Protests continue after Venezuelan diplomatic win

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Protests continue after Venezuelan diplomatic win
By CHRISTOPHER SHERMAN, Associated Press | March 8, 2014 | Updated: March 8, 2014 10:50am

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuelans returned to the streets in protest Saturday, while the government continued to celebrate a diplomatic victory in the Organization of American States.

Students called Saturday's demonstration the "empty pots march" to highlight Venezuelans' growing frustration with shortages of some everyday items. In Caracas, the march was scheduled to end at the country's Food Ministry, but the evening before Caracas' mayor announced that he had not authorized the march. Hundreds of riot police and National Guardsmen were posted in the area Saturday morning.

President Nicolas Maduro was scheduled to appear at a separate event recognizing the international day of the woman. Maduro has faced several weeks of daily student-led protests in Caracas and some other cities. The protests have been joined by mostly middle-class Venezuelans fed up with inflation that reached 56 percent last year, the shortages of items such as flour, cooking oil and toilet paper, and one of the highest murder rates in the world.

Late Friday in Washington, the Organization of American States approved a declaration that rejected violence and called for justice for the 21 people the government says have died in weeks of street protests. The resolution also offered "full support" for the Venezuelan government's peace initiative, in which the opposition has so far refused to participate. Student and political opposition leaders, one of whom is jailed, have refused to engage in dialogue with the government until all jailed protesters are released.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Protests-continue-after-Venezuelan-diplomatic-win-5299624.php

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. The protesters don't want peace; they want the revolution ended.

I suggest that rather than blocking streets, setting up burning barricades, and attacking cops, they try winning an election.

[totodeinhere]

11. So you don't think they are protesting massive shortages and runaway inflation? n/t

[JackRiddler]

130. Many of them are...

Unfortunately, they're trying to bring the oligarchic right-wing back to power, by overthrowing the elected government. This is likely to make things worse, though the corporate media will make sure to suddenly stop covering these problems.

[totodeinhere]

237. I'm not sure about that. There are countries in Latin America with governments that are to

the right of the Venezuelan government, yet their inflation rate is lower. And yes, I realize that U. S. policy toward Venezuela could have something to do with that. But I doubt if the average protester fully understands all of nuances of this situation. Calling the demonstrators right wing thugs as some are doing is off base IMO.

[joshcryer]

28. They are kids.

Some are just stupid.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

2. Typical. A place votes against U.S. Type Capitalism so we cut off their supplies...

...then we have the nerve to point to their shortages as an inevitable result of rejecting U.S. Type Capitalism.

[hack89]

3. We didn't cut off their supplies

It is due to their currency laws - companies cannot obtain the dollars they need to import goods. VZ is nearing bankruptcy with huge debts they cannot pay and inadequate foreign reserves to import goods.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. Exactly. We pulled the "your money is no good here" crap.

[hack89]

5. Dollars or Euros are the currency for global commerce

That is what foreign currency reserves are all about. People in other counties pay for foreign goods in dollars or Euros, not their local currencies. Basic economics.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. Which is why counties can be exploited.

[hack89]

18. How? That makes no sense.

The world has always had a reserve currency that is used to transact international business. The world choose the dollar and the euro because they are stable.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. It used to be based on a standard that was less volatile....

Not based on how you "felt" about someone.

[hack89]

24. What standard would that be?

The pound sterling? The deutshe mark? There has always been a dominant global currency. And it usually reflects the dominant economies.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

27. Used to be gold and silver....

Keeping in mind that I believe "money" will be gone in the future.

[EX500rider]

239. "I believe "money" will be gone in the future."

Yep, to be replaced by one's and zero's.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

246. Do you honestly expect an advanced civilization uses tokens?

[EX500rider]

252. No, I expect 1's and 0's like i just said. n.t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

267. And who decides who the zeros are?

[NickB79]

271. I believe the EX500Rider was referring to binary code

IE future monetary transactions will be entirely electronic in nature via computer.

And if that's the case, the world's dominant economies will still likely stay in control just as they are now.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

272. It's just another way for the few to accumulate more.

[EX500rider]

275. The computer that's stores the 1's and 0's. lol n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

281. Uh huh....

[geek tragedy]

7. would you trade in your life savings for Venezuelan currency? nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. The way the dollar has been?

[geek tragedy]

21. is it your understanding that the dollar has been more volatile

than the VN bolivar, and that it has lost value relative to the bolivar?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Used to be a time when you could pay for something that was one Euro with one Dollar and get change.

[geek tragedy]

26. Sure, 17 years ago. nt

[EX500rider]

9. "your money is no good here'

That's because their money is no good here...

Yes, we don't take Venezuelan Bolivars in the US. We also don't take Uzbek som or Costa Rican collones, etc, etc.. And neither does anyone else in the world outside of their countries.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. "Yes, we don't take Venezuelan Bolivars in the US."

Sure we do.

Ever been to a currency exchange?

[EX500rider]

34. Ever been to a currency exchange?

Sure, where they trade the useless money for dollars or Euros.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. The oil should make it worth SOMETHING. Right?

[EX500rider]

59. In small quantities yes. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. I know, one minute the oil is vital and the next it ain't all that.

[sabbat hunter]

73. however

Their currency is not backed by their oil. It is a fiat currency, just like the US dollar, the Euro, Yuan, Ruble, etc.

Therefore all their oil does not help their currency, which is bought and sold in US dollars.

[ChangoLoa]

157. It does help a lot.

For a latin-american government, the ability to "help your currency" depends on your reserves in dollars and euros.

But even with the oil boom, Venezuela can't keep up with the (nominal) growth of its budget. Deficit is 15% of the GDP, inflation is more than 50% and devaluation is constantly applied in order to release the pressure on the state budget.

[ChangoLoa]

154. The Venezuelan Bolivar is non-exchangeable outside Venezuela

Inside the country, there are quotas for buying foreign currency and multiple exchange rates. Exchange controls were implemented in 2003.

Official rate is now 6.3, black market is around 80 VEB/USD.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

161. And you can BET there are forces snatching up that cheap money....

And of course there's no motive to then make them worth more.

[ChangoLoa]

170. Exactly, the government controls the exchange system.

If the state agency approves your quota, you can convert 1 USD into 13! MAGIC!

In Venezuela, these people are called "bolibourgeoisie". However, you have to be part of the ruling party to enter that "lucky" group.

[PosterChild]

12. We "pulled" what? Anyone who wants to take a Venezuelan bolívar...

... is free to do so. No one wants them. Whose fault is that? The incompetents running the place. They have one of the world's largest oil supplies and still suffer 50%+ inflation along with shortages of basic commodities. Sheesh.

[Judi Lynn]

19. Apparently everything was A-OK with you when Ven.'s inflation was 103%

in the 1990's, before Chavez was inaugurated in February, 1999.

Any and all of those Presidents were peachy keen with this government, even when Pres. Carlos Andres Perez, who was later impeached and moved away from his wife to live with his mistress in a condo he bought her in Miami, ordered his troops to go into the barrios where people were protesting the fact he had raised the cost of heating oil, transportation, and groceries beyond their ability to afford, and fire directly into the midst of them, leaving over 3,000 dead. The government claimed it only slaughtered 300, but people knew who was gone, and it most clearly was NOT 300. There were so many a bulldozer was required to roll many into a mass grave.

THAT is simply sweet to right-wingers. That's the ticket. You just wipe out those darker-skinned poor people and get rid of them, and there is NEVER a peep of disapproval, NEVER, from the walking dead assholes of the right-wing. That President, by the way, who stole the Venezuelan taxpayers blind, who ordered the infamous "El Caracazo" Massacre, continued to be a hero to the very class of people you adore who are determined to put their monsters back to work getting all the oil profits back in the hands of the small group of professional criminals who ran the country in earlier days, before Chavez.

Media outlets have not noted that in the decade prior to Chavez’s elections, the average inflation rate was 52%, with peaks of 81% (1989) and 103% (1996).

