Obama: Figure out how to satisfy US water needs

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By DARLENE SUPERVILLE

PALM SPRINGS, Calif. (AP) - President Barack Obama drew a link between climate change and California's drought, and said the U.S. must do a better job of figuring out how to make sure everyone's water needs are satisfied.

On a tour of central California on Friday, Obama warned that weather-related disasters will only get worse.

"We can't think of this simply as a zero-sum game. It can't just be a matter of there's going to be less and less water so I'm going to grab more and more of a shrinking share of water," Obama said after touring part of a farm that is suffering under the state's worst drought in more than 100 years.

"Instead what we have to do is all come together and figure out how we all are going to make sure that agricultural needs, urban needs, industrial needs, environmental and conservation concerns are all addressed," he said.

FULL story at link.



Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140215/DABVNUB00.html

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A sercret service agent looks over a farm field as President Barack Obama speaks to the media on California's drought situation Friday, Feb. 14, 2014 in Los Banos, Calif. Farmers in California's drought-stricken Central Valley said the financial assistance President Barack Obama delivered on his visit Friday does not get to the heart of California's long-term water problems. (AP Photo/Los Angeles Times, Wally Skalij, Pool)

[jimmydwight]

1. A new Pipeline from the Great Lakes

Should do it. Much better use than the XL Pipeline from Canada

[madrchsod]

8. the great lakes water levels are dropping.

plus we share the largest deepest lake with canada

[liberalmike27]

16. Two way system

I've been suggesting for the longest time, we need a nationwide link of huge water resources, that can flow either way, too and from various places that might or might not, from one year or the other have more or less water resources. It'd be for piping water than can be purified to drinking water, but in the still rough state.

It would be a good jobs' program as well.

[NickB79]

37. We'd only need to build like 100 new nuclear reactors

To move the water across mountain ranges and such.

People have no fucking idea how energy-intensive it is to move water uphill, or how MUCH water you'd need to move to supply cities, farms, industry, etc.

[magical thyme]

13. absolutely not.

We need to stop playing god with our environment. It is far more complex an issue than just taking water from one place and moving it to another. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not an answer and will just impoverish Peter while Paul continues to squander whatever.

We need to work with the environment we've got and quit trying to conquer it. That means living where climates are livable; in dry, desert climates xeroscaping, not lawns, and no swimming pools, and eliminating other waste; not poisoning water with fracking chemicals, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't see it happening. We really haven't progressed much (or at all) since Easter Island. Just doing it at a planetary level.

[JDPriestly]

17. I have succulents in my front yard. But we need trees, and trees take water, lots of water.

We need a moratorium on new construction in Los Angeles.

Closing swimming pools is not so easy because the pools have to be somehow filled in. A house near us had a pool at one time. They took it out and just left a huge, dangerous hole. Someone covered it with planks, but filling it with earth will take a very long, long time. They have made some progress, but it is very slow. Meanwhile you would not want a small child to live in that house.

Besides, we have a population of millions here in Los Angeles. And we cannot live without water. So Obama's ideas are the right ones.

I grow vegetables but in pots. That way I conserve water. I'm not watering grass. We do need trees, however. Our house is not air conditioned. We rely on our trees to give us shade and cool our house in the summer.

This winter the temperatures have mostly been in the 70s and 80s. We always have a few summery days in winter, but this winter is the warmest I have seen here in the many years I have lived here. I am worried about what summer will be like.

I spoke to someone from the Philippines the other day. He said that it was unusually cold there.

Historically, California goes through periods of drought. But considering what is happening elsewhere in the world and conditioned on what scientists say about it, it looks and feels to me like this is climate change. The streams that direct the weather have gone whacko.

[upaloopa]

53. Yeah just close down Los Angeles and move everyone to

....... crickets

[magical thyme]

57. Desalinization is one option. People moving away is another.

Crickets? Seriously, because I didn't respond in your time frame? How long was it before you responded to this post?

Much as I hate both my job, and much as I wish I could retire yesterday, I can't. I was at work.

