Ukraine: US condemns Odessa violence as dozens die

[okaawhatever]

Source: BBC

The United States has condemned the "senseless" violence that left at least 31 people dead in the south-west of Ukraine on Friday.

Dozens of people were killed by a fire at a building that pro-Russians had taken over in the port city of Odessa.

SNIP

The US said the violence was "unacceptable" and urged all sides to work together to restore law and order in light of the "tragedy."

"The violence and mayhem that led to so many senseless deaths and injuries is unacceptable," the state department said in a statement.

It also called on the Ukrainian authorities "to bring all those responsible to justice."

SNIP

Investigation underway

SNIP

The exact sequence of events is still unclear, but reports suggest the separatists had barricaded themselves inside the building and both sides were throwing petrol bombs.

More at link

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27265514

[Cha]

1. :( thanks okaa

[freshwest]

8. I won't *even* say what I think of this... n/t

[Cha]

17. Tweet from Samantha Power, fresh..

Samantha Power ✔ @AmbassadorPower
Follow
Imagine if parts of Russia were seized: how wld Putin respond if asked to remove HIS army? That's the absurd demand Russia is making of Ukr.
7:51 AM - 2 May 2014
579 Retweets 255 favorites
Reply
Retweet
Favorite

TOD

[Cha]

22. Fuck Putin.

[newthinking]

23. Huh? The post was about the response to the violence in Odessa?

I know in the fog of propaganda many are convinced that anyone who exposes something that does not fit in with their narrative is a Putin spy or some such. I can assure you I don't care for Putin. I care for the Ukrainian people, all of them (except the neo-nazi's, they can go to hell).

[Cha]

24. Yeah, you butt in on a post of mine to friend that was about putin.. so Fuck Putin.

[EX500rider]

70. Well when you barricade yourself in a building, throwing Molotov's may be a bad idea.

[karynnj]

77. This conflates two totally different things

Powers is speaking of the Russian call for Ukraine to not use its army or any other force against the separatists. Her comment - a hypothetical - is likely on target - and would apply to any country - including the US.

At least from the accounts I read, no one is saying that the Ukrainian army was responsible in Odessa. (If that were to be found the case, it still would not reflect on Powers' statement - though she obviously would have to condemn that action. ie action is warranted, but the action there (that I think non governmental forces took) is unacceptable.)

[NuclearDem]

49. Given what that asshole did to Grozny

He's possibly the last person to demand a country stop firing on its own people.

[JackRiddler]

56. And this is relevant how?

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 07:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Putin committed crimes in Grozny - and the U.S. didn't care to object at the time.

Therefore, it is justified for the coup d'etat supporters in Kiev (who came to power by refusing to acknowledge an elected government that they considered illegitimate) to burn people in the Ukraine.

Impeccable logic!

[EX500rider]

130. The elected government of Ukraine didn't go anywere...

...but the corrupt President did flee the country to his good buddy Putin.
Everybody else was still there though.

[JackRiddler]

55. You're presenting this as what?

Because if the high priest of humanitarian imperialism, Samantha Power, says something, then you know it's for the interventionist agenda she always supports.

[firesalesman]

95. Is it appropriate for her to Tweet stuff?

I mean, she's the ambassador to the UN. Surely the issues are more complex than she could capture in a few words.

[JackRiddler]

107. She's not about the complexities...

She's a salesperson for imperialism, long as it's Western. Always has been.

[laurent]

112. +1 nt

[Recursion]

123. Welcome to public diplomacy

Twitter just makes that inability to adequately convey nuance more pronounced.

[jtuck004]

2. "It also called on the Ukrainian authorities "to bring all those responsible to justice." Uh,

we spent $5 billion + cookies to help unseat and destabilize their government, which helped bring this about. I know, they said we would be greeted with cheers in the streets (or was that the other guy?) but it hasn't exactly worked out like that (like the other guy).

Here's our own Assistant Sect of State Victoria Nuland gleefully telling the friends of the oil companies all about it...

So, we didn't mean us, did we?

[okaawhatever]

3. The 5 Billion is since 1991 and much of that has gone to agricultural and health programs. We even

helped digitize all their historic documents shortly after they claimed independence. We didn't stage a coup or overthrow a government.

[jtuck004]

31. Lol. Yeah, I heard that too. n/t

[LarryNM]

5. +1 n/t

[NuclearDem]

50. Do some better research.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

Since 1992, the government has spent about $5.1 billion to support democracy-building programs in Ukraine, Thompson said, with money flowing mostly from the Department of State via U.S. Agency for International Development, as well as the departments of Defense, Energy, Agriculture and others. The United States does this with hundreds of other countries.

About $2.4 billion went to programs promoting peace and security, which could include military assistance, border security, human trafficking issues, international narcotics abatement and law enforcement interdiction, Thompson said. More money went to categories with the objectives of "governing justly and democratically" ($800 million), "investing in people" ($400 million), economic growth ($1.1 billion), and humanitarian assistance ($300 million).

...

Contrary to claims, the United States did not spend $5 billion to incite the rebellion in Ukraine.

That’s a distorted understanding of remarks given by a State Department official. She was referring to money spent on democracy-building programs in Ukraine since it broke off from the Soviet Union in 1991.

We rate the claim Pants on Fire.

[former9thward]

51. "Research" is not reprinting self-justifying press releases.

Anybody can say anything. What was the money really used for? Was there any audit? How much landed in the hands of the rulers?

[NuclearDem]

53. Five billion over twenty years is not paying for the Maidan coup.

I've no doubt that the West was involved, but that claim is just patently absurd.

we spent $5 billion + cookies to help unseat and destabilize their government, which helped bring this about.

That's the claim the poster made, and that's the claim that's totally bogus.

[JackRiddler]

57. You've "no doubt that the West was involved."

That should be enough then. Given that you are implicitly admitting this involvement was covert and part of an unannounced policy to overthrow the elected government, the price tag should be secondary (it could have been a lot of numbers, after all the spook budget is secret). Do you support the Western involvement in overthrowing the elected government in Ukraine on behalf of the current coalition of neoliberals and extreme right-wingers?

[NuclearDem]

58. Absolutely not. Neither do I support making patently bogus claims.

[JackRiddler]

60. Agreed, that $5 billion is a misrepresentation

Since it was all official money over 20+ years. Though we should ask what the U.S. government, objectively a destroyer of democracy around the world, thinks it's doing when it "supports democracy"?

Nevertheless, if you've no doubt the West was involved in the Maidan events, how much did "the West" spend on it? There's no knowing that, since we're talking about covert action.

