Putin ready to invade Ukraine, troops seize Crimea

[GliderGuider]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin demanded and won his parliament's approval on Saturday to invade Ukraine, where his troops have apparently already seized the Crimea peninsula, spurning Western pleas for restraint.

Talk of confrontation or outright war spread rapidly across Ukraine, with pro-Moscow demonstrators raising the Russian flag above government buildings in several cities and anti-Russian politicians calling for mobilization.

Ukraine's Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk said Russian military intervention would lead to war and any relations with Moscow. He called for a political solution.

Putin's open assertion of the right to deploy troops in a country of 46 million people on the ramparts of central Europe creates the biggest confrontation between Russia and the West since the Cold War.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140301

---

I'm beginning to suspect that this thing has the potential to go nuclear.

[warrant46]

1. Can you say Hungary 1956?

This will end badly

[GliderGuider]

4. And Czechoslovakia 1968...

There is precedent.

[warrant46]

5. That Too

That also ended poorly for the Locals when the tanks rumbled in

[RobertEarl]

12. History will not repeat

If Russia continues the oppression of the Ukrainian peoples Russia will be hurt.

Russia needs the money from the selling of its natural resources and if they continue to oppress the revolution, Russia will suffer worse than anyone.

The Ukranian Spring is just warming up. It is good to see people throwing off the shackles of oppression, is it not?

[warrant46]

17. Well it is exciting to watch

But apparently there are more shackles of repression around the world. rather than idyllic meadows, where the birds sweetly sing.

[RobertEarl]

19. Less shackles now than ever, imo

Shackles of oppression are at a minimum. President Carter was the man who claimed that henceforth, Human Rights would be the guiding principle, and except for the error of the bush era, the world has been steadily moving forth to freedom.

Russia is probably the most free it has ever been and its people will not be caged again. Ukraine can taste freedom and they will not give up their revolution. We should all support them, but their battle is one they must win on their own.

[warrant46]

21. +1 N/T

[Bill76]

75. Sorry, I disagree.

Everything in your post strikes me as false. But you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.

[Enthusiast]

128. RobertEarl, I think you should reconsider your position.

Not false, but true! You have been misled. I'm sorry to say.

[cosmicone]

46. I doubt the protesters who couldn't wait until next elections

Last edited Sat Mar 1, 2014, 06:21 PM - Edit history (1)

and ho threw Molotov cocktails at the police are a "spring" but just a bunch of emboldened thugs who could not wait for the political process to play out.

Yanukovytch was democratically elected. Heck none of us here liked GW Bush or his policies but we didn't try to overthrow his government -- we waited patiently and got a government we wanted (albeit not all the policies we wanted.)

The so called "protesters" were nothing but thugs, gangs and fratboys who disobeyed the rule of law. I don't think they have the backing of a vast majority of citizens and therefore Moscow will succeed in establishing a new government.

The CIA boy Yahtsenyuk will probably flee to Washington.

[cstanleytech]

66. True enough. Its just to bad the democrats didnt retain control of the house for longer

because if they had we might have had more of the policies that we did want like a single payer system as well as the closing of the tax loopholes that solely benefit the 1% that the republicans still refuse to close.

[RobertEarl]

97. How dare you?

What are you thinking? Or even thinking at all except how to knee-jerk for the 'boss'?

These people you declaim occupied the square for 3 months in peace, doing their part of demanding change. When the 'man' attacked, they stood up for themselves and fought back. And you sit there and call them thugs? WTF!

[cosmicone]

116. The peaceful protesters left at some point when a deal was made

and then came the impatient and rowdy ones who threw molotov cocktails at the police who were there to enforce law and order.

We are talking about two different protesters.

[RobertEarl]

120. No. You are wrong

Look at who won? And who ran away with their tail between their legs.

Ukraine's government has been taken back by the people. The police have scampered back home, and peace, at least for now, reigns.

Calling them thugs is like calling George Washington a thug.

[cosmicone]

124. It was a democratically elected government

and elections were next year -- there was no need to overthrow it nor was it legal to overthrow it.

You cannot escape that simple fact.

[Igel]

108. So was Morsi.

Yet his overthrow was a good thing because you didn't like his policies or purported policies.

[DallasNE]

115. Did Not Yanukovytch Dump The Constitution

And that act alone undermines his authority as elected leader.

[MattBaggins]

54. I am always wary

Even with revolutions I keep that old saying in mind; "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

[JDPriestly]

56. Rarely do armed revolutions lead in the short-term to democracy.

They are sometimes a first step, but just having a revolution is not a quick way to democracy.

