Ukraine Says Operations Against Rebels Continue; "We Are Not Stopping"

[Comrade Grumpy]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Ukraine said military operations against pro-Russian separatists in the industrial east of the country continued at dawn on Saturday near the town of Kramatorsk, vowing it would not stop a bid to dislodge them.

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said Ukrainian forces had seized control of a television tower in Kramatorsk, near the rebel stronghold of Slaviansk, but gave no information on possible casualties. Slaviansk was the target on Friday of the most significant advance by Ukrainian forces since the start of an armed uprising in the east a month ago, stalled by well-armed separatists who brought down two military helicopters and dug in the town of 130,000.

"The active phase of the operation continued at dawn," Avakov wrote on his Facebook page. "We are not stopping."

Overnight, Russian media reported fighting near Kramatorsk, citing hospital sources as saying one person had been killed and nine wounded. That followed the deaths of two helicopter crew in Slaviansk. Separatists said three fighters and two civilians were also killed in the Ukrainian advance on the town.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/03/us-ukraine-crisis-kramatorsk-idUSBREA4201T20140503

---

Should be an interesting day...

[joshcryer]

1. I bet that a lot of Maiden people die today.

The attack against armed fascists emboldened them but it also put the sepratists in check. Next time you see people carrying Molotovs you shoot.

Of course, if that happens, then the Maiden folks will likely arm themselves with real weapons, that can attack at a distance, don't risk hurting the person carrying it, and have much more accuracy: guns.

Maiden with guns will, naturally, be called armed fascists.

Nevermind these assholes taking over government buildings by force.

[cosmicone]

5. you don't say!!!!!

I had no idea the right sektor and svoboda people were disciples of Gandhi and Dalai Lama. I am shocked.

[Adrahil]

6. If you think all those opposing Putin's puppets are far right fascists, you're quite wrong. NT

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. Kremlin can't control Ukrainian rebels - Putin

Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesperson Dmitry Peskov says the Kremlin no longer has any influence over rebels in the east of Ukraine.

"From now on Russia essentially has lost its influence over these people because it will be impossible to convince them to lay down arms when there's a direct threat to their lives," he said.

Mr Peskov added that "speaking about elections is absurd to say the least."
...
Other agencies also quoted Mr Peskov as saying that Russia had lost influence over the so-called self-defence forces in the south-east Ukraine, and could not resolve the situation by itself.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/243246/kremlin-can%27t-control-ukrainian-rebels-putin

[karynnj]

4. Note the wording carefully:

"no longer" --- implies they once did. Same with "lost".

There are two possibilities here:
1) They are telling the truth and they have lost what they at least encouraged.

2) They still really do have influence, but by saying this are saying to the US/EU that it is not them. As the only real weapon the US/EU has at this point is sanctions directed as Russia - it could be the first step to arguing they should be removed (and never increased.)

(Ironically, though no one in the US government has ever said it, there is a possible parallel with this in that the US in 2011 and 2012 likely encouraged the Syrian "moderates" to protest -- and we in no way control the rebels at this point. Unlike in Kiev, where a significant part of the elected Parliament put in place an interim government AND declared elections in 90 days, the leaders of the Pro-Russian side appear to include many people with very radical believes. In fact, the eastern protesters more readily fit what Russia claims Kiev is than the reality of who is ruling Kiev. )

[sabrina 1]

8. Actually that is not what it means, IF you have been following the tragedy over there.

There was a coup in Kiev, an 'interim, meaning not elected, president, said by Nuland of the US State Dept to be 'our guy' was appointed until an election, which btw, could have happened WITHOUT the coup.

The Kiev protesters included some pretty shady characters from the growing Right Nationalist movement throughout some European nations.

As soon as the coup ended, Kiev did some uneffbelievable things starting with where they KNEW there would be opposition to put Ukraine under the control of the IMF/World Bank. The banned Russian as an official language to begin with. Since large numbers of Ukrainians do their business in that language, (imagine banning English here after the Revolution eg) which instantly created fear in the Eastern part of Ukraine regarding the intentions of the Kiev interim govt.