Violence in Venezuela: the myths versus facts
Wednesday, March 5, 2014
By Federico Fuentes
https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56008

[ChangoLoa]

159. Inflation is a comparative statistic. In the 90's other Lat Am countries had even more inflation.

In 2014, Venezuela holds the world record.

[EX500rider]

240. "the very class of people you adore"

The only adoring around here is you for the Chavista's, no matter what they do or how fast they run the country into the ground.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. "Whose fault is that?"

I guess the people for voting for socialism.

That'll teach em for wanting schools and hospitals.

[smokey775]

42. No, the people voting for what they thought would be a competent leader,

President Maduro was a big disappointment to those that voted for him, even the poor, his base, are now protesting against him.
It seems that his blaming everyone for the problems of Venezuela but the govt is wearing mighty thin.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. It's not THAT. The aim of the US to make sure Socialism NEVER has a success story.

[smokey775]

49. OK!!!!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

139. You've never HEARD that before?

[smokey775]

143. Ad Nauseous.

But that still doesn't mean the US is trying to overthrow the Maduro govt.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

146. Why wouldn't it? It's considered a threat.

[smokey775]

152. But the US isn't threatening Maduro with a coup.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

162. Didn't you watch the Democracy Now! clip?

[smokey775]

164. Why? It's just the same ole same ole as VenezuelaAnalysis.com

or Eva Golinger.
The usual "blame the US for all of the world's problems" crap.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

166. LOL! Guess we're DONE if you refuse to accept facts.

[smokey775]

168. Who's facts?

Each side has it's "facts", some are more believable than others.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

195. Contrary to popular belief, you can't vote for reality.

[Zorra]

191. Are we seeing a pattern here?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

194. I think it's plaid.

[EX500rider]

137. I know, our constant attempts to over throw Sweden MUST STOP!! lol n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

140. I should specify our efforts are on THIS side of the pond.

[EX500rider]

241. So we hate Socialism based on what side of a ocean it is on? That's your position? n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

247. Ever hear of the Monroe Doctrine?

[EX500rider]

253. Yes, and I don't think it has a anti-socialist clause. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

259. I see Western Hemesphere History is new to you.

[EX500rider]

261. You see wrong. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

269. Summarize how it's been abused.

[EX500rider]

273. Assigning homework now? No thanks. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

279. It ain't hard.

[EX500rider]

280. Right after you learn some economic theories so you'll understand where Venz. problems are. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

282. I already outlined them.

[EX500rider]

284. Right, the ghost of the Nixon administration or something...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

286. BZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong answer.

[S_B_Jackson]

200. My company used to do business in Venezuela....

unfortunately, Venzuelan laws make it nearly impossible to obtain payment for goods and services outside of VZ - essentially, no credit can be offered and equipment owned by our company would not be returned to our control. So we ate our losses, and no business to VZ businesses.

They pull the same crap with European businesses, so EU businesses no longer do business with them. And other South American and Central American businesses with the same result. They can't be trusted, so no one does business with them and they're left to stew in the pressure cooker of their own making.

We didn't pull the "your money is no good here"....they did.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

203. Actually, the money changers did.

[S_B_Jackson]

205. No, the Venezuelan government...(PDVSA) did

by stealing equipment that wasn't theirs and refusing to pay valid and justifiable usage charges for that equipment beyond the number of free days that were allowed by the contract.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

206. You work for the oil industry?

[smokey775]

207. It's a matter of record.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/national_world&id=9310641

Venezuela's govt. seizes control of Houston energy company oil rigs

AP

Caracas, Venezuela -- Venezuela has quietly seized control of two oil rigs owned by a unit of Houston-based Superior Energy Services after the company shut them down because the state oil monopoly was months behind on payments.

The seizure took place Thursday after a judge in the state of Anzoategui, accompanied by four members of the local police and national guard, entered a Superior depot and ordered it to hand over control of two specialized rigs to an affiliate of PDVSA, the state-owned oil producer.

PDVSA justified the equipment's expropriation, calling it essential to the South American nation's development and welfare, according to a court order obtained by The Associated Press. Company workers were instructed to load the rigs, known as snubbing units and used to repair damaged casing, onto trucks to be deployed at "critical wells" elsewhere, according to the document.

"It was like a thief breaking into your house, asking for the keys to the safe and then expecting you to help carry it away," Jesus Centeno, local operations manager for Superior in the city of Anaco, said by phone. "Their argument was that we were practically sabotaging national production."

This is the reason most companies won't do business with the Venezuelan govt, they have a problem paying their bills and stealing equipment.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

208. Did you know under some communist takeovers that all land deeds and contracts are null and void?

[smokey775]

209. So, you approve of the Venezuelan govt not paying their bills and stealing the equipment

of foreign companies?

I was under the impression that Venezuelan govt was socialist, not communist, am I mis-informed?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

211. Do you remember the uproar when the railroads were nationalized?

[smokey775]

213. Why won't you answer the question?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

215. I am NOT outraged by this. Should I be?

Lots of stuff happens when a government is in turmoil.

It gets sorted out at the end after things calm down and I am NOT going to cry a bitter tear over an oil company getting screwed.

[smokey775]

216. Y'all will find any excuse for this govt. won't you?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

217. You seem to have an unnatural hatred for it.

[smokey775]

218. I have a deep dislike for corruption,

which the Maduro govt. is riddled with, but, I'll give Maduro his due, he hasn't seized the assets of foreign businesses, that was all Chavez.

[S_B_Jackson]

223. And Maduro is Chavez' handpicked successor.....

which means that he owns the blame every bit as much as you're trying to shove it all off on your boy Hugo.

And because this government continues to willfully derive benefit from that which it has stolen from others, it is in large measure why Venezula finds itself a pariah nation which no one willingly does eqitable business with. If VZ wants something it has to pay in advance for it with petroleum...often at a significantly greater "price" than it should as it has to overcome their business partner's well-warranted distrustfulness.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

224. Chavez could have done a lot more but didn't.

[S_B_Jackson]

226. Based on the current situation, I'd say that Chavez did more than enough...

to leave Venezuela digging out for decades yet.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

229. You really are going overboard....

Inflation (which has dropped of late) and the murder rate are the only two negative indicators.

This is why police were backed up by uniformed soldiers and the murder rate has dropped too.

[Judi Lynn]

230. Have never seen these stats represented visually. Hard to ignore! Thanks. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

231. No problem.

[smokey775]

234. Chavez did too damn much,

that's why foreign businesses are loathe to set up shop in Venezuela, they're afraid that they won't get paid and their businesses will be stolen out from under them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

235. Naw, that's because of the "commie" hysterics.

[EX500rider]

242. No, it's because of the stealing. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

248. I can hear the oil companies now saying, "That's OUR job!"

[EX500rider]

254. I know, wanting to get paid and to get their equip. back....the nerve!! lol n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

257. Shame that they don't own the joint.

[EX500rider]

262. Don't think oil services companies are interested in that mess. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

265. Oh sure, the oil companies all pulled out after that article came out.

[NickB79]

277. Venezuela's oil production has been declining for 15 years now

Despite record-high oil prices at the same time:



While it's clear oil companies haven't pulled out enough to utterly destroy their oil industry, the lack of new investment has clearly been hurting their economy over the long term. Just look at the boom in US domestic oil production in comparison, where US oil production was in decline even longer than Venezuela's before new investments brought it roaring back.

And when you consider that oil revenues make up such a massive part of Venezuela's economy, their inability to reverse this decline is where things get really scary.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

285. Eegadds!!! They aren't pulling it ALL out at once!!! Proof they're total FAILURES!!!

[S_B_Jackson]

210. Not in the manner that you're implying, no.

I work in the chemical transport industry - specifically parcel tank and iso-container transportation.
But nice try...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

214. I asked. That's all.

[S_B_Jackson]

221. And that's why you though you had a "Gotcha!" moment?

You've been asked several times why you think that it's acceptable for the Venezuelan government to have stolen equipment and valid fees for services provided. Are you going to answer that? Or are you still intent upon blaming everyone and everything else for the unsavory stew that Venezuela has created by and for itself and its citizenry?

