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alp227

(32,020 posts)
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 05:55 PM Feb 2014

Swiss immigration: 50.3% back quotas, final results show

Source: BBC

Swiss voters have narrowly backed a referendum proposal to bring back strict quotas for immigration from European Union countries.

Final results showed 50.3% voted in favour. The vote invalidates the Swiss-EU agreement on freedom of movement.

Fiercely independent Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but has adopted large sections of EU policy.

Brussels said it regretted the outcome of the vote and would examine its implications.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597

33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Swiss immigration: 50.3% back quotas, final results show (Original Post) alp227 Feb 2014 OP
It's ridiculously expensive to live in Switzerland sybylla Feb 2014 #1
I had a friend from college who moved his family to Zurich for his job. He transferred back as Chakab Feb 2014 #2
My nephew and his wife live and works there dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #3
"... but clean and nice" Helen Borg Feb 2014 #4
Pretty good actually... shaayecanaan Feb 2014 #5
I drove all the way through it in 1968 dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #6
A quarter of people living in Switzerland were born outside it muriel_volestrangler Feb 2014 #7
I'm not from there, but I'm there a lot, have Swiss friends and speak all 3 of their major languages DFW Feb 2014 #9
Big win for the "right-wing Swiss People's Party". 400,000 Swiss living and working in Europe pampango Feb 2014 #8
Small win for that party, bigger win for the Swiss living at home DFW Feb 2014 #10
It will be interesting to see the breakdown of how liberals and conservatives voted on this. pampango Feb 2014 #11
The divisions don't don't seem to have been along those lines. dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #12
"European right-wing hails Swiss vote to curb immigration" pampango Feb 2014 #13
That doesn't seem to match with the votes by canton Yo_Mama Feb 2014 #15
Yes I reversed the French and Italian cantons by accident. dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #17
their right wing, we would consider flaming liberals RedstDem Feb 2014 #26
True with many European conservative parties but not Swiss People's Party. It is classic right-wing. pampango Feb 2014 #29
thanks for the brush up on ideology RedstDem Feb 2014 #32
Nice post. Can't argue with any of that. pampango Feb 2014 #33
I'm just surprised the vote was so close Yo_Mama Feb 2014 #14
I have lived and worked in Switzerland BlueMTexpat Feb 2014 #16
Perhaps the higher crime rate for immigrants has something to do with it seveneyes Feb 2014 #18
True, the crime rate is higher BlueMTexpat Feb 2014 #22
Did that not even cause you to think of the reason? Nihil Feb 2014 #25
I believe that one of us is confused. BlueMTexpat Feb 2014 #30
I am heartened that the areas with the most immigrants are not the most anti-immigrant. pampango Feb 2014 #31
Not to speak for those who see a "real problem with immigration in Switzerland" but I think it is pampango Feb 2014 #19
You are correct that the high BlueMTexpat Feb 2014 #21
Regarding German/Italian Swiss... alp227 Feb 2014 #20
Not sure whether that was BlueMTexpat Feb 2014 #23
"... low information voters and resultingly easier manipulation by politicians with an agenda, pampango Feb 2014 #24
doesn't the US already limit immigration? RedstDem Feb 2014 #27
For sure. Our immigration is nothing like Europe's or even Canada's for that matter. pampango Feb 2014 #28

sybylla

(8,509 posts)
1. It's ridiculously expensive to live in Switzerland
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 06:03 PM
Feb 2014

I can't believe they need to stop immigration by any other means.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
2. I had a friend from college who moved his family to Zurich for his job. He transferred back as
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 06:09 PM
Feb 2014

soon as possible. In the three years that he lived there, his supposed "promotion" actually cost him a big chunk of his savings so that he could live in a decent sized flat. He ended up leave the company because they went back on their agreement to properly compensate him for his living expenses.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
3. My nephew and his wife live and works there
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 06:20 PM
Feb 2014

Both are chartered accountants. They love it there and will stay as long as possible - expensive but clean and nice. My brother trips to and fro skiing with his son.

On the subject of the OP I don't blame the Swiss who have a total population only the size of greater London : c. 8 million.