[NuclearDem]

66. No argument from me on that point.

[sabrina 1]

114. Why are we involved in this at all? We seem to be everywhere, and everywhere we are

all we ever see is violence. We spent BILLIONS, maybe more, on creating a 'democracy in Iraq. Seen that country lately? Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Latin America is finally recovering from our years of supporting dictators there.

Maybe we should leave the creation of democracies to the actual people who live in these places. We aren't very good at it, in fact we need to start rebuilding our own,, right here. It needs a little attention.

McCain, Murphy, Nuland and Brennen are supporting the IMF there. Apparently a very large number of Ukrainians do not support the coup government.

All this could have been settled with an ELECTION. I guess an Election wasn't trusted to get the results (thanks Nuland btw) the West wanted so we supported the coup and now support a government a vast majority of people THERE didn't have a say in.

Since the victims of this terrible tragedy are all anti Kiev, I don't think there is much doubt as to who is responsible.

But it really isn't our business, unless we're extremely wealthy and get to 'invest' in the latest victim/nation of the IMF, see Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, not to mention the several newest members of the EU.

So again, what is the US Govt doing there? I was told we were not involved there at all.

If they want a civil war, they will have one just as many, many other nations have had. It's unfortunate that it came to this instead of simply holding an election.

You can't force 'democracy' with tanks and helicopters. You'd think WE at least would have learned that by now.

[NuclearDem]

116. "Why are we involved in this at all?"

You know I agree that we shouldn't be involved in other countries' internal affairs, yet you keep bringing that up like it's going to become some "gotcha" line.

Pointing out a completely bogus statement isn't defending US involvement. In fact, you'd know that's not what I was suggesting if you had read the subthread.

So again, what is the US Govt doing there? I was told we were not involved there at all.

Strawman. No one's denying the US is involved. The argument is over degree of involvement, from passive support of the government all the way to directly engineering the Maidan protests.

[EX500rider]

131. The liberal St Pete Times (now Tampa Bay Times)...

....did some research and found out how and when the money was spent. Sorry that clashes with your preconceived notions of what happened.

[former9thward]

145. Too bad you did not link to this "research".

I'm sure the St. Pete Times was all over Ukraine.

[EX500rider]

146. They run Politifact...very trust worthy in my mind

[nyabingi]

67. And you assume Politifact

is free of bias simply because they have "fact" in their name? Haha!

[NuclearDem]

68. If you can find a source that claims otherwise

That isn't a conspiracy website or Counterpunch, be my guest.

[nyabingi]

108. What's considered a "conspiracy website" is truly

within the eye of the reader and what kind of stuff they are willing to believe in, but I've always found Counterpunch to be a really good site that more often than not prints articles that are correct.

[jtuck004]

73. Already read it. Means nothing, just one more two-bit opinion. We have been funneling money to lots

of things, and among those are ngo's and others who have worked to destabilized and influence the regime, not just in that country, but in countries all over the world.

But we are such moral stewards of goodness, it couldn't have been for any purpose other than the white right one, eh?

My research is just fine, don't need to rely on paid for opinions of hacks to get an understanding.

[NuclearDem]

76. Assumptions.

But we are such moral stewards of goodness, it couldn't have been for any purpose other than the white right one, eh?

Totally irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that your claim was bogus. Pointing that out doesn't require endorsing American imperialism; I don't, but I prefer to have my skepticism grounded in reality rather than half-baked conspiracy theories and deliberate misinterpretations.

Typical "with us or against us" attitude though. Either I believe every ridiculous assertion, or I'm an apologist for imperialism.

[jtuck004]

87. With us or against us. Always been that way, always will be. Only the naive and simplistic think

otherwise.

And, btw, you weren't even in my thinking. I promise, don't even care what you think.

Here, I'll prove it.

[NuclearDem]

88. Thank you, Mr. Bush.

[EX500rider]

132. "My research is just fine, don't need to rely on paid for opinions of hacks to get an understanding"

Sorry if most of us prefer the liberal St Pete Times (now Tampa Bay Times-who is behind the website Politifact) interpretation to yours.

[jtuck004]

134. Perhaps. Or perhaps you are overestimating your intra-group agreement.

...
"Liberals tend to underestimate the amount of actual agreement among those who share their ideology, while conservatives tend to overestimate intra-group agreement, according to new research published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science."
...

here.

Don't have to be a conservative to think like one...

But I like looking at differing opinions, so thanks.

[Sunlei]

52. perhaps you don't want the USA to be an ally & member of the (fantastic!)EU but I do AND

so does Ukraine!

Putin sure does NOT want Ukraine to have the free-trade/no-visa travel and economic benefits of full membership in the European Union. Russia will never be a full member of the EU as Mr. 'old soviet union Putin' can't even come close to the EU requirements.

[jtuck004]

72. You don't know a single thing about what I want. But what I don't want are warmongering assholes

who like to start wars to prove who has the bigger penis starting yet another one by sticking our nose in other people's business. Especially in a country which is right next to Russia and which we have been screwing around with for years, trying to make happen exactly what happened.

I don't much care for all the self-righteous assholes who think we should be over there screwing around should look around at their neighbors, at the 100 illion or so who float in and out of poverty, the 7 million foreclosed on, the 9 million who are underwater on their homes, and perhaps the kids who are now ungry since we cut $8 billion dollars from their food stamp program and quit pissing away our resources elsewhere until we get our own problems fixed. Or if one realy wants to champion freedom, maybe they could free up some of the victims of murder and rape in places like the Congo, where we happily let people, children, die so we can maintain our lifestyle. Or maybe the view from that tall white horse is obscured by the mist.

You really don't know the first thing about what I want. I won't be wanting to read anything you write in the future. Bye.

[Sunlei]

74. sorry to upset you. But I like when America has global friends.

I also hate that bush-cheney started wars just so they could profit from Americas federal funds. (OUR MONEY was stolen from 'the people')

[newthinking]

4. "Both sides" were not throwing bombs.

There is a video right on this site that people can see the entire thing. The riot that burned the camp and forced the "anti-maidan" into the building was on a trajectory. The "barricades" were in defense because those who they got ahold of were beaten and in danger of being killed. There was no resistance and it is all there for people to see. It was mass murder pure and simple.

If you are convinced those in the building were "Russian paramilitaries" or such just look at the video. At one point you can see several of what are obviously civilians, one a woman, on the roof. They all died. I am still trying to verify but it sounds like there may have been a few children in the building as well.

There was a clash before the incident and it needs to be investigated as well. There was a gunman that fired on one of the crowds but it is not clear who they fired on, at least on the reports from Odessa news. It sounds like one of the "pro-Kiev" members was killed and whoever did that should be brought to justice and possibly another from the anti-maidan was killed earlier.
There also was apparently another camp that had been burned down earlier as well, but details are not available or I have not found them.

