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Lasher

(29,409 posts)
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 09:54 PM Apr 2014

Air strikes in Yemen kill 40 al Qaeda militants in two days

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Air strikes in southern Yemen killed about 30 suspected al Qaeda members on Sunday, local tribal sources said, in the second day of strikes against militant targets in the country.

On Saturday an air strike killed 10 al Qaeda militants and three civilians in central Yemen, a country that neighbors top oil exporter Saudi Arabia and is home to al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), one of the group's most lethal wings.

The defense ministry said Sunday's early strikes targeted a remote mountainous region of the south. Its website quoted an official source on the High Security Committee as saying that they were based on information that "terrorist elements were planning to target vital civilian and military installations".

Similar wording was used to justify Saturday's strike, in which three nearby civilians were also killed.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/20/us-yemen-violence-idUSBREA3J0K420140420



Sunday's strikes are new developments. Earlier DU LBN threads:

Unsettling video shows large al Qaeda meeting in Yemen Wed Apr 16, 2014, 02:16 AM

US Drone Obliterates Civilians in Yemen - Sat Apr 19, 2014, 10:48 PM
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Air strikes in Yemen kill 40 al Qaeda militants in two days (Original Post) Lasher Apr 2014 OP
at least 57 civilians killed by drone strikes Rumold Apr 2014 #1
oops, wrong bus, so sorry Rumold Apr 2014 #2
What ever happened to trying to get information? Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2014 #3
low level guys wont have any info worth risking troops over. nt 7962 Apr 2014 #4
The answer isn't always "troops".... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2014 #5
Oh, that guy... truth2power Apr 2014 #7
He was waterboarded over 70 times.... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2014 #12
Oops! Sorry... truth2power Apr 2014 #13
Yeah, but the "terrorists" are so evil their feet can never touch Holy US soil or,... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2014 #15
I wasn't told Nonfatmocha Apr 2014 #6
"increasing sympathy for AQAP and resentment against America" seveneyes Apr 2014 #8
Killed 40 and recruited 100 more replacements nt newfie11 Apr 2014 #9
Killed 40 and recruited 100 more replacements nt newfie11 Apr 2014 #10
Terrorists dying is always a good thing cosmicone Apr 2014 #11
Please defend who is a "Terrorists".... happyslug Apr 2014 #14
The statistics don't support your view. cosmicone Apr 2014 #17
Where??? In Palistan these hits are no where near the numbers you are claiming happyslug Apr 2014 #20
There was no Taliban before 1992. cosmicone Apr 2014 #21
So who cares? There was NO opposition to British Rule fo North America till 1776 happyslug Apr 2014 #22
You don't get it cosmicone Apr 2014 #23
There is NO EVIDENCE OF THE TALIBAN NOT BEING NATIVE AFGHANISTAN happyslug Apr 2014 #24
Book knowledge is dangerous said my professor cosmicone Apr 2014 #25
They all had their ''al Qaeda Cards'' on 'em when they died, huh? DeSwiss Apr 2014 #16
Don't forget that undamaged passports flew straight through the burning towers FiveGoodMen Apr 2014 #18
Yeah. DeSwiss Apr 2014 #19
 

Rumold

(69 posts)
1. at least 57 civilians killed by drone strikes
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:06 PM
Apr 2014

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch investigated six selected airstrikes since 2009 and concluded that at least 57 of the 82 people killed were civilians, including a pregnant woman and three children who perished in a September 2012 attack


http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/press-releases/amnesty-international-human-rights-watch-release-joint-report-on-drone-strikes

 

Rumold

(69 posts)
2. oops, wrong bus, so sorry
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:12 PM
Apr 2014

In Yemen, Human Rights Watch singled out a Sept. 2, 2012, airstrike in the village of Sarar that blew up a minibus, killing 12 passengers, including three children and a pregnant woman. The group said the Yemeni government, which works closely with U.S. counterterrorism forces, later admitted that the attack had been a mistake and compensated families of the victims

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/drone-strikes-killing-more-civilians-than-us-admits-human-rights-groups-say/2013/10/21/a99cbe78-3a81-11e3-b7ba-503fb5822c3e_story.html

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
5. The answer isn't always "troops"....
Sun Apr 20, 2014, 10:55 PM
Apr 2014

Sometimes it's good old fashioned infiltration and set ups and police raids.

