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Freddie Stubbs

(29,853 posts)
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:13 PM Jan 2014

Obama: College Degree Not Needed for a Good Career

Source: Associated Press

President Barack Obama says not everyone needs a college degree to build a great career, as long as people have the right training.

Obama traveled to a General Electric facility in the Milwaukee area Thursday to promote training programs for in-demand jobs.

Obama says workers might make a better living with skilled trades and manufacturing than an art history degree.

He's ordering Vice President Joe Biden to lead a government-wide review of federal job training programs and make sure they are driven by employer needs.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/wisconsin-obama-focus-job-training-22294766

79 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Obama: College Degree Not Needed for a Good Career (Original Post) Freddie Stubbs Jan 2014 OP
:popcorn: Wilms Jan 2014 #1
Now if only employers would stop requiring unnecessary degrees for those jobs... Viva_La_Revolution Jan 2014 #2
BINGO n/t VWolf Jan 2014 #5
Agreed. Xyzse Jan 2014 #12
For many, a degree means debt. For an employer, debt means control. RadiationTherapy Jan 2014 #14
Excellent point. jsr Jan 2014 #23
A lot of they SAY they do, but they don't, actually. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #15
Not so everywhere. upaloopa Jan 2014 #26
That's true, I was overly-absolute there. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #46
My mom started out with an AA in the early 80's davidpdx Jan 2014 #56
That's been my experience in many cases too penultimate Feb 2014 #76
Yup sakabatou Jan 2014 #22
Not sure about all industry, but in telecom years/experience trump degrees every time.. snooper2 Jan 2014 #39
I completely agree. Skilled trades training is extremely important and a great JaneyVee Jan 2014 #3
Agree, but waiting for the anti-tradesmen chorous to start... cprise Jan 2014 #34
How many PasadenaTrudy Jan 2014 #41
And ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2014 #40
No, they move the factories instead. alarimer Feb 2014 #74
Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2014 #77
Skilled trades training is extremely important AlbertCat Jan 2014 #47
Pounding nails and slinging blocks for a living is a life fullfilling dream most trustfunders never adirondacker Jan 2014 #50
Some of the smartest and most interesting people I have ever made fall in the "skilled trades" cat Yo_Mama Jan 2014 #58
And it's so much easier to control everyone with propaganda. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #59
Exactly right. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #4
True. ForgoTheConsequence Jan 2014 #6
I couldn't agree more...... Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #7
I think we need to get out of this mindset about extending childhood ebbie15644 Jan 2014 #20
We are aligned..... Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #29
Thanks! for the response. I feel alone in this world sometimes, lol ebbie15644 Jan 2014 #60
You know who is great at training programs for skilled trades? Maedhros Jan 2014 #8
I agree but those apprenticeships are hard to come by. ebbie15644 Jan 2014 #18
They are NOW, after decades of government and corporate assault on unions.[n/t] Maedhros Jan 2014 #24
+1000 frwrfpos Jan 2014 #30
When I was young I applied for both a union apprenticeship and college davidpdx Jan 2014 #55
Education is not necessarily for a vocation, knowledge should be free. dotymed Jan 2014 #9
Ditto all that notemason Jan 2014 #11
Absolutely notemason. dotymed Jan 2014 #62
Oh yes, notemason Jan 2014 #64
+1 CountAllVotes Jan 2014 #63
Excellent points tabasco Jan 2014 #66
When I look at resumes, I rarely look at their school. onehandle Jan 2014 #10
Of course. For some jobs it is, others not. People need all sorts of training. uppityperson Jan 2014 #13
Correct. But people do need good career options even if they don't have a degree. Brickbat Jan 2014 #16
a college education is more than just training for a career. olddad56 Jan 2014 #17
A good base "liberal" education is essential. NOT FOX NEWS warrant46 Jan 2014 #21
I think were are past the tipping point on that one, olddad56 Jan 2014 #33
Learning Latin and French worked for me. warrant46 Jan 2014 #44
And what might that "good career" be, pray tell? LiberalEsto Jan 2014 #19
Oh really, this smacks of hypocricy saidsimplesimon Jan 2014 #25
Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2014 #43
I think, even as children become more sexually active at a younger age, that they are less mature MADem Jan 2014 #27
I have a friend PasadenaTrudy Jan 2014 #42
She's moving towards "outlier" territory, but nowadays, people hop from job to job MADem Jan 2014 #45
But Congress is needed... Orsino Jan 2014 #28
Been searching desperately for appliance repairmen mainer Jan 2014 #31
All he's talking about is a federal jobs training review? Where are the actual jobs? last1standing Jan 2014 #32
Walmart needs staff plumbers. CHEAP and Pronto! nt adirondacker Jan 2014 #53
That's all fine & dandy if you can swing a hammer Oscarmonster13 Jan 2014 #35
No matter what field you go into, you have to learn all your life. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #36
This is right on target. It's not an either/or where tech training or post-secondary liberal arts LuckyLib Jan 2014 #71
Boooo! PasadenaTrudy Jan 2014 #37
If this is true... Dopers_Greed Jan 2014 #38
this has always been true treestar Jan 2014 #48
Progress is our most important product polynomial Jan 2014 #49
True story: Kelvin Mace Jan 2014 #51
I received my technical training in the military madville Jan 2014 #52
I don't trust anything that Obama or his pal Arne Duncan have to say about education. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #54
I'm not sure what this has to do with the fact that there are 3 applicants for every job Doctor_J Jan 2014 #57
Maybe not "needed" but ... CountAllVotes Jan 2014 #61
Uneducated people PasadenaTrudy Jan 2014 #67
This guy is quite the idiot CountAllVotes Jan 2014 #68
Is he going to say every GOP talking point during his presidency? yurbud Jan 2014 #65
He sure has wrung up quite a few Doctor_J Jan 2014 #69
he's doing a lot to prove my suspicion that our only choice in elections is yurbud Jan 2014 #70
I wonder how many of his appointments don't have a college degree. n/t hughee99 Feb 2014 #72
This is no longer true. alarimer Feb 2014 #73
objectively that is true. There are a number of skilled occupations that pay a lot better than Douglas Carpenter Feb 2014 #75
"... human beings need bread and roses" suffragette Feb 2014 #78
Meanwhile India and China are pushing their citizens to get advanced degrees in the sciences... NoodleyAppendage Feb 2014 #79

