Britain, France deploy jets near Ukraine

[davidn3600]

Source: 3news.co.nz

Britain and France have deployed eight fighter jets to reinforce NATO air patrols over the Baltics as tensions rise with Russia over Ukraine.

Four British Royal Air Force Typhoon fighters landed in Lithuania on Monday, while four French Rafale jets touched down in the northern Polish city of Malbork.

The move follows the arrival, also on Monday, of US troops in Estonia to round out the 600-man force sent by Washington to Poland and the Baltic.

British defence minister Philip Hammond said the UK deployment would "provide reassurance to our NATO allies in eastern Europe and the Baltic states".

Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Britain-France-deploy-jets-near-Ukraine/tabid/417/articleID/341879/Default.aspx

[Stuart G]

1. They are nuts...crazy..stupid, foolish..and idiotic..

Why?...
Accidents happen, mistakes are often made....

Putting British and French jet fighters next to Russian jet fighters, asks for trouble..
Why go looking for trouble. It will come on its own..

[totodeinhere]

2. That's fine as long as in fairness we also ask why are the Russians looking

for trouble. Aren't they asking for trouble by putting 40,000 troops at their border with Ukraine?

[Stuart G]

3. Yes, they are indeed...........but.......

It is a fact, that Russia borders on the Ukraine ...eh?
And it has special interests in that area, dating back hundreds of years. eh?
Why ask for trouble in a place that Russia has special interests in going back hundreds of years.
Guess what..you go looking for trouble..you will find it. Sure..Russia is looking for trouble.
Should France and Britain look for trouble hundreds of miles away from their own special interests?
Please everyone look at a map.
Who is close to the Ukraine, and who isn't???

Distance from Paris to Kiev.......1459 miles...

[geek tragedy]

4. Lithuania and Poland are members of NATO

who are being menaced by an expansionist imperialist power.

[Stuart G]

6. So what???

Menaced by Russia, expansionist???

If, Russia invades Poland and Lithuania ...then lets see.......but I don't believe that is going to happen..
Menace...what does that mean?
Fight a war over ...menace? give me a break...
Look for trouble..accidents happen, humans get their egos involved...Read .........

Guns of August .. Barbara Tuchman

.about WWI...then read it again..
Those fools didn't have any idea what they were getting into..end of rant.
.no more responses...

[geek tragedy]

7. Russia would be doing to Lithuania the exact same thing it's doing

to Ukraine if it thought we would let it get away with it.

We're treaty-bound to protect NATO members from foreign aggression.

Russia knows this, but reminders that it won't be allowed to touch NATO members serve a useful purpose--deterrence.

[pampango]

10. Vladimir Putin, Russian Neocon:How Russia's president resembles the American hawks who hate him most

Putin is as expansionist as American neocons are. He is even more successful at it as he has added Crimea to Russia's national boundaries.

Ever since Vladimir Putin invaded Crimea, American pundits have strained to understand his view of the world. Putin’s been called a Nazi; a tsar; a man detached from reality. But there’s another, more familiar framework that explains his behavior. In his approach to foreign policy, Vladimir Putin has a lot in common with those very American hawks (or “neocons” in popular parlance) who revile him most.

1. Putin is obsessed with the threat of appeasement

To Kristol, McCain, and their ilk, the United States is a nation perennially bullied by adversaries who are tougher, nastier, and more resolute than we are. ... In his (Putin's) view, it’s Russia that has been perennially bullied by tougher and nastier countries—in particular, America and its NATO allies. “They have lied to us many times, made decisions behind our backs, placed us before an accomplished fact,” he explained in a speech announcing Russia’s incorporation of Crimea. “They are constantly trying to sweep us into a corner.” But now, finally, the era of appeasement is over. “Russia found itself in a position it could not retreat from,” Putin said. “If you compress the spring all the way to its limit, it will snap back hard.”

2. Putin is principled—so long as those principles enhance national power

For Putin, an anti-Russian government in Kiev is illegitimate regardless of how it takes power. For many American hawks, the same is now true for a pro-Chávez government in Latin America or an Islamist government in the Middle East. ... In the United States, both hawks and doves like to claim that they’re promoting cherished principles like democracy and freedom. The difference is that doves are more willing to acknowledge that these principles can undermine American interests. For most hawks, by contrast, the fight for democratic ideals must serve American power.

