Ukraine in 48-hour ultimatum to east's pro-Russia activists
Source: BBC News
Ukraine's interior minister has warned pro-Russian activists who have taken over state buildings in eastern cities to enter talks to find a political solution or face "force".
Arsen Avakov said the situation would "be resolved in 48 hours" either way.
Earlier, a number of people held inside a state security building in Luhansk since Sunday were freed.
The EU, Russia, US and Ukraine are to meet next week in the first four-way meeting since the crisis erupted.
The talks are aimed at breaking the impasse since Russia annexed the southern Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea in February. Russian troops are now massed along the borders of the two countries.
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26953113
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cprise
(8,445 posts)and how it runs both ways.
It will be interesting to see if and how corporate media attempt to twist their doublespeak in the opposite direction. "Activists" may soon be described as "terrorists".
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)It is bad, bad, bad when a democratically elected Ukrainian government (which leans toward Russia) threatens to use force against pro-Western protesters who have seized government buildings; in fact, such threats are justification for counter threats of sanctions by Western nations.
It is, on the other hand, good, good, good when an "interim" Ukrainian government (which is a coup-installed puppet of the West) threatens to use force against pro-Russian protesters who have seized government buildings. This latter kind of threats are justification for offers of support and assistance from the same above mentioned Western nations.
I hope everyone will keep these simple rules in mind as the situation in Ukraine plays itself out. Thank you.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Nothing quite like inconsistency. 
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)their supporters. In Uganda, we are supporting the murderous dictator in their fight against the rebels and in Syria we are helping the heart eating, head chopping, suicide bombing rebels against the government. There are no standards when it comes to US policy, so expect the same treatment for the unelected Kiev coup government.
They will use extreme force against the protestors, they will call em terrorists and foreign agents and then go to work on them. Remember the way they accused black Libyans of being foreign mercenaries? and then massacred by the Libyan rebels. The same sort of thing will happen here and nobody will do a damn thing to stop it.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)check out this article from Asia Times Online saying the exact same thing. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-01-070414.html
New US reality: An empire beyond salvation
Excerpt:
But the US is still being pulled into too many different directions. It has attempted to police the world exclusively for its own interests for the past 25 years. It has failed. "Cut and run" is essentially an American foreign policy staple, and that too is a botched approach. Even after the piecemeal US withdrawal from Iraq, the US is too deeply entrenched in the Middle East region to achieve a clean break.
The US took part in the Libya war, attempting to do so while masking its action as part of a larger drive by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization so that it shouldered only part of the blame when things went awry, as they predictably have. Since the January 25 revolution, its position on Egypt was perhaps the most inconsistent of all Western powers, unmistakably demonstrating its lack of clarity and relevance to a country with a massive size and influence.
However, it was in Syria that US weaknesses were truly exposed. Military intervention was not possible - and for reasons none of which were moralistic. Its political influence proved immaterial. Most importantly, its own legions of allies throughout the Middle East are walking away from beneath the US leadership banner. The new destinations are Russia for arms and China for economic alternatives.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...could have predicted that south and eastern Ukrainians would began raising their collective voices in favor of seceding from the coup-installed government in Kiev - they didn't choose the IMF-lapdogs and right-wingers the US favored to run things there. The whole affair has been the exact opposite of the democratic ideals the US preaches abroad and our media here has yet again revealed their complicity in all of it.
Now there is news that the mercenaries from Blackwater (now called Greystone) are on the ground in Ukraine to help protect the neo-fascist government there and I'm sure our government officials decided that since official US military involvement there was not feasible, they'd rely on this private army of thugs to help "democracy" along in Ukraine (just as they did in Iraq and Afghanistan). Erik Prince and his band of killers need to be reigned in sooner than later or they will be engineering a fascist takeover of the US (backed by the wealthy elite and corporations). Any powerful nation that has to resort to the use of private, for-profit armies is on its last legs, morally and spiritually.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)Also, the numbers of these protests seem much smaller than ones earlier. Why do you accept these as legitimate but not the other ones?
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...due to the fact that the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine were mainly responsible for elected the legitimate president (Yanukovich) who was ousted by anti-Russian, pro-western rightists. I would say they are more legitimate because one of the first things the post-coup government in Kiev did after they took over was remove the official status of the Russian language (a slap in the face to the large ethnic Russian population in the east and south), and I would say they are more legitimate because none of them had a hand in choosing the current Kiev government (but Obama's assistant sec. of state obviously did).