The situation in Ukraine as I understand it is not about having a revolution so much as it is about choosing the economic and political alliances that will determine the economic future of the country. That is a really tough issue. Putin would be making a serious mistake if he were to invade the Ukraine. The people of Ukraine should decide what course they want their nation to take. And if the country is to be divided, well, we used to have Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. All of those countries were divided or divided themselves and did not suffer that much.

[RobertEarl]

99. Right. Armed revolution rarely leads to democracy

And in this case it was the so called "elected democracy" that took up arms and attacked the peaceful occupiers. That shows that the 'elected' are the scumbags and have shown they and their arms are leading away from democracy. The people have spoken. "Enough", they say, "of the scam democracy that feels they have to take up arms against its people".

And the elected president ran away after his arms failed. The people won.

[dlwickham]

13. my thoughts exactly

[hollowdweller]

79. How about Afghanistan

Putin may get his ass handed to him

[Demeter]

119. You forgot Finland / Keralia, 1939-40

[HereSince1628]

6. I think the middle and the end will both be bad.

[warrant46]

10. Yes people with 1/2 Cobblestones Vs Tanks

Well maybe a few Molotov Cocktails thrown in

[smokey775]

2. This is beginning to get scary.

This has the potential to sprial out of control quickly and engulf the region.

[another_liberal]

20. War is always fun for some . . .

At least it is until it's their guts in their lap, and their blood soaking into the ground.

And that doesn't even take into account one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qjnm3V0xYjI

[smokey775]

23. It's usually the chickenhawks who call the loudest

for war, not those that have seen the effects of war up close and personal.

[another_liberal]

24. Well said, my friend.

Awfully sad, and totally true.

[MADem]

31. Why are people supporting Putin's war against the Ukrainians, one has to ask? nt

[smokey775]

32. I wish I had an answer for you my friend.

[MADem]

36. I don't think it's OUR job to solve that problem, but this sucks.

And all this "excuse making" as though the Ukrainians are a threat to Moscow is just absurd. Putin's engaging is a tsar-like territory grab. He's an asshole.

[RKP5637]

62. Exactly what is going on. Putin longs for the old Russia and the KGB, and wants to

be emperor. Damn, just watching his body language tells a lot. I've heard him called a thug numerous tines today, quite true! This, is just the beginning, he is testing the waters for expansion. None should be naive about what is happening. He's a cut from the old cloth IMO.

[another_liberal]

34. Who is doing that?

They are damned fools if they are!

[MADem]

37. There's a ton of "excuse making" up and down this thread.

"Oh well, it's close to Moscow..." -- PLEASE.

[smokey775]

40. To be fair,

I don't think another liberal is calling for an invasion of Ukraine by Russian troops.

[MADem]

138. I think he is.

See his post 42 comments.

[another_liberal]

42. Please what?

If the defense of Russia was your responsibility, would you ignore what has been happening in Ukraine?

Also, over ten million ethnic Russians live in Ukraine. Would you just trust their fate to chance and let the chips fall where they may?

[christx30]

48. Would you be ok with

Mexico invading Texas to protect Mexicans living in the US?

[newthinking]

58. Let's make that hypothesis more accurate

How would you feel if the the tea party gained complete power by overrunning the white house. They then removed all democrats from their offices and outlawed their party. Gave all the empty seats in the senate and congress to tea party members including some dominist evangelical Christians who had been calling for death to Gays, and was pushing for a law to outlaw Hispanic languages and hunt down every mexican-American to deport everyone who was not a citizen, including those raised in the country?

That is a closer analogy.

Think about it: How would people with beliefs like we have on this board really be reacting to a combination of far right and moderately far right having complete, undemocratic control. And would you trust elections in that situation?

[okaawhatever]

86. There isn't an accurate hypothesis because Ukraine doesn't have the Constitutional options we do.

The mechanism for impeachment was designed to be almost impossible and is also quite lengthy. Also the comparison to the tea party assumes a minority party taking over, in this case it was the exact opposite. Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of the population. Many more than that speak Russian but there is no where near an ethnic Russian majority in Ukraine. Even on the Crimea, which is the only area that even has a majority of ethnic Russians, they only have 58.5%.

As to the language issue, the 2014 language bill may have been overreaching but so was the one passed under Yanukovych. The 2012 bill was questionable on constitutional grounds as well.

About taking power and changing parliament, Yanukovych did the same thing. The Orange Revolution saw a change in the constitution to reduce the powers of the President. What happened shortly after taking office? He had "his" judges find that change unconstitutional and so he was given powers the voters didn't think he would have when they elected him. Not to mention his change in the rules of coalition and ignoring the constitution which says to form a coalition you need party alignment, you can't pick individual members out for alignment. He ignored that to form a coalition. If Ukraine had remedies to allow the citizens to challenge the corruption in the court system it's safe to say this wouldn't have happened. They had a corrupt President who was ignoring years of agreement and planning on the EU AA deal (not to mention majority support for it) and was going to sign another deal which didn't offer any details. The EU AA was a public offering, it's on the internet. All the sudden they're supposed to sign their future away because the President changed his mind?
Please...........