Viva_La_Revolution

(28,791 posts)
2. Now if only employers would stop requiring unnecessary degrees for those jobs...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:22 PM
Jan 2014

then we might make some progress.

Xyzse

(8,217 posts)
12. Agreed.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:55 PM
Jan 2014

Huge problem I see with current employers particularly in the US, is that they are unwilling to train people much any more.
To allow a person to grow in to the company rather than just hiring them elsewhere with specific criteria.

It means, they use this as a justification to hire from outside the country and lower pay.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
15. A lot of they SAY they do, but they don't, actually.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:03 PM
Jan 2014

Experience plus references always trumps sheepskins. Always.

Unless the prospective employer is an idiot, and who wants to work for an idiot?

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
26. Not so everywhere.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jan 2014

Some jobs have education requirements. When I started my accounting career 35 years ago you needed a BS to get the jobs I did. Now the same jobs require a MBA and CPA to apply. I don't even meet the education qualifications for the job I have. When competing for my job against younger more educated applicants I don't measure up with 35 years experience to their zero years experience.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
46. That's true, I was overly-absolute there.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:49 PM
Jan 2014

Financial Sector, Law, and Medical often do require certain accreditation. Very true.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
56. My mom started out with an AA in the early 80's
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 09:54 PM
Jan 2014

and worked in the business office of a hospital. She worked her way out through on the job training and is still there 30 years later.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
76. That's been my experience in many cases too
Sat Feb 1, 2014, 09:17 PM
Feb 2014

There are of course exceptions, but mostly it seems most places will overlook not having a degree or a lesser degree than they list, so long as you have the experience and references.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
39. Not sure about all industry, but in telecom years/experience trump degrees every time..
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:22 PM
Jan 2014

Kind of funny actually all the people in the industry that have degrees in anything but telecommunications. Of course there really aren't advanced degrees specializing in telecom so that may be part of it as well.

Some folks have four year engineering degrees but that covers a wide range of shit you'll never need for your job.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
3. I completely agree. Skilled trades training is extremely important and a great
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:23 PM
Jan 2014

Alternative to college.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
34. Agree, but waiting for the anti-tradesmen chorous to start...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jan 2014

...any moment now.