3. Putin doesn’t understand economic power

This indifference to the economic aspects of statecraft was a defining feature of the Bush administration, where treasury secretaries played a marginal foreign-policy role ... Seeing “economics” as separate from “foreign policy issues” is precisely what Clinton decried in the 1990s, and it’s the weakness in Putin’s strategy today. But it’s a weakness that many American hawks share. For decades now, Kristol and McCain have insisted that America relentlessly expand its global military footprint and relentlessly boost its defense budget. I’ve never seen either make a serious effort to explain how this should be paid for.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/vladimir-putin-russian-neocon/284602/

[geek tragedy]

13. The last point is the most crucial.

Nothing will cause other BRIC members to lose faith faster than an imploding Russian economy.

[EmilyAnne]

18. They aren't near the Russian/Ukrainian border, though. nt

[ballyhoo]

5. There may now be only one way

this will end. This is how all wars start.

[The Magistrate]

41. Does It Involve Gypsies, Sir? Or Just Jews....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014790244#post13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014787623#post10

[heaven05]

8. Is something hotter here, say oil, than the media

and governments are saying? Just curious.

[bemildred]

9. We won’t invade Ukraine, Moscow pledges

MOSCOW has assured Washington it will not invade Ukraine, the US Defence Department said yesterday after the West imposed fresh sanctions on Russia over its role in the former Soviet republic.

As Western powers stepped up the pressure on Moscow over the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War, the White House slapped sanctions on seven Russian officials and 17 firms close to President Vladimir Putin.

The EU said it was adding 15 names to its own list while Canada added nine names and two banks. Tensions on the ground in Ukraine spiked when a pro-­Moscow mayor was shot and badly wounded and rebels seized another town.

The Pentagon said Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel had spoken by phone with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu and that “Shoigu reiterated his assurance that Russian forces would not invade Ukraine”.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/we-wont-invade-ukraine-moscow-pledges/story-fnb64oi6-1226900111190

[geek tragedy]

12. About as convincing as John Boehner's claim to be 'hell-bent'

on passing immigration reform.

[bemildred]

14. Seems better than threats of imminent invasion and jet-waving.

Which were happening not very long ago.

[geek tragedy]

17. Russian troops operating inside Ukraine seems, to me anyways,

to render such threats and disavowals of invasion to the level of etiquette and politeness, much like the practice of declining to acknowledge the presence of a foul odor on a crowded elevator.

[bemildred]

19. I always like it better if they are talking nice rather than making threats.

But what do I know? Right?

[geek tragedy]

21. you know at least as much as I.

it may be the darker nature of my world view, but I find promises of good behavior less encouraging than the yelps of dismay that follow the imposition of consequences for bad behavior.

[bemildred]

22. I find not going to war yet very encouraging. nt

[geek tragedy]

23. i view war as already having commenced in a low-intensity manner

much like the US waged war on Nicaragua in the 1980s so now is Russia waging war against Ukraine, but certainly this is a personal view

[bemildred]

24. Low intensity war, propaganda war, sanctions war, etc.: are all better than real war.

Fewer dead people, less property damage, etc. For some, at least, life can go on.

[geek tragedy]

26. indeed but the question is where things go from here

the optimistic scenario is that Eastern Ukraine will suffer the fate of Kashmir and Northern Ireland, with instability, lawlessness, and sporadic bloodshed being the new normal as it is claimed by two nations but ruled by neither

[bemildred]

28. Which situation is ubiquitous, and still better than being Iraq or Syria or many others.

One hardly knows where to start the list.

It's a pity for Ukraine to go the same route, but let's face it, Ukraine is not in control of it's destiny at this point, if it ever was, and it lacks the sort of political unity or natural defenses that would allow it to better resist outside encroachments.

[geek tragedy]

31. but how long will it continue to be a source of conflict

between Europe/North America and Russia?

When does either side feel it can afford to stand down?

Ironically, the economic sanctions on Russia will probably force it into a shotgun marriage with China, with Russia forced to play the subordinate partner.

Not something either side probably wanted.

As usual, those who stay out of a conflict wind up winning it.

[bemildred]

32. You got me.

I think we left reason behind some time back.

[geek tragedy]

34. individual and collective reason diverge from one another

as do situational and strategic reason--always being rational means being predictable

[bemildred]

38. Just pointing out that it is hard to reason about something when you can't agree on any premises.

In response to your questions. I was saying I don't really see how to reason about it, it's not a reasonable subject, in terms of predicting something will happen next.

