Obama warns Russia 'there will be costs' for any military intervention in Ukraine
Source: Washington Post
In unscheduled remarks at the White House Friday afternoon, President Obama said the United States is "deeply concerned" about military movements by the Russian federation inside Ukraine, and warned that "there will be costs for any military intervention." He added that "any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty... would be deeply destabilizing."
Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-calls-russian-troops-invasion/2014/02/28/e066bfc8-a0be-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html
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seveneyes
(4,631 posts)We have enough costly problems right here at home. Focus.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)I read that a while back, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Russia has a history of that!
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Bill76
(39 posts)What happens if they ignore the warning? Then what do you want the US to do? INVADE? Do you really want to risk US lives over this?
"US out of Rwanda!"
"US out of Darfur!"
"US out of Syria!"
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Let's by all means make sure that we never do anything to help somebody that we don't already like. Maybe somebody that's good will step in, but it can't be us because we have no conviction behind our beliefs.
We have beliefs, but they have no consequences unless they help those we feel some kinship with. It's easy to be empathic towards those we are part of; it's easy to help our own. The 1%, the fascists, the racists, the genocidal do likewise. What requires real compassion is to step in an say, "I may suffer but I'll help somebody even if it hurts me and, in the long run, I don't gain anything."
True evil has the appearance of good but a heart of selfishness. Blatant evil is venal and petty, obvious and wanton, whatever its scale. Even Hitler and Stalin were wise to this and masked their crimes with the labels of "justice", "common good," and "purity." Or, if you like, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon and Reagan.
Bill76
(39 posts)
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Into Iraq, killed off numerous civilians and some hundreds of bad guys, while convincing their public at home of the notion that "smart bombs and smart missiles" meant 4,000 pounds of explosives could hit a house but only the bad people in the house would be killed.
Then over the next nine years, 50,000 kids died every years on account of sanctions that the Russian leadership imposed on the people of the nation of Iraq. The sanctions were supposed to hurt the President of Iraq, one Saddam Hussein, that the Russian KGB itself had put into office back in the early 1960's - but hey, if the Iraqi people couldn't take the joke, too bad for them. In any event, despite the sanctions, Saddam Hussein kept building palatial monuments to his excellence, and he even had entire bathrooms constructed out of 24 K gold.
Then to break up the monotony, in Spring 2003, the Russians started a Shock and Awe campaign. Within four years, the government in Iraq had been de-stabilized to the extent that close to one million Iraqi civilians were dead, and another four million had beco0me refugees. But hey, someone found Saddam Hussein living inside a hole, and he was given a trial and then executed, so it was not all for naught.
Those damn Russians! Why can't those people be peace loving like the people of the USA?
Chan790
(20,176 posts)sovereign nations that Russia has decided to not recognize are not part of Russia...and killed thousands in the name of "putting down revolt."
Oh wait, that's because it's a near-constant occurrence for the past decade. And in the 1980s. And in the 1960s. And in the immediately post-WWII-era.
Anyone conflating Russian adventurism with US adventurism has a poor understanding of exactly how much "adventuring" Russia really does (especially compared to the US) and the degree to which they care even less about the well-being of the peoples whose homelands they're invading than the US does. (Arming and financing paramilitaries to target civilians to use as a context for interventionism? The Soviets invented that shit and it remains the first page of the Putin foreign policy playbook.)
You don't know because you don't care because it does not fit your agenda.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 2, 2014, 04:38 PM - Edit history (6)
Adventures.
But the poster I replied to said that Russia went in and killed everyone in the country they invaded. I wanted to point out that we are pretty good at doing very awful things ourselves.
Sort of our nation being a pot calling the kettle black.
Here is brief summary of nations where we have been less than peaceful and friendly in our interactions:
With our utilization of the National Guard
offshore shows of naval strength
reinforcements of embassy personnel
the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Administration)
military exercises
non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers)
the permanent stationing of armed forces
covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
the use of small hostage rescue units
most uses of proxy troops
U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
foreign or domestic disaster assistance
military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
civic action programs
army, navy and marine attacks and massive weaponry deployed
and many other military activities.
Among sources used, beside news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corp History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug, 1982), "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service, and Ellsberg in Protest & Survive.