The vote was partly biased by the German cantons who are indifferent to the subject. They would be : Germany itself simply deports immigrants who are not able to fully fund themselves.

Helen Borg

(3,963 posts)
4. "... but clean and nice"
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:22 PM
Feb 2014

Yup, no dirty immigrants there... What a place to be Plus, what does that little country have to offer to the rest of the world, other than UBS-type banks that facilitate tax evasion? I've only been there a couple of times though. Is there anyone from Switzerland who can say more about how things really are there?

shaayecanaan

(6,068 posts)
5. Pretty good actually...
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:46 PM
Feb 2014

Plus, what does that little country have to offer to the rest of the world, other than UBS-type banks that facilitate tax evasion?


Quite a bit, apparently:-



Export profile:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tree_map_export_che_all_show_2010_SITC4.svg

One of the very few countries in Europe to have kept most of its manufacturing base.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
6. I drove all the way through it in 1968
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:49 PM
Feb 2014

and went skiing there in 1984. Great place. The majority of their population deciding on an issue is known as democracy.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,311 posts)
7. A quarter of people living in Switzerland were born outside it
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 08:12 PM
Feb 2014
At the end of 2010, Switzerland's permanent resident population stood at 7,870,100 inhabitants, i.e. a rise of 84,300 persons compared with 2009. This 1.1% increase is comparable to those of the years 2007 and 2009. A quarter of the people living in Switzerland were born abroad and immigrated to our country.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/22/press.html?pressID=7460


That's fairly high - more than the US, for instance, which was 40 million out of 308 million in 2010: http://www.census.gov/newsroom/cspan/foreignbornpop/20120511_cspan_foreignbornpop_slides.pdf

DFW

(54,369 posts)
9. I'm not from there, but I'm there a lot, have Swiss friends and speak all 3 of their major languages
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 09:09 PM
Feb 2014

None of my Swiss friends are in Banking, so I can't speak for that. And there are LOTS of dirty immigrants there--now, anyway. That's why the vote turned out the way it did. And UBS has kicked out most foreigners (and just about ALL non-resident US citizens and companies) due to cumbersome paperwork now required by the US government.

Since Switzerland joined Schengen, the treaty that allows open borders with all neighboring countries (since all are Schengen members), the once safe streets of Geneva are now teeming with pickpockets (and worse) from the Balkans. Home break-ins, sometimes violent, are now common, where they were virtually unheard-of before joining Schengen. As the whole country used to be an island of tranquility, their law enforcement has been overwhelmed, only worsening anti-foreigner sentiment. A guy I know who married a Swiss woman and moved from California to Geneva, woke up one night with a pistol to his head and gruffly delivered instructions (not in French) to hand over everything of value or else. This didn't happen fifteen years ago.

It's a relatively tiny country. You can train through it from the German border in the north to the Italian border to the south in less than four hours. It's also very expensive because they haven't surrendered their currency, the Swiss Franc, to the corrupt suits and ties in Brussels who manipulate the euro for the convenience of about fifteen large multinational companies instead of for the good of the half billion people who live in Europe.

I don't blame the Swiss one bit for voting the way they did. If I had been Swiss, I would have voted the same way.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
8. Big win for the "right-wing Swiss People's Party". 400,000 Swiss living and working in Europe
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 09:07 PM
Feb 2014

may have their status in those countries reevaluated now. This should empower the right wing parties in other European countries to push their anti-immigrant agendas even harder. Sad day for Europe.

DFW

(54,369 posts)
10. Small win for that party, bigger win for the Swiss living at home
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 09:18 PM
Feb 2014

The Swiss don't like extremists of any stripe. But they don't like being forced to accept a change on their relatively stable and safe way of life, either. Swiss citizens in other countries don't tend to be pickpockets or members of violent organized crime rings. Pickpockets and members of violent of organized crime rings inside Switzerland don't tend to be Swiss either. There is a reason the Swiss voted the way they did.