This is a picture of the group preparing the molotov cocktails before the incident.




Here is another link to the video I mentioned. Most of the event up to where they force them into the building are there. They continued to throw additional bombs to stoke the fire even after it was clear what was happening. They were also beating and throwing bricks at the police as well.

[joshcryer]

7. Look at those terrifying fascists.

They aren't even wearing masks or sporting AK's, they're making Molotovs.

[newthinking]

12. Yes they made moltovs then rushed the building and burned it while people were in it

and beat people that tried to leave.

Did you even watch the footage? They purposely went their with the intention to burn them out. In this country that would be called murder.

[joshcryer]

27. That's mob behavior and I don't condone it.

Nor do I condone taking government buildings by armed force.

[Igel]

69. Sure.

The pro-Russians were also throwing molotov cocktails on those below.

And remember the context to this: A "Ukraine unity" march was joined by soccer "ultras" and then a group came from the antiMaidan, armed, and after attacking them shot some of them. The police mostly stood by. They separated the groups, but when there was shooting the police stood there. The popular perception was that the police were defending the armed pro-Russian mob from the unarmed Ukrainian marchers/soccer ultras. In all fairness, something like 21 "peace officers" were hurt, between the two events.

You're portraying the response with a complete lack of context. The antiMaidan attacks and it's apparently just fine. That, too, was murder. Unprovoked, at that.



(Check out the nationality stats for the dead, if you want a further surprise.)

(There's also a claim that the Ukrainian "fascists" violated the Geneva agreement by allowing the Euromaidan "fascists" to keep their spot on the Maidan, and that it's horrible to allow such encampments. Only the Euromaidan is mentioned. Note that the antiMaidan that was "liquidated" after the first round of shootings by the mob is months old and also wasn't disposed of by the "fascists" but provokes no complaints from the self-avowed defenders of the Geneva agreement. There are other encampments like this in various cities in Ukraine. I think they should all have been disposed of, but one kind seems to entail that the other kind should exist. )

[newthinking]

85. Can you provide a link to the "nationality stats"?

There is so much bogus information I would be a little skeptical. Keep in mind also that many Ukrainians, especially ones with Russian relatives, have dual citizenship. Technically (from my understanding), Ukriane does not allow dual citizenship, but just like here where there are People with Dual citizenship, it tends to be tolerated or ignored. Russia allows dual citizenship (from my understanding).

[newthinking]

16. You identify with pretty woman who made weapons that burned 38 people alive?

That is who the picture is of. Those woman have been identified and if there is still any justice in Ukraine they will be arrested. Just as anyone should expect to happen to any group, pro or anti, that were to massacre 38 people.

Think about what you are saying?

[joshcryer]

26. If Cliven Bundy took the Clark County Court House...

...I wouldn't cheer on a mob burning it down with him inside.

But I'd damn sure expect the police to do something.

In this case, the police were wearing pro-Russia arm bands and siding with the armed fascists.

Have they even tried to stop an armed takeover of a building? Do we even have an instance of that?

So I don't blame the mob when it becomes that way due to insecurity caused by an inept if paid off police force.

[newthinking]

35. There were some police that had the armbands. Not *all* police did

But of course that picture is what gets presented in the western media.

The country is divided. No doubt about it.

There was no armed takeover of the building in Odessa. This is one problem with the media stereotyping that is occurring. Odessa is a different situation than East Ukraine.
There was a large demonstration yesterday of the Kyiv crackdown. Afterwards they setup two protest camps. But there were no weapons involved in that.

[joshcryer]

36. Wouldn't that dissuade others?

Do you have one instance, just one, where the police shot the people attacking their buildings? One?

They only happened in the west, when Right Sector was trying to take stuff over. One Right Sector scum got killed as did a police officer.

If I was a cop and my fellow officers were wearing fascist insignia, I'd, you know, just back off, and hope my paycheck keeps coming, because I ain't risking it if my own guys are in on it.

[newthinking]

38. You don't get it yet. It is a reign of terror.

The police do not tend to resist Right Sector because they will "Pay Back". Maybe also pay back their families...

Now that things are heating up Police are getting timid with either faction, pro or anti.

All the geopolitical blaming is a distraction and "fiddling" while the country is essentially moving into a civil war.

[joshcryer]

39. Um, they did resist Right Sector.

Did you not read my post? They're not resisting the separatist. Right Sector scum are actively sought.

You act as if this is a neutral issue. When armed gangs take over a government building without resistance, it is not a neutral issue, there are police not acting within the law.

[newthinking]

40. They aren't actively sought. That's propaganda bs

How can they be "sought" when they are in executive positions in the government:

Yes, There Are Bad Guys in the Ukrainian Government
It's time for a frank conversation about some of the unsavory characters in Kiev.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government

Today, Svoboda holds a larger chunk of its nation's ministries (nearly a quarter, including the prized defense portfolio) than any other far-right party on the continent. Ukraine's deputy prime minister represents Svoboda (the smaller, even more extreme "Right Sector" coalition fills the deputy National Security Council chair), as does the prosecutor general and the deputy chair of parliament -- where the party is the fourth-largest. And Svoboda's fresh faces are scarcely different from the old: one of its freshmen members of parliament is the founder of the "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" and has hailed the Holocaust as a "bright period" in human history.

This does not include:
The head of Defense and internal security Andriy Parubiy, who founded what became Svoboda and has recently (and conveniently) changed party affiliations.

[joshcryer]

41. Moving away from Right Sector = being Right Sector.

OK, I guess.

[EX500rider]

133. "You don't get it yet. It is a reign of terror." yes it is..

....but not by the people you think it is.

I say the "reign of terror" would be the ones blockading roads, taking over govt buildings and shooting down helicopters.

[JackRiddler]

59. What if Cliven Bundy took Kiev?

Because, if you're going to insist on stupid inapplicable analogies, that's what's happened. A coalition including the Cliven Bundys of Ukraine overthrew the country's elected government in a coup d'etat. On the first day in power, they stoked ethnic conflict by abolishing Russian as an official language of the state. This is the "government" on which you, alongside the State Department (whose line you seem never to fail to follow), wish to confer some mantle of democratic legitimacy.

[joshcryer]

90. No they didn't.

The elected government fled after its murderous crackdown on largely peaceful protesters failed.

[JackRiddler]

96. "Largely" peaceful.

Even you see the need to hedge on that.

Yeah, thousands largely peaceful, except for the little matter of hundreds of neo-Nazi thugs beating up leftists. And probably no more than a dozen snipers shooting people on both sides (classic post-USSR shit, happened in Moscow several times already).

