Santa Maria Found? Wreck May Be Columbus' Sunken Flagship

[jakeXT]

Source: NBC News

The leader of an undersea expedition says a pile of wreckage on the bottom of the Caribbean Sea, off the north coast of Haiti, may well mark the spot where Christopher Columbus' flagship, the Santa Maria, sank in 1492.

"All the geographical, underwater topography and archaeological evidence strongly suggests that this wreck is Columbus’ famous flagship, the Santa Maria," team leader Barry Clifford is quoted as saying by The Independent, a British newspaper.

Clifford said the next step would be to work with the Haitian government on a detailed excavation of the wreck.

The claim is based on photographic documentation of the underwater site, plus Clifford's interpretation of previous research that identified the location of La Navidad, the fortified settlement that Columbus established on the coast of present-day Haiti after the Santa Maria ran aground on Christmas Day, 1492. The Independent quoted Clifford as saying that the location of the wreckage site was consistent with descriptions set down in Columbus' diary.

Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/santa-maria-found-wreck-may-be-columbus-sunken-flagship-n103766

[sofa king]

1. Is it submerged beneath 5 centuries of tears?

[Orrex]

6. Too soon.

[pipoman]

3. Most wooden ship wrecks are

Bits and pieces. Any remaining wood will have to be dehydrated very carefully.

[TorchTheWitch]

4. follow the links, read the story

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/exclusive-found-after-500-years-the-wreck-of-christopher-columbuss-flagship-the-santa-maria-9359330.html

[BumRushDaShow]

11. Yet the story quotes the Team lead reinforcing

the bullshit -

"I am confident that a full expedition of the wreck will yield the first ever detailed marine archeological evidence of Columbus' discovery of America".

After 522 years, can't they finally get it right about what this raider actually "discovered"? (hint: it wasn't "America&quot .

Some of the comments at the bottom are hilarious.

[RedstDem]

12. you do realize the whole western half of our planet

is called America, right?

[BumRushDaShow]

19. LOL

[TorchTheWitch]

13. how could you have missed the part where they knew it was Haiti?

And I'm quite certain they also knew that it wasn't America. What the hell does that have to do with find the ship? Nothing.

Yeah, he did "discover" America despite other people having been there before and not interested in it which Europe did know about at that time. It was on this third voyage that he finally found the mainland.

For all intents and purposes he did discover the American continent having been the only European having done so though it wasn't in 1492. What else would you have expected these people to say other than yes, he found the Americas? Give a long dissertation on the meaning of "discover"? Or who it was that got there first but weren't interested in it and didn't let the European world know it was there?

Once again, what the fuck does this have to do with the discovery of the wreckage? It was found and is likely the remains of the Santa Maria.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus/25449/The-second-and-third-voyages

[BumRushDaShow]

20. Umm. Did you miss that the quote was from the archeologist

and not the clueless navigator from 522 years ago?

[TorchTheWitch]

21. well, DUH

And I addressed that. Columbus did indeed discover the American continent as far as any cared. So the hell what that other people found it first when they didn't give a rat's butt about it and left? Did they themselves believe that they discovered anything new or not or always thought it was there? What about the natives already there? Surely they discovered it first at some time in the distant past but being a primitive people thought that it was the only land there was.

Again, what did you expect that the archaeologist would say when for all intents and purposes Columbus did discover this previously unknown continent in the civilized world on his third expedition? Once again, it all comes down to the definition of "discover" and for what was being discussed of course he would say that Columbus discovered the American continent because he basically DID since the entire civilized world didn't know about it. Really, what was being discussed was the possible find of one of Columbus's ships from his first expedition, go ahead and tell me what you think he should have said.

Have you even learned anything about him? That he was not a "clueless navigator" but the best of his times having discovered navigation methods that were unknown at the time?

Here, once again I'll help you out with that...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus

Who do you think discovered the continent and did they know it was a continent? The Norwegian, Leif Eriksson who had landed there? Oops, no, he heard about it from Bjarni Herjolfsson. Did Herjolfsson know it was a continent and previously unknown throughout Europe? Did anyone else discover it before Herjolfsson, and did they know it was a continent and unknown throughout Europe? Well, we have no idea. If you're going to be so completely accurate you'd have to go back to how the natives first discovered it, and nobody knows that. Hell, even Herjolfsson's and Eriksson's discoveries were only related in songs, and how completely accurate are they?

Now, again, what the hell has what he said have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not this ocean find is the previously undiscovered resting place of the Santa Maria? Yep, not a fucking thing.

[okaawhatever]

25. +100 nt

[jberryhill]

27. Actually, it says "Columbus' discovery of America"

Some people read the word "first" into "discover" when it isn't actually there.

Today, for example, my wife discovered where my wallet is.

Did you know, for example, when and where cocaine was discovered?