Even joining Schengen was more a nod to big companies looking to cash in on the cheap labor that Schengen afforded the bigger EU countries--that not coincidentally put hundreds of thousands of Germans and French out of work. The Swiss weren't giving a nod to a right wing party per se, The right wing party was getting a free ride on this one issue. The people were voting to say that the interests of a few big conglomerates should not override the interests of the population at large.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
11. It will be interesting to see the breakdown of how liberals and conservatives voted on this.
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 10:00 PM
Feb 2014
The largest cities, Zurich and Basel, rejected the vote, and smaller cities and rural areas supported it.

The Swiss People’s Party has been particularly skillful at using such popular votes to push for immigration controls in recent years.

“It is far more than a political slap in the face,” the left-leaning newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote in an editorial published on its website after the result was announced. “The Yes to the ‘Massive Immigration Initiative’ is a censure that is comparable to No to the European Economic Area.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/10/world/europe/swiss-voters-narrowly-approve-curbs-on-immigration.html

The Social Democratic Party (SP) is the biggest pro-European party in Switzerland and supports Swiss membership of the European Union, unlike most other Swiss parties and is the only party in Switzerland which wants the defeat of capitalism.

The SP also rejects strengthening restrictions on asylum seekers and immigrants. Thus, it supports the integration of immigrants by which the immigrants are assigned to immigration procedures immediately after entering the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Switzerland

It seems to me that liberals in Switzerland tend to support immigration, while conservatives tend to oppose it. This is true in most countries. In Switzerland the left-wing, anti-capitalist party supports immigration, while the right-wing parties favor immigration restrictions.

In this vote the big cities rejected immigration restrictions, while rural areas voted in favor. It will be interesting to see the liberal/conservative breakdown of the vote.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
12. The divisions don't don't seem to have been along those lines.
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 06:13 AM
Feb 2014

They were broken down almost by language with French speaking areas largely in support of the motion, Italian areas against and German 50/50.

If it was political it would be as good as saying the the French cantons are conservative and the Italian ones liberal.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
13. "European right-wing hails Swiss vote to curb immigration"
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 06:54 AM
Feb 2014
Right-wing parties in Europe hailed Swiss voters for approving curbs Sunday on EU immigration ...

Nigel Farage, the head of the UK Independence Party, Britain's main eurosceptic party, said Switzerland had stood up to "bullying" from unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. "This is wonderful news for national sovereignty and freedom lovers throughout Europe," said Farage, who is a member of the European parliament (MEP).

France's extreme right National Front party hailed "the Swiss people's lucidity" in a statement, calling for France to likewise stop "mass immigration".

Austria's far-right FPO party said that country would vote the same way given the chance, while Italy's populist Northern League demanded a similar referendum there.

http://www.expatica.com/ch/news/swiss-news/european-right-wing-hails-swiss-vote-to-curb-immigration_284840.html

A right-wing party (the Swiss Peoples Party) was the force behind the referendum. Right-wing parties across Europe are celebrating its success and looking to replicate it in their own countries.

I have not read of any positive reactions from liberal politicians, groups, parties or newspapers to the outcome of the Swiss vote. Perhaps there are some.

If the liberal/conservative split on the immigration referendum among Swiss voters does not reflect the split between conservative sponsorship of the referendum and celebration of its success, I will be surprised. It will be an interesting split to see.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
15. That doesn't seem to match with the votes by canton
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:18 PM
Feb 2014

Ticino (Tessin) seems to have backed the proposal most strongly, and isn't that the most "Italian" canton?

Just looking at the Spiegel map
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/karte-zur-schweizer-volksinitiative-gegen-masseneinwanderung-a-952570.html

And then there's this article:
http://www.thelocal.ch/20140209/shock-vote-catches-establishment-by-surprise

A majority in each of the French-speaking cantons opposed the quotas, while most German-speaking cantons backed the initiative, along with Ticino, the Italian-speaking canton, where 68 percent voted yes.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
29. True with many European conservative parties but not Swiss People's Party. It is classic right-wing.
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 11:17 AM
Feb 2014

that pushed this referendum.

The SVP adheres to national conservatism, aiming at the preservation of Switzerland's political sovereignty and a conservative society. Furthermore, the party promotes the principle of individual responsibility and is skeptical toward any expansion of governmental services. This stance is most evident in the rejection of an accession of Switzerland to the European Union and the rejection of increases in government spending on social welfare and education.