And what did this new righteous unelected government do on the first day? Declare they'd investigate the corruption and violence of their predecessors? Sure. Plus, oh, let's just abolish Russian as a state language. It's not like these entirely gratuitous declaration of ethnic supremacy is going to be noticed by anyone, right? Totally harmless, like Victoria Nuland's cookies for coups d'etat program.

[joshcryer]

100. Which side had more casulties?

The police lost a handful, the protesters lost dozens.

Scary Nuland, handing out cupcakes.

[JackRiddler]

104. So if Putin handed out some cookies in Crimea...

That would have been the last and only thing about him that you ever again mentioned or understood, or considered relevant for others. Because the cookies would have demonstrated that he was sort of a good guy and basically harmless to the world.

Didn't Reagan have this idea with the jelly beans? Could a guy that likes jelly beans be bad? Or harmful to anyone?

Used to be, any time I wanted to spend U.S. taxpayers' money for a covert operation to overthrow an elected government on a far-away continent, and micromanage who will be in the coup d'etat cabinet, I would go to a public corner and scream and froth at the mouth, waving a gun around. But for some reason this did not work well.

So then I tried handing out cookies! This proved very effective. It wasn't as good as turning nice students to serve as my PR front by giving them scholarships from endowments called "democratic". It also helped to dispatch a few hundred of my pesonnel to dispense talking points online using persona management. Now it's all cookies for me! Hooray!

[joshcryer]

111. it seems you care more about cupcakes than AK-47s

I don't care about NGOs. If Russia had NGOs in the USA I wouldn't give two shits.

[JackRiddler]

113. I care about covert operations.

If the U.S. conducts a covert operation to overthrow the democratically elected government of a sovereign state as part of a secret policy unknown to 99% or more of the American people, I give a shit.

If that covert operation involves fomenting violence and allying with neo-Nazis in said country, so as to impose policies of neoliberalism and ethnic supremacy, I give a shit.

Whether or not this violence is covered up by one of the responsible U.S. officials by the device of distributing cookies is irrelevant, and only of interest when used as a talking point by people like you.

When this is spun in a way that encourages more aggressive U.S. policy and liberal interventionism, I give a shit.

Also for the country under siege, since this reckless and covert policy has given the opening for intervention by the Russian state.

[joshcryer]

115. I support internationalism.

[JackRiddler]

125. You confuse international crime with internationalism.

Intentionally, from the looks of it. The usual ideology-obsessed realpolitik in humanitarian guise.

[joshcryer]

127. Aid is not criminal.

If, say, Russia gave aid to Occupy, I would have been fine with it.

[JackRiddler]

138. We differ, sir.

Thanks for demonstrating that realpolitik is, in truth, extremely unrealistic.

How about if the mafia gave money to occupy? The NYPD? (They probably did, indirectly, by employing a few of the people who camped out there.) What about Goldman Sachs? Now where's the problem in that? (Fact is, Google's employing a couple of self-proclaimed Occupy leaders, and they're the ones with the most harebrained and divisive ideas.)

[joshcryer]

139. I would have been fine with it.

It would be up to Occupy to accept it. AdBusters, for instance, was and is the nexus for millionaire liberal activists. Does that make it bad?

[JackRiddler]

141. Your categories are ludicrously general.

"AdBusters, for instance, was and is the nexus for millionaire liberal activists. Does that make it bad?"

Maybe, maybe not. Depends. With that example I see you're hedging and backing off. Your initial bet was on Russian state financing of Occupy! Should this have been covert or announced, in your opinion? The former would have worked better if the idea was for the FBI to railroad a couple of dozen patsies into federal prison for several lifetimes; the latter might have been preferable if the idea was to justify the forces of Homeland "security" using tanks and drones in suppressing the foreign-led insurgency.

[joshcryer]

142. It doesn't matter.

All that matters is what you do with the aid, it is irrelevant who gave it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

103. "Beating up leftists"

Leftists? Eh?

Someone who claims that others are creating a false narrative apparently feels the need to create one himself.

[Jesus Malverde]

32. Sometimes fascists don't actually look scary. Sometimes it looks like a cultural celebration.

Unless you are nuanced in the history and symbolism.



Ukrainian ultra-nationalists carry emblems of 14th SS-Volunteer Division "Galician" as they march in the center of the western city of Lviv on April 27, 2014 to mark the 71st anniversary of 14th SS-Volunteer Division "Galician" foundation.

Around 500 neo-Nazi supporters marched in Lvov to commemorate the creation of the 14th SS-Volunteer Division ‘Galician’ on April 28, 1943, according to RT.

Many of the demonstrators bore the SS Galician divisional insignia - a yellow lion and three crowns on a blue background - and wore nationalist shirts with the Ukrainian colors.

Instead of being a mere show of nationalist pride, protesters chanted slogans which openly supported the aryan ‘Native Land’ and ‘Student Brotherhood of Stepan Bandera’ radical organizations, according to the outlet.

Demonstrators cried “SS Galician Division!," “Glory to the nation – death to enemies!," and “Bandera and Shukhevich are heroes of Ukraine!” according to UNIAN news agency. The march ended earlier than expected due to the chants after locals submitted a slew of complaints; the march's organizers apologized.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180176

Fine company some have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Ukrainian)

[joshcryer]

37. Look at those mobs, thousands of them, even!

A few hundred idiot neo-Nazi's are not a big deal. The US's Nazi groups are bigger.

[Jesus Malverde]

42. Find me 500 celebrating the SS openly in the street...nt

[joshcryer]

43. One need only look to Russia for that.

[Jesus Malverde]

44. Celebrating the SS in Russia?

After the NAZI's killed 20 million Russians, you've jumped the shark my friend.

Performance artist eh?

[joshcryer]

45. Yes indeed.

See here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4903945

You've got your blinders on, silly. As if ultra-nationalist Putin inspired Russia is anti-fascist. That suggestion is jumping the shark.

[newthinking]

47. False equivilence since this OP is about the massacre

Where was the massacre in Russia?

Thanks for keeping the discussion on the top of the reading list though.

[Adrahil]

61. Ever heard of Chechnya?

Independent estimates put the civilian deaths in Chechnya somewhere around 200,000.

[JackRiddler]

62. And where was the U.S. outrage then?

I guess in that case the CIA (usually known as the "State Department&quot wasn't backing the Chechens, like it is backing the coup d'etat government in the Ukraine. Because that's the only explanation for the variability in U.S. response.

[Adrahil]

64. So it's OK Since the Bush admin didn't get upset?

There were lots of people here upset about it, including me. Russia has been tilting towards fascist nationalism for more than 10 years. Wake the fuck up.

[JackRiddler]

65. The Chechen wars started in the mid-1990s.

Yeltsin was forced to withdraw and Putin went back in after the 9/99 apartment bombings in Moscow were blamed on Chechens. Hm, 1999, 2000... Bush was already president? No, wait a minute... hmmmmmm....