They sent in the Military against their own people to 'crush' protests, another frightening act for people who want AUTONOMY for Ukraine and who, IF as claimed, Ukraine is a Democracy, had to right to protest FOR. They don't want the IMF or Russia to take over their country, that has been made clear by them.

However when Crimea came under attack, they voted to annex themselves to Russia mostly to avoid being under the thumb of the IMF and for protection against the suspected intentions of the Kiev Govt. It appears they were wise to do so as we now see Tanks and Helicopters being sent out to 'control' their own people. This doesn't look like any democracy to me, but maybe I don't understand that word anymore. After we had Robo Cops coordinated at a Fed level, armed with military grade weapons sent out all over THIS country to 'crush' our own peaceful protests.

The Neo Nazi Nationalists are attacking people in the East who have set up barricades to keep the military out of their towns.

And sadly, as anyone could have predicted, an enormous tragedy has now occurred with the Right Wing Nationalists setting a building on fire where ordinary people were hiding to get AWAY from the riots on the streets, and 46 innocent civilians are now dead in Odessa.

And just what were they THINKING to send out the military against its own people? And to unleash these Right Wing Nationalists to create in towns across the Eastern part of Ukraine?

All for the IMF?

I think we can guess what the next move will be. 'NATO will vote to go 'protect the civilians' despite the fact, btw, that Ukraine is NOT a NATO country, but then nor was Libya or Syria. AIRC our policy now to take over the economies and assets of other strategic nations, is to 'use proxy armies', destabilize, using genuine protesters, then infiltrate them with, well whoever is present or from outside, see Libya and Syria, then move in to 'protect them'.

I don't know who is running this, but NONE of this needed to happen. All they had to do to get rid of a corrupt government, was all democracies do, HOLD AN ELECTION and let the people speak. But for some reason they didn't want to do that! Maybe because their 'guys' wouldn't win such an election since Ukraine wants to be autonomous it appears and NOT under the thumb of the IMF.

[karynnj]

9. Your condescension is pretty extreme - I have been following the tragedy there

and I fully do get that the Russians are looking at this as starting last November. As to your rant - I have no intention of commenting on each of your assertions. Most are completely unrelated to what I wrote and read like a summary of everything RT has written. However, the comments today are different and are, in fact, interesting - and you are ignoring them completely.

They have always denied that they had anything to do with the completely independent separatists. Now the wording used is saying they have no CURRENT control. Using words like "lost control" suggest that they had it at one point.

My point is that Russia may well be slightly deescalating their position. They did broker the release of the German OSCE members and these statements tacitly imply that they are admitting they had some prior role in supporting the separatists. This obviously does not mean they will agree with the US/EU, however it may suggest that there is some hope that they allow Ukraine (both pro Russian and pro Kiev) to look at the reforms that have been proposed already and to have the needed election.

Would you care to actually comment on what I said and/or what the op said?

[sabrina 1]

12. The reference was to the Geneva talks where all parties agreed to try to tamp down the

violence. That is what he meant, he can no longer influence anything there anymore. Imagine him now trying to tell the people of Odessa, 'don't get upset everything is going to be fine' AFTER they have lost so many people. He is correct, it is unlikely now that ANYONE can influence anyone there.

His comment was in no way related to prior 'support', it was related to the agreement of all parties who had any way to influence events on all sides, which is now no longer possible.

I noticed your condescending reference to the sources DUers use to try to get actual facts in a nation where our own media has been taken over the Corporations. I suppose I could be as insulting as you chose to be and state that your interpretation of Putin's statement sounds like it came directly from the Corporate Media 'stenographers'.

I use dozens of sources from all over the world to try to find some truth here where we get nothing but propaganda, which I assumed at least those of us on the Left understood.

To imply that other DUers are so stupid that they use only source of info could not BE more condescending.

Most DUers I am familiar with have ALWAYS sought out multiple sources, my summary comes from World Wide reporting on the this situation, and from people who are actually there trying to keep the world informed, from the beginning.

This could all have been avoided had the Ukraine people VOTED rather than be subjected with only a small minority participating, to a coup.

I am sure this will all be used now as an excuse not to hold an election. As if it all was not predictable, AND PREDICTED by many observers, journalists and writers very familiar with the situation not just in Ukraine, but all over Europe since those countries too have been subjected to the IMF Austerity 'programs'.