Fair use copyright permission for the below: And pls note - some of these military activities are decent ones - such as our 1948 US Air Force dropping food and supplies to Berliners. Also certain involvements were provoked and so our involvement could be morally justified. (World War II participation; rescue attempts for personnel held in Iranian Embassy.)
Turkish newspaper urges that the United States be listed in Guinness Book of World Records as the Country with the Most Foreign Interventions.
COUNTRY OR STATE Dates of intervention Forces Comments
SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops use gatling guns on 300 Lakota Indians, many of them children, the sick and the elderly, at the Massacre at Wounded Knee. This military activity serves as an unofficial marker for the end of the US military's genocide of the American Native Peoples. They lost; "we won!"
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed. Republican Party buys ads in Chicago mainstream newspapers, decrying the violence by the Establishment and calling for support for the workers.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies, including the USA. 140,203 casualties on the Chinese side. Remember, this military action came about due to the Chinese rebels "The Boxers" killing around 200 Protestant missionaries who had come from the USA. .
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops The Phillippines are seized from Spain, with our military killing 600,000 Filipinos. Many of the dead are civilians; others are imprisoned in concentration camp style system of open outdoor prisons.
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain,
1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone; Opened canal 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 We put in our troops - U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land during Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto
.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerrillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, and bombing and then a 19-year occupation after revolts.
TEXAS 1915 Troops Federal soldiers crush "Plan of San Diego" Mexican-American rebellion
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 US Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate. As a result, Cuba comes under the rule of ruthless landlords, a dictator and the American Mafiosa.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, our entire military fought fought Germany for 1 1/2 years. However the participation of our allies was for a full three years prior to our involvement.
The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I was over 37 million.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five military landings to fight Bolsheviks. Naval bombardment.
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, on account of a bombing, Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germany for 3 years; first nuclear war. A total of fifty million people are killed world wide as the result of this horrendous war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
Union leaders, Communists and "sympathizers" are rounded up and killed.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift. US Air Force delivers needed food and supplies to Berliners. This keeps the Western portion of Berlin free from the Soviets.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) America's forgotten war. Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases. It is estimated that between 2,500,000 and 2,730,000 civilians are killed by military actions on both sides. American DoD states that the U.S. military suffered 33,686 battle deaths, along with 2,830 non-battle deaths
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah. Shah becomes a most bloody dictator, using secret police spying and brutal torture and execution methods on his opponents, until his removal in the late 1970's. Official sources state that his regime murdered some 16,000 people. This situation is a case of the victor in the 1953 coup getting to write the history books. The Shah's regime is credited for increasing education, and sanitation, health programs etc for his nation, in contrast to what happened to the people of Iran after the extemist Muslims took over the nation in 1979. But no one will ever know what the democratically elected prime minister, Dr. Mosaddeq, would have done for the nation, as he was ousted by the CIA after only a short stint in office.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against siege.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Army & Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million Vietnamese killed in longest U.S. war; five million others are wounded or left homeless. Cost to us in terms of flesh and blood - over 50,000 troops that die directly, tens of thousands more live on the streets, victims of PTSD and mental disorders caused by their involvement in the war. Also, atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969. Entire financial cost of the war - perhaps 20 billions of dollars (A fortune back in the day.).
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas. Activities conducted under auspices of FBI and CIA occur in Wisconsin reservations as well. Indian leaders are often found "suicided" - stabbed or shot in the back, but the local police continually ruled deaths suicides.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected socialist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gassing of captured ship Mayagüez, 28 troops die when copter shot down. Over the next few years, the American government sides with Pol Pot, the head of the infamous killing fields operation where 3 million people are killed. IOn UN vote after UN vote, our UN people side with Pol Pot.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops and advisors, overflights and aid of anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash. These activities were never authorized by Congress but instead funded by the selling of drugs by the CIA and the conversion of those monies to arms and weaponry for the Status Quo.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution. See above.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi'a rebel bombs barracks. Our ally in this fight, Israel, is believed to have killed at least 20,000 people, many of them children, during their offensive which took place at the same time.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing and Invasion occur four years after revolution. It should be noted that it took a huge American military intervention to succeed against a tiny island with limited military and few people even living there.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple Qaddafi gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops sent to quell to Croix unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup. Fortunately for the people of the Phillipines, the Marcos regime was ended by the Phillippinos who resisted Marcos, and a better form of government replaced their repression.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed. Many foreign journalists believe closer to 10,000 people were killed during the US offensive. Many of these people were civilians.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
IRAQ 1990-91 Bombing, troops, naval Activity. During the actual hot war, 540,000 US troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel. Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
IRAQ Jan 1991-2003 Bombing, naval No-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south; constant air strikes and naval-enforced economic sanctions. During times of the sanctions, 50,000 Iraqi children die each year.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Troops at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps that were then used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
one of his CIA buddies were sent over to Yugoslavia tot ell the President of the nation that he ahd the right to do as he pleased with regards to his internal affairs and the Albanians.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo. By the way, back in the early 1990's Armitage and
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles The Saddam regime is toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases. At the time of the invasion, called "Shock and Awe" some 25 million people called Iraq home.