Why are you so eager to defend blatantly anti-democratic actions simply because Obama and McCain tells you they are right? Can you not look at both sides and decide for yourself what makes the most logical sense?
penultimate
(1,110 posts)I base my opinions on my understanding of events. I don't really care what happens in Ukraine, to be honest. From my perspective, it seems as if Ukraine has many internal problems that need to be resolved by the Ukrainians. Despite what has been parroted over and over, I have yet to see any convincing evidence that the US was the cause of the protests in Kiev. So that suggests that there was frustration and anger with Ukraine before Yanukovich fled the country. I also went back and viewed various stories and videos of the protests earlier this year, and I could see there was a diverse group of protesters. It's simply untrue say the majority of the protesters are/were rightest. It's unfortunate that the right sector played such a visible role, but the current government have taken steps to minimalize their influence. Also, while viewing those videos, you can see that Yanukovich's government was not a fair and kind bunch of people. You can do some research and find all sort of horrible stories about what their Berkut was doing. So as far as I can tell, there were legitimate issues that people were protesting.
Now let's go forward a bit. I see the people in the eastern part of Ukraine are upset too. They want change and to be heard. Which is great, and they should. The difference is that they want to leave Ukraine to join a foreign power. They are raising Russian flags and asking for more Russian assistance. They are working a country that has already shown that it will use military forces to occupy and take parts of the country. That isn't an act of civil disobedience, that's a treasonous act of war.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)It's unfortunate that the right sector played such a visible role, but the current government have taken steps to minimalize their influence.
The current government in Kiev is doing nothing to disarm and limit the actions of Right Sector, and in fact, they have been recruiting more members, moved their "headquarters" to the east of the country in order to properly bash some pro-Russian heads, and have been involved in violence against protesters. The disarmament of groups like Right Sector was one of the requirements set forth by Russia in the agreement they reached with the US and EU, but the western powers have yet to address it (while continuing to accuse the Russians of not doing their part).
I'm not defending Yanukovich - he was as corrupt a president as many others are - but I do condemn our government's loose interpretation of "democracy" as how it is easily discarded if the people of a given country don't like whom we like.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)There is not one thing you say about 'right sector' that does not apply with equal or greater force to the outbreaks in the east. It is, in fact, the outbreaks in the east which are the current source of destabilization and the focus of violence at present.
When Russia moves to disarm the gangs it has raised in the east, and removes the special forces operatives it has deployed to direct them, then Russia, and those who here support Russian imperialism, will have some ground from which to complain of 'inaction' by the Kiev government. At present, that government's chief need is the restoration of authority and order in portions of its territory where armed gangs in service to a foreign power with annexationist ambitions have put both central authority and peaceable order at bay.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...using the "failure to control separatists" in the east as a reason to escalate the confrontation with Russia. Now if I'm not missing something, it seems the post-coup government in Kiev has dispatched the military to the east to rough up the pro-Russian protesters and put them back in their proper place (actions which the Obama administration would've condemned if Yanukovich ordered in APC's and tanks to Maidan). Right Sectors presence among the Ukrainian military is worrisome to ethnic Russians because these guys aren't showing up to restore order, but to fight people they've been longing to fight for a long time.
Blaming the separatist sentiment in the east solely on Russia isn't being fair to the people there who don't want to be ruled by un-elected right wingers from Kiev (just as there were people protesting Yanukovich who weren't being prodded by the US/EU axis). The post-coup government in Kiev has labeled the separatists in the east "terrorists" and they intend to use violence to make them behave. Labeling a group of people "terrorists" is the first step in removing their humanity, making their deaths justified in the eyes of the labelers.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Without the separatist gangs sponsored by Russia, there would be nothing to escalate.
The Kiev government has every right to seek to assert its authority within its sovereign territory.
The actual; record of events reveals that the Kiev authorities have shown extraordinary forbearance in use of force to uphold their authority. Whether this is because of good nature, good strategy, or skittishness concerning the reliability of their instruments does not alter that fact.
nyabingi
(1,145 posts)So, you're willing to dismiss the legitimate concerns eastern Ukrainians have about their unelected government as nothing more than the workings of undercover Russian provocateurs, but you're completely (and I think, willfully) ready to accept that western Ukrainians and fascists rose up spontaneously in Kiev to overthrow the elected government? C'mon man, you're not being an objective observer of the situation and it leads me to believe you've fully disgested the western propaganda placed in the media for your consumption - it's removed your hunger to decide for yourself apparently.
The "authorities" in Kiev are not a legitimately-elected representation of the Ukrainians' political desires, yet you want to grant them legitimacy because Obama and Biden have given you permission I guess. The "Sirs" and "Ma'ams" speech suggests respect (which is admirable), but it seems you have a problem respecting balance and context, Sir.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Hell, I can tell taupe from charcoal grey.