There is also another aspect to this issue: The fact that colleges have been steered increasingly away from 'impractical' studies, deprecating anything that can't be used by an employer to make a profit. E.g. college degrees are becoming more and more like skilled trades that are less manual (and burden the students with crushing debt)... sort of like if you wanted to take the skilled trades and create their evil twin while leaving no venues for intellectual pursuits to flourish.

PasadenaTrudy

(3,998 posts)
41. How many
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:28 PM
Jan 2014

engineers do we need? So sick of this push for everyone to study some type of engineering...

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
74. No, they move the factories instead.
Sat Feb 1, 2014, 07:43 PM
Feb 2014

Not to mention, many trades now operated on a contractor basis: minimum wage, non-unionized (especially in the south), with no benefits (you're on the hook for that now), etc.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
77. Yeah ...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 10:57 AM
Feb 2014

I thought about how stupid my comment was (after I wrote it) but just never got back to delete it.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
47. Skilled trades training is extremely important
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:25 PM
Jan 2014

I know!

I love having conversations with people who don't know anything about their world or culture or the arts or books or anything like that. I love to just talk about what they do at work and nothing else.! And lord knows, all the useless sissy stuff NEVER comes in handy....ever.




adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
50. Pounding nails and slinging blocks for a living is a life fullfilling dream most trustfunders never
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 07:52 PM
Jan 2014

get to to experience. I'm all in for them gaining the experience of spinal and joint deterioration before they get to rest on their laurels at the spry age of 70.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
58. Some of the smartest and most interesting people I have ever made fall in the "skilled trades" cat
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:27 AM
Jan 2014

Smart, functional, and competent. Also widely read and studied what interested them.

You are just spouting stereotypes. You don't need to go to college to study art (one guy was fascinated by American painters, and became an expert), or history (one person who became a friend is incredibly learned about European history). Or almost anything else non-scientific. There's this thang called the internet, and it has wide use.

If you like it and you earn enough to have some leisure, you'll pursue it.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
4. Exactly right.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:24 PM
Jan 2014

My landlord went to school on a basketball scholarship and took part in the MBA program. After graduation, he continued the painting business that he started in high school. The business enabled him to buy property, build commercial buildings and prosper.

He admits that the MBA education wasn't all that important to his success.

Painting houses was his path to success.

ForgoTheConsequence

(4,869 posts)
6. True.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:28 PM
Jan 2014

But even some careers like diesel work are requiring a technical degree or certifificate. Back in the day employers were willing to invest in good employees, now they expect them to know everything immediately.

 

Swede Atlanta

(3,596 posts)
7. I couldn't agree more......
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:31 PM
Jan 2014

I graduated high school with a good solid "liberal" education. I could read and write, add/subtract/multiply and divide and had the basics of biology, earth sciences, physics, us and world history and civics under my belt. I could have chosen to go to college or pursue a skilled profession that required technical training, etc. But I had a solid base education from which to operate my life, career aside. I would say in general most of my classmates had the same although I graduated with honors and probably took my studies more seriously than others.

Several years after I had moved on and graduated from college and was working in a job that definitely did not require a college degree, I began to meet recent high school graduates or those with 2-year associate degrees.

What struck me was the lack of knowledge of the most basic things - reading, writing, science, history and social studies, etc. I came to the conclusion that we were failing to prepare our students for life by not ensuring they had at least basic understanding and knowledge of these "core" subjects before we issued high school diplomas.

That led me to believe that perhaps now a 4-year college degree was necessary to finish what K-12 didn't do - establish a baseline level of knowledge of these "life" subjects. But then I met students coming out with 4-year degrees that still lacked these basic skills and knowledge.

So I have given up. I still believe that a good base "liberal" education is essential. All of our students should have a base knowledge of the core subjects so they can interact with the world from an informed perspective and, hopefully, their education leads them to be life-long learners.

But I fear that in the world of smart phones, iPads, video games, etc. that perspective is no longer a focus for most people. And the most important thing is students acquiring skills they can sell on the labor market and hopefully skills that will be valued enough to bring in a good wage.