[Adrahil]

93. the majority of the civilian deaths happened in the Bush years...

...but by all means, keep propping up Pootie.

[joshcryer]

94. It was pretty consistent?

The Chechens were separatists just as these Russian thugs are separatists.

The American constitution has an indivisibility clause in the Union. No State may secede.

[King_Rat]

80. Putin is a nationalist, no doubt.

But there is also no doubt that the people characterized as 'nationalists' by the West are Nazis. Surely not the whole or even a majority of the people in Maiden, who were deluded liberals and other discontented, but they were the shock force responsible for the violence. They parlayed this into cabinet seats, some of the most powerful ministries. Not the whole coup government yet but the 800 lb gorilla in that room. Their Right Sektor and Svoboda fighters have been incorporated en masse into the new National Guard because the Ukranian Army has little interest in being involved in a fight with the people or Russia. Some of these thugs have recieved training in Poland on somebody's dime. Rumor has it that elements within the Ukranian Army are in touch with Russia...

Yes, there're fascists in Russia, like everywhere the vile crud on the boots of capitalist society. But they are not the government, as opposed to Kiev. Do you know no history? Twenty-Five million dead, how do you think all but the most deranged Russian feels about that? How they think about a Nazi regime on their border? In this case nationalism is self defense.

So yes, Putin is an anti-fascist. Are you?

[joshcryer]

91. I am an anti-fascist, Putin is not.

I do not categorize all of Maiden as fascist, however I categorize the tactics by Putinists as fascist.

[King_Rat]

101. You must be confused.

Where does one see yammering about 'blood & soil', that's Svoboda, Who are the armed thugs maintaining their brand of 'order' in Kiev? That's Right Sektor. From what camp do we get hysterical blood-thirsty raving and of course, 'the Jews, the Jews!'? Which camp idolizes the war criminal Bandera? It's all out there for anyone to see. Not all of Maiden, no, but the part that counts, the active portion. The confused liberals are now getting the shit beaten out of them by their erstwhile allies.

But I guess you're confused.

[joshcryer]

110. Um, a sub group doesn't constitute the whole.

How hard is this to get?

[King_Rat]

117. Doesn't have to,

when by violence and intimidation they can impose their will upon society. Just as they are clashing with other factions in Maiden, and who do you think will win? They intimidate the legislature and quietly hold Kiev hostage.

This will only be over when the people of Ukraine send those fascists back to their rathole in Galicia.

[joshcryer]

118. They are a minority and marginalized.

Your generalizations don't change that.

[King_Rat]

119. Marginalized, eh?

So I guess that's why they were recruited en masse into the new National Guard, a formation created for them and a neat way to make an illegal armed group instantly 'legal'. Presto!

And is it in any way surprising that these formations seem the only Ukrainian arm forces inclined to attack civilians?

[joshcryer]

120. Only attacks on civilians I've seen are from pro-Russia.

[King_Rat]

121. Then you are not paying attention.

The checkpoints taken, and those which repulsed their attackers, have been manned by civilians and are often without firearms entirely.

Likewise, it was civilians who died in Odessa at the hands of a Right Sektor mob.

[joshcryer]

122. I distinguish between separatists and civilian.

In the same way I distinguish between between Cliven Bundy and green peace activists. One is armed with machine guns the other, whatever is available, generally harmless unless turned into a mob by murderers.

[King_Rat]

124. "turned into a mob by murderers"

What's that supposed to mean?

The murderers, by and large, have been Nazis. Self defense against Nazis is not only justifiable, it is mandatory.

[joshcryer]

126. Most casualties have been Maidan.

So your statement is objectively false.

Anyway, the latest tragedy was mob behavior caused by the murder of Maidan supporters. Many Maidan supporters tried to help once the magnitude of the event was known. This is much unlike the dead in Kiev, who's bodies laid in the street as traps for snipers.

[EX500rider]

135. "So yes, Putin is an anti-fascist."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! GOOD ONE!!!!

[Iterate]

48. “Orthodox Fascism in Russia”

A video titled “Orthodox Fascism in Russia” posted last week by an anonymous pro-Ukrainian blogger among others has been widely circulated on Russian and Ukrainian social media and news sites. With thumping rock music and scary footage of saluting marchers, the video takes its name from a comment made by an activist at an ultranationalist rally, “Orthodox fascism will save Russia.” The video contains alarming scenes seeming to indicate support for ultranationalist extremists by at least some Russian Orthodox clergy.
...

What we don’t get from the sinister video is any sense of the size of the movements, the degree to which the broader public supports them, and the sources of their funding. Last year, the Russian March, staged 4 November for Unity Day, a holiday introduced by Putin to commemorate the expulsion of Poles from Moscow in 1612, attracted about 8,000 people — more than the few thousand who showed up every year since 2005 (see The Interpreter‘s translation of Russian media coverage.) That’s not so many — a march to protest the forcible annexation of the Crimea drew some 50,000 with only a few thousand in a counter-rally organized by Russian Orthodox activists; a rally against suppression of media freedom drew 10,000.

What we also can’t tell is how much these groups and their events enjoy official support — they are given parade or rally permits, and some of them are related to national movements sponsored by the Kremlin, but the extent to which they are avidly sustained — as distinct from tolerated or manipulated for political purposes — is not clear. At the end of “Orthodox Fascism,” one speaker says that when he confronted an extreme Russian Orthodox priest about a violent attack, he was told that he could “do nothing” because the group “had the backing of Vladimir Putin.”

The provenance of the film circulating now appears to be in part a film titled “Russian March 2012: Orthodoxy, Fascism, Paganism,” produced and uploaded in 2012 by Portal-Credo.ru, a Russian news and research site run by advocates of religious freedom who are critical of the increasing interference of the Russian Orthodox Church in civil society. The older video contains some of the same scenes and slogans as the video currently circulated — juxtaposed with scenes from Hitler’s orations. The videos show similar concerns but appear to have different producers, and the newer video is more stark, even without the Hitler montage.
http://www.interpretermag.com/russia-this-week-new-us-sanctions-hit-closer-to-putin/

What's often not stated is that some elements self-defined left have kept the anachronistic view that Putinist Russia has anything "left" remaining in it. Opposition to the EU seems to be sufficient for their support, which is counter-intuitive given that the EU and a few US states are the primary remaining strongholds of progressive government, anywhere.

[JackRiddler]

63. Oh lord.

iterate: "the EU and a few US states are the primary remaining strongholds of progressive government, anywhere."

Jaysus H.