Remember, ordinary COPS got this guy in his bed...

truth2power

(8,219 posts)
7. Oh, that guy...
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 04:15 AM
Apr 2014

The one we used to support. Wasn't he involved with 9/11?

Anyway, I hear that things are so much improved for the citizens of Iraq these days.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
12. He was waterboarded over 70 times....
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 10:31 AM
Apr 2014

So who knows? He would have confessed to the Lindbergh kidnapping, the Lincoln assassination and the burning of Rome.

truth2power

(8,219 posts)
13. Oops! Sorry...
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 02:19 PM
Apr 2014

I thought that was Saddam. I can't keep our enemies straight these days.

Isn't this the guy they wanted to put on trial in NYC?

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
15. Yeah, but the "terrorists" are so evil their feet can never touch Holy US soil or,...
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:55 PM
Apr 2014

....fissures will open up in the earth and bat winged demons will fly out and ruin backyard barbeques.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
8. "increasing sympathy for AQAP and resentment against America"
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:09 AM
Apr 2014

One can understand resentment against someone that killed family or friend while attempting to eliminate terrorists. It's hard to believe that any decent person could have any sympathy for those who target innocents and kill or torture them. The fact that there was any sympathy at all, much less "increasing sympathy", tells me there are people that condone these terrorists targeting innocents.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
11. Terrorists dying is always a good thing
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:52 AM
Apr 2014

especially before they have an opportunity to kill.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
14. Please defend who is a "Terrorists"....
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:41 PM
Apr 2014

In these strikes any male between the ages of 12 and 70 are classified as "Terrorists". The only civilians admitted to are children under 12, women and men over age 70 (and if there is any doubt, the dead are assumed to be males between the ages of 12 and 70).

The problem with such killings is all their other relatives end up wanting revenge, thus they join the real terrorists. This not only includes males between the ages of 12 and 70, but women and men over the age of 70 (and some children under the age of 12, revenge is a great desire when you are the one whose relative is killed).

The thrusts of these attacks, are like the Phoenix program in Vietnam, to kill off local political leaders who oppose the US forces in the region, hoping they will be replaced by someone who is less opposed to the US forces in the area. This some times work, but more often they not even greater opponents of the US forces in the area gain control, thus forcing another killing to kill these new leaders off, hoping this time more pro US leaders get a chance to take over the local group (In Vietnam, it was the leadership of the local villages, in Afghanistan/Pakistan it appears to be control of the local Clan, or Tribe).

Remember, the Afghan area is more Tribal then national in nature. i.e. To most people in that area, what their tribe whats to do is more important then what the Afghanistan or Pakistan Government wants. Worse, these tribes are more loss language/Blood groups then the more structured tribes of Iraq and Arabia. Thus you do NOT have a true Tribal leaders, but local subgroups leaders built around blood and marriage ties (and often reinforced by having most people marry their cousins, the norm outside of the "Christian West&quot .

Thus marriage, is one way to further unite various parts of one family. While most religions ban marrying one's sibling, the marriage of cousins in a common way for extended families to stay united. i.e. both spouses support group are the same people, for they share the same cousins. In Afghanistan marrying cousins concentrates the family as to who is a family member and thus must be avenged. This also brings together various males who are close relatives to each other, and thus often targets of drones. Thus we often end up recruiting more soldiers for groups that oppose US intervention by killing such people.

Side note: I use the term "Christian West" for one of the things the Catholic and Orthodox Churches did between the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (around 450 AD) and the Reformation (Around 1519), is to make the marriage of cousins a violation of Church Doctrine and STOPPED it from being the norm in most areas that were between 450 AD and 1519 AD classified as "Christian".

In the Reformation, this rule was dismissed as a creation of the Catholic Church, so among Protestants it was NEVER the rule, but while it was NOT a Religious Rule, by the time of the Reformation marrying cousins had become rare in such Protestants Countries, so rare that it never made a come back except in certain families when were noted for it. With the French Revolution and the adoption of the Napoleonic code which did NOT make it illegal to marry cousins, most of Europe and Latin American dropped any legal ban on such marriages, but the Catholic Church maintained its opposition (This dropping of the ban on marrwas followed by Russia and the most of the Communists Block nations starting in 1918).