[karynnj]

14. sources??? I mentioned just one -- the propaganda arm of Russia!

I have always sought MANY sources. The sources have been varied by political view and nationality. You would have a point if I posted just the public statements of the WH and the State Department. I have always read a wide variety of news sources - and regret that there are far fewer genuinely independent sources than there once were.

[sabrina 1]

15. You implied that I use ONLY that source. And my reference to your take on the statement

was to return the implication more to demonstrate that we can all use 'tactics' like that, attempt to imply that if someone doesn't agree with them, it has to be because they use only 'one' source.

I remember back in the Bush days when Al Jazeera was on the ground, and our 'reporters' were 'embedded' or 'controlled' as some later admitted, and the same attacks were launched at their reporters. They were accused of being the 'propaganda arm' of a 'Moooselim' Govt by members from the top of our Govt at the time.

Deja Vu all over again. All that does and did re Al Jazeera was to make them even more popular. Of course we on the Left were never fooled by that propaganda, that attempt to silence reporters. I remember donating to them when asked when I might not have even known about them had they not come under such attack by our Government.

RT is a legitimate source, as was Al Jazeera. And as is Indian, Chinese, British, Irish, and many African sources including Chilean and other Latin American sources and people will gather as much information as they choose, from all those sources, many of THEM, including the BBC, financed by THEIR Govts.

Yes, it is hard to find totally unbiased sources, but reporters with genuine credentials from all over the world, who are actually doing what reporters here used to do, covering war zones everywhere, risking their lives, American, S. African, British etc are the most likely to know what is happening ON the ground as was the case with Al Jazeera during Bush's illegal invasion. Wherever I can find such investigative war correspondents I will listen to what they have to say, and balance it against others doing the same thing. We have NO investigative journalists working for our Corporate Media in Ukraine that I am aware of. I will listen to them too if I should find one.

[dionysus]

29. "RT is a legitimate source"

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Wow. Does it make you dizzy to spin that much?

"The Neo Nazi Nationalists are attacking people in the East who have set up barricades to keep the military out of their towns."

They are armed militants, who have kidnapped journalists and murdered dissenting politicians. You don't have to call them "terrorists" if you don't want to, but don't insult our intelligence by claiming they are peaceful "protesters" being attacked out of pure malice.

I hope it ends as bloodless as possible. These militants been given numerous opportunities to abandon the buildings they've seized without any recourse. But they've refused to do so.

[sabrina 1]

11. You forget, we don't have to rely on the spin from the Corporate Media anymore.

But thanks for trying.

[karynnj]

17. Because RT, owned and operated by Russia is so much less biased than the NYT, the WP

and the Chicago Tribune - to name just three. There is more diversity beteen the conservative Chicago Tribune, the neo con Washington Post and the NYT than between RT and the other Russian sources.

It is just as ridiculous to claim that the separatists are all just local people keeping neo fascists out of their towns as to claim there were no bad elements in Kiev.

As you mature, you usually learn that almost nothing is black or white - there are shades of gray. Even though I see more nuance, I understand your abhorrence with what you see as American policy, but I don't understand why you than accept - at face value - the Russian POV - ignoring that Putin is the former head of the KGB.

[sabrina 1]

21. The Corporate Media. You have faith in the corporate

owned US Media now rated somewhere below #50 on the World Press list of free journalism? You call it 'diverse'? Post one link to any US Media outlet with a national audience on the topic of any of our 'Foreign Interventions'.

Are you stating that RT is the ONLY International news organization with war correspondents from all over the world in Ukraine? Where are you GETTING this info from?

I believe we just had this discussion where I pointed out to you that your assumption that DUers use ONLY ONE source for their news was extremely condescending. And of course so outrageously inaccurate it is embarrassing for you, especially since your assumption about DUers has already been corrected.

However, I know what is going on here, so do most other DUers. I am amused by it I have to admit.

The FACTS are that Ukraine was the target of the IMF as its next 'victim' for its draconian 'loans' with interest that can NEVER be paid back. It has ravaged once sovereign European first world nations like Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Greece, taken a look at Greece lately?

