Teenage German tourist raped on Indian train

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Source: The Local (Germany)

Published: 15 Jan 2014 16:28 GMT+01:00
Updated: 15 Jan 2014 16:28 GMT+01:00

A German charity worker was allegedly raped while sleeping on a train in southern India on Friday – the second European to report a rape in the country within a week.

The teenager was attacked while asleep on a train travelling from Mangalore in western India to Chennai on the east coast, where she was heading to volunteer with a charity.

Police said she was reportedly too scared to shout for help and alert passengers in her carriage, Indian news site NDTV said.

Read more: http://www.thelocal.de/20140115/german-tourist-18-raped-on-indian-train

[reflection]

1. My God.

Why would any female tourist go to, or through, India? At this point you've got to assume you WILL be raped. The frequency is astounding.

[Cane4Dems]

2. my parents are from India

....and we were just talking about this. My mom was even saying that she doesn't want my sister to ever go to india even for a family vacation because it seems like just too big of a risk to take

[JI7]

22. when we visited india a few years ago before the attention to rape in the country

my family members were more worried about me going off on my own there than anywhere in the US. and i around my late 20s so not very young either. some years before we went to england and i was younger and they were not that worried then either. same when we went to canada just a few years ago.

we went to singapore before india and they had no worries about me going off alone, even when it got dark.

but in india they were always worried.

i went with my parents and brother and we had been in the US for decades . but even relatives and friends who live in india did not think it was so safe .

[kestrel91316]

53. My niece married into a family from India (now in FL) and last year when she

visited there to rendezvous with her husband (who had gone on business), she had a chaperone - her MIL, who knew how to stay safe there.

My sister and BIL vacationed in India this past fall and they of course stayed safe, but were ALWAYS together and had local guides/drivers all the time.

I would never go to ANY Third World country by myself, as a woman.

[uppityperson]

5. NY City had 1000+ rapes reported in 2011.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-New-York-New-York.html

Not meaning to downplay any of this, but "you've got to assume you WILL be raped" is hyperbole and doesn't help.

[get the red out]

14. What does help?

Trying not to notice?

[uppityperson]

18. Not at all. Simply pointing out that ""will get raped" if you travel to India is inaccurate and

that NYC has a lot of rapes but I don't hear "you WILL get raped if you visit nyc".

[get the red out]

19. If you report it in NYC

You will probably not get set on fire, you will probably be taken seriously by the police.

I would enjoy a trip to NYC, India, NO WAY!

[uppityperson]

21. "you will probably be taken seriously by the police" if you report a rape in NYC? It all depends.

and that is wrong. To not be taken seriously no matter where you are is wrong. Having been there myself and with friends.

I have minimal interest in seeing NYC but India? How interesting.

[get the red out]

23. Good luck

Since it's so "safe" over there.

Evil fucking place.

[uppityperson]

25. Calling a country an "evil fucking place" due to the actions of some assholes there? My word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taj_Mahal_2012.jpg

[get the red out]

26. No, it was MY WORD

And there's more to the story, like their misogyny that has them with these roving bands of nasty men to begin with, wanting to sex select for boys. Hateful culture where women are concerned.

And what about the dowry killings, that happen though officially illegal? Or girls getting acid thrown in their faces over a dowry? How great and wonderful is that practice?

I don't buy into the bullshit that says I have to kiss any culture's ass that isn't first world no matter what happens there, and I won't. Kiss all the woman hating ass you desire, I hope it tastes good.

[uppityperson]

27. I am not asking you to "kiss any cultures ass" but to realize there are good people there, beautiful

places, and good people. That it is not an "evil fucking place". There are evil people, to be sure and societal practices that are not fair. But "evil fucking place"?

ETA, that is like saying Kentucky is an "evil fucking place" because of the actions of some of the people there. I would never say that as Kentucky has some beautiful places and really decent people.

And "my word" is used to express astonishment or surprise.

[get the red out]

30. Acid in one's face is just "not fair"

No, that's evil. Not fair is getting a parking ticket you don't deserve. A whole culture that seems to be set up to harm women is rotten to the core.

I used to have appreciation for India, God knows I love their food. But I have come to really think horribly of the place after learning of the poor young women being killed and tortured over dowries, the terrible rapes one after the other with the police doing little. The girl who was set on fire by her gang of rapists with the police doing nothing. I won't take this culture's side.

[uppityperson]

32. Again, you miss the point. I am not asking you to "take this culture's side" but to not label the

entire country, all the people as "evil fucking place". Be outraged about the awful things that happen wherever they do. Of course. Good god why not. But labeling it as an "evil fucking place" goes beyond what will help anyone and is way too broadbrushing.

I guess I am part "evil fucking person" in your view. Oh well.

[get the red out]

35. The country is evil, on the whole, for the culture

at this point. They aren't doing much to change. All the people, no, I don't believe all the people are evil, I don't believe all Saudi Arabians are evil and I hate that culture more than anything. The culture has evil practices in it. All cultures were born to change or we would be speaking Sumarian. There are cultures I won't have much (or any) respect for on this planet until they show serious respect for the human rights of women and girls. And I will keep pissing people off about it, that I guarantee.

[JI7]

36. india is not a person, how about all the black kids being killed in the US, the THug cops who kill

innocent people in the US. what happened to the homeless man who was beaten to death and the jury acquitted them.

[get the red out]

39. How about

our CULTURE doesn't think that's ok. India's CULTURE, which is what I was talking about has horrific misogyny.