Thus, while rare in most of the "Christian West" it ceased to be illegal starting in the early 1500s. It is still illegal in several US States. Those states states genetic reasons for the ban, but if you look at the ban it traces back to the 1800s and a desire to prevent concentration of wealth, i.e. if families marry their cousins, the family wealth stays in the family, if someone marries outside the family, the family wealth goes outside and the family. While religious doctrine was the justification of Catholics and Orthodox to adopting the rule against marrying one's cousins, the real reason for the adoption was to prevent concentration of wealth. This appears to be the reason Communist China adopted it in 1981 (and such bans have been in and out of favor in China for over 1000 years, apparently to break up concentrations of wealth). Japan and Korea seems to have adopted similar rules, but at present it is legal to marry one's cousin in both nations.

India's rule is more complex, marrying one's cousins is illegal, unless by local custom or your religion it is permitted. Pakistan seems to follow Middle Eastern Rules, but with modification to show it is different then the Hindus in Northern India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

Thus, while it is NOT illegal in most of Europe and many US States (Through it is illegal is several US States to this day), marrying one's cousins is rare in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, North and South American and even parts of Africa. The level of Cousin's marrying in the Far East, is believed to be under reported, especially in China. On the other hand it is the common for people in the Middle East.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
17. The statistics don't support your view.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 04:52 PM
Apr 2014

If each killing created 5 more terrorists, in geometric progression, Af-Pak would have 80 million terrorists by now.

The real fact is that terrorists are dwindling in numbers after the drone strikes started and they have broken the back of Al Q'aeda.

Secondly, a terrorist in hinterland, away from the US is pretty much impotent unless they are propped up with money and weaponry. So, while I support continued drone strikes, I also support destroying the infrastructure that supports terrorism like Pakistani military or rogue Saudis. We need to hit them hard as well.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. Where??? In Palistan these hits are no where near the numbers you are claiming
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 06:14 PM
Apr 2014

In regard to Pakistan, there have been only 369 attacks, killing 2.291 "Militants" and 286 Civilians, for a total kill of 2,981. This is NOT a one year total, it is a total for ALL YEARS.

The attacks have been LOW in number. I also never gave any number as to recruits, but taking yours of 5 to 1, that means 14,905 new recruits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

There have been 67 Drone attacks in Yemen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Yemen

As to Afghanistan, you have more attacks:

333 Drone Attacks in 2011:

291 Drone Attacks in 2010:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2251418/Revealed-U-S-carried-333-drone-strikes-Afghanistan-year--entire-drone-strikes-Pakistan-past-years-COMBINED.html

On a quick search I can NOT find a total Drone Attack number for Afghanistan, but looks like 300 a year has been averaged (Through reports was the number was increased in late 2013).

Thus if we assume 300 per year, that is about the same as the TOTAL Done Strikes in Afghanistan, which would mean 15,000 recruits per year. That would be about 60,000 total new recruits in Afghanistan over the last four years.

AS to Defeating the Taliban, you have to understand Winter Wheat. Afghanistan's main source of food is Winter Wheat, you plant it in the fall, it grows and then the tops die out with the snows of winter. Then in spring the Wheat regrows and is harvested in May and June. The Taliban is only at full strength between the harvest in May and June and the Planting of winter wheat in September and October. Thus the Government of Afghanistan set its election in April, with most, but NOT all of the Snow gone and people preparing for the harvest. Thus the Taliban is at its weakest from October to May.

The Taliban is about to re-start its war in about a month. This same pattern was seen during Vietnam. During the Wet Season, the US used its air Superiority to move Laotian forces friendly to the US to retake areas the North Vietnamese took during the Dry Season, for they had more men and equipment to take and hold the ground. This see-saw of military action lasted for years, just like the situation in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the planting and harvesting of wheat sets the pace of battle. When people are engaged in Planting or harvesting wheat, the Taliban basically sits on the sidelines. When the Crop is in, the Taliban mobilizes and goes on the offensive, till it is time to plant the crop in the fall then the attacks of the Taliban falls off. The Afghan Winter is severe so no movement during winter.