Before this invasion, Iraq was a nation that promoted equality for women, had high standards of education, with many in the populace speaking more than two languages. It was also a nation that promoted religious tolerance, with Christians, Jews and atheists living in peace with their Muslim neighbors. Since the Spring 2003 invasion, close to one million civilians have been killed, in the civil unrest following the overthrow of the dictators regime, with the resulting divisions along line of Sunni/Shia'a, Christians and Jews and atheists needing to leave the country. Some four million people have left Iraq, never to return.
The American military lost close to 4,500 troops in this war. It was also a war where due to innovations in medical treatment and aid, military casualties were able to survive the initial assault on their bodies, but lived with either terrible loss to themselves in terms of amputations, or else terrible problems due to head injuries they survived but will not overcome.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels
Also in a Huffington Post article dated mid January 2014, an article reports that as many as 2,500 Pakistani civilians have been killed by US drone attacks over the last few years. It should be mentioned that we have never had a declaration of war from either Congress or the President, regarding Pakistan.
SolutionisSolidarity
(606 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)There is damned little we could do the hurt Russia to the point where they could give a damn.
If anything, it will give cause for the Russians to rally and unify even more against the imperialistic exploits of the US/West.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Also, didn't he say pretty much the same thing about Syria?
And why is this a big surprise that Putin isn't letting this stand? You could pretty much figure he would move in as soon as the world left Sochi and the Olympic flame was put out.
But this "there will be costs" bullshit....
hoosierlib
(710 posts)We need to have the Ukranian people's back, militarily is necessary. Putin is a thug that needs to be put in his place, otherwise he will continue to bully the rest of the world. I'm in the military, ready and willing to deploy if called.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)USA USA USA
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Ukraine is essentially "home turf" for Russia. There is no conceivable way that we could beat them in a military exchange under those circumstances. Even if we beat their conventional forces (a doubtful proposition, considering that air superiority would be difficult to achieve), their missile capabilities match ours and they could sink our ships and wipe out our landing zones at a distance.
And if U.S. forces were on Russian soil (including Crimea), don't think for a second that Putin wouldn't order missile strikes on the US carrier fleets and U.S. installations near the combat zone.
Hell, Russia announced the development of a new conventional warhead ICBM system a few months ago. Depending on how far along they are with that, you could conceivably see non-nuclear Russian warheads obliterating Manhattan or Washington DC. If the Russian's see us as being on "their soil", they won't hesitate to strike back at "American soil".
Which, of course, begs an interesting question. If NORAD detected incoming Russian ICBM's, would they wait for the "flash" to determine if they were nuclear or not? Or would we just assume they were nuclear and launch in response?
Open combat against Russia is suicidal.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)In fact, it's well known that the Russian military has largely been significantly degrading overall since the end of the Cold War, despite the occasional cosmetic revamps and minor missile platform upgrades.