Maybe you should read Naomi Klein's 'Shock Doctrine'. It would help you understand the IMF attempt to take over Ukraine, a country whose economy is devastated, that's what they like, people in shock over their country's economies, then they move in, put a stranglehold of debt in place, when the country cannot pay it back, they take their national resources.

But surely everyone on the Left already knows this? Are you seriously not aware of what the IMF has done to Third World Countries for decades, and their move into First World countries over the past decade? How odd.

[karynnj]

25. Russia was FAR lower on the list -- just saying

EVERY major US paper has had articles about the US interventions. I read Naomi Klein long ago and heard her speak.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. You're deflecting.

But what are you saying? That the people in the government buildings in Eastern Ukraine aren't armed with AK-47s and grenade launchers? And they're not kidnapping journalists and murdering people?

[sabrina 1]

22. What are YOU saying, and what are your sources? Please do not provide anything from the

Corporate Media. Remember the Rendon Group, I do. And I see signs of it again right now, see the Duck Dynasty look alikes attempt to pass them off as Russian soldiers and by the NYT AGAIN! Did you see the actual photographer of those photos totally debunk the NYT's claims? How embarrassing it is for this country that the NYT supposedly the most 'trusted' source we have, is again being exposed as simply passing on propaganda.

Please provide an unbiased source for your claims, otherwise what we know is that the Kiev unelected government has sent in its military AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE to 'crush' protests against their actions, against the IMF, against the coup rather than an election.

Show me something credible, otherwise I will go with FACTS that are known. Shame on Kiev for attacking its own people with its own military. It is shameful.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. I fear nothing I give you will satisfy your fantasies.

Everything will be too "corporate" for your taste.

It doesn't matter though. Even if you believe that the militants are 100% Ukrainian locals with no Russian involvement or support whatsoever, you have to agree they are there, right? With AK-47s and grenade launchers?

Unless you are claiming that they are all just actors, in which case you have about as much grasp on reality as the sick people who think the Sandy Hook massacre was a hoax.

[sabrina 1]

24. I agree to nothing I have not seen proof of. I HAVE seen the Ukraine Army sent by the Kiev

'interim' Govt to 'crush' their word btw, protests in South Eastern Ukraine. That is what is KNOWN. Do you deny that the Kiev Govt has sent in the Ukraine Army to attack its own people?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. The Ukrainian government mobilized its military....

....in response to well-armed militants taking over government buildings by force and engaging in campaigns of intimidation including kidnapping and murder.

I will agree that some of these militants are probably Ukrainian citizens, most likely ethnic Russians who desire the region be ceded to Russia. I also highly suspect Russian military agents to be mixing in with these groups and helping to supply and coordinate them. In the end, though, they are all armed militants, and armed militants are armed militants.

If you are asking whether I believe the Ukrainian government has ordered the military to go in and attack and shoot unarmed citizens, then no. I do not believe that. It would make no sense whatsoever for the Ukrainian government to make such orders, even if you believe the very worst about the Ukrainian government.

[dionysus]

28. ooookayyyyy.. i think you need one of these;

?height=225&width=225

[Beacool]

36. You're damn right!!!

I would use that bankie as a door mat.

[sabrina 1]

47. Lol, that's what I call desperation. I was a 'Saddam Fan, cheerleader, etc'. also. Are there no

NEW, creative, insults at all? Those old ones have been so overused it's like being forced to watch reruns of Rocky 98 over and over again.

Same size fits all 'bag of lame insults' Left, Right. I wonder who originally paid for the 'you love Saddam' right wing talking points? Which Think Tank?

To be fair, I do understand the need to try to avoid talking about the issues though. The facts, as they were for right wingers during the Iraq/Constitution destroying illegal invasion, are admittedly, very inconvenient.

Seriously, we on the Left surely can do better than those old Bush supporters.

I KNOW I could, if I was afraid of the facts.

[dionysus]

55. and i call that a strawman. i doubt you were a saddamn fan, but you'r seriously carrying water for

RT\Putin, presumably to stick it to "the west" and\or Dems.