The connections between reason, rationality, and being smart is big subject. Too big for me today.

[geek tragedy]

39. reason has its limits in an unreasonable world nt

[bemildred]

40. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying, we are there.

"This is the real world, Muchachos, and you are in it!" -- B. Traven

This is about people wanting things, and being quite unreasonable about it.

[geek tragedy]

42. Well, Russia has gotten pretty much everything it wanted, the only

question is what consequences they'll suffer.

Putin managed to annex not only Crimea, but effectively Eastern Ukraine with the only response being some watered down sanctions.

Western Ukraine will need to join NATO, but that doesn't do the US or EU any good.

[The Magistrate]

33. You Are Right, Sir, About Who Would Be Dominant In A China To Russia 'Marriage'

Which is just one of the reasons some of the bleating here about how 'Russia has allies like China and India and can thumb its nose at U.S. measures' is more comedy then commentary.

[geek tragedy]

35. better a surrender in private than a public display of humility think some nt

[The Magistrate]

36. True, Sir, They Do, But In Fact, the Former Stings Longer....

And in this case, would do much more harm to long range ambition. China has every intention of being the chief economic exploiter of Siberia, and a claim to Russia's Pacific coast every bit as solid as Russia's to Ukraine....

[geek tragedy]

37. Russia tends to be about 50 years behind its counterparts

in terms of strategic thinking, going back centuries.

At that stage, the Russians will be desperate for a regional ally with oomph, and their options will be the US and Japan.

I do not think South Africa and Brazil will ride to their rescue.

[The Magistrate]

25. There Is Something To That, Sir

But among the points of engaging in low-intensity operations is that they can be denied with a straight face, or a straight-ish face, anyway, and can be stood down readily, and are conducted with an understanding on both sides that main forces are not likely to be engaged as a result of what is done by the covert ops or the special forces folks or the men in their flying machines. So these things can be, and usually are, conducted in such ways that they can be ended by agreement or by just pulling the plug, and without much likelihood of expansion. In this instance, the intensity is awfully low, and would be easy to halt if the aggressor were persuaded the game was not worth the candle.

[geek tragedy]

27. ay there's the rub

if the aggressor were persuaded the game was not worth the candle.

those that prize ethnonationalist pride and vindication through conquest are not easily persuadeable, I fear

[The Magistrate]

15. Those Are The Right Words, Sir

When the troops are pulled back from the border, and the separatist gangs denounced and told they are on their own, this thing will quiet down to the usual dull roar we all know and love....

[bemildred]

11. Britain, US seek stolen Ukraine assets

LONDON (AP) — Britain and the United States co-hosted a two-day "asset recovery forum" Tuesday designed to help find and recover assets believed to have been stolen by the regime of ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said the effort may take years but should ultimately succeed.

"We are determined," he said of the international bid to track down stolen money, announcing that a "kleptocracy squad" would be set up within the FBI to investigate high-level corruption in Ukraine and other parts of the world.

http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Britain-US-seek-stolen-Ukraine-assets-5437689.php

[The Magistrate]

16. I Do Like The Financial Skullduggery Being Floated, Sir

Most of Ukraine's debt to Russia could wind up being settled by some bank transfers in Moscow....

[mikeyDE]

20. Russia won't invade Ukraine because

it can't invade Ukraine when it already has invaded Ukraine.

Everyone wants to compare this crisis to 1914 or 1938. I say it's more like 2001. This crisis is Putin's Trifecta, his singing of God Bless America on the Capitol steps. The concept of regathering the former Soviet Republics is popular among his base (i.e., everyone excluding Moscow intellectuals and certain ethnic groups.) He has retaken the media and introduced Patriot-Act-like laws aimed at solidifying control. Best of all, the resurgence in patriotism gives cover for the continued fleecing of Russia by the kleptocrats and ensures them several more decades of power. A few NATO jets in Poland and the Baltic states are useful for Putin's internal security, WWIII would only ruin the fun for the kleptocrats.

Well, maybe I'm wrong but watching this crisis play out I sympathize with thinking Russians who must feel like I did in 2001.

[bemildred]

29. Jingo politics is popular anywhere you go.

The one form of populism most politicians find acceptable, as long as they get to be the leaders.

[The Magistrate]

30. It Is An Old Stand-By, Sir...