Russia vows no Ukraine invasion as leaders seek solution

[Lars28]

Source: AFP

Moscow (AFP) - Russia on Saturday pledged it would not invade mainland Ukraine following its seizure of Crimea and said it favoured the ex-Soviet state becoming a federation as a way of defusing the crisis.

Tensions have run high after Russian President Vladimir Putin ripped up the post-Soviet order with Moscow's lightning takeover of Crimea from Ukraine, with the United States accusing Russia of massing tens of thousands of troops on Ukraine's eastern border.

But telephone talks between Putin and US counterpart Barack Obama late on Friday were the latest sign of a slight lessening in tensions between Moscow and the West and a search for a mutual solution in what remains the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov hinted at what were Moscow's main demands in the negotiations -- that Ukraine should be made into a federation and commit to not joining NATO, while order should be restored to the Ukrainian capital Kiev where protesters have thronged the city centre for half a year.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-russia-must-move-back-troops-003508153.html

[DavidDvorkin]

1. A federation as a step toward the individual parts

voting to secede and join Russia in much the same way as Crimea did, and with as much validity.

[Lars28]

2. That will never happen.

Russia doesn't want an unruly fascist province, and Ukraine doesn't want to be a fascist province. Ukraine wants to be a fascist nation.

[EX500rider]

3. Strange the polls don't show that..... n/t

[Lars28]

4. What polls?

[EX500rider]

8. Ukrainian political polls? Feel free to show one with the "fascisits" on top-U more likely mean

virulent nationalists, people tend to use fascists around here when they mean that or corpratists or racists or anti-Semitic.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

"Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.
Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but replaced socialism's focus on class conflict with a focus on conflict between nations and races."

[Lars28]

38. Fascists don't always call themselves "fascists."

But they are fascists neverthless, longing for the "good old days" in the Ukrainian Waffen SS.

http://www.ucrdc.org/HI-14th_WAFFEN_SS_GALICIA.html

[Igel]

5. They don't need to.

They believe.

But Putin'll get what he wants.

1. Keep Ukraine open for later addition to the Rusosphere that he wants for various reasons.
2. Make the point that there is a sphere of influence. Neighboring peoples are Russia's; just as Chomsky speaks a dialect of English in which "himself" can function as a subject ("Himself entered the room&quot , so Putin, for now, is to be recognized as the "self" in "Other countries' self-determination."
The rest of the point is simple: Disobey and you'll be punished. And the West will talk and in exchange for others' rights not being trampled further, they'll allow the trampling that's already occurred to be ignored and even blessed.

The political solution is this: In exchange for the West being able to believe itself as the defender of freedom, the steps Russia has taken will be overlooked and a few additional steps will be allowed.

Having thoroughly punished Russia by letting it take territory, impose its will on Ukraine with not only Western acquiescence but complicity, gain oil/gas fields, cripple Ukraine, make a handsome profit, ensure a stronger and more potent Russian naval presence in the Black Sea and Mediterranean (meaning Indian Ocean and S. Atlantic), as well as making clear its threat to neighboring countries, we'll declare victory and pat ourselves on our backs.

[uhnope]

18. total BS.

What makes you slam the whole Ukrainian nation, so ignorantly? What do you know about living under fascism or Stalinism that you can tell Ukraine that? Are you aware of what Ukraine went thru in the 20th century? The Ukrainians I know are fully aware of the dangers of dictatorship. It's why they oppose Putin and kicked out their corrupt ex-leader.

There are not more fascists in Ukraine than in Russia (or many countries in Europe), BTW, in case you're getting disinformation from RT.

[Iliyah]

25. AGREED

[Lars28]

35. The Dark Side of the Ukraine Revolt

Counterpunch

While most of the Western media describes the current crisis in the Ukraine as a confrontation between authoritarianism and democracy, many of the shock troops who have manned barricades in Kiev and the western city of Lviv these past months represent a dark page in the country’s history and have little interest in either democracy or the liberalism of Western Europe and the United States.