It's almost like TPTB are trying to puff up and inflate Russia to make them this big, bad, strong boogeyman that could kick our asses. They couldn't, and they wouldn't be suicidal enough to try.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)
frylock
(34,825 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here's your opportunity:
The French advance toward Kaluga was checked by a Russian corps. Napoleon tried once more to engage the Russian army for a decisive action at the Battle of Maloyaroslavets. Despite holding a superior position, the Russians retreated following a sharp engagement, confirming that the Russians would not commit themselves to a pitched battle.[14] His troops exhausted, with few rations, no winter clothing, and his remaining horses in poor condition, Napoleon was forced to retreat. He hoped to reach supplies at Smolensk and later at Vilnius. In the weeks that followed the Grande Armée starved and suffered from the onset of the Russian Winter. Lack of food and fodder for the horses, hypothermia from the bitter cold and persistent attacks upon isolated troops from Russian peasants and Cossacks led to great losses in men, and a general loss of discipline and cohesion in the army. When the remnants of Napoleon's army crossed the Berezina River in November, only 27,000 fit soldiers remained; the Grand Armée had lost some 380,000 men dead and 100,000 captured.[15] Following the crossing of the Beresina Napoleon left the army, after much urging from his advisors and with the unanimous approval of his Marshals.[16] He returned to Paris by carriage and sledge to protect his position as Emperor and to raise more forces to resist the advancing Russians. The campaign effectively ended on 14 December 1812, not quite six months from its outset, with the last French troops leaving Russian soil.
The campaign was the decisive turning point in the Napoleonic Wars.[1] The reputation of Napoleon was severely shaken, and French hegemony in Europe was dramatically weakened. The Grande Armée, made up of French and allied invasion forces, was reduced to a fraction of its initial strength. These events triggered a major shift in European politics. France's ally Prussia, soon followed by Austria, broke their alliance with France and switched camps. This triggered the War of the Sixth Coalition.[17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia
About Russia in WWI?
Russia fought with Britain, France and us, and had a revolution.
Well, how about the outcome of Hitler's campaign in Russia?
The Soviets repulsed the important German strategic southern campaign and, although 2.5 million Soviet casualties were suffered in that effort, it permitted to Soviets to take the offensive for most of the rest of the war on the Eastern Front.[77]
. . . .
The whole of the Soviet Union become dedicated to the war effort. The population of the Soviet Union was probably better prepared than any other nation involved in the fighting of World War II to endure the material hardships of the war. This is primarily because the Soviets were so used to shortages and coping with economic crisis in the past, especially during wartime—World War I brought similar restrictions on food. Still, conditions were severe. World War II was especially devastating to citizens of the USSR because it was fought on Soviet territory and caused massive destruction. In Leningrad, under German siege, over a million people died of starvation and disease. Many factory workers were teenagers, women and old people. The government implemented rationing in 1941 and first applied it to bread, flour, cereal, pasta, butter, margarine, vegetable oil, meat, fish, sugar, and confectionary all across the country. The rations remained largely stable in other places during the war. Additional rations were often so expensive that they could not add substantially to a citizen’s food supply unless that person was especially well-paid. Peasants received no rations and had to make do with local resources they farmed themselves. Most rural peasants struggled and lived in unbearable poverty but others sold any surplus they had at a high price and a few became rouble millionaires until a currency reform two years after the end of the war wiped out their wealth.[157]
Despite harsh conditions, the war led to a spike in Soviet nationalism and unity. Soviet propaganda toned down extreme Communist rhetoric of the past as the people now rallied by a belief of protecting their Motherland against the evils of German invaders. Ethnic minorities thought to be collaborators were forced into exile. Religion, which was previously shunned, became a part of Communist Party propaganda campaign in the Soviet society in order to mobilize the religious elements. The social composition of Soviet society changed drastically during the war. There was a burst of marriages in June and July 1941 between people about to be separated by the war and in the next few years the marriage rate dropped off steeply, with the birth rate following shortly thereafter to only about half of what it would have been in peacetime. For this reason mothers with several children during the war received substantial honors and money benefits if they had a great enough number of children—mothers could earn around 1,300 rubles for having their fourth child and earn up to 5,000 rubles for their tenth.[158]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II
Our military didn't do that well in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Why in the world would we want to take on Russia?
I can appreciate your enthusiasm to serve, but there are better places to do it than in Russia.
Pushing back against Russian aggression by placing troops in the region (we have a division based in Germany) and publicly backing the current regime in power in Kiev has no parallels to Napoleon's invasion of Russia.
Our military did very well in Iraq and Afghanistan as both wars were over in a matter weeks. Where we fail is when attempt to stay in a place in run the country. Had we not dissolved the Iraqi Army and not imposed our will on the Iraqi, we could have been out by 2004-2005 (I was there). Afghanistan has been a cluster fuck since the late 1970's when foreign powers starting getting involved by picking winners.