And legitimate regional concerns for a degree of local autonomy are not what is being expressed by the relatively small gangs who have seized various government buildings and facilities in the east of the country. Those gangs are calling for secession and annexation, and that they are working as cat's paws for a foreign power ( and Russia is a foreign power in any portion of Ukraine ) is so obvious that it takes a pay-check from 'counter-punch' or the like to avoid seeing it.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)I have been called "comrade" and "Putin lover" ad nauseum on DU by the crowd that wants war with Russia.
In any event, the puppet government's use of force is exactly what Russia wants because then they have a duty to protect the Russians inside Ukraine.
Someone from Langley needs to step up to the plate and admit that the whole clusterfuck in Ukraine was a colossal mistake.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)What people recognize is that invasion to seize territory from a neighboring state is profoundly destabilizing to a consensus of peace in Europe which it would be foolish to imagine is the natural state of the place, and that Russia's actions here, threatened and actual, pose a tremendous danger to peace in the future. The people who are actively courting war, who are apparently happy to run its risk on behalf of others, are those who are lending themselves in support of Russia's designs on portions of Ukraine, and see no problem with its use of military force to achieve them.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)we were the ones who fomented the coup d'etat in Ukraine along with the far right elements. We helped create Frankensteins monster. When playing chess, you can't suddenly be pissed off at the other player because you opened the door to a move and they took advantage and walked right through it. Your post falls apart because Russia did not make the first move and now you blame them for destabilization in Europe. It's a ruse. The threat to peace and stability was obviously thought about(not too wisely)by our government. Maybe you can spread the blame around a bit as they seem to have fucked up on foreign policy once again.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)There is nothing remotely resembling proof, of a sort that would be admitted to court or survive in a peer-reviewed journal of history or a thesis presentation, that the United States procured the overthrow of Yanukovyk.
The first overt military move across a border has been made by Russia. You cannot wriggle off this, no matter how you attempt to impersonate jello sliding down a wall in the intensity of your effort to avoid it. Russia has no right to be the economic exploiter of Ukraine, it has no injury justifying resort to invasion if it cannot maintain the position of primary exploiter of Ukraine politically. It is in the position of someone who, told he will not be lent or given a sum of money, and even called an asshole in the bargain, perhaps, resort by pulling a pistol and demanding the sum.
The taking of Crimea by Russia can be given the Nelson eye, but a further invasion into east Ukraine, cannot be. It will overthrow the consensus established after the Second World War, and open the possibility of numerous renewed conflicts in Europe. The responsibility for this will be pinned by history on V. Putin.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Even the dinosaurs at CNN are more in touch with our actions in Ukraine than you are.
I do have to give you credit for superfluous bullshit though. Your post, as usual, made me chuckle out loud. Thanks for the comedy. Your giving Stephen Colbert a run for his money. The only difference being that his comedy is satire.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)A good part of the problem here seems to be that have little if any understanding of what constitutes evidence in regards to the claims you make.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Is that legalese? Keep up the great comedy. It truly is entertaining. Thanks again.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Bloody-minded obstinacy and manic energy are no substitute, and only put those failings on more frequent display.
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)EX500rider
(10,842 posts)Just so we are clear..
So it it Obama who you think is pro-fascist coup or is the CIA gone rogue and out of control?
penultimate
(1,110 posts)and join Russia? Wouldn't that be like France having a duty to protect Quebec separatist if a group of them took over government buildings? What if a group like MEChA took control of government buildings in Southern CA or Texas and demanded to join Mexico, will that mean the Mexican military has the duty to protect Mexican citizens? Let's say parts of Venezuela broke off, took control of government buildings and then asked for the US to send troops in to protect them, would that be okay?
I don't want war with Russia and I'm sure Russia will get what it wants, but that doesn't make it justifiable. And again, there is little evidence to suggest that the entire thing was orchestrated by the CIA. The closest thing to proof is the Nuland recordings, but that conversation only proves that the US government saw there was a revolution of sorts taking place, and they wanted to guide it in ways that would be favorable for the US and allies. If you're going to criticize the US/EU for that, then you'd also have to criticize the Russians for playing the same games. Diplomatic activities like that seem to be how the world works though. The difference here is that neither the US or EU annexed any territory, nor did they send troops to occupy any lands. Russia is breaking apart a nation and making their own. I would not find this acceptable if the US/UK/France/Liechtenstein did anything similar, so why should Russia get a break? Just because it goes against US/EU interests?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)If Mexico were a stronger country than the US, they may kick racist Texans' asses for mistreating Mexican/Americans as well.
Remember Reagan invaded and took over Granada just because some American medical students felt threatened, arrested Granada's prime minister and brought about regime change.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)Do you believe the US was in the right during Operation Urgent Fury? As for the Mexico/Texas scenario, would that mean you'd support the US going into northern mexico to protect American expatriates who live there from drug cartels? Obviously none of these situations are exactly the same, but they are similar enough that the same standards should be applied.