Why, the answer is in New York v. Belton, 453 U.S. 454:

On April 9, 1978, Trooper Douglas Nicot, a New York State policeman driving an unmarked car on the New York Thruway, was passed by another automobile traveling at an excessive rate of speed. Nicot gave chase, overtook the speeding vehicle, and ordered its driver to pull it over to the side of the road and stop. There were four men in the car, one of whom was Roger Belton, the respondent in this case. [...] After giving the arrestees the warnings required by Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 86 S.Ct. 1602, 16 L.Ed.2d 694, the state policeman searched each one of them. He then searched the passenger compartment of the car. On the back seat he found a black leather jacket belonging to Belton. He unzipped one of the pockets of the jacket and discovered cocaine.

So there you are. Cocaine was discovered by Trooper Nicot on the side of the New York Thruway in April 1978.

Betcha never knew that!

[BumRushDaShow]

28. The problem that you and others miss

is the mis-education of millions with the skewed myths of Eurocentric historians and I'm afraid that mis-education is rampant in your postings.

And yes, Columbus, like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, are finally falling by the wayside where they belong.

Citing the Encyclopedia Britannica is certainly hilarious. Here, I'll help you with freeing your mind.

[trusty elf]

5. What happened to El Niño and the Piñata?

Dumb jokes aside, that's cool. I love underwater archaeology.

[TorchTheWitch]

14. took them back to Spain

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/127070/Christopher-Columbus

[mikekohr]

35. Loaded with 25 Tanio People, of whom he sold the 8 survivors into slavery

He sold another 4-5,000 into slavery before he discovered Hell.

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#Christopher Columbus

-clip- When Columbus left Hispaniola he rewarded the Taino people by kidnaping 25 of them, and selling the handful of survivors into slavery.

"In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves and brazil wood which could be sold."
-Christopher Columbus, 1496, in a letter to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella -

On Columbus's second voyage, he returned with 17 heavily armed ships 1500 men, cannon, guns, crossbows, and attack dogs. All of which he used to fulfill his wishes of conquest of these "Children of God." After his attempts of conquest and enslavement were met with resistance his descriptions of these people became less complementary. -end of clip-

[TorchTheWitch]

36. yep

What's your point? During that time there was nothing wrong with that. Where did I say anything at all about him being saintly or a hero or anything in the same universe as could be construed as that? That's right, no where. He was a product of his time just as we are out ours. Since when is anyone in history that did things we balk at today have shit to do with anything about their existence and contribution to history?

AGAIN, what does any of this shit you keep bringing up have anything to do with the possible discovery of the Santa Maria? And once again - NOT. A. FUCKING. THING.


Funny, I don't recall you derailing discussions about the possible discovery of the remains of Richard III (that did turn out to be his remains) going on silly rants about what an awful person he was, that he was an idiot and contributed nothing at all to history. What on earth would that have to do with the possibility of discovering his remains? Yep, NOT. A. FUCKING. THING.

[mikekohr]

37. You Are Wrong. Columbus' character and legacy was not a result of his times

It was the result of choices he made. Many were horrified by Columbus' thievery, murder, enslavement, terrorism and pedophila enablement.

Likewise is is not our times that cause you to use vulgar language, and poor manners. Although some hide behind the skirttails of the internet, pound their chest and drag their knuckles, most of us don't.

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/forgottenheroes.html

BARTOLOME' DE LAS CASAS:

"God created these simple people without evil and without guile. They are most obedient and faithful to their natural lords and to the Christians whom they serve. Nor are they quarrelsome, rancorous, querulous, or vengeful.... They neither possess nor desire to possess worldly wealth. Surely these people would be the most blessed in the world...." 64).

A Spanish adventurer, de las Casas became a plantation owner under the economedia system introduced by Columbus. Disgusted and horrified by the brutality of his countrymen, de las Casas freed his slaves, and immersed himself in the priesthood. Through his unflagging efforts, Spain passed laws that outlawed the enslavement of Native Americans. Although these laws were routinely ignored and ineffective, they stand in stark contrast to the actions of Columbus
. Bartolome' de las Casas, as a contemporary of Columbus, perhaps is best qualified to remark on the legacy of "The Olde Navigator,". His observation of Columbus and his legacy is as follows: "How much damage, how many calamities, disruptions and devastations of kingdoms have there been? How many souls have perished in the West Indies over the years and how unjustly? How many unforgivable sins have been committed? ...... What we committed in the West Indies stands out among the most unpardonable offenses ever committed against God and mankind...." 1). Where Columbus saw opportunity and riches to be plundered, de las Casas recognized the humanity and dignity of the Taino People. Where Columbus lusted after gold, power, and privilege, Bartolome' de las Casas fought for the downtrodden and the oppressed.