“You’d never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings,” reports Seumas Milne of the British Guardian. The most prominent of the groups has been the ultra-rightwing Svoboda or “Freedom” Party.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/03/the-dark-side-of-the-ukraine-revolt/

[MNBrewer]

21. The outright LIE that fascists are running Ukraine is persistent here at DU.

[davidpdx]

31. +1

[Lars28]

36. 'Rein in Ukraine's neo-fascists'

As if to endorse the sentiments of the EU resolution, the leader of Svoboda (or "Freedom&quot , Oleh Tyahnybok, is on record saying that Kiev is governed by "a Jewish-Russian mafia" and has said Ukrainians bravely fought Muscovites, Germans, Jews "and other scum" in World War II.

This unsavory constituency, including the "ultra" Right Sector movement, manned the barricades in the Kiev uprising, providing "security" to the mainstream political opposition leaders and matching the pro-government forces in violent tactics that led to the dozens of dead in and around the Maidan.

These rightist-nationalist forces were in large part responsible for the collapse of the agreement signed in February that called for early parliamentary and presidential elections and a return to the 2004 Ukrainian constitution, which harks back to the "Orange Revolution" that brought a pro-West government to power in Ukraine.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opinion/speedie-ukraine-far-right/

[MNBrewer]

40. Is Oleh Tyahnybok running Ukraine? Funny I don't see his name listed as being a Cabinet Minister

But over the border in Russia we have...

Vladimir Zhirinovsky, leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia, whose party holds 56 of the 450 seats in the Duma.

(Wikipedia)

"Zhirinovsky has expressed admiration for the 1996 United States presidential election contender Pat Buchanan, referring positively to a comment in which Buchanan labeled the United States Congress "Israeli-occupied territory" and said that both countries were "under occupation" and that "to survive, we could set aside places on U.S. and Russian territories to deport this small but troublesome tribe." Buchanan strongly rejected this endorsement, saying he would provide safe haven to persecuted minorities if Zhirinovsky were ever elected Russia's president, eliciting a harsh response by Zhirinovsky: "You soiled your pants as soon as you got my congratulations. Who are you afraid of: Zionists?" Zhirinovsky repeatedly denied his father's Jewishness until he published Ivan Close Your Soul in July 2001, describing how his father, Volf Isaakovich Eidelshtein, changed his surname from Eidelshtein to Zhirinovsky. He rhetorically asked, "Why should I reject Russian blood, Russian culture, Russian land, and fall in love with the Jewish people only because of that single drop of blood that my father left in my mother's body?" Another frequently cited quote from Zhirinovsky is "My mother was Russian and my father was a lawyer".

Besides expressing his concern for Turks and Caucasians displacing the Russian population from their native territory, Zhirinovsky also advocated for all Chinese and Japanese to be deported from the Russian Far East. During the 1992 visit to the United States, Zhirinovsky called on television "for the preservation of the white race" and warned that the white Americans were in danger of turning their country over to black and Hispanic people."
**********
Russia is "concerned" about Ukrainian fascists and nationalists but seems quite at home with Russian fascists and nationalists.

[Lars28]

41. He is the leader of the right-wing to far-right All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" political party

He doesn't need to be a cabinet minister to influence government policy.

Your response is pure sophistry.

[MNBrewer]

42. Your "concern" over fascists in Ukraine is noted.

I don't like them on either side of the Ukrainian/Russian border, but the fascists who are actually in power are the ones in Russia.

[Lars28]

43. Ipse dixit.

[Lars28]

6. The MSM got everyone's cold war juices flowing, for nothing.

There has been a deal on Ukraine between Putin and President Obama ever since their 90 minute phone conversation on February 1.

See here, for example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/details-of-obama-s-90-minute-phone-call-to-putin-emerge-1.1710331

[newthinking]

20. The "hawk", media, and all the posturing were provoking the situation

I am glad that the two leaders in the end tampered things down. I am sure the neo-cons that brought this thing close to a crisis are severely disappointed. Although they still so have a chance to keep the puppet regime they planted in power.

[another_liberal]

7. Welcome to DU, Lars28!

Yes, talks between President Obama and his Russian counterpart are a very good sign.