That can be a 2-year, 4-year or graduate degree or the appropriate technical or other professional training. It does not need to be a college degree.

ebbie15644

(1,216 posts)
20. I think we need to get out of this mindset about extending childhood
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:37 PM
Jan 2014

it's not doing this generation any good. I worked with high school students to help them plan for their future and their expectations of what life will be after they graduate and go to college is is out of proportion to reality. High Schools get "graded" better on how many go to college not on how many complete college. So they are advocating college to students and parents without advocating jobs. I had the most unrealistic job goals and would have to try to get them to major in something else that they could actually get a job in and use the other goal as a "minor" degree. I also know that many of the students that went to "trade" schools did far better at being able to take care of themselves and their families than the ones with 4 year degrees and isn't that the purpose?

 

Swede Atlanta

(3,596 posts)
29. We are aligned.....
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jan 2014

My point is I had seen "higher education" almost as a necessity to complete "basic" education because we are graduating not only high school students but even college graduates without base competency in what I consider the building blocks of life - a "liberal" education.

But I have abandoned that thought because I don't think most students care that when asked they don't know from which country we won our independence, where France is on a map or the name of the current Vice President. It goes to the dumbing down of America which has been an objective of the conservative right for years.

If people don't understand the basics of the scientific method, have learned critical thinking themselves then they are likely to believe and parrot whatever their pastor or tea party congress critter says.

But back to education....when I grew up it wasn't a question of whether I would go to college, it was only a question of where. Neither of my parents had attended college and they were determined to ensure both my sister and I completed a 4 year degree. I graduated with a very "liberal arts" degree that, while incredibly interesting, didn't prepare me for work. I have done well for myself by taking those skills and eventually applying them in an IT environment.

But it is definitely a waste of time and money to pressure all high school students to attend college. They should be doing so because college will give them knowledge and skills that will enable them to pursue a rewarding career. If not it is just an extension of childhood.

I am a firm believer in trade and technical schools. They can be extremely effective in turning out the next generation of mechanics, technicians, IT, medical and other types of professionals.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
8. You know who is great at training programs for skilled trades?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:32 PM
Jan 2014

Union apprenticeships.

Maybe Obama can give a speech in support of unions!

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
55. When I was young I applied for both a union apprenticeship and college
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 09:53 PM
Jan 2014

The apprenticeship was very competitive and I didn't score high enough on the test to make it to the next level. It would have been interesting to see how well I would have done had I made it in. Instead I went to college.

It was an electrical apprenticeship.

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
9. Education is not necessarily for a vocation, knowledge should be free.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:37 PM
Jan 2014

I got a B.S. degree at a Liberal Arts college in Literature because it interested me. I remodeled homes to pay for my education.
Later, I joined the carpenters Union for my career. I never regretted college. It tends to put one on a more level playing field when dealing with life, professionals, turds, etc...
It even helps with being a parent.

The further dumbing down of America...

notemason

(299 posts)
11. Ditto all that
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:53 PM
Jan 2014

It's where I learned critical thinking and was able to sort thru all the backwoods down South prejudice I was exposed to as a child (and to this day).

dotymed

(5,610 posts)
62. Absolutely notemason.
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:21 PM
Jan 2014

Here in the south, all we hear about Unions is what a rip-off they are. If not for the critical thinking skills obtained in college, I would have never found out the truth about Unions.
Of course, I had to move north to join one that paid a living wage.

notemason

(299 posts)
64. Oh yes,
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:56 PM
Jan 2014

remember well how “unions bad” was driven into our souls in the South. I'm in the reddest section of one of the reddest states in the country and those critical thinking skills are the only thing that keep me from falling victim to all this right wing nonsense I'm exposed to consistently. My “Obama” bumper sticker was totally defaced at the church at my mother's funeral. I'm surrounded by it. Thankfully I can find comfort here.

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
10. When I look at resumes, I rarely look at their school.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:48 PM
Jan 2014

That's not experience to me. It's training wheels.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
16. Correct. But people do need good career options even if they don't have a degree.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:17 PM
Jan 2014

So let's quit fetishizing the diploma and get to rebuilding this country.

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
17. a college education is more than just training for a career.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:25 PM
Jan 2014

If nothing else, it prolongs your adolescence and keeps your mind open to explore new ideas, interests, and experiences. Nothing wrong with learning a trade either.