The emphasis of the party's policies lie in foreign policy, immigration and homeland security policy as well as tax and social welfare policy. Among political opponents, the SVP has gained a reputation as a party that maintains a hard-line stance.

Foreign policy

In its foreign policy the SVP opposes increased involvement of Switzerland in intergovernmental and especially supranational organisations, including the UN, EEA, EU, Schengen and Dublin treaties, and closer ties with NATO. The party stands for a strict neutrality of the country and the preservation of the strong role of the Swiss army as the institution responsible for national defense. The army shall remain a militia force and should never become involved in interventions abroad.

Immigration

In its immigration policy the party commits itself to make asylum laws stricter and to reduce immigration. The SVP warns of immigration into the social welfare system and criticises the high proportion of foreigners among the public insurance benefit recipients and other social welfare programs. According to the opinion of the party, such benefits amount to waste of taxpayers' money. Numerous SVP members have shown themselves to be critical of Islam by having participated in the minaret controversy, during which they pushed for an initiative to ban the construction of minarets. In November 2009 this ban won the majority vote (57.5%) and became an amendment to the Swiss Constitution. However, the four existing minarets are not affected by the new legislation.

Another key concern of the SVP is what it alleges is an increasing influence of the judiciary on politics. According to the SVP, this influence, especially through international law, increasingly puts the Swiss direct democracy in question. Public law which is legitimate by direct democracy standards should be agreed upon by the federal court. The international law, which according to the SVP is not democratically legitimate, shall always be subordinate to the Swiss law. The SVP also criticises the judiciary as undemocratic because the courts have made decisions against the will of the majority. According to the SVP, the racism penalty and anti-racism commission should be abolished in the interest of freedom of speech.

Economy

The SVP supports supply-side economics. Thus it is a proponent of lower taxes and is against deficit spending. The SVP is in a dilemma in terms of its agricultural policy since, in consideration of it being the most popular party among farmers, it cannot reduce agricultural subsidies or curtail the current system of direct payments to farmers. The freedom of movement agreements with the EU and its extension toward new member states of the EU is looked at sceptically by the SVP and is associated with more immigration.

Environment

In terms of the environment, transportation and energy policy the SVP opposes governmental measures for environmental protection. Therefore, in its transportation policy the party endorses the expansion of the Swiss motorway network and is against the preference of public transportation over individual transportation.

Social policy

In social welfare policy the SVP rejects expansion of the welfare state, and stands for a conservative society. It opposes the public financing of maternity leave and nursery schools. The SVP is skeptical toward governmental support of an equalisation of both genders, and the SVP has the smallest proportion of women among parties represented in the Federal Assembly of Switzerland. In its education policy, it opposes tendencies to shift the responsibility of the upbringing of children from families to public institutions. The party claims an excessive influence of anti-authoritarian ideas originating from the protests of 1968. In general, the party supports strengthening crime prevention measures against social crimes and, especially in the areas of social welfare policy and education policy, a return to meritocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_People%27s_Party
 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
32. thanks for the brush up on ideology
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 01:40 PM
Feb 2014

I hold dual citizenship, to the USA and Die Schweiz.
so I am a bit familiar with the different parties, SVP are not my favorites by a long shot.

but, you know.. sometimes people from other countries hold opinions you might find unacceptable, but it's really none of "our" business.
you don't understand the issues the way they do until you walk in their shoes.

voting to stop open borders with E.U. is not the same as the USA closing it's borders to Canada.
and since they're not part of the E.U., it was probably stupid to do that in the first place.

they voted on it, that position won, maybe it will be that way forever, or maybe it will change again, either way, it's democracy.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
33. Nice post. Can't argue with any of that.
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 01:50 PM
Feb 2014

Many us spend time commenting on the policies of other countries when it "really none of 'our' business".

... sometimes people from other countries hold opinions you might find unacceptable, but it's really none of "our" business.

Very true, although it is hard sometimes to not offer an opinion on the actions of other countries if you feel strongly about them, whether it concerns Switzerland, Russia, China, Israel or any other country.