[Xithras]

14. Desalinization would be far more energy efficient.

The amount of energy needed to vertically lift the water over the continental divide is staggeringly large. You're talking at least 5000 vertical feet if you route it all the way down through New Mexico AND tunnel under the highest spots. Calculate in the amount of energy needed to move it horizontally across the country as well, and you're talking about a sizable percentage of the U.S. energy grid being dedicated to this thing.

Desalinization plants aren't particularly efficient, but they're more efficient than piping the water thousands of miles UPHILL.

[liberalmike27]

20. Solar

and Wind Powered pumping stations.

I would agree, that some routes might not be desirable. But even Georgia had some problems a while back. It'd have to start small anyway. I'm all for other methods, for one people not having so damn many children, or cutting back. It would seem the problem is with us now, and we're going to be having them. Might as well address them, do it in an environmentally progressive way, and try to deal with this crap the best way we can. Pipe-lining water is sure better than shipping it in trucks, or letting places go without. Massive migration seems unfeasible.

We've got areas that flood, and others without enough--just got to connect the two, and help both problems.

[happyslug]

41. Pump from the gulf of Cortes and use evaporation do the job.

One plan calls for Salt water to be pumped in the Salton Sea, and then build a glass cover that captures the water as it evaporates, then leave the water droplets flow down the glass into channels that takes the then fresh water to a collection point. Building the complex would be expensive, but once in place, last for decades.

A variation of this is just to dig a canal between the Salton Sea and the Gulf of Cortes and then leave nature takes its course. Water evaporate naturally and be draw in the direction of LA for that is the prevailing wind current in that part of the US. What ever water is in Southern California is generally draw out to the California Current as it hits south to join the North Equatorial Current. The North Equatorial Current then goes Westward to Asia to join what is called the Kuroshio (also called the Japanese Current) as it floats around Japan and then joins the North Pacific Current as it head westward to Alaska, British Columbia, Washington State, Oregon and Northern California.


The Japanese Current goes from Japan to Northern California, bring with it rain and snow in most years, then turns south and then east and becomes the California Current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corrientes-oceanicas.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Current

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pacific_Current

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroshio_Current

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Pacific_Gyre

It is the movement of these Currents that makes the Pacific Northwest so wet, and Southern California and the American Southwest and Northern Mexico so dry. The California Current tends to pull the moisture from those areas.

If the Salton Sea would be filled to sea level, it would produce a lot of evaporation, much of it would drop on Southern California (A lot would also end up falling into the Pacific).

Here is a web site where you can see how the world oceans lines would change, if the world wide sea level is increased by various amounts. The Default in the site is 7 meters (about 21 feet). The reason for that is if the West Antarctic Ice Sheet ever Collapses, it would raise world wide sea levels about 7 meters. It is believed to have done so in the past, about 200,000 years ago.

http://flood.firetree.net/



An Article on the last time the West Antarctic Ice Sheet Collapsed (and given it is almost March, Sometime in Spring (The Antarctic Autumn) is when the Antarctic Ice Shelves will be at their smallest, and thus the most likely time for the West Antarctic Ice SHEET to collapse.

http://www.imaja.com/as/environment/can/journal/madhousecentury.html

The Ice Shelves, since they float on water, will have no affect on world wide sea levels for they are displacing the water they will be when they melt. That is NOT true of Ice SHEETS, which are glaciers which are grounded (in the case of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet below sea level). Grounded means the Ice Sheet is laying atop of solid earth not water. This permits such Ice Sheets to contain much more water then the water they would displaced if they melted. The West Antarctic Ice Sheet, if it collapse would raise world wide sea levels at least 7 meters.

At 7 meters, there is still enough ground to prevent the Gulf of Cortes to reach the Salton Sea. At 9 meters they meet and the Gulf of Cortes reaches Interstate 10. How much FRESH water would this bring to Southern California is unknown, but the water has to go somewhere when it evaporates. The down side without a way to capture the water vapors, where the water will go is unknown, most may just end up in the Pacific.