[sabrina 1]

58. Lol, this is exactly WHY I was supposedly a 'Saddam Fan'!.

' you'r seriously carrying water for Al Jazeera/Terrorist Qatar/RT\Putin, presumably to stick it to "the west" and\or Dems/Repubs'.

We were:

'Al Jazeera/Terrorist Lovers'

'Blame America Firsters'

'Haters of Bush'

'Blinded by Hate for Republicans' Oh, and

COMMIES!.

I'm having a real sense of Deja Vu here. Did I make a wrong turn or something?

'You love Putin./Saddam/fill in the blank!! Reusable talking points, well at least it's fiscally 'conservative'.

Btw, were you ONE of them then, or one of US then? Did they call YOU a 'Saddam Lover' or what?

So this is what 'change' meant after all. Democrats using Right Wing attacks against Democrats.

Something to consider, you and they are now on the same page. Did you know that they too have substituted 'Putin' for 'Saddam' against those of us Liberals who STILL oppose Bush's brutal FPs?

Remember the Dixie Chicks? I remember we all went out and bought their CDs in order to protect them from those vile, disgusting attacks and deliberate misinterpretations of their words.

?1363007229

My advice, find some talking points to attack other Dems with other than these old familiar ones. It confuses people when Democrats use Republican anti-Dem talking points to attack, once again, Democrats with.

[TwilightGardener]

3. They have no choice. I wish them luck.

[Adrahil]

7. Here's to a quick resolution with as little blood as possible. NT

[uhnope]

13. "rebels" with Russian surface-to-air missiles = Russian military, thugs, agents

let's be honest. This is Putin's Greater Russia's plan, armed and led by the Russian military, in destroying the sovereign country of Ukraine

[sabrina 1]

16. I would be more than willing to 'face that' if there was any proof. The last 'proof' offered

by Western media turned out to be a couple of Duck Dynasty look alikes who it was later proven, by the actual photographer who took the photos, to have been totally fabricated. And yet the NYT published that piece of 'proof' without even checking the facts. So when people see these attempts, three of which have turned out to be false so far, it's hard to give any credibility to them.

What we see in reality is all we have to go on. We see the Kiev Interim Govt sending the MILITARY to attack its own people. To try to force them to be silent on their opinions of being placed under the thumb of the IMF.

Until there is proof of anything else, that is what the world is seeing.

[uhnope]

18. IMF conspiracy theories & Kremlin agitprop vs the fact that 2 helicopters were shot down by missiles

that "rebel" groups couldn't have unless the Russian military supplied them--or more likely, that the Russian military itself, out of uniform, is using in Ukraine.

Pull your head out of the sand. America's not always the evil in every equation. Putin is steamrollering over democracy and is expanding his empire into "New Russia"

[sabrina 1]

19. Wait, are you denying the IMF was in Kiev providing one of their infamous 'loans' as soon as the

coup took place? Are you saying the IMF has not been reducing once sovereign European nations, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Greece to the status of 'debtor' nations as they have been doing for years in Third World countries?? Whoever thought these European nations would be under the thumb of the IMF and their 'austerity' programs? But tht is what has happened.

I'm not following you. There is NO DOUBT that the initial controversy in Ukraine began when the former ousted president chose not to take an IMF loan and chose the offer from Moscow instead. At that point all hell broke loose and the Western powers started their involvement on the ground. See Nuland's leaked statements.

I can't believe what I read here sometimes.

[uhnope]

27. No, you wait. You're comparing IMF debt to surface to air missiles? To actual invasion?

You like to use that term "under the thumb". You think being "under the thumb" of IMF debt is comparable to being under the actual dictatorship of Putin's regime? Please tell us that you're kidding

[dionysus]

30. no, they're not kidding. a putin apologist to the bone. nt

[sabrina 1]

44. I was a Saddam lover too, did you know that?

Old talking points never die, they just get recycled. And apparently they are bi-partisan now!

In honor of the substitute for discussion I simply have to add

[joshcryer]

31. It's like cupcakes compared to AK-47s and APCs.

That's just how out of touch the Putinists are. They think it's really a valid argument. The state department funds for some damn tents and food to some NGOs, and it's worse than armed Russian thugs shooting people, kidnapping people, dumping politicians bodies in rivers, taking people out into the middle of the woods and torturing them then leaving them for dead.