My son is a senior in high school. He is looking at colleges. They are so expensive, but he has a chance to get a scholarship. If get a good enough deal, I want him to go. I'm also be happy if he went into the air force or navy. In either the air force or navy, he could serve his country, learn a trade, and then get out at age 22 and go to school on the GI bill, or put the training he got in the military to use. Worked for me. I enjoyed my time in the navy, enjoyed my time in college, and ultimately used my navy training to have a career in information technology. Never used my degree (BA or MA) in psychology, but learned a lot about myself and human behavior.

I don't think a high school degree and straight to a job is always the best idea. My opinion

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
21. A good base "liberal" education is essential. NOT FOX NEWS
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:38 PM
Jan 2014

Without a liberal education and the ability to read and think, this nation will be like Germany in 1938 with elected Fascists running the Show

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
33. I think were are past the tipping point on that one,
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:11 PM
Jan 2014

better include becoming fluent in a foreign language to that liberal education.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
44. Learning Latin and French worked for me.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jan 2014

Although as time went on, Spanish would probably have been better.

However English is the world language right now.

It's amazing how badly English is currently written, by various graduates of the so called colleges of higher learning.

 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
19. And what might that "good career" be, pray tell?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:37 PM
Jan 2014

I hardly think there are many kids majoring in Art History these days, unless they're the offspring of millionaires.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
25. Oh really, this smacks of hypocricy
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:14 PM
Jan 2014

"Obama says workers might make a better living with skilled trades and manufacturing than an art history degree."

My late 60's college roommate would disagree. Last I heard she is making mega-bucks identifying forgeries.

This is not to denigrate other skilled professions. It is my belief that the President has bought into the right wing idea of "bootstraps", of which he was much indulged.

The one percent has turned the US economy into turmoil. It is planned and calculating, imho. The meme they wish to promote: service work is honourable (which it is, they forget living wages), serfs should not aspire to better economic outcomes).

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
43. Wow ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jan 2014

you really had to reach for that one, huh?

How is stating the (fairly) obvious ... that there is far more demand for a plumber than someone with an Art History degree (despite your late 60's college roommate's experience), buying into some right wing "bootstraps" idea?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
27. I think, even as children become more sexually active at a younger age, that they are less mature
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:23 PM
Jan 2014

than in years past. 25 year olds are often still on the "What do I wanna do with my life?" track. College, now, is the same "finishing school" that High School used to be in the 1900 - 1940-ish era.

PasadenaTrudy

(3,998 posts)
42. I have a friend
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:32 PM
Jan 2014

who is 37, in junior college, and still not sure what she wants to do! She doesn't have a lot of work exp either.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
45. She's moving towards "outlier" territory, but nowadays, people hop from job to job
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:49 PM
Jan 2014

and don't really settle on a trade, or a profession, as easily as people did in years past. It's a different paradigm--people start seriously working later...and the downside is, they'll work until they are older, as well.

I always had a job since I was around 12 years old--you had no money if you didn't earn!

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
28. But Congress is needed...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jan 2014

...and should gets its thumbs out of its ass, or there won't be any good careers that don't involve inheritance.

mainer

(12,034 posts)
31. Been searching desperately for appliance repairmen
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:52 PM
Jan 2014

and they're scarce! The only two I've managed to contact said they'll be away for the week, both on vacation, one in Florida, the other in California. And my old plumber used to spend a month every winter in Florida.

So yes, the trades seem to be doing very well. If you own your own electrical or plumbing business, you'll have no end of work.

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
32. All he's talking about is a federal jobs training review? Where are the actual jobs?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:03 PM
Jan 2014

We need real manufacturing and skilled jobs in this country, not burger flipping reclassified as manufacturing.

Stop subsidizing the outsourcing of our jobs and change tax policy to credit creating real, long-term, living wage jobs.

Oscarmonster13

(209 posts)
35. That's all fine & dandy if you can swing a hammer
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jan 2014

or if you can perform those highly physically demanding jobs...

But I'm seeing crazy job descriptions and qualification requirements for jobs in human resources, reception, and general office management.
Hell, I have over 15 years in my field of expertise, but can't get anything real without a BA
...so I am trying to finish school...and racking up the debt...
and at my age I wonder if it's even worth it sometimes

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
36. No matter what field you go into, you have to learn all your life.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jan 2014

In my case, I got an undergrad degree in a very specialized field in which I worked very few years of my life. But as an undergraduate, I learned to study and learn. So when I worked and studied in other fields, I had the basic skills that I needed to adjust: I knew how to learn. I could learn almost anything thanks to my training in how to learn.