[uppityperson]

46. That works. eom

[JI7]

55. india does have misogyny and there is a major part of US culture which supports killing black kids

[Ash_F]

67. "Our culture" doesn't think that's ok, but it still happens

And perps still get away with it. I read stories with regularity so I think "our culture" maybe does think it is ok.

But if you think America or India have but one culture, you are wrong.

Check out this article bellow. I think you will find it elucidating.

Why Most Victims Don’t Report Rape(US Justice Department)
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/tips/why-most-victims-dont-report-rape

In regards to India, there are thousands marching there today for justice and I support them. There is a movement for change.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/Silent-march-concert-on-eve-of-Nirbhaya-Divas/articleshow/27389231.cms

Check out this video

[nomorenomore08]

72. Depends in part who you ask ("our culture doesn't think that's okay").

For almost any use of excessive force by cops, you'll have at least a few people jumping to their defense - or using a false sense of "plausible deniability" - particularly if the victim is black or Latino or American Indian.

With sexual assault, once again, it depends on the case. Some victims are treated sympathetically, but others are subjected to blame or suspicion for what happened to them - even though, by definition, a person cannot "ask" to be raped. This also tends to skew by race BTW.

[RKP5637]

102. That, IMO, is a good point. We have some deplorable acts in this

country, often unreported, others that are and decisions by courts have little compensation/fairness for the victims.

[JI7]

34. how about gun culture in the US, how minority men are discriminated against , Dominique Strauss Kahn

raped a maid and got away with it.

[get the red out]

41. That was AWFUL

But I missed the part where that lady was set on fire.

There are degrees of things. But I know the rules, never complain about any country but a first world country and keep my fucking mouth shut about women's rights in any country but a first world country. I know the "rules" I just choose to break them.

[JI7]

43. Men Stabbed, Set Woman on Fire at Wildlife Preserve: Police

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Wildlife-Preserve-Murder-Charges-240473631.html

[uppityperson]

47. That is not a rule except for some. Being able to see shades of grey is good. Speak out against

bad treatment but to call a whole country an "evil fucking place" goes beyond that.

[kestrel91316]

54. Are you always this ignorant?

[ellisonz]

85. +1

[dorkzilla]

77. What does it depend on?

Why would you not be taken seriously in NYC? All depends on what, pray tell?

[uppityperson]

78. Do you believe every report of a rape is taken seriously? I don't.

It depends on the situation. Have you ever been raped and/or tried to report it?

They SHOULD be taken seriously but unfortunately it is still not taken so too often.

It depends on who you are. Age, sex, sexual orientation, where you are, who the rapist was, what the situation was, etc etc etc. It shouldn't, but too often does.

And yes, I have been, tried to and was brushed off (though not in NYC), and have worked with women who have been and have reported it (again, in several other places in the country).

[dorkzilla]

79. Yes. I have been. And the cops took me very seriously.

It happened in…wait for it…NYC. And it happened before Giuliani.

I agree with you on not being taken seriously, i just was wondering if you were saying the cops specifically in NYC were less inclined to take rape claims seriously.

Being raped is possibly the worst thing that could happen to a person. After going through the trauma of rape, I don't know what a basket case I would have been if the cops thought I was lying.

[uppityperson]

80. No, I just picked on a big city, nothing against NYC in particular, sorry.

[dorkzilla]

81. No offense taken, just wondered! n/t

[Madam Mossfern]

109. The NYC cops told me

that the curtains on my windows should have been thicker....

Really....really....some creep broke in through the fire escape window.....it was at the back of the building, no view to street, dark colored curtains, but according to the police, maybe they were not dense enough. They made me feel like it was my fault. This was back in 1973 so maybe things have gotten better.

I still have PTSD.

[dorkzilla]

110. So sorry...

As much as I think NYPD has improved in many ways, clearly the world hasn't really changed for us; one quick look at some of the so-called "slut-shaming" of rape victims that have been in the media over the last year will prove that.

[Madam Mossfern]

108. I suspect

that a good amount of rapes in NYC are not stranger rapes. I am NOT dismissing date rape; so don't go there.

[reflection]

17. I hear you

but I stand by the statement. I get the sense that rape is not tacitly condoned in NYC as it is in India. Plus there seems to be a "pack" aspect present which would drastically lower the chances of the victim warding off the attack.

[uppityperson]

24. Things are changing here, but still too few are reported, too few taken seriously.

[reflection]

42. Been mulling it over. I would imagine

and this is purely a hunch, mind you, that the percentage of rapes that go unreported in India are higher than that of other places where you are likely to be taken seriously and/or not attacked (again) by your rapists when they go free.

So while I acknowledge my comment was hyperbolic, the gap between the hyperbole and reality may be smaller than is documented.

[JI7]

38. i don't think it's condoned as much as the Police are Corrupt along with the politicians

[MADem]

28. How many of those rapes happened on trains? It seems like a lot of happen on trains in India.

There's an absurd gender imbalance in India, due to the illegal but frequent practice of aborting female fetuses. I wonder if this imbalance contributes to these crimes.

[JI7]

40. i read something about the states in india which don't have the huge imbalance having lower

rates of sexual attacks . these states also happen to have more equality for women overall in things like education .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. i just got back from india without being raped. just fyi. nt

[Brigid]

51. I am glad. Seriously.

But as for me, I will never set foot in that place. I am not taking that kind of risk.

[snagglepuss]

65. I think being politically correct is putting female travellers in dangerous situations.

Indian culture is profoundly sexist. That is not a reacist remark, it is simply the truth. It is in the fabric of the culture that doesnt think twice of killing or aborting girls.

[cinnabonbon]

3. I feel so bad for her. Damnit, this happens way too frequently!

[NYC_SKP]

4. Cursory search shows Sweden at the top for rape per 100,000. India not high on list.

Just search for "rape incidents per 100,000 by country" to see some of the results.