This has been the pattern since the US entered Afghanistan. The Drone Attacks have had little affect on this pattern.

As to the drop in the number of attacks during this pass election (April 5, 2014), the answer is simple, the Government if Afghanistan learned its lesson in 2009 when it held the election in August (Peak times of activity for the Taliban). This time the election is in April, before the Taliban has had time to re form itself for its summer offensive.

Election of 2009:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_presidential_election,_2009

2014 election:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/04/21/afghan_election_why_the_taliban_will_win.html

On top of this the Taliban seems to be waiting for the withdraw of foreign troops, why fight today, when the odds will be more in your favor tomorrow? With US Troops to be out by the end of 2014, why fight to much in 2014?

US plans to withdraw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Afghanistan

I expect the Taliban to do some operations this summer, but mostly positioning for next year. Furthermore whoever become President may be willing to deal with the Taliban. Both sides call themselves strict Muslims, thus religion and woman's rights are not that much different between the Taliban and the present Government of Afghanistan, thus the Taliban may be willing to cut a deal, where whoever is elected President retains that title, but real power returns to the Taliban.

Something is up, what it is unknown not only to people like us, but maybe even to the participates. Everyone is waiting to see how much does the US stay in Afghanistan. If it is limited to 1000 men, as is planed, the Taliban just may agree to a deal that gives it power, but the image that it is not on power. On the other hand the US presence is larger, not in numbers but in money and other commitments, the Taliban may return to out and out fighting. We will have to see.

As to these attacks being effective against the Taliban, I have NOT seen it, the wheat crop and waiting for NATO forces to withdraw are a better answer to the reduced Taliban activities so far this year.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
21. There was no Taliban before 1992.
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 09:47 PM
Apr 2014

Taliban was a creation of Pakistani military and ISI, initially with a wink and a nod from the US. Most of the Taliban "soldiers" were active duty Pakistani military and very few Afghans were in it. The Pakistani soldiers were using peasant garb instead of uniforms.

After the war in Afghanistan started, Pervaiz Musharraf hoodwinked Dubya and helped escape his Pakistani soldiers. Google "Kunduz airlift."

If Pakistani military is weakened in material and money, we will win in Afghanistan. Pakistan is the real enemy.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/double-dealing-how-pakistan-hid-osama-bin-laden-from-the-us-and-fueled-the-war-in-afghanistan-105229350.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
22. So who cares? There was NO opposition to British Rule fo North America till 1776
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 03:28 PM
Apr 2014

Yes, we started to fight the British in April 1775, but even then we accepted Rule by Britain. Even New England, which since the 1600s had been the most Anti-British Section of the American Colonies accepted British Rule till 1776. The Switch started with the Intolerable acts of 1774, which showed the American Colonies Britain's plans for North America, and that was to isolate the Colonies from the Ohio Valley and the Great Lakes. That isolation and the treatment of Ben Franklin at the same time period (Ben Franklin was only barely able to get out of Britain before he was to be arrested) were the chief reasons for the rest of the Colonies to support New England (Even Nova Scotia, supported New England, but its isolation from the rest of New England kept it is British Hands).

I bring up the American Colonies and its change from being pro-British to anti-British in roughly a four year time period, as an example of a rapid change. There are indications that France supported this change by providing aid to some groups. Aid not traceable to France (Even during the French and Indian War of 1754-1763, New England was trading wheat for sugar with French West Indies Colonies, thus the connection already existed, a little thing like War never interfered with some people making money).

The aid could be in the form of cash, or more likely trade opportunities. John Hancock was the richest man in the American Colonies, for he controlled the means to repair and maintain the wooden sailing ships of the day. There are some reports of John Hancock even repairing ships from the East Indies Company, who were forbidden to go to the Colonies at that time period with the sole exception of the ships involved in the Boston Tea Party. Thus I would not be surprised if he also repaired French Ships. The New England Ports were ice free in the winter and Quebec

White Oak is Native to New England and south, and reaches into Ontario, but NOT Quebec.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_alba#Uses

Red oak does reach Quebec, but is considered to porous for ship building:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_rubra