I believe that the Swiss have the right to determine its immigration policy. If they want out of Schengen, then they should be allowed to leave. I believe the Swiss government will proceed to implement this decision to limit immigration.

I may not agree with every decision that every democracy makes, but I respect the right of people to make those decisions. As you said "either way, it's democracy."

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
14. I'm just surprised the vote was so close
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 01:30 PM
Feb 2014

There are local problems with immigrants, and they are real.

Plus, Switzerland is quite a small country in existing population, about the size of NY, and it has a large number of immigrants already, so limiting immigration somewhat kind of makes sense.

And then too, when you look at initiatives such as the basic stipend for all legal residents, it appears that the mood of the residents is to try to keep living standards up, but that conflicts with open immigration.

It is going to set off a shitfight in the EU, though. Major coverage of this one in Speigel this morning (German language version).

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
16. I have lived and worked in Switzerland
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 02:18 PM
Feb 2014

for the past 20 years. But I live in la Suisse romande (Francophone Switzerland), near Geneva. Geneva voted against the anti-immigration initiative, as did all of the French-speaking cantons. Basel and Zurich also voted against it. It was a narrow "win" for the xenophobes, who are mostly found in the German and Italian-speaking cantons and in rural areas.

Twenty per cent of current residents in Switzerland are non-Swiss and are, for the most part, highly educated and highly skilled. While I see that some responders to this post have said that there is a "real problem" with immigration in Switzerland, I am not quite sure what they are talking about. I would ask them please to elaborate with facts and statistics rather than with anecdotal rumors or general smears. Actually, Switzerland has proportionally taken in larger numbers of asylum seekers from the ME and other conflicts than the US has.

Can you imagine the reaction from our own US "Taliban" if 20 per cent of residents of the US were not US citizens? They had fits because a Coke commercial actually used languages other than English ... heads would explode everywhere.

Yes, there is a very high standard of living here and yes, that standard does not come cheaply, which is one reason why, although I am now "officially" retired, I also teach university courses as an adjunct professor to help make ends meet. Yes, the freedom of movement required by the EU has caused angst among some Swiss, especially with large numbers of comparatively impoverished immigrants from Eastern Europe. But things have gradually been working out and will continue to do so despite this setback.

My Swiss students say that they are mortified and "embarrassed" by this outcome, just as they were by the outcome of the anti-minaret initiative that passed a couple years back. Practically speaking, the xenophobes have all loved benefits of EU proximity through the various bilateral agreements that Switzerland has concluded with the EU. By passing this initiative, they may find literally that they have cut off their noses to spite their faces because those bilaterals may all now be in jeopardy.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
18. Perhaps the higher crime rate for immigrants has something to do with it
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 03:26 PM
Feb 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The crime rate among resident foreigners ("immigrant criminality&quot is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003).[7] In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time). In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding delinquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Ausländerkriminalität&quot , which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens.

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
22. True, the crime rate is higher
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:46 AM
Feb 2014

but it is precisely those areas where the majority of immigrants are that voted against the anti-immigration measure. Unfortunately, the crime statistics are used to inflame those in areas that aren't even impacted.

Frankly, a higher crime rate is attributable to non-resident foreigners, especially in border areas close to France. The majority of house break-ins, burglaries, petty theft and shoplifting result from cross-border gangs. Having been victim to a break-in burglary in 1995 by one such, I can verify that these groups operated quite efficiently even before the EU's Open Borders policy came into effect.

Where I live, the local and cantonal police authorities have done a lot to raise consciousness among everyone about such problems and the system has worked quite efficiently to reduce crime rates in the area. It also helps that neighbors actually pay attention to one another.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
25. Did that not even cause you to think of the reason?
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 08:58 AM
Feb 2014

> it is precisely those areas where the majority of immigrants are that voted
> against the anti-immigration measure.

Any anti-immigration measure will directly affect said majority of immigrants
(via family and/or marital ties) and yet you imply that they would vote in favour
of their own disadvantage?



I wish the UK government had a fraction of the spine of the Swiss ...