Granted, many rapes go unreported or are measured differently from place to place.

Here's a graphic:

[uppityperson]

6. Thank you.

While hyperbole is understandable, it doesn't help

[closeupready]

7. Right, because in Sweden, rape victims are set on fire after police

fail to arrest the rapists, just like in India:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/02/india-gang-rape-victim-set-afire-dies/4296417/

[get the red out]

15. No, India has to be better than Sweden!

If we don't ignore certain little facts that get in the way like that whole silly, misunderstood, perfectly explainable setting women on fire thingie, well, that makes us racist. We need to move along, nothing going wrong in India......

Now Sweden, there's somewhere no one should visit.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

8. Sweden is a developed country with a modernized justice system.

I'm guessing rape in India is reported far less.


http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/01/11/1435191/report-rape-often-a-political-tool-in-india/

[NYC_SKP]

10. I'm quite certain that this and many other factors come into play. nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

44. Like?

.....

[NYC_SKP]

50. Like less cultural shame and fear felt by reporting victims.

For one. Possibly better care provided by the health care system creating further willingness to report.

Less income and wealth disparity, etc.

[MADem]

33. Except when it comes to JULIAN ASSANGE! Then, those women are "conniving" and "tools" and who knows

what else? They're victimizing that 'poor' lad, doncha know.....

icon for the irony impaired.

[anasv]

82. rapes are definitely reported far less often in India.

Nearly every news article on this situation includes that information.

[MADem]

57. Your figures are, to put it politely, worthless.

The crime is frequently NOT reported in India--and there was another European raped just yesterdayfrom Denmark.

NEW DELHI — A 51-year-old Danish tourist was gang-raped near a popular shopping area in New Delhi after she got lost and approached a group of men for directions back to her hotel, police said Wednesday.
Police spokesman Rajan Bhagat said two people were arrested after a daylong search for the suspects. Details were not immediately available.
The attack is the latest crime to focus attention on the scourge of sexual violence in India.
The woman also was robbed and beaten in the attack, which happened Tuesday near Connaught Place, Bhagat said......


Cultural stigmas, police apathy and judicial incompetence have long made it difficult for women to even report rapes.
Still, there has been a surge in the number of rapes being reported recently, suggesting women are emboldened to speak up. Between January and October last year, 1,330 rapes were reported in Delhi and its suburbs, compared with 706 for all of 2012, according to government figures.
Foreigners also have been targets, including a Swiss woman who was cycling with her husband in central India when she was gang-raped.....

India has a fucking PROBLEM. This isn't just "bad press." This is a bunch of assholes running around committing crimes in packs. They prey on tourists because they figure they'll leave, making it more likely that they'll get away with their crime. The morons don't understand that they're ensuring that no one will want to visit their country.

You can count me out. I want no part of a place that treats half the population like absolute shit.




More on the real story/statistics:

Rape in India has been described by Radha Kumar as one of India's most common crimes against women[1] and by the UN’s human-rights chief as a “national problem”.[2] Marital rape is not a criminal offence.[3]

Per-capita reported incidents of rape are quite low compared to other countries, even developed countries.[4][5] According to 2012 statistics, New Delhi has the highest number of rape-reports among Indian cities, while Jabalpur has the per capita incidence of reported rapes.[6][7] Sources show that rape cases in India have doubled between 1990 and 2008.[8] According to the National Crime Records Bureau, 24,206 rape cases were reported in India in 2011, but experts agree that the number of unreported cases of sexual assault brings the total much higher.[9]

The latest estimates suggest that a new case of rape is reported every 22 minutes in India.[10]

[NYC_SKP]

58. Well, duh. They aren't my figures and I clearly included a caveat.

It would seem unnecessary to point out that differences exist that might, scratch that, definitely WOULD skew collected data.

I get it, believe me.

But I also want to quash any rush to jump on the poor brown people as the only place where rapes occur.

[MADem]

59. The situation there is DIRE and comparing their "figures" to anything is pointless.

It's like ignoring the fact that China executes something like two thousand people a year, simply because they don't report it.

This isn't about "color" and "brown people" but it IS about culture, and the culture of that society, as a consequence of a wide and widening gap between rich and poor, and a gender imbalance in the population that is significant, does play into this problem--and make no mistake, it is a major problem.

China is another country where they have a severe shortage of potential wives, and a rape problem--not a little one, either. Some rapes (like in India) aren't illegal over there-- in China, both same sex rape and marital rape don't "count"--get outta jail free on those...it's an issue.

And whoopee, they're finally closing this loophole--what sports!

China to End Loophole in Child Rape Law, Experts Say


For 16 years, children’s rights advocates have called on the Chinese government to do away with a law that allows men who have sex with girls under 14 years of age, the legal age of consent, to receive a more lenient punishment than those convicted of raping older girls or women if they can “prove” that the child was paid or otherwise compensated for sex.

The crime of “spending the night in a brothel with a young girl” provides an incentive for sexual predators to choose younger girls in order to evade the heaviest sentences, critics say. Men accused of raping a child could bribe or force the girl or her family to testify that she had been paid. The law also stigmatizes the girls by labeling them as prostitutes, activists say.

The Chinese Supreme Court has indicated to a leading proponent of changing the law, National People’s Congress deputy Sun Xiaomei, that it accepts the argument that the law, which has been on the books since 1997, is unfair and wrong. While no date has been set for the legal change, child rights activists and feminists are jubilant.