Russia has offered its starting negotiation position, and, I'm sure, our President has done the same. As long as the two sides continue to talk, and all of the posturing and sabre-rattling by war-mongers is toned down, any disagreements can eventually be ironed out. This whole mess may be over far sooner than any of us dared to hope even a couple of weeks ago.

[dipsydoodle]

9. Russia has no intention to send troops into Ukraine – Lavrov

There is no intention in Moscow to send its troops into eastern Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said. Hopefully, the growing understanding in the West of Russia’s position will allow for a de-escalation of the tension, he added.

In an interview with Rossiya 24 TV channel, Lavrov spoke on the futile western attempts to isolate Russia diplomatically, the growing acceptance of the need for constitutional reform, which Moscow proposes, the prospects of NATO’s expansion into Ukraine and the potential for global presence of the Russian Navy

Question: After the G7 countries announced their decision to withdraw from the G8, it was said that now Russia is isolated in the international arena. In the UN General Assembly 100 countries voted against Russia. The claim of Russia being isolated is true, then?

Sergey Lavrov: “Isolation” is a term invented by our Western partners who act with nostalgic neo-imperial ambitions in mind. The instant something isn’t to their liking they draw out this sanctions stick. The times when such strategy could be employed are long gone. They should think about getting everyone, with no exceptions, to work together, not about isolating their partners.

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-interview-ukraine-russia-065/

Ukraine crisis: Russia vows no invasion.

Moscow has no intention of sending troops into Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.

His comments came after the US and Russian presidents discussed a possible diplomatic solution to the crisis.

The US-backed plan calls for Russia to halt to its military build-up on the border with Ukraine and withdraw its troops in Crimea to their bases.

US Secretary of State John Kerry is trying to set up talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

Reports say Mr Kerry was flying home from the Middle East on Saturday when he abruptly changed travel plans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26799326

[TomClash]

11. That's encouraging

But 3 points.

Things change.

Leaders lie.

Putin makes the final call.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. He should have a word with the deputy head of the FSB

who seems to think Russia can interfere in eastern Ukraine how it wants:

Moscow faces growing threats from the United States and its allies, who are trying to weaken Russia's influence on Ukraine, a senior security official was quoted as telling President Vladimir Putin on Friday.

"There has been a sharp increase in external threats to the state. The lawful desire of the peoples of Crimea and eastern Ukrainian regions is causing hysteria in the United States and its allies," Interfax quoted Alexander Malevany, deputy head of the Federal Security Service, as saying.

He said Russia was taking "offensive counter-intelligence and intelligence measures" to blunt Western efforts to "weaken Russian influence in a region that is of vital importance", Interfax reported.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/uk-ukraine-crisis-russia-security-idUKBREA2R0QZ20140328

[newthinking]

30. He is simply expressing the methods that we have established

These are the rules that we use, we are consistantly interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. Far more than Russia does on any measure.

I saw an interview with Putin after what happened in Georgia. In that interview he expressed surprise at the way he felt the west was able to manipulate the version of events in the media (and OSCE verified that Russia indeed went in *after* Georgia targeted civilians in their investigation afterwards and that western media claims were false). The look on his face definitely appeared to be genuine astonishment. It was in the years after that he started to ramp up his own media efforts.

I have been paying a lot of attention to matters in that part of the world for a while. And it looks to me like he has been essentially learning from us, and adjusting his tactics to match ours. I am not sure that can really be blamed on him. We have been doing this for many, many, years. He just seems more willing to actually speak about it, whereas our government always denies it is going on. Maybe Putin has not yet learned to do that?

[newthinking]

22. Just what they have been saying all along. Certainly the Pres needed to be cautious

But all the cold war posturing and demonizing done by the media did nothing but attempt to move things closer to conflict.

[go west young man]

26. Too true...

it reminded me of the propaganda run up to the Iraq War....only this time DU was not united and was actually halfway swinging for the neocons that drove this narrative and gave us that horrid war.

[TRoN33]

10. That what Hitler once said the same thing....

He promised not to invade Poland and few days later, he did invaded Poland. Those who not remember history are doomed to repeat it. Funny how Republican voters hates and fear the Communism yet they're licking Putin's behind, favoring him over our President. I wonder if Republican voters are well aware that Putin was a former high ranking KGB agent who was in charge of communism doctorate in bloc states.