[newthinking]

89. No, the three parties combined represent a lot of Ukrainians, but not the majority

Yanukovich won an election in 2010 which would not have happened if this were the case right?
Now, it *is* true that there are more Ukrainian's who feel closer to the EU than to Russia, but less than 50% as there are also a lot who really don't have a preference but just want a stable life. But the three parties do not have a membership that is over 50% of the voting public. I am just making the distinction, because it is important not to stereotype the situation as it is much more complex than presented.

As I have said elsewhere, it is hard to get the full picture from what we get in the press here.

I am not personally arguing which perspective is the "better". Personally I am in favor of integration into the EU. But the situation is very complex and I can completely understand why Crimea would ask for, and Putin would provide, troops, in the hope of security.

[newthinking]

94. Might be even less, I just checked. Fatherland (largest of protests) 20% of seats

The other parties are much smaller.

Though I do agree that Favor toward the EU is probably higher than toward Russia, but that is likely due to much of the population that is too busy surviving to have an opinion one way or the other.

From the Christian Science Monitor :

Just who is Ukraine's opposition?
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/2014/0124/Just-who-is-Ukraine-s-opposition

[DallasNE]

117. Why Is This An Us Or Them Situation

As an independent nation Ukraine should be able to have normal relations with both the EU and Russia. So why is this presented as an us or them choice. Who, beside Putin, is pushing this.

[amandabeech]

127. Yes, who is pushing all this besides Putin.

He's not content to be running a very important country with lots of oil and gas, a large population and a bunch of nukes.

Is it just Putin? Is there a Napoleon complex? A yearning for WWII?

He wants to put together a trade bloc with the countries of the former Soviet Union. So he doesn't get Ukraine as a full member. That's no excuse to invade.

Really, as I posted below, if I were one of his oil or gas customers, I'd be looking to diversify my supply away from Russia and Putin as much as possible as soon as possible. He is an unreliable business partner, and nobody wants to put up with that.

[another_liberal]

106. We already pretty much pick what government Mexico has.

So that's not a meaningful example.

[christx30]

110. I was referring to Putin

invading Ukraine under the pretenses of protecting the ethnic Russians in the area.

[another_liberal]

111. I understood what you were doing.

It's just that your example was completely invalid on the face of it.

[Feral Child]

50. I seem to remember

that there were many German natives in the Sudetenland in the late '30s...

[MADem]

55. A shitload of French Canadians live in New England.

Does that make it "OK" for Canada to come over the border? A shitload of Mexicans live in California, TX, NM, AZ, CO ... hell, all over. Does that make it "OK" for Mexico to invade the US?

These phony suggestions that the Ukrainians are going to "wipe out" the ethnic Russians are just lame-ass excuses for an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation--and nothing more than that.

This is all about Putin being pissed off because the Ukrainian government wants to strike deals with EUROPE instead of having to deal with corrupt, gay-hatin' Russia. Instead of trying to sweeten the pot, and convince with charm and concessions, Putin wants to bully them into submission.

The only good thing about this mess is that Putin is fast becoming the new World's Biggest Asshole. If he keeps this up, people will forget all about that wimpy little Dubya.

It's just not cool.

And I can't believe that people on a Democratic message board are so flexible when it comes to this issue. If one didn't like it when Bush did it to Iraq, one shouldn't like it when Putin does it the Ukraine.

[okaawhatever]

88. I'm with you on this one. The effect of Russian propaganda has amazed me. The Russians had this

planned for some time. I firmly believe they knew there would be a protest when Yanukovych didn't sign the EU deal and had this planned for that. I'll give this to John McCain, he did say that Russia would come for Ukraine and possibly Georgia again and he said this was about energy and the naval base. All the language stuff is dog whistle tactics. The language bill that was passed under Yanukovych netted the two authors of the bill a Potemkin Award from President Putin. He knew it would be divisive. Putin has been trying to create unrest and division since Ukraine's majority support for the EU deal.

A poll in 2009 showed that:

A poll held November 2009 revealed that 54.7% of the population of Ukraine believed the language issue in Ukraine is irrelevant, that each person can speak the language he or she prefers and that a lot more important problems exist in the country; 14.7% of those polled stated that the language issue was an urgent problem that cannot be postponed and that calls for immediate resolution; another 28.3% believed that, while the language issue needs to be resolved, this could be postponed.[4]

That's hardly the fervor that we see today. Gee, I wonder what's happened between then and now........