This difference is believed to be the reason the Mary Celeste was abandoned in the 1860s. The Mary Celeste had been hauling alcohol from New York to Italy. Most of the Alcohol was stored in White Oak Barrels, That Alcohol was intact when the Mary Celeste was found abandoned. The problem was that six of the barrels of Alcohol had been made of Red Oak, and from those barrels the Alcohol had leaked out. The prevailing theory is the Captain abandoned the ship for fear of the Alcohol exploding. An alternative theory is the Captain thinking they was more barrels of Red Oak then there were, decided it was better to abandon the ship (Which needed to be overhauled). Remember this is the 1800s and in that time period the Captain was to be paid AFTER the Crew was paid, and the Crew was to be paid after the "Needs" of the ship. In simple terms they was no money to pay the crew let alone the Captain. Given that set of facts, he took what was valuable (Navigation equipment) and simply abandoned the ship, assumed a new name and kept contacts with his family to a minimum (he had on board his wife and young daughter, his son was with his parents). The Family was NOT going to talk for the Captain would be liable for the lost of his ship to the owners. Everyone involved had reasons to keep quite about the Mary Celeste, even after Arthur Doyle wrote his piece of fiction based on that made more of the disappearance then the facts support.

Pine came out of Pennsylvania in the 1700s, Pennsylvania had a large fire in the 1600s and Pines grew up afterward. Pine was the preferred timber for Masts in the days of Sailing ships, thus Pine was concentrated in Philadelphia. The Gulf Stream flows north, thus it was easier to ship pine to New England then Oak to Pennsylvania, thus New England became the center of Colonial ship building and repairs.

I went into the above details to show that France had large trading interests in the American Colonies even before the Colonies wanted to be independent. The same with Pakistan and Afghanistan, Pakistan has had interests in Afghanistan since before the partition of India in 1947 (and before, the Mungal Empire imperial base had been Afghanistan

The Durrani Empire, 1747-1837, which used Afghanistan as a base to take over what is now Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrani_Empire

The Munghal Empire used Afghanistan as its base from 1526 onward (The Mughal Empire cease to exists in all but name after about 1707, thus various other countries decided to declare themselves independdent after 1707 such as the Durrani Empire above):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire

The Maratha Empire overthrew the Mughal Empire, lasting from 1674 till it was wiped out by the British in 1818. Thus Technically the Mughal Empire outlasted the Maratha Empire, the Mughal Empire lasting till 1857, but after about 1750 all the Empire held was New Delhi, the other parts of India were Independent (Such as the Durrani. centered on Afghanistan, and Maratha Empires above), or claiming to be loyal subjects of the Mughal, were de factor independent (Bengal, Awadh and the Deccan Plateau)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

Nawab of Bengal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murshid_Quli_Khan

Awadh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saadat_Ali_Khan_I

Deccan Plateau:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan

Please note the Deccan Plateau was the area where the Mughal and Maratha Empire fought each other for 27 years, 1680-1707. In the end the Maratha Empire won most of the Plateau, but what remained in Mughal hands became de facto independent in the disputes over the succession to the Mughal throne from 1707 to 1718:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Wars

At the same time the Maratha Empire decided to give more power to the local warlords, making them in time de facto independent, while the power of the Mughals was weak compared to the Martha in the late 1700s, it was fairly united by that time and able to assist the British East Indies Company in taking over all of India. When the Great Mutiny of 1857 took place, the British Parliament not only abolished the East Indies Company, but also the Mughal Empire. Thus the Mughal Empire came to an end not by any fighting, but by a British law.

Yes, India History from 1707-1857 is a mess. You you TWO Empires coming to an end, but more by dissolution then actual conquest. These two Empire ebbed and flowed, both dealing with forces from Afghanistan during this time period. Both Empires coming to an end, by the act of a Third Imperial Unit, the British East Indies Company (Which in turn was abolished by an act of the British Parliament).