We need to assist other countries (especially when are attempting to over throw or break away from regimes that have abused them in the past...i.e. Syria, Iraq, Libya and the Ukraine), not dictate their internal affairs.
I encourage you read about the history of the Ukraine and to fully understand its relationship to Russia. I think you'll get a better feel for what Putin is planning and why the Ukrainian people need out assistance.
Inaction on our part again will only further prove how hypocritical our nation's foreign policy is and embolden other bullies worldwide. When you are the world's lone super power, you have a moral obligation to act when weaker nations are bullied or abused.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)during the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union. I was in Germany (at a campsite in Munich) the day the Russians entered Czechoslovakia.
But Russia is a trap for footsoldiers. It is incredibly cold in much of Russia in the winter.
We do need to stop Russia from invading the Ukraine, but we cannot and must not get involved in war in Russia. That may be hard to do if we are fighting in that area.
Perhaps our military has a plan to support the Ukrainian people that does not entail putting foot soldiers and tanks into Russia itself. We shall see. I hate war. Who doesn't? Someone close to me was a child in Austria in WWII. War hurts children and other living beings. It is an abomination.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Against the people of Iraq only lasted a few weeks?
Citation please?
Having known people who did four tours there,with each tour lasting at least 11 months, not sure where you got this statistic.
Response to hoosierlib (Reply #6)
newthinking This message was self-deleted by its author.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)im sure he means trade/economically.. not physically/militarily :p
i honestly see the Ukraine splitting up like Yugoslavia did :p there have been multiple factions of ideologies in that country since the Russian revolution from the czars 
left wing anarchy used to be a big movement in the Ukraine too.. wondering when that movement will show itself again. anything would be better than the the neo Nazis that are trying to use this opportunity to further their causes :p
guess time will tell
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)It would prohibit Europe from buying gas from Russia. That would really excite Angela Merkel.......not.
Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia too.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)
frylock
(34,825 posts)are you fucking shitting me?! and now this? we don't have a fucking leg to stand on.
olddad56
(5,732 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)without risking serious harm to USA and EU.
Our "best fighting force in the world" ra ra rhetoric is just that. Russians can take out our carriers and we won't be able to project any power. The Europeans have no appetite for a war on their soil.
Economic sanctions on Russia cannot be imposed by the UN because Russia will veto them. Our unilateral sanctions will raise the price of oil around the world to $200 a barrel since Russia is a very large player in world oil. That will give the Russians more money to fight us while we will go into debt for ideology.
It is time to throw the Ukrainian fools under the bus.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)for the world, they can't.
fedsron2us
(2,863 posts)as they seldom turn out well.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)puppet, they lost their influence in Ukraine to the West, and thus they're embarrassed in their own backyard (during/right after their Olympics, no less). We're not going to fight them militarily, because...why would we? It's not our backyard, and it's not our fight (despite whatever treaty-type things we signed in the 90's). But I imagine there will be diplomatic/trade consequences, and that's what I think Obama is planning. It's up to us to be the adults and not push the situation, beyond helping Ukraine get back on its feet.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)There has to be consequences for what Putin is at least contemplating doing and I don't think Obama is thinking we should be involved militarily. That's just foolish. yet we can't let Putin do whatever the hell he wants to those people.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)As the "resurgent" economy is equivalent to the way a dead goldfish "resurges" to the top of the bowl once it is dead.
And we have lost so many of our civil rights, how dare Obama or anyone in our government complain about what Russia may do to the Ukraine. Remember those young people who were pepper sprayed directly on their eyeballs by the belligerent police on UC Davis Campus? Some of the protesters are still in jail.
Get caught by police protesting and face one to two years in jail. Right here in the USA. And get caught a second time, at another protest, and you can be in jail for ten years. And if somehow someone can peg you as part of a "terrorist" group, you can probably be renditioned.
We need to focus on cleaning up our own messes, without going ballistic on "helping through use of our military" the people in other nations.
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)
pampango
(24,692 posts)Obama did not threaten the use of military force. Nor should he. We cannot help Ukraine militarily any more than we could Hungary or Czechoslovakia decades ago. Or than Russia could help Iraq.
Obama can negotiate with Iran when many are urging him to use military force. I suspect he can find ways of bringing "costs" to bear on Russia without using the military.