[another_liberal]

107. Are the French Canadians threatened by mobs of armed, Francophobic fascists?

I don't think so.

[MADem]

118. Are the Russians threatened by the Ukrainians?

Are the Ukrainians in the six enclaves in Russia threatened by the Russians?

Is the suggestion of a threat being overblown to provide cover for invasion?

Should not a country protect their own people, regardless of their ethnic origin, without having a neighbor "invade" for their own good, of course....

[Deep North]

136. This board and others,

...like the Guardian, and BBC, etc. comments sections that I have seen today are swarming with Nashi and RT pro-Putin BS. They are amateurs, and transparent...look for the "fascist" word. They have been around for awhile here, but today they are fully mobilized.

[amandabeech]

141. Other give-away words: "bandit" and "hooligans".

Pro-Putin BS is all over the NYT and the Guardian, too.

Many, too, seem to think that because GHWB and GWB invaded Iraq that no American or Brit can criticize Putin's actions. It's just too much.

[amandabeech]

129. It really isn't cool at all.

Putin really is a punk of the worst type. He must have some sort of psychiatric diagnosis.

Why anyone sides with him here is beyond me.

Why anyone in the world would want to deal with him in any way after this is beyond me.

A lot of people in Ukraine are going to get hurt before this is all over.

I hope the little Napoleon stops with Ukraine and doesn't try to go into Moldova or the Baltics.

[MADem]

137. I think new DUer Deep North figured that out.

He posted just above you.

Unfortunately, it's really difficult to have sincere conversations anymore--there are too many people who stroll in here and do "hit and runs" for patently propagandistic purposes.

One day, that petit dictator will get what he deserves. No one lives forever. In the meantime, though, he has potential to do a LOT of damage. He's determined to rebuild the USSR...it's almost like a Bush-Poppy thing; I believe he feels that he can do it "better" and finish the job that "Gorby" et.al. mucked up!

[amandabeech]

140. Or how about Boris-Vladdie?

Likeable, but drunken and irresponsible, father and an introverted son who cleans up after him.

We can use whatever pattern we want to describe Putin, but IMHO we are dealing with someone who has some serious problems and who is stuck in an age that you, I and most people are glad to see become the distant past.

[MADem]

144. +1,000 nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. Ukraine trading with the EU does NOT endanger Russia. "Defense"? Get real. nt

[MADem]

57. Would you like it if Mexico or Canada "did security" in the USA?

Please.

I'm not buying it.

It's not Putin's country. He shouldn't be interfering in referendums or anything else--at least not at the point of a damned gun.

If ethnic Russians are truly fearful (and I don't buy that, either), the border is right there. Putin should open it and set up a refugee camp, not invade a sovereign nation.

[MADem]

85. No--this is all about territory and assets and ports.

This is not about talking reasonably to people in a diplomatic exchange to find a way forward. There are Russian soldiers on the streets. This is an invasion. They aren't "securing," they are TAKING.

:large

[amandabeech]

100. When the Israelis attacked Lebanon several years ago,

quite a few U.S. citizens were caught in the cross fire.

We did not attack Lebanon or Israel, but instead did our best to evacuate everyone who wanted to leave, including dual citizens.

I assume that we would do everything we could for any U.S. citizens stuck in Mexico during a crisis.

Sometimes, though, it is better to leave on one's own early rather than to expect evacuation later.

[okaawhatever]

104. Wow. I can't believe you actually believe that. It's clear you have had a few drinks of Putin

flavored Kool-Aid.

[AnalystInParadise]

64. There would be no precedent

for Canada or Mexico to do either. The analogy does not fit. Ukraine has been part of Russia (in the minds of the Russians for over a millennium) The Texas belonged to Mexico for less than 20 years, the rest of the American Southwest for less than 25. If anyone would have a claim it would be Spain, not Mexico but thanks for playing. Canada has even less precedent since Canada has only been an independent country since 1867, all territorial disputes were settled before there was a Canada. The same cannot be said for Ukraine and Russia. Unless you are really trying to imply that a nation the overthrew its masters (Mexico overthrowing Spain) has the right to territory that it in itself was thrown out of by other revolutionaries (Texas overthrowing Mexico). If so then you have biased logic and I nor anyone else can ever help you.

[MADem]

72. Excuse me? You do know that names like California and Colorado came from our nation's

MEXICAN roots?

The Mexican border moved--the Mexicans didn't. That's why we spell Texas with an X instead of a J.