“It’s a really, really positive change,” said Zhang Rongli, a law professor at the China Women’s University. “And it’s an example of the government listening to public opinion. This law was very unpopular throughout society. Surveys showed that 98 or 99 percent of people opposed it. The government listened.”....The discrepancy in penalties depending on payment was also a problem, said Ms. Zhang. As was the fact that the law set no “lower limit” for age, applying to children from birth to 14. “It was awful,” she said.

[NYC_SKP]

61. I don't think it's pointless. My point is that rape happens, sadly, EVERYWHERE.

[font size=50]EVERYWHERE[/font size]

.

.

.

.

.

.

I don't want anybody thinking that it's OK as long as you avoid places like India.

Hope that's ok with you. Not trying to downplay this, quite the opposite.

[MADem]

62. Let me put it this way--you ARE safer in Bangor than Bangalore.

You ARE safer in New York than New Delhi.

Yes, it happens "everywhere" but there aren't roaming gangs of rapists in towns and cities across USA. Rape on American trains is not a regular occurrence. In USA, this type of assault is usually the action of a sexual predator who has mental health issues that impact his criminality. In India and China, there is a cultural overlay to the issue, beyond simple sex predators, that is exacerbated by the populations' attitudes towards women and their perceived value to society. Unless those attitudes are addressed, along with the poverty equation and the gender imbalance issues (they'll have to import women, I should think--but who'd want to go there to settle, in a strange country with no rights?) this problem will continue and it will get worse.

[Ash_F]

66. "You ARE safer in New York than New Delhi."

That is a pretty specific claim but I am not seeing it evidenced anywhere in your previous posts. What are you basing this on?

[MADem]

69. Do examine the links I provide, taking into account that most rapes in India are NOT reported. nt

[Ash_F]

74. I have but what percentage do you think go unreported?

What can you cite to back this up? It is a very big claim to go unsupported. For the US I found this:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

Based on that most rapes in the US are also not reported.

[MADem]

75. Have a look at the forty five degree angle on the graph. And these additional cites which are

responsive to your query.

In a country where tradition still holds sway, there's an explosion in reporting. Even with the explosion, I would wager that MOST rapes--even more than the second link suggests-- are not reported, and that "one percent" is an OPTIMISTIC figure, even after that forty five degree upsweep. I would also wager that, owing to the culture, rapes in India are more likely to be violent attacks as opposed to situations where an impaired person is unable to give consent, or even unaware of the crime being committed, owing to being drunk or under the influence of drugs, which is often the situation in USA. And forget even trying to codify "marital rape." It's not a crime in India, so knock that off your statistics entirely.


More here as well--listen to this podcast, and tell me that this kind of reporting wouldn't get a furious reaction here in America.

And even more here--and I suspect this figure is optimistic (never mind this article is put forth under "relationships" and not "crime" where it belongs): Only 1 out of 10 Women Report Rape

....In fact, a close friend of the 22-year-old techie, who had alerted his friends and the Madhapur cops about the girl's abduction, while talking to us, said, "Nothing happened to her. Please understand that she will be 'ruined' if people start talking about this incident".

"That's exactly how a rape survivor and her family feels — 'ruined'," says Asma Manowar, programme co-ordinator of Shaheen Resource Centre for Women. "We deal with many such cases of rape. When these women come to us, we try to counsel them, but they are too reluctant to report the crime. I would say, with great difficulty, we manage to convince only two out of 10 maybe, to report the incident and bring their culprits to book. The reasons are very obvious — it's the way our society treats a rape survivor. In some cases, even if the woman is ready to report the crime, that too after much conviction, the family is not willing. Marriage is another big reason for young girls to not report sexual assault. They feel that once the crime is reported, they will never be married. But they aren't wrong altogether. Our society does treat rape survivors very differently. They are discriminated against." Apart from societal pressures, the 'I am damaged' kind of thought that most rape survivors attached to themselves, also plays a bigger role in dissuading them from speaking about sexual assault, says psychiatrist Dr Savita Date Menon. "Figures of women reporting rape in India is low, because we have a negative way of looking at a victim. Though intelligently and cognitively, we understand that it's not the woman's fault, we are yet to learn how a rape victim should be treated. Till we learn that, the figures will continue to remain low despite education, awareness campaigns and laws to deal with such crimes."

Understanding the psyche of the survivor is also of utmost importance, if women are to be encouraged to report crimes of sexual nature. "The victim is not only shocked and traumatised, but as a society we also force her to think how people will look at her from thereon. That is when she develops the 'I am a damaged person' kind of syndrome, and thus, she is not only forced to relive the incident again and again, but also question herself — Why me? I must have invited undue attention, I have to feel ashamed about being raped, etc. This has to stop before we encourage women to report rape," explains Dr Menon......

If you're not disgusted yet, read this and ask yourself honestly if this kind of shit would be anything but The Topic Du Jour for weeks and months on every cable news outlet in USA if this kind of crap went on here. And this family would not have to wait for justice. A salient statistic from this brutal story:

“The whole thing is so traumatic and it takes so long that people feel that it’s better to keep quiet and forget all about it and carry on with life,” said Enakshi Ganguly Thukral, co-director of the HAQ Centre for Child Rights in New Delhi, an advocacy group for young victims of sexual abuse that helps train law enforcement and court officers. “There is no guarantee of justice at the end of the day.”

No Interest

Rajat Mitra, a psychologist and director of a trauma counseling center in New Delhi, said sexual predators know it. He interviewed about 200 men charged with or convicted of sex crimes between 2000 and 2005. He said the men were consistent: They didn’t think anyone was interested in solving rape cases.