[Xithras]

47. Flooding the Salton basin is a horrible idea for 4 reasons.

1) The Salton Sea is a wildlife area and building a roof over it would destroy the ability of migrating birds to use it.

2) Flooding the Salton Sea would destroy several population centers and displace hundreds of thousands of people, most of whom are quite poor and live in one of the last "affordable" areas of California.

3) The Imperial Sink exists because it's a transition zone between the Imperial Fault and the San Andreas Fault. The Imperial runs along the southwestern edge of the lake. The San Andreas runs along the eastern edge of the lake. I'm trying to imagine a 15 mile wide glass dome straddling one of the most powerful earthquake faults on the planet, and I don't see that working out so well.

4) Geologists have now linked the water levels in the Salton Basin with the frequency of major earthquakes in Southern California. The highstands of pre-settlement Lake Cahuilla correspond with ancient 7+ magnitude earthquakes on the San Andreas that shook much of Southern California. Considering the position of the lake in the transition zone, it makes sense...the weight of the water would have added considerable stress to an already unstable fault zone, and the water itself would have acted as a lubricant as it squeezed into the fault beneath the lake. Flooding the basin with seawater to create a saltier version of ancient Lake Cahuilla would cause those same earthquakes to occur again (http://yubanet.com/california/Flooding-of-ancient-Salton-Sea-linked-to-San-Andreas-earthquakes.php#.UwOyTBwY5s4)

[happyslug]

48. And if the West Antarctic Ice Sheet ever collaspes, the Salton sea can be filled in by water

At the present time the Salton Sea is separated from the Gulf of Cortes by the remains of the Delta of the Colorado river. This dirt mound is only 23-34 feet above sea level, about 9 meters in metric terms.

If the West Antarctic Ice Sheet ever collapses, it will increase world wide sea levels at least 7 meters (About 21 feet). That might be enough for it to destroy the remains of the old delta and empty into the Salton sea. At nine meters (about 27 feet) the Salton sea will fill up.

The West Antarctic Ice Sheet is called the Godzilla of Global warming, for it could collapse in any period from the second week March to Mid April (When the Ice Shelves around Antarctic is at thir lowest level). Yes anywhere between Spring Break and Tax day. After about April 1, the Ice Shelves starts to expand again and we tend to be safe for another year.

The Collapse can take place almost instantaneous, or in less then a day (no one knows), but it would take about two weeks for the effect to spread around the world.

For more see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Antarctic_Ice_Sheet

[upaloopa]

54. It was flooded at one time. That's where the Salton sea came from

There is no fresh water entering it thus the salt water. They have a huge 3D MAP at Bolder Dam that shows what the effect of the flood was on the area.

[Xithras]

55. The current Salton Sea is 1/25th the size of it's ancient natural form.

The Salton Sea is a tiny part of the ancient Lake Cahuilla, which stretched into Mexico and was twenty-five times the size of the current Salton Sea. Lake Cahuilla existed as late as the 1500's, and some parts of it may have been wet as late as the 1700's. The human-caused flood that created the Salton Sea merely re-flooded a tiny part of the ancient lake basin.

When people talk about bringing the Salton Sea to sea level (which has been proposed many times for many reasons), they're talking about re-creating ancient Lake Cahuilla, which would be substantially larger than the Salton Sea we see today.

[happyslug]

23. You forget the Mississippi is in the way

Last edited Sat Feb 15, 2014, 09:38 PM - Edit history (1)

You have to drain the great lakes into the Mississippi river system, then pump the water up to and either under or over the Rio Grand in New Mexico (The Rio Grand is the highest river in attitude in the US). You could use the Colorado to get water to Southern California.

Remember, the Mississippi BOTTOM is already below sea level when it crosses the Missouri border into Arkansas. Thus you have an extensive pumping to do to get over the Rio Grand. The cost just to build the system will be immense, the pumping cost extensive. I do not know if the US can afford it.