All because maybe 10-20% of the protesters are idiot fascists. It reminds me of the right wing smears about Occupy because Occupiers had 20-30% vagrants (either homeless, alcoholics, drug users, etc).

[NuclearDem]

32. Nope, not kidding at all. Cookies are the same things as surface to air missiles.

And God knows Russian diplomats would never have a conversation similar to Nuland's.

[sabrina 1]

34. Is that the new talking point? Twice in one thread. I have a habit of collecting talking points,

an old habit going back to my days of arguing with moronic Bush supporters. Their talking points were childish and lame. But THEY thought they were brilliant. So many of them now realize how they were used for political purposes. Too bad it took them so long, so many lives might have been saved.

46 human beings were burned alive in a building in Odessa. From what we know so far, they were hiding from the violence outside the building.

All were citizens of Eastern Ukraine.

A human tragedy of mammoth proportions and all some people can think of is, 'how does this effect my political party'?

We truly have sunk to a new low.

RIP to the victims and condolences to their families. Not all Americans are only interested in their particular political parties. I hope the world understands that

Some of us actually do care about human beings.

You go ahead and play politics.

I have a need to go somewhere quiet and think about those poor people as human beings without the corrosive influence of politics.

Enjoy your evening ...

[NuclearDem]

35. Well that was a pretty stupid leap of logic.

Mixed with an equally stupid ad hominem. Because I don't buy a false equivalence between Russian and US imperialism vis a vis Ukraine, I don't care about the casualties from the violence.

You really have got to cut the shit, Sabrina. We've been over and over this, and everytime, you make completely erroneous assumptions about me.

But please, do continue to lecture the descendant of a Latvian expat who saw half his family and friends either executed or shipped off to Siberia when they opposed Russia deciding they wanted a piece of Eastern Europe. Go ahead, I dare you.

This has fuck all to do with "my political party", which is another stupid assumption that I'm a Democratic Party loyalist--nothin could be actually further from the truth. It has everything to do with those human beings deaths' being in no small way on the hands of that imperialist bastard to the east who has a vested interest in keeping eastern Ukraine destabilized.

We're done here.

[uhnope]

37. thx for letting me know that "Sabrina" is a known quantity who avoids

the actual issue of a Russian dictator's reign of democracy-crushing power in a pursuit of Greater Russia

[joshcryer]

43. Once posted United Russia pics.

Never edited the post once corrected.

[sabrina 1]

49. Are you still stalking me after the numerous times I have requested that you STOP.

Your post creeps me out frankly, that some stranger on the internet is combing my comments, and there are tens of thousands of them so it's quite a task, then posting some cryptic reference to a supposed post with the intention of implying something nefarious, this has gone too far. I believe it may be time to bring this to the attention of the Admins. It is EASY to avoid someone especially AFTER they have requested it of you for YEARS now.

I see you are unable to comply with my multiple requests due to finding your obsession with me to be very disturbing, I had hoped it had been settled without bothering anyone else. Clearly it is not.

[NuclearDem]

51. "combing my comments, and there are tens of thousands of them so it's quite a task"

Not really. With the relevant search parameters, it took me less than a minute on Google. First result, in fact.

Checking someone's previous posts to see what they posted on a subject does not constitute stalking. You posted on a public message board, obviously with the intent of the message being read.

[joshcryer]

52. United Russia is fascist, but that fact is buried.

[joshcryer]

53. One doesn't really forget United Russia apologia.

I mean, on DU of all places?

Remembering something so egregious isn't controversial at all, and such information is useful to others in their analysis.

[sabrina 1]

45. I tried, but it didn't even come close to the latest talking point you delivered above, speaking of

'giant leaps of logic'.

'I'm done here'. Well I'm not. I get that you want to post a personal assault on someone who simply has a different pov, lots of people would like that. But you don't get to personally attack people and then order them to be silent.

I am a descendant of an oppressed people also, probably most of us are given the world's history, don't make assumptions about other people you know nothing about.