I bring up the above, for it is another example of the rapid changes over a short time period. Pakistan started to form up the Taliban in 1992, that is only 20 years ago. In 1707 the Mughal Empire was at its peak, but it would for all practical purposes die out within the following 20 years. The Maratha Empire replaced it, but it also came to an end within 20 years of its height. Like the American Colonies, shifting from pro-British to pro French attitude between 1763 and 1783. Things shift over a 20 year period. especially in the area between Afghanistan, Iran and India. People can help such change along, as the Pakistan intelligence services were able to do with the Taliban, but as in the case of the Colonies from 1763 to 1783, the case of the Mughal Empire 1707-1727, the Maratha Empire 1798-1818, and even the British East Indies Company, 1837-1857, 20 years can see something go from peak to fall. Each of the above, while some outside factors were involved, the real change was the change of the people living in those areas. In America the acceptance that being under British rule was no longer in their best interests. In the case of the Mughal Empire, the acceptance of the people living under their rule that being Hindus living under Islamic rule was NOT in their best interests. In the case of the Maratha Empire, that Moslems rejected living under Hindu rule and other Hindus preferring to be independent of the the Hindu rule of the Maratha Empire. In the case of the East Indies Company, the rejection of British rule by the Hindu and Moslem Troops of the British East Indies Company.

In all of the above cases, except for America, Afghanistan was a factor. The same today in regards to Afghanistan, Pakistan is a factor and has been a factor since at least the 1700s if not the 1500s. Thus the fact that Pakistan Intelligence was involved with the formation of the Taliban is no big secret, but it does not mean the Taliban were NOT native either. The French had intelligence agents throughout the American Colonies between 1763 and 1774 who issued reports on American Capacity to fight the British, and it was French Policy to encourage such a break, but the French did not set up the war for Independents by themselves, they worked on an already existing desire to stabilize Afghanistan, independent of the War Lords that had taken power after the collapse of the last Communist Government of Afghanistan in 1992. Omar, is an native Afghan. While Omar and the Taliban used the resources of Pakistan Intelligence services, they were NOT controlled by those services, just like the America Colonists were NOT controlled by the French, even as France was doing all it could to cause a break between the Colonies and Britain.

Thus your point that the Taliban is a creation of the Pakistan Intelligence Service is meaningless. The Pakistan Intelligence Service help the Taliban, but the Taliban also helped the Pakistan Intelligence Service. They had a mission in common which was a united Afghanistan with strong connections with Pakistan. Afghanistan has three possible outside "allies", Russia, Iran, Pakistan and India. Prior to the Soviet intervention, Afghanistan, while a kingdom, was a loyal ally of the Soviet Union. When the Soviets decided to make Afghanistan more modern, they had the Government changed from a kingdom to a Republic and then to a People's republic, but each change brought with it massive opposition that the US, Pakistan, Iran and India all exploited.

Today, Afghanistan still in the center of conflict between those four powers, even as the US fights a war in Afghanistan. No one expects the US to stay more then a few more years, then the conflict will be between those four powers once again. The Taliban wants Pakistan to be Afghanistan's chief Ally, the former members of the "Northern Alliance" wants Russia to be that chief Ally. The Hazāra of Iran (about 20% of the population) wants their fellow Shiite Iranians to be that Ally. India wants anyone who opposes Pakistan to be in control of Afghanistan.

That is the situation in Afghanistan, and except for the Russians (who replaced the Turkish-Mongol tribes that controlled Central Asia before the Russian took over control of Central Asia), that has been the situation for at least the last 1000 years (maybe 2500 years, Cyrus the Great of Persia was the first Persian invasion of India around 530 AD, went from Persia to Afghanistan and then to India, this path was followed by Alexander the Great in 330 AD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

Just a comment that Pakistan has been involved with Afghanistan for centuries, as has Russia, Iran/Persia and India. That Pakistan would help form something like the Taliban should be a surprise to no one. That Russia would support the "Northern Alliance" and Iran the Hazāra should also surprise no one. Afghanistan is between these great powers and Afghanistan will jostle between all of them all the time, and those four powers will be involved in the affairs of Afghanistan and jostle among themselves all of the time. That is just the Geography of that part of the world, nothing more or less.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
23. You don't get it
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 05:58 PM
Apr 2014

The Taliban is NOT an indigenous Afghan movement. It is created, staffed, funded, trained and armed by Pakistan in order to control Afghanistan by killing genuine Afghan heroes like Ahmad Shah Masood.