But like I said, I'm sure Russia will do what it wants over there and there isn't much that can or will be done. Maybe the sanctions and some bad relations for awhile, but I'm sure Russia will be just fine. It's not like the world would rush in military assistance if the US occupied parts of Mexico. Although, there would be far more mass protests and there would be very few defenders of the actions here on DU.
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)nyabingi
(1,145 posts)...voted overwhelmingly to join the country that supposedly "invaded" them from the east? Oh, I forgot. The Russians made them vote at gunpoint and then made them dance in the street waving Russian flags after the referendum passed in order to further their anti-western propaganda. You are ignoring the history of western Ukraine from WWII which is obviously very fresh in the minds of the Ukrainians.
Why is it so hard for you to see this whole situation was instigated by the same neo-cons who brought us Iraq and Afghanistan?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)"Someone from Langley needs to step up to the plate and admit that the whole clusterfuck in Ukraine was a colossal mistake."
They will do so too. Sadly, though, it's not likely to be until fifteen or twenty years from now.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Just sayin'.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Just sayin'.
BTW: Are there "facts" which aren't "real?"
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Interim being in quotes, supposing that the government is not actually interim. And then there's the whole "coup installed puppet of the West" thing.
There's the true-true, and then there's wild speculation being passed off as proven fact. Your statements clearly fall into the latter category.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I've invested more than a few years of study in the field of international relations. That being so, I have quite well grounded opinions and appreciations concerning the kind of stooges-for-hire now running Ukraine.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)December 9 2013: Ukrainian Police Threaten To Drive Protesters Out Of City Buildings
Police are also threatening to enforce a court order to drive protesters out of city buildings they've been occupying.
April 7 2014: Mob In Ukraine Seizes Provincial Building, Declares Independence
On Sunday, pro-Russian mobs also stormed buildings in Luhansk and Kharkiv, two other cities in the country's east that have large numbers of Russian speakers and strong pro-Moscow sentiment.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)What can I say? If you really think a meaningless exercise in self-serving semantics justifies our shameless hypocrisy regarding what the puppet government of Ukraine is now doing to it own people, nothing I could say would be likely to change your mind.
Igel
(35,300 posts)The flip was when the Euromaidan were billed as rightist thugs bent on a coup but the group taking over the buildings (and holding hostages) were deemed virtuous, pious souls.
The flop would be saying that the response by Taruta et al. is legitimate.
Ultimately the Duma may have handed Ukraine a way out. The Ukr press, if I read it correctly, says that the Duma's passed a bill offering financial support and expedited Russian citizenship to any Ukrainian citizen who moves to the Rostov area, Saratov (I think), or the Khakassia Republic. (You can have fun with Wiki sorting out the Khakassia geography; I keep wanting to morph it into "Cardassia".)
My spidey sense says this is the quo being offered pro a posterior quid, in a prime example of effect and cause a la Russe. It will be suggested that Ukraine find a way to come up with an anterior offer of the same sort of deal--since there are many Ukrainians living in Russia, not just the Crimea, none of whom are saying they're having a pleasant time of things--mirroring the kind of ethnic partition that was so common a couple of generations ago.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)You may need some fresh air?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Isn't a group of violent protesters a "mob" and isn't a "mob", at least theoretically, protesting?
lanlady
(7,134 posts)Former prez Yanukovcych was (still is) a mafia henchman who, together with his son, stole millions of dollars in Ukrainian wealth; he had no interest whatsoever in democracy. Along come the youth of Ukraine, fed up with the kleptocracy, to peacefully protest en masse for European reforms. Yanu-cescu, ever the coward, flees to Russia together with his mistress and sacks full of art and antiques (there is video). Victory for the good guys, or at least, the not so bad guys.
Enter Putin who takes advantage of the situation to bus in Russian thugs-for-hire, hand out Russian passports, intimidate and threaten Ukraine, and literally tear it asunder. Neither the Russian language nor Russian ethnicity has ever been oppressed in Ukraine, but never mind: since Putin has managed to stifle all dissent in the Russian media and put his rivals under house arrest, his people will not question his rationale for setting ugly forces loose in a peaceful neighboring country. A country whose people (most of them) want only to live in a normal country with normal rules--not a mafia-run country where the 0.001% sucks up every bit of anything worthwhile.
It really is that simple.
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)If almost 100 Occupy protesters were killed under Obama you damn well better have called for impeachment... 
Semivir
(15 posts)Here, for example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014776587
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)BBC news has jumped the shark.
Nevermind, didn't realize this was weeks ago. I perhaps can see it in context.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)More or less around the point where they started kidnapping journalists and executing dissenting politicians.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)It worked for the "activists" that are now threatening them.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Burning tires in the town center is amateur hour for these folks.