No precedent? Please! You're acting as though Putin's regime is somehow connected, in a long, unbroken line, to the days of the tsars. It isn't. Putin's Russia is a completely different animal from the thing it replaced--it's run by one guy, a shirtless strong man on a horse, not a Politburo. Yet you can play the "long arc of history" game with him, while disregarding the facts on the ground in North America. You ask anyone of Mexican heritage whose family has been living in California or Texas for centuries--they don't give a shit about Spain, they know whose land that was, and where their family's allegiances lay. So stop parsing, and tossing out the lame insults--they don't fly and they reflect on your inability to make your case.

The bottom line is this--it's not right to invade neighbors to try to force them to do your bidding at the point of a gun. If you think it's OK, then I know all I need to know about you. Biased logic? Look in the mirror. And get some of that "help" you recommend for others for yourself.

[AnalystInParadise]

82. You are talking to one of them gringo

Mexican family from San Antonio for two hundred years. This land belongs to the United States. My family's allegiance belongs to the United States first, Texas second, maybe Mexico third. Don't broad brush the Hispanic community with that Azatlan bullshit, thanks.....

[MADem]

84. Lo siento pero no puedo llorar.

Don't broad-brush, indeed.

But thanks for proving my point.

You think your allegiance is to America? That's grand. And to extrapolate your POV, well, gee, shouldn't those ethnic Russians in the Ukraine have the very same POV as you, and put their lot with the land where they live...?

[AnalystInParadise]

87. So my allegiance is not to my country?

And I don't speak Spanish, some Hispanic families want to assimilate and that is not a bad thing. The last person to speak Spanish in my family was my grandfather. I am an American first, Texan second, Mexican third, a not too uncommon belief pyramid in Texas.

And you seem to think for some reason I am on Russia's side. I am not, but I understand the Russian mindset on Ukraine, it is the same wrong mindset that makes some Hispanics think that the southwest should be given back to Mexico.

[MADem]

90. The point I am making, that is whooshing over your head, is that

if your allegiance is to your country, why wouldn't the allegiance of ethnic Russians who are Ukrainian citizens be to THEIR country--the Ukraine?

That's where they live, that's where they grew up. If they wanted to be under the Russian regime, it's an easy move.

Why is it OK for Putin to march in to the Ukraine with those excuses? My point is that it's NOT OK.

If he has concerns he can resolve them diplomatically, rather than do it at gunpoint. What he's doing is wrong, and the eyes of the world are upon him.

[AnalystInParadise]

91. Dude

For Fuck's sake reading is fundamental. We are in agreement about Putin. My point was to demonstrate that the same holds true for this country as well and anyone who thinks Mexico or Canada have rights of acquisition.

[MADem]

93. Yes, reading IS fundamental.

I put forth those examples as absurdities, not as possibilities.

[AnalystInParadise]

98. And I pointed

out why they are indeed absurd. Seems like we agree dude.

[newthinking]

102. That is not why this is happening

What is really happening is they are fearful. It is too difficult to explain that through media paragraphs. They were not looking to become part of Russia before the overthrow occurred.

This is all happening due to *the way* the events in the last months occurred. Not because "all of a suddon" Some Ukrainians decided to fight to become part of Russia.

[JDPriestly]

61. It has taken me a long time and reading quite a bit and watching discussions on videos

to understand what the dispute is about. Most people do not have the time or patience for that. So please explain in more detail why you are condemning Putin. I agree with you, but I have difficulty explaining it. That is always a bad sign. If we understand something well, we can usually explain or talk about what we believe.

[newthinking]

65. Unfortunately the press coverage is very uneven

and most have an overly simple view of both what happened in Kiev and what is happening in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

There have been very serious protests (without as much violence) in the east just as there was in Kiev, and it has not been covered well if at all. People can argue until they are blue about the takover in Kiev, but the reality is that likely Civil War is the alternative. This is likely the only hope of avoiding civil war, because I see no moves from any of the current administration's (Ukraine, US, EU) that they are really willing to come to the table with the half of the country that, whether we agree or not, feels it was violently disenfranchised.

[MADem]

68. I am "condemning" him for the same reason I "condemned" Porgie for invading Iraq.

This "drum up an excuse and march right in" is bullshit. We didn't like it when "W" did it, and we shouldn't like it any better because Putin is doing it.

The excuse-making is just laughable:

Waaah, there are ethnic Russians in the Ukraine!

Guess, what--there are ethnic Ukrainians in Russia, too!

Putin wants to "negotiate" an agreement with the Ukraine, like a tsar, at the point of a gun. He wanted the Ukraine under his sphere of influence, they had other ideas, so now he wants to impose his will by force. His army is five times larger than Ukraine's, his reserve forces twice as large, he has the advantage.