Why did Mullah Omar, the so called leader of Taliban never wanted his picture taken? How could he have disappeared so cleanly without a trace? Because he was an ISI general in charge of the Taliban shenanigan and after the war started, he came back and went to his old job.

P.S. Wikipedia doesn't give rise to scholarly knowledge. It is at best good for writing junior high essays. The fact has remained that Islam was not indigenous to India and came from abroad ruling and converting with extreme brutality. The romanticism attached by Westerners to Mughal empire is not accepted by a vast majority of Indians and they see Mughal empire as foreign and brutal with destruction of temples and deities all over India.

They even destroyed a Rama temple built where Rama was born and built a mosque in its place which was destroyed by protestors in the 90's. Hopefully, the new government about to be elected will build a Rama temple in its rightful place and also rebuild the mosque nearby.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
24. There is NO EVIDENCE OF THE TALIBAN NOT BEING NATIVE AFGHANISTAN
Tue Apr 22, 2014, 09:47 PM
Apr 2014

Just like the French did NOT cause the US Revolution by supporting people who wanted to separate the American Colonies from England. Now, the French did send in people to look over the Colonies, and give estimates of Military Strength (and gave arms starting in 1775 but secretly). That French support did NOT make the American Revolution, but did help it along.

The same with the Pakistan Intelligence Service, it helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan.

The Taliban stronghold, on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border is dominated by the Pashtuns, who make up anyway from 38-53% of the population of Afghanistan (exact number is unknown, no census has been taken in decades).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people

2/3rds of all Pashtuns live in Pakistan, with only 1/3 in Afghanistan, thus the 38-52% of Afghans who are Pashtuns, make up only 1/3 of all Pashtans. The Pashtuns are concentrated along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, reaching upto Kabul.

Now, in Pakistan the Pashtuns live along the border between these two countries, countries they do not believe they are part of. Instead the Pashtuns see their fellow Pashtuns as they fellow citizens not the members of other tribes or other citizens of Pakistan or Afghanistan. This common world view is what the Pakistan Intelligence Service took advantage of when it wanted to help stabilize Afghanistan. With the assistance of Pakistan, the Talibans slowly took over all the Pashtuns trible areas in the the Afghan South, then moved onto Kabul. They tactics were simple, infiltration and concentrating on tribal connections. This was successful till they entered that part of Afghanistan with the least Pashtuns. This region become the "Northern Alliance" who kept the Taliban out with the support of Russia.

It is interesting that the Taliban offensive STOPPED when they ran into an area with very few if any Pashtuns, You can blame this on the lack of Pakistan Intelligence, but it seems to be that the Taliban ran out of Pashtuns. Thus the Pushtans were the rock the Taliban were founded on and built on. The Pakistan Intelligence service may have had a hand in the formation of the Taliban, but from all accounts it is based on the Pashtun tribal group, and that makes it a native born organization.

As to the Pashtuns in Pakistan, they loyality to Pakistan is open to debate. The border is called the "Federally Administered Tribal Areas" which continued the British policy dating to the late 1800s which was to leave the area alone. i.e. as long as whoever was in charge of the tribes in that area did not attack British and later Pakistan areas outside the Tribal area, the tribes in the area could do as they pleased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas

In the 1980s, with massive input of supplies going through the Tribal Area to Afghanistan during the Russia occupation of Afghanistan, a change started in the Tribal Area. It was NOT increased control by the Central Government of Pakistan, instead the people in control of the tribal areas shifted from the tribal elders, which had been the norm till 1980, to people having access to supplies and weapons going to Afghanistan. This increase tremendously after 2000 as the Taliban took over both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan Border.

The Council of Foreign Affairs is less upbeat about the Federally Administered Tribal Areas then is Wilipedia:

http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/pakistans-tribal-areas/p11973#p5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas

One survey indicated that 90% of the people of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, and 60% support attacks on the US for the drone strikes:

http://pakistansurvey.org/

Nearly nine out every ten people in FATA oppose the U.S. military pursuing al-Qaeda and the Taliban in their region. Nearly 70 percent of FATA residents instead want the Pakistani military alone to fight Taliban and al- Qaeda militants in the tribal areas.