St Louis is 455 Feet Above Sea Level:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis,_Missouri#Topography

Albuquerque NM: 5,312 Feet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albuquerque%2C_New_Mexico

Santa Fe NM 7320 Feet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe%2C_New_Mexico

Notice any water MUST raise at just less than 5000 feet (i.e. 1 mile). That is a HUGE elevation to move water over. Furthermore Santa Fe is further into the mountains the Water MUST either cut through or go over. Remember we are talking about water joint UPHILL not down hill, so it must be pumped.

For comparison the Panama Canal water DROPS from a height of only 85 feet above sea level:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatun_Lake

The Colorado is FURTHER West so you must get through the Rio Grande River first, but at Las Vegas the Colorado is 2001 feet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas,_Nevada

[wercal]

29. There is extra water in Montana and North Dakota.

Much of the rights to this excess water are owned by Indian tribes. They actually anticipate sales of water to Colorado in the future. I'm not sure if its feasible to get it to Colorado.

[Thor_MN]

34. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

If the environment in the Southwest won't support the current population, it's time for the population to move. If there's not enough water to irrigate, stop trying to farm what is/was/will be a desert.

If you want to play planetary engineer, flood Death Valley from the ocean. The evaporation will increase precipitation.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Not going to happen.

Transporting water out of the Great Lakes basin would violate a treaty with Canada. And there are probably better uses of a trillion dollars than spending it on a dozen new nuclear power plants to generate enough energy to pump water uphill over the Rockies to support unsustainable cities.

[NickB79]

38. The city of LA alone uses 586 MILLION gallons per DAY

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25090363/california-drought-water-use-varies-widely-around-state

152 gal/capita * 3.858 million residents.

That's the equivalent of 14,000,000 barrels of oil (42 gal/standard barrel). Note that this also doesn't take agriculture into account

Keystone XL will pump "only" 590,000 barrels per day at max capacity.

See a problem here?

[gniedermaier]

2. US Water Needs

A pipeline from the Great Lakes is a disastrous idea. One of the biggest water users in arid states is the tracking process. They use well water (aquifer water) for the drilling and use millions of what could be drinking water.

If they can't control or eliminate tracking these areas will continue to lose water and it has become obvious Mother Nature can't provide it. That's why they are called arid zones.

[TexasTowelie]

4. Do you mean fracking?

I agree with you that oil & gas industry is very short-sighted and that the government policy is enabling the profiteers.

Welcome to DU.

[gniedermaier]

5. US water needs

I did mean fracking.

I tried to correct and wrote the same error. Spellcheck worked, my brain didn't!

[olddad56]

21. frack the fracking motherfrackers.

[jwirr]

6. Not the Great Lakes. Conservation should be started immediately and practices that are harmful to

water levels should go: fracking, irrigation of both farming and lawns, deforestation, etc. We could also do more research into desalinization for those states near the ocean. Since the ocean is supposed to rise it should not hurt to take water (within reason) from that source.

[gniedermaier]

9. US water needs

I agree totally.

Desalination seems to me like a great alternative for coastal states needing water. Start up would take some time but would provide good water for drinking and irrigation, and could be piped (with U.S. labor and materials) to states like Arizona, New Mexico and essentially any other states that needed it. It would create jobs for the long term. Nothing wrong with being proactive is there?

[Xithras]

15. I don't even know if you'd need to worry about the inland part.

If California were to move to a fully desalinated system and stopped relying on the Colorado river, the water rights currently assigned to California could be freed up for the other inland states it crosses. That move alone would alleviate a lot of problems in the western U.S.

[former9thward]

7. You are wrong Mr. President.

It is a zero sum game and has been for quite some time.

[ErikJ]

10. Take less showers.

Anytime you take a shower -- especially a hot one -- with soap and a scrubbing device like a washcloth or a loofah, you're undermining the integrity of your skin's horny layer. The soap and the hot water dissolve the lipids in the skin and scrubbing only hastens the process. The more showers you take, the more frequently this damage takes place and the less time your skin has to repair itself through natural oil production. What's more, the horny layer of your skin can be sloughed off by scrubbing, exposing the delicate skin cells beneath. The result of showering too frequently is generally dry, irritated and cracked skin.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/skin-care/daily/tips/daily-shower-skin1.htm

[olddad56]

22. even my skin is horny? Damm, no wonder I always feel this way.