[Judi Lynn]

222. And who are you, right-wing thread cop? Do not hover over the poster.

If you aim to communicate with people, stop harassing them.

That will simply get you ignored a lot of the time, as it should.

[S_B_Jackson]

225. I'm engaging in conversation, and hardly "hovering"...

indeed if you read through this thread I think that the only poster you could accuse of that is the one you believe yourself to be intervening to protect. I've seen no evidence that Spitfire needs that, why do you assume that he/she does?

[EX500rider]

243. "If you aim to communicate with people, stop harassing them." LOL! REALLY!?!?

Coming from somebody who calls EVERYBODY who doesn't have a Chavista crush a "RW fascist" that's rich....lol

[Spitfire of ATJ]

227. "Gotcha? No. More like a "WTF?" moment....

They explained in the article you posted. You may not LIKE the explanation but it was.

I guess it depends on what you value more. The rights of people or of property.

[S_B_Jackson]

228. What article did I post?

I think you and Judi Lynn have me confused with someone else.

I personally regard both the rights of people and property as having intrinsic value. I've expressed one reason why some of the stolen property is endangering the lives and welfare of the people of Venezuela. Too there is the long-term effect of a lack of trust which will inhibit for many, many years the economic recovery of the people of Venezuela. Many neighboring states are only willing to do business with them at well beyond arm's distance, and require all of the normal precautions and surcharges that one employs in dealing with a known deadbeat.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

232. funny how the trust level is keyed to Right wing or Left.

[EX500rider]

244. No, it's keyed to "pays"/"doesn't pay"

[Spitfire of ATJ]

250. More like "Who gets propped up and who doesn't".

[EX500rider]

251. Right...you think oil services companies in Houston care about "propping up" or making money? n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

263. LOL! You think private companies are like countries?

[EX500rider]

264. No I don't but you sure seem to. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

266. THEY think they are. They sure bought the Republicans.

[Justina For Justice]

111. Venezuela Is Not Near Bankruptcy or Unable to Pay Its Debts.

This poster is spreading more baseless anti-Venezuelan propaganda.

According to economist, Mark Weisbrot, as reported in the Huffington Post in November of 2013 (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/long-awaited-apocalypse-n_b_4235481.html ):

For more than a decade people opposed to the government of Venezuela -- which today includes almost all major Western media outlets -- have argued that the Venezuelan economy would implode. Like communists in the 1930s rooting for the final crisis of capitalism, they generally saw Venezuela's economic collapse as just around the corner. How frustrating it has been for them to witness only two recessions: one directly caused by the opposition's oil strike (December 2002-May 2003) and one brought on by the world recession (2009 and the first half of 2010). Despite these recessions, the whole decade's economic performance -- the government got control of the national oil company in 2003 - turned out quite well, with average annual growth of real income per person of2.7 percent, poverty reduced by more than half, and large gains for the majority in employment, access to health care, pensions, and education….

But how can a government with more than $90 billion in oil revenue end up with a balance of payments crisis? Well, the answer is, it can't, and won't. In 2012 Venezuela had$93.6 billion in oil revenues, and total imports in the economy -- which were at record high levels - were $59.3 billion. The current account was in surplus to the tune of $11 billion, or 2.9 percent of GDP. Interest payments on the public foreign debt, which is the most important measure of public indebtedness, were just $3.7 billion. This government is not going to run out of dollars. The Bank of America's analysis of Venezuela last month recognized this, and decided as a result that Venezuelan government bonds were a good buy."

In short, don't buy the right-wing's anti-Venezuelan BS. The right wing, the local and international capitalists, are fomenting trouble in the streets because they can't win in fair elections. They are hoarding goods and re-selling them in Colombia at enormous profits, as well as paying small groups of street thugs to cause chaos in the streets (with funding from the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy to do so.)

The U.S. is trying to carry out a Chile-like coup in Venezuela. The U.S. wants Venezuelan oil, just as with Iraq.

[Peace Patriot]

122. Thank you! Actual facts are quite helpful.

nt

[Judi Lynn]

124. It's such a pleasure when a factual article makes it through the wall of crap.

There's no doubt the sentient ones here can gain important insight from taking a look at this article.

It's most clearly an article to examine, and to keep for later reference.

Love the last paragraph:

Meanwhile, the poverty rate dropped by 20 percent in Venezuela last year. It is almost certainly the largest decline in poverty in the Americas for 2012, and one of the largest - if not the largest - in the world. The numbers are available on the web site of the World Bank, but almost no journalists have made the arduous journey through cyberspace to find and report them. Ask them why they missed it.

Good idea!

Thanks for the posting.

[hack89]

128. Venezuela Bonds Plunge After Bolivar Weakened for Travel

Venezuelan bonds plunged to the lowest in more than two years after the government announced the latest partial devaluation of the bolivar, this time for airlines and foreign direct investment. Venezuelans traveling abroad, airlines and foreigners sending remittances home must use a secondary exchange rate determined at weekly auctions, Economy Vice President Rafael Ramirez said yesterday. The rate set at the latest auction was 11.36 bolivars per dollar, compared with the official rate of 6.3. Airlines operating in Venezuela fell and one carrier suspended flights.

The partial devaluation comes as the government attempts to halt a hemorrhaging of dollars that has pushed international reserves to a 10-year low. The announcement came on the same day that the country’s largest private food producer, Empresas Polar SA, said it can’t import more raw materials because authorities are delaying the release of dollars.

“The government has done too little and too late to reduce the currency distortions,” Alejandro Grisanti, economist at Barclays Plc said by telephone from New York yesterday. “This partial devaluation means more money printing by the central bank to finance the government.”

Without access to dollars at the official rate, many companies and individuals turn to the illegal black market, where the bolivar weakened from 74 to 79 per dollar after yesterday’s announcements, according to dolartoday.com, a website that tracks the exchange rate on the Colombian border.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-22/venezuela-devalues-bolivar-for-airlines-remittances.html

They have serious problems. When a country devalues its currency seven time in eleven years and has inflation over 50%, it has really big issues.

[hack89]

129. If the value of your money dropped 50% a year, 4% a month, 1% a week

what would you do? The answer to that question explains why the government is running out of dollars as their foreign reserves plunge.

[NickB79]

276. Mark Weisbrot isn't exactly an unbiased source in this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110811121

Brilliant tribute to Hugo Chavez by Mark Weisbrot!

His admiration for Chavez appears to go far beyond mere journalistic respect.

[EX500rider]

283. "The U.S. wants Venezuelan oil, just as with Iraq.' Just where do you think they send their oil now?

The United States is the largest importer of Venezuela's oil exports.

Ever hear of Citgo?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

290. Right Wingers believe THEY are the ONLY ones who make money.....

We Liberal types are a bunch of lazy hippies who only believe in handouts.

That is, until the Right talks about rich Liberals.

[Judi Lynn]

297. They can't remember they even do that, don't realize the conflict. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

298. Makes it hilarious to see things like McCain at Sturgis hanging around with bikers.

[Judi Lynn]

299. Hope he remembered to invite the Sturgis crowd to visit him

at his place in Arizona.

What fun it would be to see his new friends making themselves at home there.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

300. Really....

[EX500rider]

8. "so we cut off their supplies"

How did we do that and still be Venz.'s largest export and import partner?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Try buying Pampers there.....

Oh wait,...there's no market for that because nobody is having a baby.

[EX500rider]

38. "there's no market for that because nobody is having a baby."

No ones having a baby where?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. Haven't you heard?

It's all "supply and demand" "Invisible Hand of the Free Market".

Right?

People in Venezuela are "different". There's no market there for American goods. Ya know?

Just like there was no market in the old Soviet Union for Levis.