[Arugula Latte]

15. El Niño was swept away on a strong ocean current, and the Piñata was battered

until she gave up the contents of her hold, which consisted primarily of Dum Dums, Smarties, and assorted individually wrapped hard candies.

[okaawhatever]

26. Lolz. Good one. nt

[Major Nikon]

7. Santa Maria!

[Sunlei]

8. so cool! I love shipwrecks. a lot of stuff like pottery, some metals will survive.

Wonder what they would have had as cargo on those ships at that time frame. Their holds would have been full of cargo for trade. perhaps slaves? as Haiti was a slave island at that time? Wonder what they would have taken from the east coast of the USA and used for trade with Haiti. Could they have taken Native Americans and moved them to Haiti as 'workers'? Even the Vikings took our Native Americans back to Iceland as DNA tests on Icelandic citizens has proven.

I have little ceramic dishes(was the main cargo) from 16th century ship wreck off the coast of Vietnam & they are in very good condition. They were very inexpensive because the entire cargo was ceramic items.

[dembotoz]

9. fox is in denial--the earth remains flat

don't fall off the edge.....

[jwirr]

10. You mean they found that sail boat that bundy is talking about in his history lesson?

[PeoViejo]

16. Anything referring to Columbus should be erased from History

The man was a Monster and a Fraud. The whole narrative is nothing but propaganda.

I guess the locals didn't care much for their new neighbors. Too bad they didn't get Columbus too.

[PeoViejo]

17. Columbus and the search for the Basque Fishing Grounds.

http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com/2005/03/kurlansky-codthe-fish-that-changed.html

[IronGate]

18. History should never be erased.

Even Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc. were important historical figures, no matter how horrendous their crimes against humanity were.
Erase the history of these monsters and you erase their crimes, maybe setting up a repeat for another generation.

[Uncle Joe]

23. I couldn't agree more.

Last edited Tue May 13, 2014, 06:16 PM - Edit history (1)

To eliminate history whether it be good, bad or ugly is to eliminate humanity's perspective.

[PeoViejo]

38. Keeping a false History is an even worse Crime

IMHO

[Uncle Joe]

39. I agree with that as well and history is being constantly revised as new information

and perspectives emerge.

History is not static.

[Kaleva]

22. Any survivors?

[undeterred]

24. Sexually transmitted diseases...

[jberryhill]

29. No, but the families can finally reach "closure"

CNN is interviewing them now.

[Kaleva]

33. Lol!

[kwassa]

34. Here are some of the survivors ...

[HooptieWagon]

30. Id be surprised if anything is left....

other than a pile of ballast stones. IIRC, the crew stripped the ship of everything useful, which probably included spars, sails, timbers from the hull, cannons, and any bits of metal they could salvage. Any remaining wood disappeared long ago, and any metal was reduced to iron oxide by the salt water. Stones, used for ballast, is probably all that remains. And that has either been dispersed, or buried, by 500+ years of hurricanes. I would be pleased if this discovery is the Santa Maria, but I doubt thats the case, and there's likely no way to prove the case one way or another.

[genwah]

31. Yep. And really, who cares? What can be learned from this "discovery" that we

don't know from extant records? It's not like CNN has been looking for the last bazillion years.

[HooptieWagon]

32. Yea... its probably just a pile of stones.

Probably very little information can be learned thats not already known. And theres probably no way of positively identifying the wreck... ships have been wrecking all over the Carribbean and Straits of Florida for 500 years. In the case of the Galleons, like the Atocha, the wreck is identified by the recovered treasure, which was carefully recorded when loaded aboard. But the Santa Maria wasn't carrying treasure that could give a positive ID. The wood and metal bits are long gone... all thats left is a pile of ballast stones, Im sure.

[Wolf Frankula]

40. Ever See the Columbus Movie with Tom Selleck?

I saw it with a whole theater of SCA folk riffing on it.

Columbus looks puzzled. Scandinavian shout of "There goes Chris, lost again!"

Columbus puts a hand on his hip. Scandinavian shout of "Use bot' hands, Chris. You'll find your butt dot vay!"

Crew looks unhappy. Crowd. "Rumble, rumble rumble. Mutiny Mutiny! Rumble rumble rumble. Stop that rumbling in there you men!"

Ships are at sea in endless vista of water. Basque accented man, "I told him to sail nort'-nort'uest until the sea gets cold. Then turn west. But did he listen? Nooo!"

Sight of land. Cry of "DON HO! What? We've discovered Hawaii."

Meeting with natives on beach. "Velcome to Vinland." Then "We discovered you. How? You were down here on the beach. We came down here and discovered you. It's all how you look at it."

Of Columbus. "You suppose he might be interested in buying Manhattan Island?"

Columbus plants a flag. Scandinavian shout of "It's got a name. It's called Vinland!"

Wolf