You have no clue who is responsible for the massive crime in Odessa so your opinion is just that. What we do know from almost all reports is WHO they were. Which make your accusations of guilt completely illogical.

[NuclearDem]

48. "I get that you want to post a personal assault on someone who simply has a different pov"

Uh, you baselessly accused me of not caring about the victims of the Odessa fire on blatant partisan grounds.

A human tragedy of mammoth proportions and all some people can think of is, 'how does this effect my political party'?

Despite that I've never been a party loyalist at all, and I've explained repeatedly to you that this is about Russia's brutal imperialist history in Eastern Europe and not at all about my allegiances at home.

You have no clue who is responsible for the massive crime in Odessa so your opinion is just that.

That's funny, because I don't remember engaging in any such speculation at all on the cause of the fire.

But you don't get to personally attack people and then order them to be silent.

I advised you to stop making baseless accusations and ridiculous ad hominems, because it does absolutely no one any favors. You've done it before, and you're doing it again. If you can't handle your POV being subjected to scrutiny, that's not my problem.

[joshcryer]

59. Check "tiny internet games".

You will see the depths of the hatred, just to win an argument.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

40. the cookies are one of their main talking points

pretty much how its usually those who support Snowden who throw the 'boxes in the garage' line at those who don't trust what he is saying without evidence to try and discredit them when they can't counter criticism of Snowden.

Its a fairly transparent tactic these days but i keep hoping DU will return its more sane incarnation compared to what its become now.

Don't let em get to ya and keep up being yerself

[sabrina 1]

46. I know, and I won't. I see it as a sign of frustration probably trying to

keep up with supporting those they placed their trust in, only to find they are at odds with what they once supported and opposed. That is who they should be angry with. They are who make things difficult for them by constantly doing things that are very difficult to defend. So the default position when you are in such a position is to attack people personally and avoid the issues.

The best way not to be in that untenable situation is to stick to supporting the issues you always supported even when those you trusted let you down.

Thanks, Bodhi Bloodwave

[sabrina 1]

33. Huh? Do you realize that most DUers are very familiar with diversionary tactics. I notice you

avoided addressing the situation in Europe and the IMF. Why is that? Is it inconvenient? Maybe you are not familiar with the devastation of Europe's economies? Would you like some help understanding the issue or, wait, maybe you just prefer not to talk about it?

Take your pick, I'm willing to discuss anything, including the facts about the IMF's history of moving in to countries after they have suffered some form of disaster, offering them loans with conditions that strangle them and interest rates they can never pay back, then stealing their resources and national assets to 'repay' those loans.

You seem reluctant to actually discuss the IMF for some reason. Surely you are not a supporter of the IMF, I have never met a Democrat who was unaware of the devastation wreaked on Third World nations by the IMF/World Bank so this would be an interesting discussion.

So. I take it you are a supporter of the IMF. Why don't we start there to clear up that point and then we can continue from that point?

[Obnoxious_One]

38. The illigitimate government in Kiev are acting like a military dictatorship.

This is wholesale murder in progress, sanctioned by western governments.
When the Russians entered East Ukraine they were welcomed and there was no bloodshed.
But now an unelected government is slaughtering its own people and burning them Alive. How is this savagery any different than that of a military dictatorship?
The people of east Ukraine have no interest in western austerity, they refuse to be ruled by a puppet government.
If you're not aware of it already, please look up Victoria Miranda's audio tape where she discusses picking the potential replacements for Ukraine's president before the coup.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. You're a little late to the tired talking points party.

Minus points for not mentioning $5 billion or cookies.

[Obnoxious_One]

41. Is that classic Chewbacca defense deflection.

The only talking points I see are those of the people banging the same tired war drum...

[tralala]

50. It's a shell game...

[Obnoxious_One]

54. It often is.

Our nation will remain divided and the corporatist will continue to get what they want as long as we allow these games to continue.

[sabrina 1]

42. So you support the IMF and World Bank?

[NuclearDem]

56. This could be an invaluable resource for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

[Tommy_Carcetti]

63. For many Ukrainians, the EU/IMF is the classic Door Number 2.

Door Number 1 obviously being close ties with Russia. And there's centuries of history with that one, and most of it is not good for Ukrainians. When you are talking about a country that really isn't keen on your country's own sovereignty and individual identity, any dealings with said country are going to arouse a lot of suspicion and antipathy.