[EX500rider]

63. Companies who ship pampers want to be paid in dollars..

.....and Venz. doesn't have enough of those.
They was no market for rubles either.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. Did they GIVE us their oil FOR FREE?

[EX500rider]

70. No and they won't get any pampers for free either. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

75. Just passed right by,...didn't it....

My point is, they aren't surviving on wicker baskets and clay pots.

They HAVE money.

As in US DOLLARS from OIL they SOLD us that we PAID FOR with US DOLLARS.

[EX500rider]

79. But they don't have enough. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

81. ????

[EX500rider]

88. Dollars....Venz has a hard currency shortage. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Does their oil have commie cooties?

[EX500rider]

95. No, they sell all the oil they can but still don't have enough hard currency left over. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

97. Ah! But if the election went the other way they would. Right?

[smokey775]

101. Maybe, maybe not.

It would depend on the economic policy's of a new govt.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

103. Right Wing. IOW: World Bank Pre-Approved

[smokey775]

106. Aaaaand, the RW accusation again.

You don't disappoint.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

108. I didn't accuse YOU of being a RWer. That's what he ran against.

Check this out:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/venezuelan_protests_another_attempt_by_us

[smokey775]

112. Ok, I'll accept that you didn't accuse me of being a RW'er and I apologize.

It doesn't change the fact that the Maduro govt has so dicked up the country that they've now lost the poor vote and will be extremely lucky to be re-elected in the next elections.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

114. Uh huh, and according to CPAC Obama sucks too. I question the reporting.

[smokey775]

116. CPAC?

I thought we were talking about the effed up situation in Venezuela?

Who gives a fuck what CPAC is saying? Unless you do, I haven't a clue what they're about.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

117. You seem to have a problem with comparisons.

[Judi Lynn]

125. George Ciccariello-Maher is excellent. So is Democracy Now. Thank you. n/t

[EX500rider]

133. Possibly if the new administration was more competent then this one...

....but there is no plot afoot to keep dollars out of Venz, just rampant mismanagement and poorly thought out currency controls with high inflation....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

134. You don't believe sabotage is a factor?

[EX500rider]

135. If you mean self-sabotage by inept government then yes. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

138. How about forces from within that are breaking the law?

[EX500rider]

142. Examples? n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

144. Learn to use "The Google"....

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10160

[smokey775]

145. Again with the pro Venezuelan govt link.

http://venezuelanalysis.com

[Spitfire of ATJ]

148. I see. I should make sure I post stuff from CNN....

Right?

No bias there.

[snooper2]

233. You should go watch VICE reporting on Venezuela

Your misguiding rants are fun to watch but so uninformed...

Things are only going to get worse there so you should go ahead and include that in your meme for the coming 6-12 months

[Spitfire of ATJ]

236. You mean the one where they interview the Putin loyalists?

[EX500rider]

150. Toady blogs not news source. n/t

......

[smokey775]

40. That's the thread winner for the most ridiculous answer.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. This is...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/09/24/vene-s24.html

[smokey775]

44. WSWS.org?

Could you reference a more biased site?
Yeah, they're real neutral!!!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. Neutral is boring.

[smokey775]

50. And so are you with your almost god like defense of Pres. Maduro.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

53. LOL!!! What is with acting like the choice is either hate or worship?

That's the kind of thing we get from right wingers claiming we actually WORSHIP Obama, as in, having a SHRINE in the home and bowing before it chanting, "give us hope, give us change".




Okay,....maybe a few over at the BOG.

[smokey775]

54. Was wondering when the reference to right wingers would come in.

You did not disappoint.

Are you, or, are you not defending the mess that Maduro has made of the economy of Venezuela?
Are you blaming the US for that mess, despite the total lack of evidence of US involvement?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. I blame the Capitalists who have decided to smash this experiment in Socialism.

[smokey775]

67. So, I guess you're denying that the poor,

the base of Maduro's govt, are now joining the protests because of the dire conditions inside Venezuela?

If you have the evidence of US or Capitalists attempting to over throw the elected govt. please, by all means, link to it, of course, once again, credible sources.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. You know WHY? Because they have had SHORTAGES....

Remember the old Soviet Union "five year plans"? That was when they promised the people they would have things like refrigerators.

American companies could have sold them refrigerators.

Oh wait,...they couldn't. Could they.

Here are customers wanting products and they can't get them and I'm saying it's a result of the fact that these people chose to vote for someone who wasn't bought off.

[smokey775]

74. Where are the links?

Yeah, Maduro wasn't bought off, he's just a home grown buffoon who should have stuck to bus driving, which, from what I understand, he was quite good at, but, as leader as a nation, quite frankly, he sucks at.

I see that your still pushing the meme that this is all a US plot to keep poor Venezuelan's down, despite the clear evidence that this is the results of poor economic planning by the Venezuelan govt.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

77. Tell you what, have them elect Dick Cheney. I'm sure everything will work out just fine for them....

True,....there will be a small article about some commies getting killed but it'll only be a few,....hundred.

[smokey775]

86. Dick Cheney?

You mean the same Dick Cheney that shot his hunting partner in the face?
No thanks.
Back in the early 2000's, I served with his nephew, he was embarrassed to be related to him.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

118. Why do I get the idea you are new to politics?

[smokey775]

120. Not new, but, maybe a little naive.

That being said, I'm also not stupid to the problems in various nations, and, I reject the usual meme that the US is to blame for all the world's ill's.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. All Superpowers have sucked over the years....

Now that we are the last one we should voluntarily STOP especially since the US has promoted Capitalism which promotes GREED and that ain't a virtue.

[EX500rider]

151. "American companies could have sold them refrigerators."

No they couldn't because the ruble was useless out side the Warsaw pact.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

163. I suppose you believe the Soviets WANTED it that way.

[EX500rider]

165. Did they want their money to be useless? probably not but it was none-the-less. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

167. It was a decision by the West to refuse to accept their economic model....

As a result they had to produce everything themselves.

That's tough when your country is mostly pine trees.

[smokey775]

171. Because their economic model was a disaster in the long run,

as evidenced by constant food shortages, long lines at stores, substandard products, massive mismanagement of agriculture.

There was an old Soviet saying that went like this: "The govt pretends to pay us, so we'll pretend to work". Pretty much sums up their whole economic system.

I guess that's also the fault of the US, right?

[EX500rider]

172. "It was a decision by the West to refuse to accept their economic model."

You mean because it didn't work and even they scrapped it after trying for 80 years to make it work.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

177. It didn't work because it was a Police State....

They also turned it into a JOKE over the years.

The idea that your boss at the factory was a "comrade" in a revolution your great-grandfather was a part of. Then there was the sight of the rest of the world becoming modern while you were expected to live in a glorious past. The government wasn't taken seriously outside of Moscow.

Then, of course, since it was a police state that meant you had to get a travel permit to do things like visit your parents.

After 9/11 there were Republicans who wanted to set that up here.

Border crossings with guys in uniform and machine guns at every state line.

[EX500rider]

187. "It didn't work because it was a Police State...."

Always some excuse of why communism never works in large scale. Of course it was a police state, that's the only way people take to communism on a large scale...at the point of a gun.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

192. Yeah, just like Capitalism.

[EX500rider]

196. No, not at all like that. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

197. You haven't bought that whole "Capitalism = Freedom" lie, have you?

[EX500rider]

198. It's an economic system, not political and has proved to be much superior..

.....to communism in creating wealth.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

287. For the few.

[EX500rider]

289. No, for the masses. the # of people who live on under a dollar a day drops every year.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

291. Oh yeah,....that "trickle down" thing has been a wild success.

[EX500rider]

245. "That's tough when your country is mostly pine trees." lol

Yeah, not much natural resorces in a country that stretches 12 times zones.....lol

[Spitfire of ATJ]

255. A lot of it in permafrost. On the bright side it's a great place if you're looking for Mammoths.

[EX500rider]

260. Or oil/natural gas or minerals, or timber maybe? n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

270. Bears. Hence their old symbol...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. Easy, cut off imports....

Then you have asshole business owners in country who hate Chavez who purposely create shortages of things like MILK.