[Iterate]

82. Feel free to name a different 28 nation bloc

which better encapsulates a broad range of progressive ideals over the past generation. The act of the EU's creation has built a peace within its extent in Europe for nearly 70 years. If you can't acknowledge that small bit of human progress there's nothing more to add.

[JackRiddler]

84. It only expanded to 28 nations recently.

The organization now known as the EU is about 55 years old. It started as 6 countries and probably had 12 members for the longest period of its existence. Your terms in its praise are so general and weirdly specific at the same time that there's no way to respond.

You want to give credit to the EU as cause for qualities of recent European history (such as peace) that may actually have contributed to its growth (i.e., reversing the causality). Reminds me of people who want to credit all good things that happened in the last 200 years (like "democracy&quot to "capitalism." Your statement shows extremely simplistic understanding and little evidence you know much about the history in depth.

Nothing wrong with being ignorant, of course, it can be cured - if you weren't at the same time being such a blowhard in support of an institution that has become objectively repressive and regressive. The present-day European Union is a neoliberal attack machine, working on behalf of the 1% to cause the very problems it pretends to address. Its role in generating the Ukraine situation has been despicable.

Finally, it doesn't matter whether there is a superior "28-nation bloc." There is no obligation to support any given bloc of nations. What matters is that the EU is currently in the wrong on most of the world's essential political questions. "Better than the US" isn't very impressive - "Better than Russia" also isn't. It matters who's doing good, and who's doing evil. The EU is, on balance, not doing good. One need not support a different bloc of nations to acknowledge that.

[Iterate]

89. I've lived and worked in the EU for nearly 20 years,

so please proceed, tell me all about the EU. I guess I've missed out on the latest political clichés.

Or rather not, as your insult trolling is not interesting. Take it elsewhere.

[JackRiddler]

98. So did I and I'm not impressed with your posts.

I'll stand my ground as I will. If you don't like having your statements challenged on a message board, you can always start a blog of your own.

[joshcryer]

92. The EU, on balance, isn't violently shit stirring.

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to equate funding NGOs to arming thugs and taking over buildings by force, to taking people out into the wilderness, torturing them (cutting off their nose, ears), and leaving them to die.

I just can't equate the two.

Both are meddling but one is far more evil than the other, and it's not some NGOs getting some cash to hand out fucking cupcakes.

[JackRiddler]

97. "arming thugs..."

"... and taking over buildings by force, to taking people out into the wilderness, torturing them (cutting off their nose, ears), and leaving them to die."

Sounds about like your beloved Euro-Maidan-Svoboda-Right Sector crew. No, I wouldn't equate the two either!

[joshcryer]

99. What buildings did Maidan take by force?

Name one.

Right Sector did take a police station and burned it to the ground, taking weapons with them.

In the far western city Leiv.

No doubt a method espoused by the separatists time and time again in the east.

Meanwhile the Molotov throwers are arrested en mass.

Few arrests for the armed separatists. It took mob mentality after several Maidan protesters were shot dead for anyone to act. Now we have anti-Russia people partaking in pro-Russia pre-Maidan tactics and executing people in the middle of nowhere.

Just as Putin wanted.

[JackRiddler]

105. Executing people in the middle of nowhere!

Or at least, doing so in your imagination.

Or in your attributions. Every person murdered in this, you're going to try to attribute to the "Russian separatists" or soldiers you will claim are directly dispatched by Putin (who should have handed out cookies and some U.S. taxpayer money instead).

Because anything that happens -- even the burning of several dozen people trapped in a building -- you're going to blame on "pro-Russian" people (i.e., the ones who opposed the coup d'etat of their elected government, especially after it abolished Russian as a language of the state, in effect announcing that it was gunning for them on ethnic lines).

How about those people shot dead, not in the middle of nowhere, but in the middle of Kiev by snipers working for the coup d'etat?

[joshcryer]

109. You have a reading problem.

I said anti-Russians are now employing pro-Russian tactics of executing people in the middle of no where.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

129. My god, you are living in a fantasy world.

"How about those people shot dead, not in the middle of nowhere, but in the middle of Kiev by snipers working for the coup d'etat?"

You are a gullible, gullible, gullible little man.

[JackRiddler]

136. Then the Estonian foreign minister also lives there.

Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet tells EU's Cathy Ashton about claim that provocateurs were behind Maidan killings

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

Oh look, the entirely normal behavior of covert operations and power-mongering political factions through the ages - CIA and KGB included, of course.

Thing is, I don't have any particular interest in this beyond knowing U.S. policy and keeping this country out of stupid covert interventions. Whereas, to quote your attempt at an insult:

"You are a gullible, gullible, gullible little man."

[The Magistrate]

137. But What He Actually Said, Sir

Was that he had heard claims some shooting was by provocateurs. He did not state it was a fact, he did not say he believed what he heard. In short, his comment does not constitute evidence that snipers in Kiev were anything but police.

[JackRiddler]

140. There is no evidence that snipers in Kiev...

were of the Ukrainian police, or dispatched on orders from an agency or ally of the Yanukovich government. None whatsoever. It's just the default assumption in the state-aligned Western press, on no more basis than if something bad happens, it must have been the designated bad guys.

Also, this would have been an unbelievably counter-productive strategy if they were. The shootings contributed to a breakdown of order and undermined the government. Given the constellation of relative power, it's hard to see any kind of plus for the then government.

Not that "cui bono" constitutes proof, but it's a better basis for designating the initial neutral hypothesis than the idiotic level of "Putin=Bad" therefore Putin Always Did It. It's not like Euro Maidan didn't have all kinds of hooligans and violent, armed actors working within it, including out-and-out Nazis. It's also SOP for covert operations manuals generally -- nothing that the CIA and KGB haven't both done many, many times.

[The Magistrate]

143. The Real 'Default Assumption', Sir, Is That People Shot Are Shot By Their Opponents

And there is no reason to suppose anything else occurred in Kiev.

I will grant you some people desperately want something else to have occurred, and even have managed to convince themselves that it did, the wish being father to the fact, as it were....

[JackRiddler]

147. The snipers hit people on both sides.

So who were their opponents, big guy?

[The Magistrate]

148. No One Denies Some In The Crowds Were Armed, Sir, And Shot At Police by The End

You seem to imagine all shooting was done by a unified body of 'snipers', and that these accounted for all people struck by bullets.

That is nonesense.

There were police shooting at demonstrators, and demonstrators who shot back at police.

One of the oddest features of reportage on this sort of thing is the evident belief by many that any bullet which hits and does serious damage, particularly a bullet which strikes the head or upper chest and kills instantly, is fired by a sniper. Most shooting under stress is not very accurate, and a goodly portion of people hit where bullets are flying are struck by chance rather than direct aim, and of these, a portion will be struck in vital areas.