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
30. I believe that one of us is confused.
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 11:21 AM
Feb 2014

Either by your interpretation of what I said/meant to say or by my interpretation of what you said.

In fact, those who voted FOR this anti-immigration measure actually did vote against their own interests, whatever their rationale. I am not implying that; I am stating it. I am not alone in believing this. There is a LOT of angst here right now and the federal government in Bern will likely water down the most draconian effects of the vote. The Swiss are, after all, extremely pragmatic people.

When a measure meets the approval of Marine Le Pen and the RW generally, it is NOT a good thing, IMO. OK, she's not Swiss, but she loves things like this.

What I said was that, in spite of the marginally higher crime rate, people in French-speaking Switzerland and urban areas - where most non-Swiss are actually located - did not support the anti-immigration measure. That is heartening. They are very PRO-immigration. Much of the local economy is based on the EU's Free Movement policy and that is why it has literally been booming around here. Anyone with half a brain can see that. .

I don't believe that the situation in the UK is quite the same as it is in Switzerland. But are you saying that you want the UK to have a MORE restrictive immigration policy than it does now? I don't live there so I can't speak to that. But generally, I believe that anything that promotes intercultural exchange and understanding is a plus.



pampango

(24,692 posts)
31. I am heartened that the areas with the most immigrants are not the most anti-immigrant.
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
Feb 2014

One would think if immigrants were an evil force in Switzerland, the areas with the most immigrants would harbor the most anti-immigrant sentiment. The opposite is true. The areas with the least immigrants harbor the most anti-immigrant sentiment.

Swiss citizenship laws have been widely debated over recent years. In comparison to other nationality laws, access to Swiss citizenship is relatively narrow and restricted ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_nationality_law#Naturalization

I seriously doubt, absent evidence to the contrary, that there are enough Swiss voters who favor immigration for "family and/or marital ties" to significantly impact a national referendum. I suspect there are many more Swiss voters in high immigration areas that are merely comfortable with immigrants and recognize their contributions to Switzerland's economy and diversity.

I wish the UK government had a fraction of the spine of the Swiss ...

If UKIP and the more right wing Conservative party backbenchers get their way, the UK will indeed show some of that "spine".

pampango

(24,692 posts)
19. Not to speak for those who see a "real problem with immigration in Switzerland" but I think it is
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 03:41 PM
Feb 2014

just the number of immigrants as a percentage of the population.

You are right that "our own US "Taliban" if 20 per cent of residents of the US were not US citizens". It is not just our "Taliban" that has a problem with immigration, unfortunately. I think there are quite a few on the left who view immigration as a negative thing in terms of its effect on jobs, wages and the economy. They project this discomfort onto events in Switzerland and

Even though Switzerland is in the top 10 wealthiest countries in the world and has an unemployment rate of 3.5%, just the presence of that many immigrants is viewed negatively even by some on the left. One can more easily understand, if not accept, a preoccupation with the perceived effects of immigration if there is a lot of poverty and unemployment in a country. That is not the case in Switzerland.

By passing this initiative, they may find literally that they have cut off their noses to spite their faces because those bilaterals may all now be in jeopardy.

Well said. However, if conservatives in Switzerland are the same as conservatives in the US they will continue to vote their fears and emotions (and continue to 'cut off their noses to spite their faces') long into the future. They are unlikely to ever take a step back and look at the benefits that liberals understand exist from membership in a continent-wide area of freedom of movement.

I find it heartening that the areas in Switzerland with the highest percentages of immigrants were the most opposed to limiting it, while the regions with the least immigrants (largely rural areas) were the most likely to vote to restrict immigration. I would not be surprised if the reaction of your students is not typical and that the young are more open to immigration and the older folks more afraid of it.

Thanks for the insightful post.

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
21. You are correct that the high
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:32 AM
Feb 2014

number of non-Swiss is a concern to many, although the majority of those in French-speaking and urban areas consider the intermingling of cultures a real plus and are proud of it. As you note, the areas most impacted are in favor of continuing the policy as it is. Even the majority of the so-called "People's Party" (UDC) who were persuasive about this vote are still not quite as hard-line as our home-grown US radical RW. They are, for the most part, more educated and "cosmopolitan."