[hack89]

29. Nobody cut off imports. Nt

[smokey775]

30. Nobodys cut off imports,

we still take their crappy crude oil, refine it, send it back to them which in turn, they send to China to pay off those loans from China.

This isn't a US made economic mess, this is all home grown by an incompetent fool of president Maduro.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. Gee, guess he should stick to driving a bus.

[smokey775]

33. Gee, maybe he should have,

because, gee, he sure as hell doesn't know how to run a country.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. He reached out to the political right and got his hand slapped.

[smokey775]

52. While at the same time,

turning his national guard units, police, and militias loose to suppress the protesters.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. Did you follow the situation in Haiti?

Our media reported it as a popular uprising when it was nothing of the sort.

I take EVERY report out of Venezuela with one of these:

[smokey775]

62. Gee, I thought we were talking about the ineptness of Maduro in Venezuela,

not Haiti.

And, JFTR, I take anything you and the Venezuelan govt apologists,

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Fine. Keep up with the corporate media narrative. You'll sleep soundly.

[smokey775]

68. Corporate media narrative?

Translation: I lost the debate, now I engage with personal attacks.

I sleep very soundly and peacefully thank you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

72. You call this a "debate?"

[smokey775]

76. Yes, I do, one that you are losing very badly.

But, don't dispair, I'll bet that we agree on 99.99% of the other issues on this site.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. Frankly, I don't see where all the hate for this guy came from except from the manner of reporting.

[smokey775]

80. I don't hate him personally,

I'll bet one on one, he's quite charming, what I hate is what he's doing to the fine people of
Venezuela, especially the poor, who are the hardest hit by his govts. economic policies.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

84. Don't you know socialism leads to misery? Just look at,...uh,...Venezuela.

[smokey775]

87. In this case, yeah, it did.

But, then again, this isn't true Socialism, is it?

[EX500rider]

141. Well the problem here is you can't argue this subject with people who have a...

....serious lack of understanding of economics.

[smokey775]

147. So it would seem.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. Not by our standards....

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/07/vene-j07.html

Guess how THAT went?

[smokey775]

104. This again?

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/07/vene-j07.html

Get back to me when you have a credible source.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

105. Like The Wall Street Journal?

[smokey775]

107. You're flailing really badly now.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

109. Go check out the link to Democracy Now.

[EX500rider]

37. The shortages are caused by simple economics...

....rigid price controls with rampant inflation is what causes those shortages. You can't buy for 1 dollar, be forced to sell for $.80 by govt price controls and then inflation drives the replacement costs up to 1.50 and stay in business long. You either fold, go black-market or sell across the border.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

51. They revealed there was market manipulation by political opponents.

[EX500rider]

60. "They" huh? Must be true then........... n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

64. Oh yeah, that's right. Buncha commies. Can't trust em.

[EX500rider]

188. Gee, the government blamed the problem on someone else you say?

Who ever heard of such a thing!! lol

[Spitfire of ATJ]

193. All the comforts of home.

[PosterChild]

10. We "cut off" their supplies? What a joke...

... one of the world's largest oil supplies and "they*" can't manage to provide even the basics. The incompetence is staggering.

*The Venezuela political class and administration.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. The U.S. motto should be: "Regime-change tactics - It's what we do!" nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. I especially like the "School Of The Americas" during Reagan...

They taught right wing officers in Latin American countries to do things like pal around with the rank and file to identify the most popular guy in the group. You know, the guy like Sergeant Saunders.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_odIpZKMGCf4/TKkcKSpRolI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/EEJBxS8HwyY/s1600/Saunders+Thompson+Eyes.jpg

Once you find that guy you see to it that he gets killed,..like,....real messy like..

Then you blame it on the enemy and watch your soldiers fight like crazy for revenge.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

91. Yup, set up the situation, then blame it on the other side and voila!!

Isn't the U.S. just delightful? And let's not leave behind the mega-rich of those countries, who bend over ever-so-nicely to the U.S. in order to continue to exploit and live in splendor.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. That's the reason we like Right Wing Dictators....

True Leftists can't be bought because they lack that "greed" thing.

[EX500rider]

249. "Isn't the U.S. just delightful?" Yes, it is.

Oh, wait, I forgot this administration is apparently responsible for every bad thing the US ever did going back to to the 1900's.

I am curious, can we apply that standard to other countries like Russia, Germany or Japan?

Or is the US special that way?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

256. I don't know. Do you live in Russia, Germany or Japan? nt

[EX500rider]

258. Oh, we can only comment on the country we live in, is that it? lol

Do you live in Venz. or the Ukraine or Russia?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

268. Hmm.. let's see... Do you have more experience with Russia, Germany, Japan, Venez., Ukraine? nt

[EX500rider]

274. Some of those yes...do you?

I've been to over 40 countries including the former Soviet Union, lived in Latin America and Europe for years....what's your point, only you are allowed to have a opinion?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

278. Hmm... I was born abroad, my grandparents are from other countries, I lived in still 2 other

countries, I'm fairly well versed in the history of various countries.

I suppose we're even-steven.

Also, I never said you can't have an opinion. Of course you can have an opinion, and do. Everyone has opinions.

I do believe that you often tend to display rather ethnocentric, narrow-minded views, wearing blinders that cause you to see the U.S. as some possessing some kind of God-given right or jurisdiction over the rest of the world, and frankly, my opinion is that you aren't sufficiently knowledgeable to make most calls that you do. That said, you may opine all you desire, as I just did.

[EX500rider]

288. Really?

I do believe that you often tend to display rather ethnocentric, narrow-minded views, wearing blinders that cause you to see the U.S. as some possessing some kind of God-given right or jurisdiction over the rest of the world, and frankly, my opinion is that you aren't sufficiently knowledgeable to make most calls that you do

Ethnocentric? Examples?

Narrow minded? Examples?

Not sufficiently knowledgeable? Just what did i take in college and what is my IQ? No idea I bet...

And some people think blaming the current administration for all the crimes of past both republican and cold war administrations is silly and slows a lack of critical thinking skills. But feel free.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

293. Hmm... I don't blame the current administration for the disasters which began in the 1980s

with the Republicans.

However, ethnocentric? Narrow-minded? I think you could review the posts.

[smokey775]

93. Oh,now we're going back to the Reagan years

and the now defunct School of Americas?
You're really reaching now, hope you didn't throw out a muscle reaching that far.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

94. I could go back to the Monroe Doctrine if you wish...

Or how about the Banana Wars?

[smokey775]

98. Yeah, let's go back to 1947 to prove that the US is now responsible

for the corruption inside Venezuela in 2014.

I wish you could realize how far out you sound now.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

102. You act like it's impossible....

After 911 the US was focused on the Middle East to the point where several countries deposed our right wing puppets and installed some actual liberal types. Look at Uruguay. They put the former regime on trial.

There are those who will not be happy until Venezuela is run by a rich bastard who hates the poor for being poor.

[smokey775]

110. Maybe you should be posting in the CT section?

Because, so far, you've provided no proof that the USA is behind the current problems inside Venezuela, other than past history, which isn't indicitive of present behavior, especially with President Obama at the helm.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

113. Give it up. I posted a link to Democracy Now where they expose our funding the Right Wing.

[smokey775]

115. Democracy Now?

Just as biased as VenezuelaAnalysis.com. or, Faux Snooze.

[Judi Lynn]

126. You should know by know your mud-slinging carries no weight.

Democracy Now has ALWAYS been a very respected program due to the fact it's truthful.

That's something fascists would have trouble with, that's why they would throw their pitiful slurs against the journalists there, when they feel up to it. You should realize Democrats wouldn't be able to believe you, as they know better.

[smokey775]

136. Mud slinging? Coming from you?

[Judi Lynn]

99. The very same organization has never been defunct.

It has never been on vacation, it has never been downsized.