Look at this crap; it stinks just as much as Porgie into Iraq did:

Ukraine places forces on combat alert and threatens war as UN security council meets

Russian senate approves use of Russian military in Ukraine
Ukrainian acting president mobilises forces
Ukrainian PM warns of war in case of further escalation
British foreign secretary summons Russian ambassador
Pro-Russian demonstrations take place across east Ukraine
Analysis: coup is payback by Putin for Ukraine’s revolution

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates

[steve2470]

73. Putin is borrowing a page from 1938

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudeten_Crisis

Putin needs to stay out of Crimea and Ukraine. He has no legal or moral authority to intervene. I completely agree with you.

[MADem]

81. And Putin has the might to steamroll them.

:large

[steve2470]

83. yes he does

Putin is simply Josef Stalin with better PR and a tad gentler touch.

[MannyGoldstein]

130. Stalin killed millions

Including many in my family tree. Taken out from their houses and shot in their gardens.

Putin may be a bad guy, by comparing him to Stalin is a bit much.

[steve2470]

132. I was aware of that

Ok, I'll make that " a much gentler touch". He's still pretty Stalinesque from where I sit.

[joshcryer]

126. Those defending its legitimacy?

[JDPriestly]

60. Because they don't understand the situation.

It is true that the now ousted government was elected. But many Ukrainians do not want to enter into a political and economic alliance with Russia. That is understandable.

But the decision has to be up to the people of Ukraine. How to make sure it is is the difficult question.

[cosmicone]

49. Precisely! n/t

[Adrahil]

67. I don't think this fun. Not one damned bit.

But I'm also not willing to look the other way while Putin does whatever the hell he wants.

[another_liberal]

113. By all means don't look away . . .

Negotiate and find a solution.

If you start shooting Russians, Ukraine will most definitely get the worst of it. NATO will not start a World War over Ukraine, not intentionally anyway.

[AverageJoe90]

123. Are you kidding? You really believe that Putin would go down that route?

I don't like the guy myself.....I absolutely despise what his fascist-lite party is doing to LGBT folks in Russia. But for all his wrongs, he's not the kind of fool that Hitler was. Hitler truly was enough of a megalomaniac that he very well would have attacked with atomic weapons given the opprotunity. Putin, at least, isn't that insane.

[Mike Nelson]

3. Didn't George W Bush look into his eyes and see a kindred spirit...

...or feel something? Guess he was wrong... wait, guess he was right.

[GliderGuider]

8. +1 nt

[olddad56]

9. GB and Putin are kindred spirits for sure

[Laurian]

7. After the "preemptive" invasion of Iraq by the US, Putin probably

feels free to do whatever the hell he wants.

[warrant46]

11. It may come down to that

So much for the "Olympic Good Will"

As in ----- Hey is there a vacation room in Sochi ?

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. Is there any indication the Russians are making any moves beyond Crimea?

[dipsydoodle]

22. No.

Their interest lies in the current security of Crimea pending the referendum 30th March.

Its an outcome which Kiev failed to recognise.

[newthinking]

70. None.

This could all be easily toned down with serious efforts (and guarantees, because it will be difficult for them to trust after the first agreement was broken) that the east will not be disinfranchised (further) and that they will have some representation until elections.
Not the sham elections that will happen in May(because Eastern Ukrainians are not stupid and they know that since the party of regions has been outlawed there will not be time to organize new parties.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. Putin asked for and got authority to put troops anywhere in Ukraine

not just in Crimea. And they conveniently have 150,000 troops on exercise just over the border:

The U.S. effort is also aimed at closely monitoring the 150,000 Russian troops exercising along the Ukraine border.

Because they are so close, the United States would have little warning if those troops were ordered to cross into Ukraine.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/28/politics/ukraine-u-s-intelligence/

[Boomerproud]

15. I pray cooler heads and common sense will prevail.

NOTHING good can come of this.

[chuckstevens]

16. It's Obama's Fault!

I don't know how, but I'm sure that will be all the right will talk about.

[left on green only]

41. Their Talk Has Already Begun........

Para Salin has already been shooting her dumb mouth off about how the reason why all of this is happening is because President Obama was so non committal back a few years ago when Russia invaded Georgia.

[karynnj]

44. She knows he was not yet President - and knows the Republican President did little

This might be a case where McCain stood nearly alone - and he might, had he been President, have gotten us into a war with Russia.

[left on green only]

45. ^^^ Good Point ^^^^ nt

[smokey775]

53. Give Sarah her due, after all, she can see Russia from her backyard

so that makes her an expert on foreign affairs.