[JackRiddler]

149. You did the autopsies, big guy?

Don't tell me what I imagine. You want to deny the presence of snipers (in addition to shooting on the ground), you'll at least have to go beyond out-your-ass general speculation and actually take on the many reports that spoke of snipers (by reporters who were there, unlike you, with your magic ability to project yourself into their heads).

[The Magistrate]

150. Whatever, Sir

You have descended into self-parody.

[JackRiddler]

151. boilerplate & boring

[Tommy_Carcetti]

144. hear·say [heer-sey]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay

* unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one's direct knowledge

There's also double hearsay, which is a hearsay statement that, itself, contains another hearsay statement.

In your case, it's more like 500 times hearsay. And yet you repeat the claim as if it was 100% verified, accurate truth.

The Godfather notwithstanding, I stand by my original assessment.

[davidpdx]

9. Anti-Maiden is a very bad description

and frankly makes it confusing. Since (I assume) the group you are talking about favors the area to revert to Russian control you should label them as pro-Russian.

So what you are saying is the Pro-Russian group that was making molotov cocktails was forced into a building where some kind of violent despite broke out between both sides and people from both sides were killed. Is that correct?

[newthinking]

11. they don't prefer russia. They feel close to Russia but they would be fine with federalism

Um.... take a closer look at that picture. That was people that were part of the group that set the building on fire. They have been identified on vcontact as well as the leader.

I can't believe that people on a liberal site are justifying burning people fucking alive. Get a grip on your humanity for goodness sakes.


Can you really make excuses for something like this? Of course when they were cornered by people who were there to beat them they were going to defend themselves. Duh.

So tell me, why would the maidan have even prepared those moltovs? Why did they even go to the building with them? Um........

[davidpdx]

25. That was part of my point about the two who were making moltovs, it's dangerous no matter who's

who's doing it. My confusion with your post is who they are. Your use of anti-Maiden is not helpful. They are pro-Russian. Russia is the one who is pushing for federalizing the Ukraine.

Vcontact means nothing to me. Of all the reading I've done I've never come across the term. If you are going to use a term that is unfamiliar then you should define it to make it clear.

I don't condone violence. There is still a question in my mind as to who was throwing Molotovs.

This is from another news source besides the BBC, which tells me that BOTH sides were violent and BOTH sides suffered casualties:

Hundreds of separatists attacked a rally of around 1,500 people demonstrating for national unity.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0502/614765-ukraine/

I never justified burning people alive, so please get a grip on YOUR humanity. There is no excuse for either side being violent.

[newthinking]

29. vcontact (vk.com) is the Slavic version of "Facebook"

By the way, BBC actually mentions (though way down the page) that right sector was involved. Which is actually surprising because, though they have been heavily involved throughout the worst of what has happened in Ukraine they are rarely identified in the western press.

Once you start to understand the history and activity of Right Sector and Svoboda you start to understand a little better *why* things are happening as they are. It is easy for westerners to be ignorant to that component of what is happening in Ukraine, the trouble is, Ukrainians are *very* aware of it. That is why this is simply not going away. In fact after yesterday's events it is likely to escalate.

[Igel]

71. vKontakte should be known to all by now.

The young guy that was the founder of the "In contact" (which is what v kontakte means) social media site was recently forced out. That was what, 2-3 weeks ago. The story's a bit convoluted, with a resignation, withdrawn resignation, resignation withdrawal that might have been accepted but which was actually never unaccepted, etc. The founder felt compelled to leave his fatherland rather quickly.

He just got citizenship in Nevis and St. Kitts. Wealthy guy. His main problem was that he no use for Putin and resisted submitting control over vKontakte and its user content to the "Internet oversight" committee and functionaries. While all the resignation/withdrawal stuff is a mess, the bit about control and oversight is straightforward and has been from the get-go.

His replacement at the head of vKontakte is a Putin buddy. It's now social media with a possible slant. Lots of the site are as before, but you have to watch out because it now has explicit editorial control over things that might matter to the PTB.

It's no longer the Russian Facebook and less so every day.

[Adrahil]

128. I certainly don't support it from EITHER side. The Pro-Russian side was lobbing Petrobombs too. NT

[newthinking]

13. There is so many people making judgements that don't know the country

Odessa is not the same as Donetsk. It is south-West. In Donetsk they are closer to Russia. Odessa'ns mostly want to be part of Ukraine, but they mostly speak Russian there and it appears that many there don't identify with the new government. Odessa was never on the same wavelength as West Ukraine.

This whole thing would die down if Kiev would have been open to some kind of federalization. Like in the states, but despite the fact that the Interim President made a statement he was open to it, he has made multiple promises that he was not going to allow it and he has to actually make a solid gesture before anyone will believe it. Do people really think that at this point compromise (instead of killing masses of people) would not be a good idea?

What happened today is all over Ukrainian and Russian sites and it is going to have repercussions. To people living there this is very real, and we may not want to admit it but the population in these areas is afraid of the current government because they have not reigned in their extremists.

[JackRiddler]

106. Thanks!

[Warpy]

10. Look again at those people on top of the building

there was a woman and two men. They had something lined up on the ledge. Look closely. Only the tents had been set alight at that point, and that's when the video ended, probably because that's really when the shit hit the fan.

Riots are like that.

It was unclear who was firing the pistol into the crowd, only that a man was doing so.

Two things stood out at me besides the people on the roof with their gas bombs: first, there were all ages rioting, from teenagers to grey haired men; second, that they were pouring beer on the ground instead of drinking it in order to free up more bottles for gas bombs quickly.

[newthinking]

14. Yes of course they did

Once maidan was allowed to use bombs it became standard practice. But if you notice in this case they are on the defensive. There just was no excuse for burning them in place. I can't believe I am having to even argue this.

[Bosonic]

15. I guess now it's also standard practice to have firearms and shoot people dead

Note, all this before the unfortunate firebombing.

[newthinking]

18. By the way, they have not made a positive identification on that gunman

He may have shot into both groups, they are still investigating. But you are correct that they need to deal with it all.

[Warpy]

19. How are you certain they were burned in place?

The only things on fire when the video ended were the tents.

At least now you admit both sides used firebombs.

ETA: The BBC has a slightly better report and says it's not clear who died and where and how many died, but some were observed jumping out of the building to escape the thick smoke.

[newthinking]

20. There are videos all over

If you are *really* interested in digging into what happened here is the link to an odessa site with a timeline and links to what happened. You will need to use something like google translate if you don't know the Russian language.

http://dumskaya.net/

I am having trouble finding the video I saw earlier of the actual fire.