“One of the major things that came across from the pedophiles and the rapists was that, ‘We can get away,’” Mitra said. They told him that either the woman wouldn’t file a complaint “or the victim will not be believed.”........Except in rare cases, trials last for years, in part because of a shortage of judges. India has 15.5 jurists per million people, while the U.S. has more than 100. To work through just the backlog of unresolved rape cases -- 86,032 at the end of 2012 -- the courts would have to decide more than 78 a day, every day, for three years straight.

[Ash_F]

83. This is still not supportive of your statement

Assuming the 60% non-report rate for the US, the real rate would be 41.4 per 100,000

A 90% non-report rate India would indicate a real rate of 16.2 per 100,000

Your assertion of a 99% non-report rate has no basis. You are not in India doing research. Dr. Krishnan is actually in country, doing the work so her word is going to have more weight here.

Therefore if you are trying to say that women are safer from being raped in the US than India, you simply have nothing to support that and, in fact, all evidence points to the opposite being true.


I do agree that women have less chance of getting justice in India than the US. There is plenty to support that. But it's not a great chance in the US either.

[MADem]

84. Well, yes, I do--and you can choose to not read the cites I provide, and that's fine,

but a "less than one percent" reporting rate is what it is.

In a recent study of 24 developing countries that I conducted with my colleagues, Jennifer Bleck of the University of South Florida and Amber Peterman of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, we found that a combined total of only 7 percent of survivors of gender-based violence (physical and sexual, perpetrated by anyone, including intimate partners) formally reported the violence to police, medical, or social services—combined.

But in India, less than 1 percent of survivors reported gender-based violence to formal sources. This was the lowest percentage among all of the countries we studied. The highest was Colombia, with 26 percent.

And if you think--for a second--that if gang rapes happened routinely on American trains, that no one would notice--I have a bridge in NJ for sale.

It's ingrained in the culture. No one is punished. The victim is blamed.

When would you see "millions of women" taking part in "anti-rape protests" in USA? When the numbers of assaults were to the point that the crime was as routine as getting one's car gassed up. You keep trying to pretend there's some equivalency, and there isn't. It's like the difference between a cold and the plague. Women can't even work, safely, in that sort of environment.

But hey, keep up the "nothing to see here, move along" attitude, if it works for you. I don't agree with your opinion--I believe the reports I see coming out of India, where women are denied equality and opportunity, in part out of paternalistic fears that they'll be assaulted.

I also think a suggestion that "two wrongs make a right" is just not the right attitude. This is some serious shit, and it's 'outside the norm' when it comes to the numbers.

[Ash_F]

86. This source says "gender based violence"

Which includes all types of physical abuse, not just rape. That number is also going to be lower in America than the rape reporting rate by itself.

At this point I have only been going on your sources. It is not a "nothing to see here" attitude. I am trying to show you how your own sources do not support your claim that women are safer from rape in America than they are in India. Your own sources indicate the opposite.

People are taking part in protest because women do not have sufficient legal recourse in India. Less so than in America, but we need to do the same here. Our higher rate of sexual assault and our own low reporting rate is indicative of that.

[MADem]

87. Oh, come off it. They have an horrific problem in India, and you're quibbling about

what sort of problem. Marital rape in India is not illegal, you know--so let's not even get into those numbers!

There's no "mitigating" this matter. It's BAD. It's getting worse. And the reputation of the nation is suffering, made worse when the government (of males, by and large) and businesspeople/tourism spokespeople (again, male) try to pooh-pooh or minimize the severity of the problem.

And foreigners, people who don't know the good neighborhoods from the bad, who are unaware of the dangers, are targets:

http://www.dhakatribune.com/crime/2014/jan/21/bangladeshi-women-gang-raped-india

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25740355

http://www.dawn.com/news/1078724/polish-woman-raped-in-india-while-travelling-with-daughter

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/young-german-charity-worker-raped-indian-train-article-1.1581863

http://www.nation.com.pk/international/28-Dec-2013/woman-gang-raped-on-christmas-eve-in-india

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-12/preschool-rape-case-belies-justice-for-india-women-born-to-lose.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2014/01/indian-sex-attacks-spark-foreign-warnings-20141187147583593.html

Indian sex attacks spark foreign warnings
Canada, France and UK update advice for women travelling through India after high-profile attacks on foreigners.

Information on the UK's Foreign Office website said: "Serious sexual attacks involving Polish, German and Danish women travellers have been reported so far in 2014. Women travellers should exercise caution when travelling in India even if they are travelling in a group."

The Canadian government offered similar advice, while the French government singled out Delhi.

“The greatest caution is recommended, particularly in Paharganj, a popular area close to Connaught Place and New Delhi Railway Station, very popular with tourists for its cheap hotels,” it said.

France and the UK are two of the 10 biggest tourist markets for India. The US, the top market for India, updated its travel advice last March to read: "Indian authorities report rape is one of the fastest growing crimes in India. Keep your hotel room number confidential and make sure hotel room doors have chains, deadlocks, and spy-holes."

Travel companies fear India is increasingly gaining a reputation for being unsafe for women, with some telling The Hindu newspaper there had already been a drop in the number of travellers from Germany.

[Ash_F]

93. OK now you are just swinging at windmills.

I never said it wasn't a problem. But a woman is more likely to be a victim rape in the US than in India. It is not my fault that you do not know how to interpret your own source material.

Accept that fact and come off it yourself.

[MADem]

94. No, I'm not, and that assertion is complete hogwash.

You still aren't wrapping your head around that ONE PERCENT comment, and ignoring that marital rape isn't illegal in India. Not sure why you're so eager to deny the obvious, here--puzzling.