[awoke_in_2003]

71. Well, she needs to keep a better eye on Putin

[cprise]

59. It probably is Obama's fault

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/12/caught-red-handed/

DemocracyNow has aired parts of the audio.

What you're seeing is a US-initiated putsch for NATO expansionism (right on Russia's border!) that is probably intended to prop-up a faltering economy with war spending. However, it seems to rely on Russia just reacting with a lot of threatening noises and just looking scary...not actually intervening.

US foreign policy has finally jumped the shark in a big way.

[TwilightGardener]

69. Two things: how did we initiate Yanukovich double-crossing his own people

and pairing up with Russia instead of the EU? Number two: Why would we get into a war when we are getting out of a war? We'd just keep the war we had already. Or we'd hit Syria for real and the rest of the world would fucking applaud at this point.

[TwilightGardener]

78. Yeah. I've heard that too, "bad deal" and all. But that's up to Ukraine to

figure out which way they'd rather go, and up to the President to renegotiate to make his people happy--not to make Russia happy, mind you. Russia told him to stop being a "doormat", and he opened fire using snipers. And then Russia refused to sign the peace agreement that Yanukovich and the opposition signed, so that they could claim later that it was not legitimate, and then he fled.

[Ghost Dog]

80. Ukraine requests NATO help

9.07pm GMT

Ukraine has asked NATO to look at all ways to protect its territorial integrity. Foreign Minister Sergei Deshchiritsya said he had held talks with officials from the United States and the European Union and then asked NATO for help after what Ukraine’s prime minister described as Russian aggression.
A request had been made to NATO to “look at using all possibilities for protecting the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, the Ukrainian people and nuclear facilities on Ukrainian territory,” he said.

Reuters

/... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates

[Turbineguy]

18. Standard Russian powerplay.

Heavy handed. On the other hand, maybe a big stick is needed. Ultimately Moscow needs "good relations" with Ukraine.

I think Putin is smarter and more secure than the Soviets were though.

[another_liberal]

25. President Putin, in all fairness, has to take seriously what happens in Ukraine.

Do you know how far it is from the Ukrainian border to Moscow? Look it up sometime.

[Turbineguy]

30. Agreed

[another_liberal]

33. Yes, it's about three hundred miles by road . . .

Or a leisurely afternoon's drive.

[GliderGuider]

38. I drove up that route, from the Czech-Ukraine border to Moscow, in the summer of 1968

It was two weeks before the tanks went into Czechoslovakia, and we saw them staging just across the border into Ukraine. Yes, it's not far, but then nowhere in Europe is very far from anywhere else.

[Purveyor]

26. Invasion or liberation? Depends on who you ask. eom

[adavid]

27. When you compare....

what Russia is doing and what the US has been doing over the past few decades, all I have to say is imitation is the highest form of flattery.

[MADem]

29. Yeah, because those Ukrainians are such a threat ...

You're going to have to do better than that.

This is what most people would call "naked aggression."

[another_liberal]

39. Have you seen . . .

Ukraine has an army which is the 4'th largest in Europe, and have you seen this:

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nuclear-arsenal-threat-314/

[MADem]

51. The Nukes that Moscow Left Behind...?

There's no comparison between the number of uniformed personnel in Russia and in the Ukraine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Armed_Forces


Active personnel 766,000 (2013)[1] (ranked 5th)
Reserve personnel 2,035,000 (2013)[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

Active personnel 159,000 (ranked 36)
Reserve personnel 1,000,000
Deployed personnel 466

Not even CLOSE.

You do understand that RT is Putin's personal propaganda arm? Believing anything coming out of that outlet is like letting the fox guard the henhouse. The news is slanted to always favor Russia and Putin, personally. Putin has absolute control over media in Russia now, since he shut down the last "opposition" agency right before the Olympics.

[another_liberal]

105. Propaganda, smopaganda!

If you can't see the value of a different point of view, you are the one who is falling for propaganda (just not the Russian variety). I've studied World history for decades, seriously studied it, and I know that all governments employ propaganda. Do you seriously think our own doesn't?

The trick, my friend, is to digest the various propaganda and glean out the truth that is to be found between the lines, though that does require an open mind free of emotional biases and jingoistic baggage.

[MADem]

121. Sorry, what you are pushing is the Pootie POV. There is no justification for this invasion, even

SEC GEN of the UN has come right out and said so.

It's bad form to invade other nations without provocation. There IS NO provocation here. This isn't about protecting a minority, this is about acquisition of territory.

It's trumped up bullshit, just like the trumped up bullshit Dumbya pulled to waltz into Iraq and screw that place up.

Russia has the weapons, the massive military, the power. By contrast, Ukraine has squat. Russia is the steamroller, and Ukraine is the pancake. It's just not right, what Putin is doing.