Here is one though where they are celebrating after they killed them at the site of the massacre. If that does not chill you I am not sure what will.
These are not good guys. These are mostly "Right Sector". They chanted "Death to the enemies" as they watched it burn.

[davidpdx]

30. Wait a second...

You just said both sides were not throwing bombs.

[url=http://www.imghack.se/160139][img][/img][/url]

That is simply not true.

[newthinking]

33. I stand corrected on that.

I didn't see them being thrown and had not caught them on the video until after it was mentioned. But surely they would have at some point used them during the assault.

[davidpdx]

28. Newthinking clearly used a poor choice of words in #4

when he stated that both sides were not throwing bombs.

Here it is:

[url=http://www.imghack.se/160139][img][/img][/url]

[newthinking]

34. Here is the video showing Right Sector throwing moltov's

Notice that at this point they are continuing to stoke the already burning fire.

This is a new low you have to admit. In Kiev maidan threw some molotovs on the police and at buildings but not when they were full of people.

They were chanting "Death to the enemy"!

[Warpy]

6. It's a mess. It's going to take time to settle down.

Thanks to Putin's land grab, it will take more time than it would have if Putin had stayed within his own borders.

[dipsydoodle]

46. Over 150 Odesa demonstrators arrested, three criminal inquiries under way

Police have arrested 160 most active demonstrators in Odesa, according to the website of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry.

Three criminal cases have been opened over mass disturbances: two under Article 294 part two (mass unrest) and the third one under Article 345 part three (threat or violence against a law enforcement officer) of the Ukrainian Criminal Code.

It was reported earlier that over 130 people had been held and ten criminal inquiries launched under Article 294 (mass unrest), Article 115 (voluntary manslaughter), Article 345 (threat or violence against law-enforcement officers), Article 296 (hooliganism), Article 341 (seizure of state or public buildings and facilities) and Article 194 (intentional destruction or damage to property of citizens).

Mass scuffles broke out between Ukrainian government supporters and opponents in Odesa on May 2. According to the latest reports, 42 people have been killed and 125 injured and hospitalized, including 21 policemen, the interior ministry said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/over-150-odesa-demonstrators-arrested-three-criminal-inquiries-under-way-346101.html

[JackRiddler]

54. Golly what's missing in the front of this article?

Forces supporting the coup d'etat government - "pro-Ukrainian" in the Newspeak - set a fire that killed dozens of people in a building occupied by forces seeking to secede due to the seizure of power by a coup d'etat government - "pro-Russian" in the Newspeak.

[EX500rider]

75. Generally speaking you'll find the ones with RUSSIAN flags..

...are indeed pro-Russian, while the ones with Ukrainian flags are usually going to be pro-Ukraine.

[NuclearDem]

78. But that just could be a false...

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■ )

....flag.

[JackRiddler]

81. Flag-lovers would agree.

They like to reduce things to their love for a piece of cloth, or for the etnic mythology they like to think the cloth represents.

Meanwhile, in Ukraine, a coup d'etat overthrew the elected government in the name of "Ukrainian" nationalism and stirred up a bunch of revanchists on the "Russian" side. Reasonable people who were past these categories and thought they were citizens of a republic are the ones being fucked foremost.

[EX500rider]

86. "Over thru the government" You mean the President hi tailed it out of the country before..

....corruption charges could put him in jail?

[laurent]

154. There was a putsch.

That's what forced the democratically elected president out of office and out of the country.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

102. Your whole "nations don't matter" schtick fails immediately in this situation.

You appear to reserve all your outrage for the Ukrainians (or as you call them, "Ukrainians&quot and only exhibit token concern towards the Russians who want to run rough shot over the Ukrainian land thanks to the advantageous situation. And then you have the audacity to pare out the people you claim are being "fucked."

[JackRiddler]

152. You must not be talking to me...

I'm the "nations matter too much" guy.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

153. No, I'm talking to you.

Your position of "Ukraine" (in quotes) and claiming that people are arguing over a piece of cloth seems to me to be that your claiming that people shouldn't get caught up too much in national identity, and that nations and countries are fluid, self-imposed concepts.

Which is fine, I guess, if every country wants to play that game and we all buy each other Cokes.

The problem is, when you have some countries asserting the dominant position (in this instance, Russia), and other countries being forced into the subservient position (here this being Ukraine), national identity does become quite relevant.

Russia doesn't want Ukrainians to become "Earth Citizens." They want them to become Russians. And there's something fundamentally wrong about that behavior.

[JackRiddler]

155. Uh huh. Sure.

Maybe the protesters shouldn't have allied with extreme rightists and Nazis against the irrationally hated ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens (even if there are fascists among the Russian side too, hardly a reason). And maybe they shouldn't have overthrown the elected government instead of waiting for the next election.

And maybe the coup government, in the decisive moment, should have called for national reconciliation. But lookeesee here, on their first day, they banned Russian as a language of the state, although this language is spoken by the majority of Ukrainian state citizens. Thus sending a very clear signal that their priorities were not peaceful, or political, but to exploit ethnic tensions for their own gain. So that a new mix of roughly the same oligarchs plus or minus could rule the roost.

The reaction and the over-reaction on the Russian side is not all justifiable, but it is predictable! It cannot be condemned as any worse than the series of initial provocations by the coup d'etat government -- a coalition of IMF-compatible neoliberals and extreme right-wingers backed by the United States government's most criminal agencies (the CIA and the FBI). The U.S., every inch the oligarchy that Russia is. Except world-spanning. So that where Russian oligarchs beat up and kill people on the street to take over regional resource corporations, it is today the American oligarchs on Wall Street who flat-out starve millions to make a few percent extra, which adds up to trillions. And they keep their hands clean, it's all paper transactions, so they're wonderful people. And enough of that trickles down that a larger middle class can be bought off and persuaded it's all good and it's all free.

If you had the ability to at least acknowledge that there are no good guys in this, and that the decisive descent into ethnic madness came not from the Russians, but from the coup d'etat government. I'm sure what everyone needs is another hundred years of both sides claiming horrible traumas were inflicted on them and blaming the imagined other to the Nth generation. And they will both be right! Just as the Ukrainian nationalists are right about the 1930s (whatever the exaggerations) and the Russian nationalists are right about the Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis.

Another fucking Yugoslavian hellscape. Dragging in all the young people who didn't even know they were supposed to hate the ethnic other, until the shooting started. Madness. Backed by your heroic State Department, and your kindly IMF. Thanks to selective blindness the only crimes that will be visible to you will be the Russian's, however.

[Sunlei]

79. "throwing petrol bombs" only good thing was someone put ladders up so people could escape the smoke.

In that part of the world, about 70 years ago, there were buildings set on fire- but the doors were nailed shut.

[Charlos]

83. what a tragedy

my prayers to the families