Everyone knows that.

You are simply in the wrong business trying to mislead people here. You have only the other right-wing cluster buckers who obsessively stick their heads into conversations to disrupt.

[smokey775]

100. Then post the links that the School of Americas still exists.

BTW, still posting photo shopped pics?

[Judi Lynn]

119. Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation

The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), formerly known as the US Army School of the Americas,[1][2] is a United States Department of Defense Institute located at Fort Benning near Columbus, Georgia, that provides military training to government personnel of Latin American countries.

The school was founded in 1946 and from 1961 was assigned the specific goal of teaching "anti-communist counterinsurgency training," a role which it would fulfill for the rest of the Cold War.[3] In this period, it educated several Latin American dictators, generations of their military and, during the 1980s, included the uses of torture in its curriculum.[4][5] In 2000/2001, the institute was renamed to WHINSEC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation

What's really bogus here are the conspicuous right-wingers posturing as Democrats. Everyone can smell them a mile away.

[smokey775]

121. Aaaand there it is again.

Anyone who doesn't toe to your line of thinking MUST be a Right Winger.

Still posting those photo shopped pics Judi Lynn?

[Judi Lynn]

127. Go get that link, and post it, so people can see who made that claim,

and why you think echoing it is going to cast doubt on my posts, and there will be more room for you and your fellow cluster ####ers, and your right-wing spew.

Go get that photo, on that thread, and post it here. I will be happy to wait.

[smokey775]

153. That photo has been posted time and time again,

I've seen it using the Wayback machine, (search function), you can't hide from it.
I'm sure there are those here who are more skilled in finding and posting that photo than me.

[Judi Lynn]

173. When you didn't take the time to read the article with the photo, you showed DU'ers

you don't even take the time to read the information in Original Posts here, where you would have seen that photo at the top, and had more to discuss than repeating someone's claim it's photoshopped.'

The reason it has been posted here repeatedly is that it has been available publicly for many years.

You have no idea what the ARTICLE says, do you? You only echoed your fellow winger's attempt to avoid the article by attacking the photo.

Not a good sign, to ignore the posted article itself. No wonder you have such a distorted factual base from which to operate that you have to simply depend upon personal attacks.

Still, it wouldn't hurt to post that article, so others could see what you're attempting to discuss.

[smokey775]

175. No, I read the article and saw the photo shopped pic you posted,

when you were called on it, you didn't edit it or acknowledge that it was false.

[Judi Lynn]

178. Uh, huh. You don't seem to know what you're talking about, do you? n/t

[smokey775]

180. Here's the actual picture without the photo shopping.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110825587#post3

So, do you wish to retract now?

[Zorro]

176. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1108&pid=25587

[smokey775]

179. Thanks for finding that.

Wonder if she'll admit now that she posted a photo shopped picture?

[Zorro]

181. Ha ha ha

Suuure she will....

[smokey775]

182. Guess I should've added the sarcasm thingy.

[Judi Lynn]

184. And here YA go, Zorro! Taken right from the Caracas Chronicles, an anti-Chavez/Maduro site!

Spoiler Alert

Francisco Toro / February 17, 2014



There’s a lot of ferment right now, a lot of excitement, as a brand new generation of kids relearning, en cabeza propia all kinds of things that nobody ever learns en cabeza ajena.

Like Juan, I’ve seen this movie before. And so I sort of know how it ends. So – SPOILER ALERT – here are the seven lessons that today’s students are eventually going to figure out, but not before a huge amount of heartache and, well, just plain normal ache:

1.The one thing chavismo can’t do without is an enemy, preferably one that its followers can feel good about hating, a convincingly menacing yet objectively powerless enemy that helps mobilize grassroots support while presenting no real challenge to the governing elite’s power
2.You are the perfect enemy Seriously, you tick all the boxes.
3.They’re not repressing you because they’re scared of you, they’re repressing you because they have a long-term plan to build a fully authoritarian state and society. From their point of view, any event that gives them a pretext to advance that agenda is a feature, not a bug.
4.Nicolás Maduro can’t believe his luck that you started to guarimbear just when his mismanagement of the economy had gotten so bad it was starting to threaten the cohesion of the chavista coalition.
5.Anything that makes a protest in Antímano less likely makes the government stronger because the only thing the government really fears, the only thing that actually threatens the governing clique’s control of the state and its rents, is dissent in its natural base of support.
6.A guarimba in Altamira makes a protest in Antímano less likely, because it reinforces the Us vs. Them, el pueblo vs. la oligarquía framing that’s at the center of chavismo’s ultimate claim to legitimacy.

All of which brings us to the terrible realization people of my generation had towards the end of January, 2003, and which people of your generation are going to have in February or March of 2014:

Middle class protests in middle class areas on middle class themes by middle class people are not a challenge to the chavista power system, they’re part of the chavista power system.

This is really painful, but figuring it out is crucial. Chavismo doesn’t thrive despite this type of protest, it thrives because of it.

It will break your heart. It broke mine. But it’s important to see it clearly because, tragically, some people never do piece it together.

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/17/34988/

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
What do you have to say when your own foaming-at-the-mouth Chavez-hating website runs the very same photo, only many years EARLIER?????????

It really takes all kinds, unfortunately.

[Judi Lynn]

185. For anyone who's interested, give a hard squint at the images displayed

in a search regarding this little spoiled brat, and observe how practiced he is at playing to the camera in his "spontaneous" photo ops. It's hilarious:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS566US566&q=Leopoldo+L%C3%B3pez+protest+venezuela+hugo+chavez&tbm=isch

[Zorro]

186. Knew you couldn't/wouldn't apologize for posting Photoshopped images

And please put a hand across your mouth when responding.

All that spluttering spittle is unsanitary.

[Oele]

301. As i posted in the other thread:

That's the original, unedited photo, without the bottle-thrower.

There's a large open space left to Lopez where the bottle thrower is on the VTV version you posted originally.

It shows details of the background behind the smoke that are covered by the bottle throwing guy on the VTV photo.

Also, "years earlier" ?? The Caracas Chronicles article says "February 17, 2014".


Your VTV photo:


The same photo with the Aporrea version on top of it:



The same trick, with the Caracas Chronicles version:

[EX500rider]

149. "who obsessively stick their heads into conversations to disrupt."

People responding on a message board?!?! THE NERVE!!! lol

[Judi Lynn]

174. As is publicly displayed, the message board welcomes Democrats, progressives, liberals, etc.

We are all so aware of what it means, most especially the fascists who have been caught bragging about their efforts here on right-wing circle-jerks.

[smokey775]

183. That word "fascists"?

I don't think it means what you think it means.

[EX500rider]

189. Her definition seems to be" "anybody who has a different opinion then me". n/t

[Zorro]

199. Gotta put on your raincoat and galoshes

The spittle sure does fly when flubberlips encounters someone who doesn't share a passionate love of the Venezuelan government.

[geek tragedy]

6. Since the OAS turned out to be a good thing for VN, will they reinstate relations with Panama? nt

[FairWinds]

20. This is by no means the first time . .

that the U.S. has used economic destabilization tactics to
undermine democratically elected governments in Latin America and elsewhere.
Coming up is the 50th anniversary of the US-inspired & assisted military coup
in Brazil. Other victims have been Nicaragua, Chile and Cuba - and more.
Chile in the early 1970s was a well documented case study - Nixon and Kissinger pulled out all the
stops to destroy democracy and install a vicious military dictatorship.
The U.S. foreign policy elite has zero respect for democracy - nor do the
Venezuelan oligarchs sabotaging the economy.
In spite of all this, the average Venezuelan is far better off than just a few years ago.

[EX500rider]

36. "In spite of all this, the average Venezuelan is far better off than just a few years ago."

