UPDATED: Clinton: It 'Had To Be' Ukraine Separatists Who Shot Down The Plane
Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: TPM
By DYLAN SCOTT Published JULY 17, 2014, 6:45 PM EDT
In a Thursday interview with PBS News's Charlie Rose, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that if Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down, it was likely by pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine using equipment that came from Russia.
The questions Id be asking is who could have shot it down, who had the equipment -- its obviously an anti-aircraft missile. Who had the expertise to do that? Clinton said. "There does seem to be growing awareness that it probably had to be Russian insurgents."
She cautioned, however, that the investigation was still ongoing and final determinations had not yet been made. But if rebels were responsible, Clinton added, their equipment likely came from neighboring Russia.
If there is evidence pointing in that direction, the equipment had to come from Russia. What more the Russians might or might not have done, we don't know, she said. There is a great deal of concern that, not only was a civilian plane shot down, but what this means about the continuing conflict in Eastern Ukraine and the role that Russia is playing.
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Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hillary-clinton-ukraine-plane-russian-rebels
UPDATE:
At the time I posted this article, the TPM headline appearing over it was; "Clinton: Plane 'Probably Had To Be' Shot Down By Rebels In Ukraine." It was brought to my attention TPM changed their headline to what it now is, "Clinton: It 'Had To Be' Ukraine Separatists Who Shot Down The Plane." I've now brought the headline of this OP in line with the TPM change.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)Why must our political leaders speculate and then in the very next sentence state that we must be careful not to speculate?
tularetom
(23,664 posts)My guess is that somebody shoved a microphone in her face and she had to say something that sounded profound and insightful.
What she said was just generic political bullshit but at least she didn't get all belligerent and threaten to start WWIII like McCain did.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)But instead we get this BS.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The idea is to demonstrate a command of the issues while leaving fallback room.
What she did is par for the course, but it only gets Extra Special Scrutiny when it is a woman, and even more to the point, That Clinton Woman, saying it.
If the same words came out of any other public figure's mouth, no one would bat an eye.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Although I should just eliminate the cable. All these channels and I only watch like 10 of them. LOL
MADem
(135,425 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)She is the front runner for the presidency in 2016. We want to know how she thinks. Of course she thinks it's the big bad Russians, the next war.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Henry Kissinger said the same exact words. When it comes to Clinton, though, the knives are out.
And gee, I guess she may well have been speaking as a consequence of the courtesy briefings that former POTUS's/SECSTATES/SECDEFS and other key cabinet officials get when the shit hits the fan somewhere.
But hey, it's just so easy to take digs at "that woman." I see it here incessantly.
I point it out when I see it.
If you don't like that, too bad.
Jetliner Explodes Over Ukraine; Struck by Missile, Officials Say
GRABOVO, Ukraine A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 with 298 people aboard exploded, crashed and burned on a flowered wheat field Thursday in a part of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russia separatists, blown out of the sky at 33,000 feet by what Ukrainian and American officials described as a Russian-made antiaircraft missile.
Ukraine accused the separatists of carrying out what it called a terrorist attack. American intelligence and military officials said the plane had been destroyed by a Russian SA-series missile, based on surveillance satellite data that showed the final trajectory and impact of the missile but not its point of origin.
There were strong indications that those responsible may have errantly downed what they had thought was a military aircraft only to discover, to their shock, that they had struck a civilian airliner. Everyone aboard was killed, their corpses littered among wreckage that smoldered late into the summer night....Adding to Ukrainian and Western suspicions that pro-Russia separatists were culpable, Ukraines intelligence agency, the State Security Service, known as the S.B.U., released audio from what it said were intercepted phone calls between separatist rebels and Russian military intelligence officers on Thursday. In the audio, the separatists appeared to acknowledge shooting down a civilian plane.
The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry sent reporters a link to the edited audio of the calls, with English subtitles, posted on YouTube by the S.B.U.
According to a translation of the Russian audio by the English-language Kyiv Post, the recording begins with a separatist commander, identified as Igor Bezler, telling a Russian military intelligence official, We have just shot down a plane.....
karynnj
(59,503 posts)genuinely is not gaffe prone. The same with Biden. Yes, I know both are white males, but I suspect the discriminant for extra scrutiny is being a Democrat - not being a woman. It might be that we all notice and react more to criticism in proportion to how much we respect or admire the person.
Here it really is likely best to speak as Obama did without speculating on blame. Just the defensiveness in Putin's comments - blaming it on things Ukraine did to lead to the people becoming separatists - ignoring his own role - suggests that they did it. Not to mention, they HAVE been shooting down Ukrainian planes.
On this, I don't have a problem with what she said - she led with words like "probably" and made it clear that she was relying on what people were increasing speculating, not any classified information.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's obvious.
And it turns out her comments were ... accurate.
The NERVE of her. It's insane the way a very few people jump on her constantly.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)I suspect the truth might be that BOTH are brutally hit and things they say purposely interpreted in the worst way. Not to mention, I realize that Kerry's accomplishments have been used (by the right) to diminish Hillary's as SoS - even though, obviously, they are complimentary and both Obama foreign policy. I have also seen the right and even Senator McCain bash Kerry for thinks not working in Israel, Syria and Ukraine -- blaming him and Obama for the troubles in all three. There have been any number of articles that blamed him for the violence in Israel because the peace talks failed - even though the same tensions that caused the current violence have been there for decades. Had he done nothing, any "spark" would have lit the same fire.
I suspect that part of what you see is that there is far more written on Clinton, who is very likely the Democratic nominee and future President than about Kerry, the current Secretary of Sate and likely senior statesman enjoying a well deserved retirement.