[another_liberal]

16. Hitler was then . . .

This is now.

What is different, you might ask? It's a little something called the hydrogen bomb:

Get the picture?

[daleo]

27. That is sobering to watch.

[another_liberal]

28. "It's just a shout away . . ."

[IkeRepublican]

34. Feh, computer animation

Here's the real Tsar Bomba.

Designed to be 100 megatons, but could not be air-deliverable until it was widdled down to 50 or so megatons. I mean, who's really counting after a few kilotons anyway?

[newthinking]

23. If we are intellectually honest, Russia has a track record of generally doing as they are saying

that doesn't make Putin a "good guy", but in terms of strategic considerations, I think our leaders knew that it was pretty much as he had said (that he would only get further involved if the situation with ethic Russians deteriorated seriously), they (the US) just could not take any chances.

It was all posturing, but it did achieve a lot. There is now pressure on the current Ukraine government to clean things up and change the trajectory that they were heading toward. Pressure is on the US to make sure they do so. It calmed what indeed could have, and still potentially could (svoboda, right sector, are both feeling very powerful and energized) have turned into ethnic persecution or worse.

[Pterodactyl]

12. We'll just hold our finger over the reset button. If they start to move, RESET!

[samsingh]

13. i don't believe this

[HereSince1628]

14. But if they happen to get an invitation?

I understand that within cold war experience that's a horse of a different color.

We can call people names for not sharing our perspective, threaten and punish them. But to live on the same planet with them, we need to understand their perspective, even if we don't share it.

I hope to hell someone other than Cheney holdovers is working that problem.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Russia broke its pledge made when Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons; a pledge not to invade Ukraine.nt

[snappyturtle]

24. When push comes to shove many feel that the commitment to halt

NATO expansion has been violated. Here's an in depth article about what happened during German reunification. Interesting to read about James Baker's role in this.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

Russia fears Ukraine possibility of becoming a member of NATO. In the end, the 1994 Budapest Assurances were just that and not a formal treaty although President Obama re-assured in 2009. OTOH, the commitment not to expand NATO 1990ish was non formal as well.

[dipsydoodle]

19. Lavrov / Kerry meeting moved forward to tomorrow - Sunday in Paris.

.

[davidpdx]

32. Sounds to me like Russia is pushing Ukraine to be part of its federation

The question is will the people of that country have a say in it (as in a legitimate vote that is not interfered with). Frankly I'd rather see both the US and Russia back off.

Doing anything prior to their election in May (at least I think that's what I read when it is) would be foolish. They need to get their government in order.

[Lars28]

37. No.

And every day, developing events continue to prove you wrong.

[karynnj]

39. Last I read it is May 25

I think there needs to be some things done first - though it is very hard to say what could legitimately be done. However, the Parliament is the elected representative of the Country. The President was picked by the Parliament as an interim President. You could say he is their Gerry Ford - never elected President (or VP), confirmed by the Senate.

However there are bigger problems with doing nothing until the election. Russia's action of annexing Crimea is the hardest thing to ignore until after May 25. How can you have an election when it is not clear who has the right to vote? If you assume that the Russian action did not occur, you have a strange situation where people the Russians deem as Russians get to vote for the Ukrainian government. ( Tartars and other Crimeans not alligned with Russia have been reported to have fled Crimea - leaving I would assume mostly Russians. )

This is a tricky situation, but the danger of not diplomatically cooling this down is incredibly high. In addition, while the interim leader is intentionally a lame duck, I don't think the Parliament is.

One scary thought:
Just approving the annexation of Crimea is something that many Ukrainians might really not approve of. However, what is the alternative, given the referendum. You could dispute the referendum and demand a new referendum with more choices be taken -- but that opens up a can of worms about allowing referendums in many "states". It is impossible to imagine Russia simply accepting that Crimea is part of Russia - apologizing and going home.

[Elmergantry]

33. What makes Russia think

they have the right to tell Ukraine how to structure its govt?