But of the minority, there are indeed those who are very bit as bad, if not worse, than our own.

Oh yes, I am so proud of the young Swiss that I have known, just as I am proud of so many younger Americans! They are indeed our hope for the future. If they will only learn from our own mistakes ...!

Thanks for your comments!



alp227

(32,020 posts)
20. Regarding German/Italian Swiss...
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 09:54 PM
Feb 2014

I wonder if their votes reflect the xenophobia of their ancestral home countries? I have heard about bigotry against black people in Italy and Germany... sorry to Godwin this thread...

BlueMTexpat

(15,368 posts)
23. Not sure whether that was
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 06:48 AM
Feb 2014

a "Godwin" although some might infer such!

But I believe that in Switzerland it is less that than low information voters and resultingly easier manipulation by politicians with an agenda, just as it is everywhere else.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
24. "... low information voters and resultingly easier manipulation by politicians with an agenda,
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 07:57 AM
Feb 2014

just as it is everywhere else." Sad, but not surprising, to see that is an international phenomenon, not just an American one.

If the US had a national referendum on restricting immigration, I wonder what the vote would be. Even though the US has nothing like the immigration that Switzerland has, I would not be surprised if such a referendum did not pass by a larger margin than the Swiss one.

The right certainly seems to be better at appealing to and motivating low information voters than the left is. I suppose that by definition the use of fear and emotion is more effective with "low information" voters than is information (facts, science, studies, research, etc.).

 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
27. doesn't the US already limit immigration?
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 09:34 AM
Feb 2014

I think referring to the people that voted in favor as 'low information voters" is a bit insulting.
perhaps the low information voters were voting "no".

pampango

(24,692 posts)
28. For sure. Our immigration is nothing like Europe's or even Canada's for that matter.
Tue Feb 11, 2014, 11:06 AM
Feb 2014

My thought was about what would happen if, hypothetically, we had a referendum that further limited immigration from what it is today.

I think referring to the people that voted in favor as 'low information voters" is a bit insulting.
perhaps the low information voters were voting "no".

I can't speak for BlueMTexpat. That was his/her analysis. The whole referendum on immigration in Switzerland was pushed by the right-wing populist party, the Swiss People's Party and rural areas with relatively few immigrants voted for the immigration restrictions while the urban areas with lots of immigrants voted against it. (Obviously the immigrants themselves did not vote. Swiss citizenship rules are very strict.)

"Rural right-wing populists" sounds a lot like our tea party, FOX-watching types who are opposed to immigration and would probably vote to restrict it further if they could. I think our tea party voters tend to be 'low information voters' so I see the possible connection to what BlueMTexpat was posting about rural Swiss voters.

The Decline of the Established Anti-Immigrant Organizations and the Rise of Tea Party Nativism details a new turn by anti-immigrant activists towards the Tea Party movement.

New data is made available for the first time on two different trends: a fall in the membership and finances of established organizations and coalitions such as the Minutemen, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (the FAIR in the report's title), and the Federal Immigration Reform and Enforcement Coalition; and a simultaneous increase in the amount of anti-immigrant activism by Tea Party groups. Existing opinion polling information on the anti-immigrant sentiments of Tea Party supporters is referenced. The 55-page report includes endnotes and an appendix listing more than one hundred local anti-immigrant leaders who have enlisted in or spoken at events of the Tea Parties.

"Immigrant rights advocates need to take notice of these new developments," cautioned Melinda Lewis, a policy consultant for El Centro, a social service agency in Kansas City, Kansas. "All the work we have done to expose the Tanton Network and the nativist establishment will be wasted if we can't pivot to neutralize the anti-immigrant activity coming from the Tea Parties."

http://www.irehr.org/component/k2/item/388-media-release-new-report-details-alarming-new-trends-in-anti-immigrant-activity-in-the-tea-party

There are a lot of similarities between right-wing populist parties and voters in Switzerland and in the US. If it becomes available it will be interesting to see the liberal/conservative split on voting for/against the referendum. I think urban voters tend to be more liberal than rural ones, but we won't know for sure until the information is released in Switzerland.
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