[Ash_F]

95. GBV stands for all type of physical abuse, not just marital rape.

I think you understand this but are now just arguing for the sake of it.

[MADem]

96. I'm not even arguing. I've presented you with facts and you ignore them.

I'm at a loss to understand why you're minimizing this. I am at the point, though, where I'm just doing the whole "consider the source" thing and ready to leave it by the wayside.

Some people are just determined to not see a problem when it hits them in the face, out of fear of seeming, I don't know, intolerant or something.

I'd rather express an extreme intolerance for roving bands of violent gang rapists and point out what most people the world over seem to realize (which is why diplomatic agencies are issuing travel warnings), not pooh-pooh them and minimize the conduct like it's not that a big a deal--but hey, that's me. Your mileage apparently varies.

[Ash_F]

97. Strawman

You should go back to where I originally entered this subthread and read again. You are kind of all over the place with your false accusations.

Here let me simplify it for you or anyone who is having a hard time keeping up.

Question: Is a woman more likely to be a victim of rape in the USA or India?

Answer: The USA (See MADem's posts for citation)



You are welcome. I am glad we could have this discussion.

[MADem]

98. Just because you say so, that doesn't make it true.

See my posts for citation.

Have a nice day.

[Ash_F]

99. If you choose to ignore the fact that women are more likely to be raped in the US,

... and for some reason argue vociferously that it is not so, then you are one who is minimizing a problem.


The United States has progressed farther in women's legal rights than India, but there are severe cultural problems and lack of resources here. Enough that it has allowed the sexual assault rate to overshadow India's by a wide margin. It is worth understanding exactly why this difference exists because it can be a benefit women's safety and justice internationally.

[MADem]

100. I am not "choosing to ignore" it. USA reports marital rape as rape.

India doesn't. That's what you're ignoring.

[Ash_F]

101. Marital rape is illegal in India

There are no criminal penalties, only civil, and that is unacceptable.

But I do not know if those cases are represented in India's statistics and you are again without citation that this is so.


Marital rapes are very unlikely to be reported in either country. To back up you claim, you would need to show that there is a difference in the incidence of spousal rape in both countries and that it is wide enough that it would cause India's real rate to overtake that of America's higher one.

Finding statistics for the incidence of spousal rape is difficult. In a cursory search, I found different numbers from different sources on both countries but nothing to show what percent of those cases are then reported to law enforcement.

Based on what is available, your assertion that women are safer from sexual violence in the US is false.

[MADem]

103. What "civil penalties?" It's NOT A "CRIME" in India.

OK--now I know what I'm dealing with, here. You're just making stuff up.

Why India Still Allows Marital Rape

.....
“There is no law which allows us to press charges against our husbands,” she says.

Under Indian law, marital rape is not a crime. This places India in the company of a handful of countries, including China, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

In the wake of the gang rape of a 23-year-old woman last year, India last week strengthened its sexual assault legislation. But despite calls from activists, a man who rapes his wife cannot be punished under the country’s laws.

Whether to criminalize marital rape was widely debated in India ahead of last week’s vote in Parliament.

Criminalizing marital rape was also among the suggestions of the Verma Committee, a three-member panel appointed to suggest amendments to India’s sexual assault laws. The government rejected this proposed change, leaving it out of the draft bill it then presented to Parliament.

A panel of lawmakers who opposed the move argued it “has the potential of destroying the institution of marriage,” according to a report submitted to Parliament earlier this month.

“If marital rape is brought under the law, the entire family system will be under great stress,” adds the report.

Lawyers and women’s rights activists have sharply criticized the decision to leave marital rape out of the penal code.

This shit is entrenched, it's been going on for decades in the modern era, but in reality, centuries.

[Ash_F]

104. "India Abolishes Husbands’ ‘Right’ To Rape Wife"

Since 2006 apparently.

http://www.amren.com/news/2006/10/india_abolishes/


Need I remind you that you have been arguing against your own sources for the last few posts? I am pretty sure Dr. Krishnan considers marital rape to be rape and trust her 90% figure to be as accurate as any other group's research. I must thank you for pointing me to her work as it is admirable.

So what am I dealing with here? You seem like you are just embarrassed about being wrong about the USA's higher rape rate. Get over the fact that you were wrong and move on. You are minimizing this country's own problem by doing so.

[MADem]

105. Your citation just isn't true. How's that for a problem?

Go down to the end of your 2006 "cite" and click on "Original article." It goes to a story about birds. So....whatever.

Here are a few sources that are first, more recent than 2006, aren't from blogs with bad "original article" links, and say the exact opposite of your insistence. I'm just flummoxed that you're so anxious to minimize what is a problem so overwheming that diplomatic agencies in several contries have issued travel warnings. Now, to me, that's just flat-out weird.

Why India Still Allows Marital Rape.

Supporters of the government’s decision, including the police, claim it is hard to prosecute marital rape, because unlike an unmarried victim, evidence of penetration is not considered sufficient evidence for rape. The law, they argue, could be misused by couples.

Some activists acknowledge it is hard to prove rape among married women, but argue this is not a good enough reason to deny women a legal framework to fight sexual abuse. “A murder is also hard to prove,” says Vrinda Grover, a human rights lawyer. “But that doesn’t deny victims from seeking legal recourse,” she says.

Ms. Grover criticized the observations made by the Parliament appointed-panel of lawmakers as “misogynistic.”

“These statements defeat the entire purpose of the bill itself,” Ms. Grover said. “One hears about cases of marital rape everyday… Why then is the government turning a blind eye?” she asks.

While official data on marital rape remains sparse, activists and lawmakers claim there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is on the rise.