Which part is the better off part, the spiraling hyper-inflation, the worst murder rate in South America, the falling oil production, the brain drain, the capital drain, the lack of basic necessities in stores, the crumbling infrastructure, or the rampant corruption and cronyism?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

85. Absolutely! You summed it up perfectly. nt

[dlwickham]

32. but they still can't provide toilet paper and other basics to the people

I used to think this government was just corrupt. I was wrong-it's just inept.

[Mika]

155. So, its the govt's responsibility to provide toilet paper?

I'm heading out to the gubmint store to get me some.

[smokey775]

158. It's the govts. responsibility to assure that monetary policies are in place

to help businesses be able to supply the people with the basic needs.
Not happening here is it? The insane economic policies of the Maduro govt are whats causing this melt down, not the US govt, as many here claim.

[ChangoLoa]

169. Of course it is!

The Ven government fixes its price and allocates currency for imports. Even in a planned economy, the prices of goods made by the private sector need to be fixed at a level that covers the cost of production or import. If they aren't, then the state itself has to produce. Rules have to be clear, you can't expect a private producer to lose money voluntarily. The state needs to assume.

[Pterodactyl]

35. Takin' it to the streets!

[Judi Lynn]

294. Yeah, you betcha! Attadactyl!

Information we all knew long before even this article was written, reposted in order to help orient the unaware:

Weekend Edition June 9-11, 2007
Who's Pulling the Strings?

Behind Venezuela’s "Student Rebellion"
by GEORGE CICCARIELLO-MAHER

Caracas.

~snip~
Step One: Don’t Be Seen

Firstly, opposition parties made a clear decision to stay out of the spotlight, emphasizing the "independent" and "spontaneous" nature of the student protests. Beyond anything else, this gesture proves the degree to which the opposition has been discredited, garnering a reverse Midas touch through years of poor decisionmaking and supporting coups. From the beginning, the government was arguing that opposition politicians were behind the student mobilizations, and so when government-run channel 8 covered one of the early student demonstrations in Plaza Brion in Chacaito, the headline read "opposition demonstration disguised as a student demonstration."

This claim was perhaps justified by the appearance at the demonstration of Leopoldo López, mayor of opposition stronghold Chacao, formerly of far-right party Primero Justicia, which he more recently abandoned in favor of Manuel Rosales’ nominally social democratic Un Nuevo Tiempo. Opposition news channel Globovisión countered with the thoroughly unconvincing claim that López, 36 years old and an established politician, was a "youth leader." López himself wouldn’t help the situation when at a press conference he "accidentally" called for the students to employ "non-peaceful" tactics (he later claimed that he had meant to call for "non-violent" forms of protest).

That the "student leaders" are tied to the opposition is far from controversial: for example, spokesperson Yon Goicochea is a member of Primero Justicia and the aptly-named Stalin González belonged until recently to the strangest of opposition organizations, Bandera Roja. BR is a nominally Marxist-Leninist group which made the unlikely transition from a respectable guerrilla organization to the attack dogs of the far right, claiming to use the opposition as a vehicle to topple the fake communism of Chávez and institute a true dictatorship of the proletariat. But González recently revealed the extent of his opportunism by joining Rosales and Un Nuevo Tiempo. But the contours of the opposition’s hands-off strategy wouldn’t be fully clear until the revelation of a taped phone conversation in which Un Nuevo Tiempo leader Alfonso Marquina spoke of the need to remain in the background, but to pull the strings regardless: "Let’s mobilize all the kids We have a strategy as an organization Let’s mobilize all the kids, because you know {UCV student leader} Stalin {González} is our vice president here in Caracas Let’s mobilize the kids from the Catholic {University}We’ve decided that the politicians won’t intervene, that we’ll leave it to the kids in their natural environment. We’ll give them support, stick them in trucks If I go out there, they’ll say it’s the politicians that are calling the kids out."

"The only thing that can save us in this situation is if something extraordinary happens," replies Elías, an advisor to RCTV head Marcel Granier, on the leaked tape. It’s comments like this that lead the Vice President of the National Assembly Desiree Santos to argue that the political opposition to Chávez was "looking for a death" among the students, to "repeat the actions of 2002" in which pre-meditated deaths were inserted into a pre-fabricated media strategy to overthrow Chávez.

Santos continues: "We want to denounce today a campaign which intends to convince the country that these student protests are spontaneous, civil, peaceful, and democratic, but behind them there lies an entire conspiratorial apparatus. They are using these kids as cannon fodder…" It was little surprise, then, that when a student was indeed killed (but under circumstances unrelated to the protests), the opposition press immediately ran with the story, only later rectifying their erroneous reports that she had been shot by police. This convenient misreporting even led to the story reaching the pages of Spain’s El País.

More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/06/09/behind-venezuela-s-quot-student-rebellion-quot/

[Pterodactyl]

295. You're awesome at copying and pasting.

[FairWinds]

39. You do not address the issue . .

of well documented U.S. (and corporate) economic destabilization. Is it because you don't know
any of that history? Or because it is convenient for you at this time to pretend you don't know?
Google is your friend !!

[smokey775]

41. You say well documented?

Ok, post those links that this is a US made economic melt down.
I mean, from credible sources, not links from VenezuelaAnalysis.com, Eva Golinger, etc, which are well known mouth pieces of the Venezuelan Govt.

[EX500rider]

69. I've asked this before and got no answer, I'll try again..

.....what other countries can we use their past history as a gauge of what they must be doing now?

Germany?
They out to gas the Jews and take over the world still?

Japan?
Out to create another "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere."?

Or it just the USA we can apply this to? "American Anti-exceptional" lol

[FairWinds]

83. Well, um . .

Hey "Ex", know anything at all about the 2002 coup?
Where is Condi to testify when we need her?

[smokey775]

92. And just WTF does the 2002 coup attempt have to do with the current

conditions inside Venezuela?
I know you all like to point to that as evidence that the US is trying to overthrow the Venezuelan govt in 2014, but, guess what, Bush is no longer in power and, there is no evidence that the Pres. Obama is trying overthrow the Venezuelan govt.

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

131. Yeah,they just gave up and went away...... Reality check badly needed!!!!!!

Aren't the same people involved??? If it was so totalitarian do you think those people would be free to set up the same situation ? If there was no OIL involved do you think there 'd be any interest in Venezuela .......leave them be as like it or not it's their business and the USA should butt out!!!! It's their oil and let them exploit it the way they like....don't be so patronising ....

[Theyletmeeatcake2]

132. Also as if the USA has never done this before....I laughed when Kerry criticised Russia..:)

Is there a country that has been left alone when a leftist government gets elected....seems plenty of RW governments are brought in by uprisings in South America.....by chance perhaps??? Lol

[Zorra]

156. Washington sponsors the leaders of the RW Opposition, and then has the unmitigated gall to

say "Only Venezuelans can find the solutions to Venezuela's problems..."

The lies, deception, hypocrisy, and pernicious imperialism that have been institutionalized within our 1% owned government are sickening.

We totally need to get the money out of our government.

Sanders/Warren 2016

[smokey775]

160. Then why are the poor now joining the protest.

This "US is at the root of all Venezuela's problems" meme? Guess what? It ain't flying anymore, even with the majority of Venezuelan's, including the poor, the base of Maduro's govt.

It would seem that the more the truth comes out about the corruption and ineptness of the Venezuelan govt, the more their defenders become desperate to smear the legitimate questions of the citizens, everything is now labeled as a RW talking point, or we're accused of supporting a RW coup, despite the fact that NO ONE can point to one post calling for a coup.

[Zorra]

190. It appears that you lack background information on this subject.

I can help.

This protest is primarily a RW coup attempt, and by supporting it, you are supporting a RW coup attempt. Yes, there are probably some poor RWers protesting in Venezuela, of course. Despite repeated invitations by the Government, the RW opposition has refused to engage in dialogue, and does not want to meet with the government, because they are intent on fomenting a RW coup, and a peaceful solution to the unrest is totally contrary to their goals.