While college may seem to be an extension of childhood, it isn't. That is because the college student is not a child. The college student (most anyway) has the maturity to observe him- or herself. That is one of the things that makes the college experience worth the money. An adult thinks more about what he or she is doing. That is the point of college.

Fact is, technological developments are moving fast. That means that most kids graduating from high school today will, like me, change jobs, change careers, maybe even states or countries a number of times during their working lives. They are going to have be even better prepared than I was to learn new things, to understand science (I don't), to understand languages (we are more international than ever), to understand things that we today can't even imagine will exist.

So, I think a college education is important if a young person wants it, and I think that states should invest in colleges, community colleges, adult education and provide every possible educational resource to the people in their states, not just the traditional college students. That is going to be the key to competing in the world of the future. Young people today should be prepared to learn new things all their lives

As for technical training. It sounds great, but remember, technology is obsolete nowadays almost as soon as it is packaged and placed on the shelf for purchase. So anyone pursuing a career via technical training needs to have, in addition to mechanical skills, excellent reading comprehension skills (to master new written instruction materials and to understand new scientific discoveries). If that person is to make political and social decisions that will affect his economic opportunities, he needs at least a basic understanding of government, business law and history, not just American history.

I know someone who at an early age and thanks to training by a family member was a master at a difficult trade. The industry that employed that trade no longer exists on any economically important level in this country today. His training did not translate into another line of work that would pay what a job in the field of his training paid his father. His life has been difficult because of that. His skill did not translate into a job in today's market.

So, technical skills and trade skills are wonderful as long as they are flexible enough to be marketed in our changing economy. Right now we have a lot of people studying computer science. Seems to me that many of those people will be retraining all their lives. They need most of all to learn how to learn. And that is what college, and it does not have to be a big university, and you don't have to complete a four-year degree, is all about. If you cannot read well and comprehend what you read, you may be left out at some point. It isn't worth the risk. Learning to read more than just the high school level literature is a big advantage in life if for no other reason than that it makes you sound intelligent (whether you are more intelligent than anyone else or not). So taking literature and language courses is well worth anyone's time.

Conversely, I think that children in K-12 in the U.S. need to learn how to work with their hands. We don't teach that to our children very much any more. Sewing, other handcrafts, woodwork or mechanical skills are useful for every child. They too help us prepare to continue to learn all our lives.

Back when there was more work than there were people to do it, K-12 and then off to work made sense. But today, there aren't enough jobs, so young people should study and make themselves as competitive as possible. I think that our children should be able to get an education for less money than they now have to pay. Cut the administrators our of the college administration. Let the faculty work together to run our colleges and universities and save on college costs.

LuckyLib

(6,821 posts)
71. This is right on target. It's not an either/or where tech training or post-secondary liberal arts
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 05:38 PM
Jan 2014

are concerned. It's learning how to learn, and doing so in a variety of settings, while continuing to inform yourself through reading, media, and conversation with others.

PasadenaTrudy

(3,998 posts)
37. Boooo!
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:18 PM
Jan 2014

I majored in art history because it was my love. I wasn't cut for the sciences or business. I did go on to grad school, too. No regrets.

polynomial

(750 posts)
49. Progress is our most important product
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:33 PM
Jan 2014

The college or university system has always been the front of new technology. The real reason is because of the common tax money allocated for research and development via the military industrial complex. Even technology schools that specialize in just electronics.

Face it, the moment in reality that tax money is placed at the disposal of the higher income brackets for decades. Your tax money is not trickled down but “shoved” into special programs that are enlisting special interest people that eventually make profits for them. Face it the Congress and Senate or other connected have siblings with this tax supported enterprise.

With that said it has caught up in the mainstream that something is unfair in this system. Especially all kinds of programs that give special interest copy rights or patents that you and me pay tax on that give very little to no return to the citizen that supply that profiteering. Right now my own research is in the new technology called nano –carbon technology. New computers may very well have transistors that are fabricated with this new technology. Imagine the basic silicon transistor taking a backseat to the news stuff.