In early 2000, for instance, two-thirds of married Indian women surveyed by the United Nations Population Fund claimed to have been forced into sex by their husbands.

New India sex crime laws not tough enough: UN rapportuer

New measures passed by lawmakers in March increased punishments for sex offenders to include the death penalty if a victim dies, and broadened the definition of sexual assault.

But Rashida Manjoo, the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against women, said the laws were still not tough enough.

She told a news conference it was unfortunate that the opportunity to establish a substantive framework "to protect and prevent against all forms of violence against women, was lost".

Her comments echoed those of other Indian women's activists who praised the intent of the legislation but said it still had huge holes.

Campaigners are unhappy about lawmakers' refusal to criminalise marital rape or increase the punishment for acid attacks on women from a minimum seven-year jail term.

The UN official, who toured several Indian states to obtain first-hand reports about violence against women, said she would release her findings to the world body next year.

She said she had heard on her 10-day visit about "sexual violence, domestic violence, caste-based discrimination and violence, dowry related deaths, crimes in the name of honour" and other offences.

She quoted one person on her trip as describing violence against women as spanning the "life cycle from womb to the tomb".

India passes tough new rape law - but does it go far enough?

Yet activists have complained that much is missing from the bill.

Notably, it does not criminalize the rape of a woman by her husband. That oversight contravenes the Indian constitution, "which considers women as equal human beings who have a right to live with dignity and be free from violence within and outside marriage," Sudha Sundararaman of the All India Democratic Women's Association told the Times of India.

Neither does the bill tackle incest or child trafficking, ban politicians charged with rape from running for public office, or lower the age of consent from 18 to 16, which campaigners had hoped would prevent the unfair criminalization of consensual relationships between teenagers.

Furthermore, there are concerns that "the rush to put tougher penalties in place and defuse public anger over the issue may create further problems for India's already beleaguered justice system," Agence France-Presse said, citing the danger that inadequately trained police would misapply the new laws.

Now, that's three cites, recent ones too, that belie your weak, curious insistence (using an EIGHT YEAR OLD blog as "evidence" with a bad link) that what I said was not accurate.

My cites tell the truth about what the law is in India--your lousy one is not.

[Ash_F]

106. It directly quotes the Independant's full article, a well known paper

And Justin Huggler has been with them a long time. Do you think it was made up entirely out of whole cloth? Urls do not always survive for years. Don't dig yourself deeper.

Also you need to understand the difference between criminalization and illegality if you don't already. They are not one and the same.

But let's not forget the point of contention here, I am not arguing that women are receiving adequate legal protection in India. I was skeptical of you claim that women were safer in the US despite America's much higher rape-rate and asked for citation. The citation you have provided has only cemented that this is not true. 90% is simply not sufficient to make up the difference. You didn't know that. Now you do.

You still have not explained why you suddenly do not trust your original source of 90% after you were shown that figure does not back up your claim that women are safer from sexual assault in the US than India. A 99% rate would, but you made it up without doing any real research.

[MADem]

107. They erred in their reporting eight years ago. I've provided you cites in refutation, yet

you continue to play a "Nothing to see here, move along" game with me.

I'm not buying it. You've failed to prove your argument.

[Ash_F]

111. The article is extremely detailed, so that is one hell of an error

Last edited Wed Jan 22, 2014, 07:33 PM - Edit history (1)

There are other articles from around that time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Women_from_Domestic_Violence_Act_2005
"Domestic violence" includes actual abuse or the threat of abuse that is physical, sexual, verbal, emotional and economic."

Read for comprehension. Your cites are not wrong but you are. This is a recurring theme with you. You do not understand the numbers or the meaning of what you are reading, or are trying to twist them to support your previous false statement. After the fact.


I will also add that you are arguing against two of your previous sources, not just one. Looking at the 99% figure for non-reporting of GBV, non-reporting of rapes would have to be a lower number. This is because rape is a subset of all kinds of GBV, including striking a woman. So unless you think women report being beaten 100% of the time in India, then it is impossible for both the rates for GBV and rape to be 99%.

Side note: I checked the abstract of the study you linked to earlier and it said the reporting rate of GBV in India is actually 2% so we should have been saying 98% all along. But everything I said still stands with that number. it actually tilts the numbers slightly further towards what I have been saying.
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/12/12/aje.kwt295.abstract



Let me ask you this: Why is it so hard for you to accept that there is a higher rape rate in the US than India?

[MADem]

112. Because there isn't. nt

[Ash_F]

113. Amazing

[MADem]

114. Yep, you sure are! nt

[freshwest]

70. WHAT IF 'ensuring that no one will want to visit their country' is their goal?

Perhaps they want to keep all those pesky furriners and their ideas out? Just sayin'

[MADem]

71. Could be the goal of the rapists...but India relies heavily on the Almighty Tourist Dollar, and

Pound....etc.

It's why they leapt for joy at the Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. See how sweet and charming we are !!! Never mind the rape-y shit, of course!

[magical thyme]

89. Sorry, but b.s. If there was "one world definition" of rape, that might have meaning.

As it happens, there is not. In fact, in the US, there is not even "one country definition" of rape.

"The report’s comparative dimension should probably be ignored. Instead of assuming that there are four times as many rapes in Sweden as in neighbouring Denmark or Finland, as the figures suggest, to understand we would have to compare all the definitional and procedural differences between their legal systems. It is significant that Sweden counts every event between the same two people separately where other countries count them as one. Most of Sweden’s rapes involve people who know each other, in domestic settings. "

"In many countries, and in many people’s minds, rape means penetration, usually by a penis, into a mouth, vagina or anus. In Swedish rape law, the word can be used for acts called assault or bodily harm in other countries.

http://www.thelocal.se/20090511/19376


"Under Swedish law, consensual sex can be classified as ’rape’....