[pampango]

96. You're not suggesting that Putin is afraid that Ukraine is going to invade Russia, are you?

I have not heard anyone suggest that Ukraine has any desire to commit such surefire suicide. They can't even control their own country.

[another_liberal]

103. People like the Right Sector and Svoboda fascists . . .

I doubt the Ukrainian army would dare even contemplate such a stupidity, but people like the "Right Sector" and "Svoboda" fascists are capable of causing almost any imaginable kind of damage and mayhem in the border regions of Russia. They want to force the leadership in Kiev into hostilities with Russia. Nothing would make them more happy than to see an East/West conflagration, so they might have a chance to step in and pick up some of the pieces.

[pampango]

109. They are bad guys but a very small part of the Ukrainian government.

...people like the "Right Sector" and "Svoboda" fascists are capable of causing almost any imaginable kind of damage and mayhem in the border regions of Russia.

There is a lot of hyperbole there. But even if it were true, you don't get to invade countries because of what that country MIGHT do at some point on the future - much less what a small group in that country might do one day.

The far-right is stronger in France, the Netherlands, Austria among other European countries. That does not give Germany the right to invade those countries to prevent the damage that those fascists could do to Germany one day.

The Russian media continually make the claim that the Ukrainians who protest are Nazis. Naturally, it is important to be attentive to the far right in Ukrainian politics and history. It is still a serious presence today, although less important than the far right in France, Austria, or the Netherlands. Yet it is the Ukrainian regime rather than its opponents that resorts to anti-Semitism, instructing its riot police that the opposition is led by Jews. In other words, the Ukrainian government is telling itself that its opponents are Jews and us that its opponents are Nazis.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

[another_liberal]

112. All they have to do is kill a few Ukrainian Russians . . .

Or blow something up just across the border in Russia, and President Putin would have no choice but to act. See what I mean now?

[pampango]

114. Oh please. That is just warmongering. "Putin would have no choice" but to act.

What if a "Russian Ukrainian" kills a few "Ukrainian Ukrainians" or a few Germans or a few Americans? Would some foreign army have "no choice but to act"?

There is always a choice unless a leader is committed to using military force and looking for a reason to do it.

[MADem]

28. Oh, but isn't he DREAMY....? And MISUNDERSTOOD....?

[chrisa]

35. People said that about Ossetia / Georgia too.

The US has no incentive to go to war with Russia over Ukraine. Ukraine is practically Russian anyways, and is not part of the EU. I bet we'll see some political theater, an unwise invasion by Putin that makes him look like a bully, and then back to the status quo before this whole thing blew up.

Russian / EU and US relations will be permanently strained, though.

[TwilightGardener]

47. I don't think it would go back to status quo, I think there'll be West Ukraine

and East (Russian) Ukraine in some fashion. It's a matter of how it will be split, at this point.

[Recursion]

134. Ruthenia 2014? It's possible

People hate map changes, though, so I'm betting on a Ukrainian Confederation of autonomous regions. It will stay out of the EU (Germany doesn't really want to pay for it anyways) but get a cut off the gas money.

[TwilightGardener]

135. I'm betting EU, but no NATO--too threatening.

[hedgehog]

43. We're going to be hearing a lot about how the majority of people

in Crimea are ethnic Russian. We won't be hearing so much about the Holodomor. I would like to see a map showing the ethnicity of those living in the disputed area before 1932 and after 1945.

[Bill76]

76. This doesn't have to go beyond Crimea...

...if the US stays out of it. The Russians have enough problems without trying to occupy all of Ukraine.

[blackspade]

92. All according to Putin's plan.

[Democracyinkind]

101. Russia won't allow to lose control of crimea, but they wouldn't go to war for the rest of Ukraine.

IMHO, that is.

[AverageJoe90]

122. "I'm beginning to suspect that this thing has the potential to go nuclear." Simply put, no. Just no.

GG, if you just want ONE example of why it won't go nuclear without extraordinary circumstances, probably involving some sort of conspiracy that even Alex Jones couldn't wrap his head around.....here's one: Georgia, 2008.

Also, Putin would have to be even more of a fool than Hitler, yes, Hitler, to start a nuclear war over Crimea.

Geez, Paulie, I realize you're a big-time pessimist, but you're honestly outta your league on this one, amigo.

[joshcryer]

125. And soon you will understand our 'alliance' with the Saudis.

The Tartars are soon to go radical.

[DallasNE]

131. Useful Insight From Juan Cole

Cole always has useful insight into matters such as this.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/03/crimean-war-update.html

[adirondacker]

133. Excellent historical context, albeit a tad frightening. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. Kick (nt)