From my view, especially my own talent, see the time when the k12 system can actually produce a doctorial type, a young person from the new educational process that is transforming in America. That is a profound statement because that whole idea jumps through the ordinary university system. Better yet the common university system we know today is actually part of the economic engine of the future. The brick and mortar college university system will be the economic engine, the intellectual factory of the future like no other time in humanity. Research and development will be the edge to develop and ascend the human mind and its spirit.


 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
51. True story:
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:03 PM
Jan 2014

Once upon a time back in the day, I was turned down for an IT job at a local regional hospital because I did not have a computer degree. This was at a time when PCs were exploding and colleges were still training their computer science people VAX/IBM mainframes. The job involved installing and maintaining the hospital's new Novell network and supporting the staff.

Shortly after being turned down for that job, I got a job at a local business that taught PC tech and software courses to business folk. My first class on "Intro to PC Networks" included the two people (with CompSci degrees) the hospital had hired instead of me.

They were paying around $2,000 a pop for the course.

I would have sent the HR guy an snarky email, but first I had to teach his new IT staff how email worked.

I would say I am making Obama's point for him, but he underestimates the blind faith MANY companies put in degrees.

madville

(7,413 posts)
52. I received my technical training in the military
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:21 PM
Jan 2014

Was trained as an electronics technician and went back to it after some college and nursing school, been doing it about 15 years. Depending on the job, travel, and overtime it's always been good for 50-80k a year.

I've never had an employer care about education, they all focused on and preffered experience.

Look at federal 0856 electronics technician position grade requirements on USAJOBS. One year of specialized experience is equivalent to a masters degree, three years of specialized experience is equivalent to a PhD, a Bachelors is rarely meaningful for those types of trade positions.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
57. I'm not sure what this has to do with the fact that there are 3 applicants for every job
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 10:50 PM
Jan 2014

at the moment. And without unions, tradespersons will make poverty wages.

CountAllVotes

(20,878 posts)
61. Maybe not "needed" but ...
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:16 PM
Jan 2014

It sure helps a hell of a lot!

What's the matter Pres. Obama? Too many student loans out there ready to go *pop*.

If this is the case then sure, tell young people they do not need a college education and let the dumbing down of America continue.

If you cannot read nor write even if you know a trade, you aren't going to go anywhere.

My illiterate neighbor next door is "living proof" so to speak. He cannot read nor write but don't tell anyone as he might decide he can fix the wiring in your house. He sits around all day doing nothing being he knows nothing due to his lack of education.

This is not good news. This frankly sickens me.

PasadenaTrudy

(3,998 posts)
67. Uneducated people
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:05 PM
Jan 2014

tend to not be curious about the world. I have a few friends like that and it is impossible to have much of a conversation with them. They have no knowledge of history and context. Frustrating.

CountAllVotes

(20,878 posts)
68. This guy is quite the idiot
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:19 PM
Jan 2014

Frankly, even though he is my neighbor, I have little at all to do with him.

He has "other agendas" in the very small world in which he lives; an illiterate world filled with idiocy. It suits him just fine I guess.

Sad as hell really. He is a man in his late 40s. It is never too late to learn! NEVER!!!!!



yurbud

(39,405 posts)
70. he's doing a lot to prove my suspicion that our only choice in elections is
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 05:08 PM
Jan 2014

corporate rule with or without nuts.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
73. This is no longer true.
Sat Feb 1, 2014, 07:41 PM
Feb 2014

Operative word being "good."

It would be true if we still had unions worth a damn. Or enough people unionized, really.

Training programs are not going to help when GE suddenly decides to relocate to China, because of YOUR Free Trade agreements, Mr. President.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
75. objectively that is true. There are a number of skilled occupations that pay a lot better than
Sat Feb 1, 2014, 07:56 PM
Feb 2014

what I make and what many people with college degrees make - skilled occupations that do not require a four year degree. I do not know why this statement is controversial.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
78. "... human beings need bread and roses"
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 12:15 PM
Feb 2014

It bothers me that he devalued arts education to make the point about studying and funding job training programs. Both (and more) are needed in our society and should be encouraged, rather than posing them as a choice of one or another.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/31/obama-becomes-latest-politician-criticize-liberal-arts-discipline

