpballs is a big fat do-nothing liar. He has to attack the pope to alleviate the guilt he will feel deep down for being such a resource hogging pig and his worship of others that do the same.

[mathematic]

22. Pope's problem with marxism is the same as his problem with capitalism

Economic power opposes religious power. He criticized economic power in general in his first statement but it was so dressed up as a criticism against capitalism few people noticed. Here he talks about the "social doctrine" of the church. The social doctrine of the church is simply that the church is the ultimate authority of the social good and economics, government, and everything else takes a backseat.

There is nothing new about any of this. The church has been using breadline conversions for thousands of years.

[Paladin]

24. Since when does the Pope need to justify things to Limbaugh?

I'm sure Bill Donahue of the Catholic League will be outraged---if he can make time for it, in between ravings about Bill Maher.....

[Beacool]

25. Criticism of the Pope will start in 3...2...1....

I assume that if he were a US citizen he wouldn't have voted for Reagan.

"There was the promise that once the glass had become full it would overflow and the poor would benefit. But what happens is that when it's full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing ever comes out for the poor..."

Bravo, well said!!!

[burnsei sensei]

26. Sharp, sharp, sharp.

nt

[rocktivity]

27. The problem ISN'T capitalism

The problem is UNREGULATED capitalism.


rocktivity

[Bucky]

31. It's not even just the unregulated thing

Unregulated business is the all-theory fantasy of economic libertarians--if only the government would just leave us all alone. The reality is that government will inevitably get dragged into the business world. People with money will use that money to gain more money. It denies human nature to think anyone who's economically successful would act otherwise.

What the wealthy do is use the law and government contacts to position themselves to accelerate their accumulation of wealth and cooperate among themselves to find other new schemes to bulge out their bank accounts. The market is regulated by a few in a way to insure a disproportionate share of capital growth in society ends up in their purses. This is regulation by and for the few against the interests of the many. It's like helping the tiger defeat the lamb. The tiger doesn't need the help.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

34. I keep saying that libertarianism requires ignorance of history, politics and economics

For example, anyone who knows what laissez-faire capitalism did to the American workers in the 19th century would reject the idea that businesses should be unregulated. Certainly anyone who gave a damn about others would.

Libertarians call for expanded freedom for the individual. In fact, their policies would lead to corporatism, which would severely restrict individual freedom. They are either too ignorant to understand this, too stupid to see it or too dishonest to admit it.

[Bucky]

30. When you think about this, it's kind of amazing that Christ's vicar had to re-explain himself

The guy that proports to be the official representative of Jesus "rich-guy-through-the-needle's-eye" Christ shouldn't have to fend off attacks of being a communist when all he said was that poor have needs and aren't being treated right. Crazier still that the false-witness bearers against the Pope are the loudest people in our society when it comes to wrapping themselves in the cloak of Christianity

[rpannier]

32. He must feel he has to try and explain what he meant to the incredibly stupid and dull

of the world

Though I think commissioning a children's book author to explain it mught make it easier for them to understand

See Jamie. Jamie is a banker. Jamie has lots and lots and lots of money.
Jamie lies and steals from the poor to make himself richer
Jamie is a douche-bag

[Doctor_J]

35. Even the Pope answers to Limpballs and Fox "News"

I really hope we get to the business of taking care of these tumors before I go toes up.