If there is no proof of force or threat of force, the judges will consider the intent of the perpetrator. In practice this leads to many cases of ’word against word’ in which the man will have to prove his innocence. This reverses the burden of proof that is basic to criminal trials in Western legal systems, in which the accused is innocent until proven guilty.....

Sweden has three categories of ’rape’:
• gross rape (4-10 years imprisonment)
• ordinary rape (2-4 years imprisonment)
• minor rape (0-4 years imprisonment)

"Sweden’s definition of legal rape includes the idea of ’unlawful coercion’, which involves exerting emotional pressure on someone to have sex."

http://justice4assange.com/Sexual-Offences.html

[NYC_SKP]

91. "Granted, many rapes go unreported or are measured differently from place to place."

Is what I wrote, just above the map.

As your citations indicate, the "measured differently" part really needed to be said.

Thanks for verification.

[magical thyme]

92. "measured differently" is a massive understatement, as is "many rapes go unreported."

When you look at their laws, Sweden has probably the loosest definition of what constitutes rape in the world.

In Sweden, children are taught "gender equality" from an early age in school. They are encouraged to report. And emotional pressure qualifies as rape.

In most countries, children are *not* taught gender equality, they are discouraged and punished for reporting.

India (and China) are extremely mysogenist countries, where large numbers of fetuses are aborted specifically for being female, female babies are abandoned, their spines deliberately broken, etc. In India, women have acid thrown in their faces and have been mutilated by their husbands. This has been a well known and publicized issue for decades now.

That this contempt for females would carry over into violent rape seems pretty consistent with their values.

In Sweden, Assange is wanted for rape because he figured consent the night before translated into consent in the early morning. Oh, and because a condom broke.

Somehow that just doesn't seem to compare with, say, violent gangrape of a total stranger, including with a pipe until her insides were pulp, pulling her instestines out of her vagina and then throwing her off a moving bus and left to die.

[Skittles]

9. you couldn't pay me to go to India

no indeed

[CTyankee]

11. Me neither.

But my reason has always been the way the poor are so degraded there. I've been stunned by what I've read about it. This is a new reason not to go.

[Skittles]

12. I have many reasons too

certainly not just their gang rape problem

[CTyankee]

13. I don't want to go to China either. But that is because of its pollution.

It sounds just awful.

My travel dollars go to Europe every year. And seeing family here.

[get the red out]

16. Same here

Well said.

[uppityperson]

20. Buy me a ticket and I'd go. So many beautiful places in India, such a different culture than here.

There are places in every country, state, city, that I would not go, but to deny a whole country? Not me.

[athena]

49. I, too, would love to go to India.

It's not right to paint an entire country with such a broad, negative brush because of the actions of a few. Doing so reveals a deep lack of understanding of what makes up a culture. It's especially misguided in reference to India, which is a diverse country that even has regions that are run by women.

What's ironic is that people in other countries make similarly unfair generalizations about the U.S. When I lived in Switzerland, I was dismayed to meet Swiss and French people who made extremely naive generalizations about Americans. One such generalization was that "Americans care only about money." I tried to explain that most Americans are good, honest people, but they wouldn't hear of it. They seemed to think that what they saw on TV and in the movies was a better representation of the U.S. than anything I could tell them from my own experience.

Liberals who refuse to go to places like India are, in some ways, like tea-party Republicans who refuse to travel outside the U.S. By staying in the U.S., the latter are able to continue to delude themselves into believing that the U.S. is still "number one" and that "socialist" countries like Canada and France are poor, dirty, and disorganized. Based on such beliefs, they vote for Republicans, who they think will save the U.S. from a similar fate. The result is roads that are not maintained and bridges that collapse.

In summary, I don't see how it helps anyone to refuse to visit another country. (On the other hand, it's better for the environment to save the jet fuel, so perhaps it's just as well.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. agreed. nt

[Glimmer of Hope]

56. I went to India a couple years ago and can't wait to back. It was amazing!

I would never go there or any other third world country alone though.

[philosslayer]

31. File this under "knockout game hype"

Yes, what happened to this girl is awful, but now every episode in a country of 1 Billion + people is being hyped. Sounds like the knockout game hype to me.

[JI7]

37. no, the problem with sexual assault is a much more real and serious problem

but it would be naive to think it is only happening there.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

45. Rape isn't hype.

It's a real problem all over the world and for those who are raped it is very very real.

[msanthrope]

60. Yeah--I'm sure it was 'hype' to the victim. nt

[MADem]

63. Not a very informed comment. To be polite. nt

[Beacool]

48. Was she alone?

Poor girl!!!

As for India, it'll be a long time before I step foot in the country.

[titaniumsalute]

64. You've got to assume that going to India is safer than where I live...

FLORIDA! Shit, we'll shoot you dead for texting during the commercials before the movie starts.

[nomorenomore08]

73. Good point. "Safe" is always relative and subjective.

And focusing on the (admittedly horrifying) actions of people in other countries can create a false sense of security about one's own.

[unreadierLizard]

68. India for you.

Sorry but I doubt it'll change.

Indian men in the country by and large view women as property or pieces of meat to be used whenever they want.

[shenmue]

76. :(

[GRACIEBIRD]

88. this is big news in Europe

I don't understand it, has there always been a pattern of raping Indian men or is it a new occurrence? I just had friends return from Goa, thankfully no bad news to report.

[Pterodactyl]

90. Safety tip: Stay out of India.