[madrchsod]

11. there`s 1.6 trillions of gallons of water worth 48+ billion just north of las vegas but.....

it`s contaminated with atomic bomb waste.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/13/nation/na-radiation-nevada13

[madrchsod]

12. australia is building desalination plants

i see no reason we can't...oh shit i forgot this is the usa. everything thing revolves who will win and who will lose and how much money can be made betting on either side

[joanbarnes]

18. STOP FRACKING!

[woo me with science]

26. [phone]

Thank you.

[jsr]

31. Yep.

[Marthe48]

19. NASA is looking for water on the moon

I love space exploration, but maybe we should spend the money to fix this planet before we start raping the Moon?

[anasv]

27. pulls out hair

No one is suggesting that water be transported from the moon to earth.

[NickB79]

49. First we bomb the moon, THEN we rape it

These things must be done in a very precise sequence

[on point]

24. Ie sell out to corporate interests. The answer is simple farms must shift

To less water intensive crops and or be more flexible in how much they can plant. They are already taking to much water to farm what is a near desert

[woo me with science]

25. I think he said he will be proposing something called "Brawndo"

Last edited Sun Feb 16, 2014, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

instead of water.

It has electrolytes. And his corporate pals recommend it, along with fracking.

[Nihil]

40. +1

That's getting remarkably prescient these days ...

[hatrack]

42. It's got what plants crave!

Not just "electolytes" but "electrolytes and shit"!!!

[Doctor_J]

28. Didn't the admin just OK some more fracking permits?

Might help to stop polluting the water we [v]do have

[DallasNE]

30. Not Just California But Also West Virginia And North Carolina

Different reasons but all are water issues.

But if you are talking about piping water to California it would make more sense to bring is down from the north from the Columbia or Willamette Rivers. It could probably even be augmented by some water from the Sacramento River in California.

[XemaSab]

44. Not one more drop

of the Sacramento.

NO.

[LeftyMom]

45. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

The delta is already losing too much land and too much wildlife to salt intrusion caused by low water releases.

[DebJ]

32. Those lush green lawns in the Las Vegas area need to be outlawed. n/t

[callous taoboy]

33. We are at stage 4 drought- My tea-bagger neighbor is watering right now

On a no watering day, in the middle of the day. She has already been ticketed twice but she says it is too much govt. interference.

[NickB79]

50. Can you call the cops? nt

[Lamonte]

36. Water

Pipeline from Alaska.

[K lib]

39. A couple of ideas that have not been mentioned

1. Don't approve the keystone pipeline
2. Spend money on improving our water infrastructure. Would help alleviate some of the water shortage and create jobs.
3. Provided susbidies to consumers for products that are high quality and use limit water usage such as toilets, dish washers, shower heads, clothes washer, etc


http://www.cnt.org/2013/11/18/the-case-for-fixing-the-leaks-release/

[XemaSab]

43. Why do I have the strangest feeling that

Obama's going to come out in favor of the tunnels and Shasta enlargement?

[LeftyMom]

46. Probably because he went golfing in the desert after his water photo op?

With reality like that who needs the Onion?

[NickB79]

51. How long until we see a major city evacuated as unlivable?

I think that's something we'll likely be seeing a lot of the next few decades as global climate change really starts to kick in.

[upaloopa]

52. I am running for a seat on our HOA board of directors

If elected I propose to teach the home owners how to replace their front lawns with drought tolerant plants. The local water authority will give discounts if people do that. I am in CA

[Brigid]

56. We could start by guarding our existing water supplies . . .

From companies that are poisoning them. West Virginia has no shortage of clean, perfectly usable water -- or at least it didn't, until the coal industry began getting away with polluting the rivers and streams because no one was keeping watch. Between that and mountaintop-removal mining methods, I sometimes fear that wild, beautiful West Virginia might become uninhabitable. And if it does, the culprit will be 150 years or corporate greed and stupidity.

[wordpix]

58. the anti-reg repukes won't allow it - they prefer poisoning water instead