Now, do I know how Ukraine under the EU/IMF will turn out? No. But given past history, Door Number 1 cannot be good for the Ukrainian people. And frankly, my opinion on the EU and IMF are pretty much irrelevant at this point.

[sabrina 1]

64. We do know how it will turn out. It will turn out like all the other Eastern Eu/IMF nations and like

Greece, and Ireland and Portugal and Spain. Those countries have been decimated, robbed of their national assets, 'want to buy a Greek Island' eg.

We know what has happened to every country in the Third World that ended up in debt to the IFM. The 'loans' and interest rates are designed to make it impossible to pay them back, after which the Vultures move in, and snap up their National Energy Cos etc including other national assets, at bargain basement prices, then Privatize them, raise the cost of everything, DESTROY any Social Programs, privatize THEM, let the Wall St. Criminals and their cohorts in each of these countries off the hook, of course, as we did here, make the working class, getting more poor now, pay off their gambling debts, as we did here.

If you would like some 'Before the IMF V After the IMF stats and/or photos, from any country they have raided, let me know.

The very worst thing for the working class is to take a loan from the IMF.

The ONLY country in Europe that was a victim of Wall St's crimes and their corrupt Banks and Govt officials to SURVIVE those crimes, is the ONLY country that refused to be controlled by the IMF. They FIRED AND ARRESTED their Crooked Bankers and Govt officials (thanks to the Whistle Blowers and Wikileaks they were not that hard to find) and replaced them.

And you can bet that the people of Ukraine also know what happens to IMF controlled countries. Worst of all, they loose their sovereignty having outside Corporate entities controlling their Social Programs, meaning they PRIVATIZE them, Cut them etc.

I wouldn't wish the IMF on anyone. Ukraine should follow Iceland's example, so should everyone else, NOT the failed states all over Europe.

I don't ever recall the Left being unaware of the devastation wrought around the Globe by the IMF.

Maybe you should read Naomi Klein's bookd 'Shock Doctrine' to get an idea of what happened to one, once proud Latin American nation as an example of what you are wishing on Ukraine.

Of course the corrupt wealthy class will make out fine, if that's what you mean.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

65. Again, if the only other alternative is Russia, most Ukrainians would simply rather roll the dice.

I don't know if you fully grasp the cultural sensitivity and history behind the whole Ukraine-Russia divide.

[Jesus Malverde]

57. The people of Odessa are outrages at the massacre.

Looks like the Football hooligans and the fascists have fled the city.

[Bosonic]

60. Fighting in Slovyansk today

Fighting in Slovyansk today

https://twitter.com/whitegl/status/463243739662929920

[dipsydoodle]

61. Ukraine crisis: Fears grow over Sloviansk offensive

Fears of an impending offensive by Ukrainian forces are growing in the pro-Russian stronghold of Sloviansk, sources inside the city say.

Ukraine's army cut off the main road into the city on Sunday, squeezing its hold on rebel fighters.

A reporter inside Sloviansk told the BBC that residents expect the city to be stormed.

>

Harriet Salem, a freelance journalist in Sloviansk, said there is strong support for the pro-Russian fighters in the city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27280814

[Bosonic]

62. Rebels 'retreating' in Sloviansk

Rebels 'retreating' in Sloviansk

Pro-Russian militants just outside Sloviansk are retreating amid attacks by Ukrainian troops, reports say.

Government forces have taken a TV tower in the suburbs and rebels were pulling back deeper into the city, the Russian Interfax news agency said.

Almost continuous heavy gunfire could be heard, apparently closer to the centre than in recent days, a Reuters reporter said.

At least two separatist armoured vehicles were seen in retreat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27280814

[Jesus Malverde]

66. Word is they are sending in special forces to odessa before the government of Kiev becomes a

landlocked laughingstock. Seeing the reaction of the odessans to the day after the massacre told me the government of Kiev is losing and fast.

It's hard to hide a massacre in the youtube era.

BTW check out the Central African Republic. That EU project is the latest disaster.