The intensity of opposition to the American military is high. While only one in ten of FATA residents think suicide attacks are often or sometimes justified against the Pakistani military and police, almost six in ten believe these attacks are justified against the U.S. military. (The United Nations has determined that many of the suicide attackers in Afghanistan hail from the Pakistani tribal regions.)

More than three-quarters of FATA residents oppose American drone strikes. Indeed, only 16 percent think these strikes accurately target militants; 48 percent think they largely kill civilians and another 33 percent feel they kill both civilians and militants. Directed by the Central Intelligence Agency, missiles are launched from unmanned drone aircraft in the FATA region of Pakistan.

http://pakistansurvey.org/


The same survey shows little support for the Taliban or Al Queda, but that is NOT how the people are acting, i.e. they seem to provide food, ammo and other support to the Taliban, but then claim they do not. Typical of people who are unsure of how they should answer that question, in fear of retaliation. Opposition to US Drone Strikes is fairly safe, every one in Pakistan is saying they oppose them, even the soldiers guarding the bases where the drones are flown out of. It is safe to support suicide attacks, for they are RARE in Pakistan, they want to support the Pakistan Military, again a safe answer. Support for suicide attacks on Americans is high, again a safe answer, for such attacks are RARE in Pakistan and unheard of in the Tribal Areas (Where Americans do NOT go to).

Remember these are in areas where the Taliban control is view their tribe, which can also protect them from the Taliban (For often they are one and the same). On the other hand the Pakistan Army is an arm of the Pakistan Government, something they reject for their put their tribe above whatever Nation-State they happen to be in.

2005 paper on the History of the Afghanistan and the "Federally Administered Tribal Areas":

http://ipripak.org/papers/federally.shtml

Map of the Tribal Area:



http://www.understandingfata.org/about-u-fata.php

Once you understand the significance of the Pashtuns, and that they are the single largest "segmentary lineage" tribe in the world (i.e. a tribe, made up of sub tribes, which in turn is made up of clans, which in turn is made up of extended families, which in turn is made up of nuclear families, which is turn is made up of individuals).

More on Pashtun's Tribal rules:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
http://www.economist.com/node/8345531
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/phmen/My%20Documents/Downloads/ADA502894.pdf
http://afghanland.com/culture/pashtunwali.html
http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/ilsp/research/kakar.pdf

More on the nature of their tribe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmentary_lineage

The significance of being a Pashtun is that the nature of being a Pashtun who lives in the traditional Pashtun areas rules HOW you live and WHO you follow. It is the classic, myself against my brother, my brothers against my cousins, my cousins against my clan, my clam against my sub-tribe, my sub-tribe against my Tribe and my Tribe against the World. That is Pashtun society. When they are NOT fighting each other, they are fighting anyone who tries to move into the area that they control.

Thus when the Communist Government of Afghanistan collapsed in 1992, and the various War Lords took over and then started to fight each other over the remains, the Pashtuns finally said enough was enough and either formed up the Taliban (which the Pakistan Intelligence Service quickly decided also to support) or became the main force behind the Taliban, as it was formed up by the Pakistan intelligence service. The best answer is probably both happened, the the Pakistan Intelligence Service saw an opportunity to become the main ally to whoever was in power in Kabul and thus helped the create the Taliban, AND the Pashtuns decided enough was enough formed the Taliban themselves with the aid of the the Pakistan Intelligence Service.

The problem is HOW the Taliban was created is of minor concern, the key is what is the base of support for the Taliban in Afghanistan (and in Pakistan), and the base for the Taliban in the Pashtun Tribe NOT the Pakistan Intelligence Service. The key to the Taliban is that Tribal support NOT anything else.
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
25. Book knowledge is dangerous said my professor
Wed Apr 23, 2014, 09:38 AM
Apr 2014

in med school.

Wiki knowledge is even more so.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
16. They all had their ''al Qaeda Cards'' on 'em when they died, huh?
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 04:02 PM
Apr 2014
- And you actually believe this shit? Straight from the NSA, huh?

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
18. Don't forget that undamaged passports flew straight through the burning towers
Mon Apr 21, 2014, 05:25 PM
Apr 2014

to land in the street below and ID the bad guys on 9/11.

America swallowed THAT one...

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