Late Friday in Washington, the Organization of American States approved a declaration that rejected violence and called for justice for the 21 people the government says have died in weeks of street protests. The resolution also offered "full support" for the Venezuelan government's peace initiative, in which the opposition has so far refused to participate. Student and political opposition leaders, one of whom is jailed, have refused to engage in dialogue with the government until all jailed protesters are released.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/Protests-continue-after-Venezuelan-diplomatic-win-5299624.php

But now, the OAS has totally backed the fascists into a corner, and they will be forced to put up or shut up. Truth and public dialogue will expose them and their nefarious goals. If they engage in dialogue, they will be exposed, and I suspect that some unpleasant facts about the true nature of their intentions will be brought to light should they engage in dialogue. If they refuse, they will be exposed as well, but can at least make lame excuses for their unwillingness to talk. Either way ~ done deal. Since fascists cannot stand in the light, I suspect they will refuse. But I really, really hope they don't refuse again.

cuz, ya know...

“(The OAS expresses its)acknowledgement, full support and encouragement for the initiatives and efforts of the democratically elected government of Venezuela... to continue making progress in the process of national dialogue,” the declaration read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014750094

A) This protest maybe started out as a spontaneous student protest but quickly was co-opted by the RW opposition. The RW opposition seeks to overthrow the government.

"THE EXIT"

Under the banner "The Exit," meaning Maduro's departure, hardline opposition groups have been holding mostly small protests around the country for the last two weeks, to complain about rampant crime, corruption and economic hardships.

Some have degenerated into rock-throwing skirmishes with security forces in the first sustained trouble since last year's post-election riots that killed half a dozen people.

"We're staying in the streets until this government falls," said student Jose Jimenez, 22, protesting in Chacao with a shirt tied round his face to protect him from tear gas.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-venezuela-protests-idUSBREA1B1K220140212

LEOPOLDO LÓPEZ: [translated] I would like to tell all Venezuelans that I do not regret what we have done thus far, like the call we put out for the protests, which is what we’ve been doing for some time. But on the 12th of February, on the Day of Youth, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Venezuela, not only in Caracas like in the past, but in all of Venezuela, in the cities and in the towns. There were 10 or 50 or a thousand or 10,000 or even 70,000, but the people came out. The people woke up. Venezuela today, more than ever, needs you, who are watching this, and that each one of us takes on the commitment to want change. But that commitment cannot be passive. That commitment has to be active.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/venezuelan_protests_another_attempt_by_us

12 February – Major opposition protests began with student marches led by opposition leaders in 38 cities across Venezuela simultaneous with the national celebrations for the bicentennial year anniversary of Youth Day and the Battle of La Victoria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Venezuelan_protests

Wikileaks evidences US funding to Venezuela's fascism
http://www.avn.info.ve/contenido/wikileaks-evidences-us-funding-venezuela039s-fascism

Subject Usaid/oti Programmatic Support For Country Team 5 Point Strategy
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=06CARACAS3356&version=1314919461

Venezuelan Protests: Another Attempt by U.S.-Backed Right-Wing Groups to Oust Elected Government?
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/venezuelan_protests_another_attempt_by_us

Venezuela's Deep Political Education Means Venezuelans Will Withstand Right-Wing Protests
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/kevin-zeese-and-margaret-flowers/54532/venezuelas-deep-political-education-means-venezuelans-will-withstand-right-wing-pr

Beautiful day here, I'm going out to hike in the gorgeous sunshine.

[reddread]

202. you aint just whistling dixie

these know nothings are only wasting the time and energy of committed souls.
that one is a smoky waste of time for sure. probably not old enough to vote.

[Judi Lynn]

201. Opposition Mob Targets Venezuelan Actors in El Hatillo Restaurant

Opposition Mob Targets Venezuelan Actors in El Hatillo Restaurant
By Arturo Rosales writes from Caracas. Axis of Logic
Sunday, Mar 9, 2014



The video republished below is a scene that happened on Friday night in the middle – upper middle class municipality of El Hatillo in the east of Caracas.

The name of the restaurant in question is Hajillos and the Venezuelan actors Roque Valero and Jorge Reyes were enjoying what they thought would be a quiet meal with family and friends.

The local “citizens” arrived who do not agree with Valero’s or Reyes’ socialist politics and started to intimidate and harass them with a cacophony of pot banging. The “citizens” gradually transformed themselves into a fascist mob of about 100 people.

The mob trapped them inside and Valero had the courage to come to the door to speak with them. He asked them what they wanted? What he had done? There was silence as there is no answer to justify this type of irrational behavior.

Then someone yelled “asesino” - murderer – at Valero and the aggressive harassment started all over again. Toward the end of the video you will hear someone call him a “mamaguevo.” The meaning is “cocks---er.

More:
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_66451.shtml

[NuttyFluffers]

204. thanks Judi Lynn!

you've been my DU go-to finder for Lat-Am affairs research going on a decade now. best supplier of well cited data here over the years now. keep on and know your work is remembered and appreciated!

[Judi Lynn]

219. Your post means far more than you can imagine, thank you so much.

We're all learning about these things together, in spite of the interference.

You are very kind.

[Agony]

292. I second that...

all of it!

Thanks to Judi Lynn for the time that she puts into posting here.

There IS a multiplier effect as I am not shy about sharing with a large circle of friends.

[Ken Burch]

212. "Pots-and-pans protests" were used by the CIA to help bring down Allende in '73.

You see pots and pans, you pretty much know there's fascist intent.

If the "opposition" really wanted a humane, democratic outcome, it would take the government up on its repeated offers for dialog.

[Judi Lynn]

220. Jailed Venezuela protest leader mocks Maduro's talks

Jailed Venezuela protest leader mocks Maduro's talks
By Andrew Cawthorne and Daniel Wallis
February 28, 2014 4:58 PM

CARACAS (Reuters) - Jailed Venezuelan protest leader Leopoldo Lopez scoffed on Friday at President Nicolas Maduro's efforts to open talks with opponents and businessman after a month of demonstrations and violence that have killed at least 17 people.

Maduro, 51, seems to have weathered the worst of an explosion of protests against his socialist government that exposed deep discontent with economic problems and brought the nation's worst unrest in a decade.

Some students are still setting up roadblocks and clashing with police in Caracas and the western state of Tachira. But the number of protesters has dropped, and many Venezuelans have begun heading for the beach to enjoy a long weekend for Carnival celebrations.

To try to ease the crisis further, Maduro has been holding talks with business and church leaders and some anti-government politicians, though the main opposition figures such as two-time presidential candidate Henrique Capriles have boycotted them.

More:
http://news.yahoo.com/jailed-venezuela-protest-leader-mocks-maduros-talks-151730715.html

[Zorra]

238. Offering to engage in open public dialogue in daylight with fascists is often the most effective

method for getting them to STFU and crawl back to the rat dens.

Maduro: "OK, it seems we have a problem. Let's go to the park and have some nice talks in plain view of the world and see if we can't resolve this problem."

Fascists: "No can do, hoss, the dog ate our homework again. But we'll be back. ¡Hasta el Petroleo siempre!"

[Judi Lynn]

296. Yes! It happened also years ago when these "protesters'" older brothers & sisters

had been throwing fits in the street to express their seething hatred for the previous people's elected President, Hugo Chavez.

They invited the students to talk, arranged a formal meeting place, they appeared, then they all flounced off, unwilling to go through with it.

It could be they realized they had nothing they could say which would advance them. All they had was their contempt for the poor, and their overriding desire to please their oligarch minders, and get lots of face time on tv and the papers.

These tubes are happy as clams getting theatrical, or, in some cases, getting to terrorize and harm the poor for free. A little of that sure as hell goes a long way, doesn't it?

[center]

Students hold a demonstration in front of the Government Ministry in Caracas, Venezuela. Opposition protesters demand that the government reveal more about the health of cancer-stricken President Hugo Chavez. Photograph: Juan Barreto/AFP/Getty Images





[/center]