Then there is the fact that arts programs in American higher education (admittedly not identical to art history) -- fearful of the stereotype that they provide job training for Starbucks jobs -- have worked to study employment outcomes of their graduates. Their findings: Graduates of arts programs, while not all employed in the arts, are generally employed and have high levels of job satisfaction, using their arts knowledge in a range of ways. And then there is the study released just last week by the Association of American Colleges and Universities about the long-term success of liberal arts graduates in the world of work.
Carol Geary Schneider, president of the Association of American Colleges and Universities, said via email that she found the president's rhetoric disappointing. "In recent years, we've sunk into a 'what's in it for me' approach to learning, making career earnings the litmus test both for college and for different majors," she said. "The president speaks well in principle about our responsibilities to one another in a democratic society.
"But he seems to have forgotten that college can build our desire and capacity to make a better world, not just better technologies. It was depressing to hear President Obama describe college mainly as vocational and/or technical training in the State of the Union address, and it's even worse to have him casually dismiss one of the liberal arts -- or even the whole idea of baccalaureate study -- because you can earn good enough money in a skilled trade. The fact of the matter is that human beings need bread and roses -- and people who help make things do it better, as Steve Jobs said and demonstrated repeatedly, when they study both the arts and technology."
Linda Downs, executive director of the College Art Association, posted a reaction on the group's blog, offering support for any federal effort to promote access for more people to higher education. However, the blog post went on to say: "When these measures are made by cutting back on, denigrating or eliminating humanities disciplines such as art history, then America’s future generations will be discouraged from taking advantage of the values, critical and decisive thinking and creative problem solving offered by the humanities. It is worth remembering that many of the nation’s most important innovators, in fields including high technology, business, and even military service, have degrees in the humanities."



As JFK said:

http://arts.gov/about/kennedy

If sometimes our great artists have been the most critical of our society, it is because their sensitivity and their concern for justice, which must motivate any true artist, makes him aware that our Nation falls short of its highest potential. I see little of more importance to the future of our country and our civilization than full recognition of the place of the artist.

If art is to nourish the roots of our culture, society must set the artist free to follow his vision wherever it takes him. We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda; it is a form of truth. And as Mr. MacLeish once remarked of poets, there is nothing worse for our trade than to be in style. In free society art is not a weapon and it does not belong to the spheres of polemic and ideology. Artists are not engineers of the soul. It may be different elsewhere. But democratic society--in it, the highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may. In serving his vision of the truth, the artist best serves his nation. And the nation which disdains the mission of art invites the fate of Robert Frost's hired man, the fate of having "nothing to look backward to with pride, and nothing to look forward to with hope."

I look forward to a great future for America, a future in which our country will match its military strength with our moral restraint, its wealth with our wisdom, its power with our purpose. I look forward to an America which will not be afraid of grace and beauty, which will protect the beauty of our natural environment, which will preserve the great old American houses and squares and parks of our national past, and which will build handsome and balanced cities for our future.

I look forward to an America which will reward achievement in the arts as we reward achievement in business or statecraft. I look forward to an America which will steadily raise the standards of artistic accomplishment and which will steadily enlarge cultural opportunities for all of our citizens. And I look forward to an America which commands respect throughout the world not only for its strength but for its civilization as well. And I look forward to a world which will be safe not only for democracy and diversity but also for personal distinction.



NoodleyAppendage

(4,619 posts)
79. Meanwhile India and China are pushing their citizens to get advanced degrees in the sciences...
Sun Feb 2, 2014, 02:27 PM
Feb 2014

…as someone who actively works in the health and medical fields and carries a research portfolio, I can say with certainty that there is much more of a focus on the sciences and medical training among my Indian and Chinese trainees than US trainees. There isn't a week that goes by where I don't receive a "cold call" email from someone over in Asia sending me their CV and wanting to work in my lab. Rarely do I receive the same from US students.

Why are we (and our President) setting the bar so low for our citizenry? I understand that not everyone can aspire to be (or wants to be) a doctor or advanced degree scientist, but by putting emphasis on technical school training aren't we running the risk of training people for jobs that may be obsolete in 20-30 years. Tying your livelihood to a single trade or skill is self-limiting with respect to the ability to weather economic and manufacturing changes. Just ask those US workers who trained in the steel or textile trades.

J

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