On the right, the bashing of Kerry has been ongoing since the 1970s. Their caricature of him is every bit as distorted their distortions of the Clinton's. It is hard to even reconcile the very serious, thoughtful, intelligent, dignified man I have met with their image. It is as off as their bizarre images of each Clinton.
Although presumptuous to say so - as I don't know you, I think I know something about what you feel when Hillary is unfairly attacked - as here. I was in the JK group and very aligned with Kerry in 2006 when it seemed the entire force of the echo chamber blasted him like a tsunami of hate and outrage when he skipped a two letter word in a joke written for him. That experience made me realize just how brutal running for President is for any Democrat (and it is not that mush easier for the Republican) and what a sacrifice it is for anyone to run. This is even more true for Clinton, who is clearly facing this choice knowing from the 1990s and 2008 exactly how bad it really is.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He's actually very relaxed and normal. I contributed to his Presidential run, and did a little GOTV as well.
He also was my junior Senator for many years, and my senior Senator for what seemed like a wink of the eye.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)That's a load of crap. Liberals would. This situation is bad enough without trying to give H. Clinton a free pass because she is a female. She is accountable for what she says as anyone else.
Looks to me like the Neocons are looking for their next war.
MADem
(135,425 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Stupid is stupid.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)mind the "acting like hitler" comment she made in reference to what putin was doing. But, then I'm not a putin fan and there was an historical similarity. But, I guess bringing up "hitler" even if it's true is verboten
MADem
(135,425 posts)you noted is there, and people trying to ignore it or pretend it isn't there are whistling in the dark. We haven't seen land-grabbing on a massive scale in that region since a certain mustachioed asswipe went looking for "living room." No one is saying that he's the whole "Hitler" package, but they are saying that he's doing the same thing when it comes to acquiring territory that a certain hyperbolic Austrian did. It's really not a "Godwin" reference in that context!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/22/us-ukraine-crisis-lithuania-idUSKBN0EX0KY20140622
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698917/It-time-stop-appeasing-Putin-resolve-Cameron-Hammond-warns-EU-veiled-dig-Merkel.html
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/18/it-s-finally-time-for-the-west-to-stand-up-to-putin.html
Cha
(297,240 posts)what hitler did and what putin is doing, MADem.
There are enough people around here trying to cover putin's ass and show how bad the USA is.. that bringing hitler into the putin equation is shocking their sensibilities.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It is what he's doing...it doesn't mean he's going to follow the same script down the line, but what he is doing is a crime and I'm glad that world leaders aren't Chamberlaining it. He has time to reverse course and that is what he needs to do.
Cha
(297,240 posts)on Gays, Journalists, and the internet in Russia.. He makes it a living hell for them.. but, not saying he's like hitler there.. just his own kind of bigoted dictator monster.
LuvLoogie
(7,003 posts)But she is not in the government. Guarded speculation is appropriate. EVERYBODY is asking the question--"Who shot down the plane? and with what?"
If she said no comment, I would bet a "Hillary Clinton for President" bumper sticker on your car that you would say she copped out.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)QuestForSense
(653 posts)Diplomacy never was her strong suit.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)Is over the top. She was reasonable.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)And your body must be in a pretzel right now in your attempt to twist her statement so you can rant and rave and ring hands over the latest Clinton outrage.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)I for one don't believe in treating our public servants like royalty.
As for your incredible extrapolation of my views (and posture!) based on a single sentence, I congratulate you for your extraordinary perception. You jump to conclusions almost as impressively as the former Secretary of State.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)Delusional arrogance and overblown hyperbolic responses. As if you would know more than the former Secretary of State.
Lol. You make me laugh.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)These people who diss her have this idea that she doesn't continue to get briefings on this shit as a former cabinet official. Henry Kissinger, in his hospital bed recovering from heart surgery, and Condi Rice have been briefed as well.
Hell, GWBush, his daddy, Clinton and Carter get briefings too. So did all the former SECDEFs. This is a big deal. It's key that these people know what the USG knows, or at least the broad brush strokes.
When you see uninformed carping, you just have to consider the source.
Evergreen Emerald
(13,069 posts)They are trying too hard. To use an overused phrase: these Hillary Haters have jumped the shark.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)That almost guarantees saber-rattling. I have never been sure how much of it was really her, and how much was the military-industrial complex talking.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Cosmocat
(14,564 posts)She is correct, too.
Hill is OK, I don't love her, but as far as pols go she is alright.
We say we want a straight answer from pols, then castigate them when they give them.
It was likely equipment provided by Russia, but we have to let the investigation show one way or another.
No reason to dance around what everyone knows is likely.
older yet still potent soviet military equipment has proliferated significantly in the past twenty years or so. i believe this accident, as it most likely was and we will never truly discover for sure, will turn into a web of manipulation towards ends desired, or ends given the appearance of being desired by the powers that be.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)This is true. Think of the ubiquity of the AK-47, for starters.
Igel
(35,309 posts)they're also using newer model AKs with grenade launchers that the Ukr soldiers say they never had. (Until they collected some from dead rebels and rebel arms caches, that is.)
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)No wonder the things circulate all over the place.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And when they get through with manipulation then eve us liberals will be for going in to the Ukraine with money, guns, and maybe even people...face it, even liberals hate Putin now, so ir they can make it stick in our minds that Putin is the evil monster they say he is, why not?
if that is what the PTB want.
Who knows, this might be the Arch Duke Ferdinand of WW3...a crime can be turned into a war.
rickyhall
(4,889 posts)Igel
(35,309 posts)And some older Soviet equipment was in Ukraine.
However, the rebels started off with much less, and in spite of not taking over much new territory in the last couple of months have vaslty increased their stores of old Soviet weapons.
And some post-Soviet weaponry that wasn't in Ukraine depots.
The difficulty is that the territory is landlocked. Even when they had access to a shipping port, it was less than complete and the roads to Donets'k and Luhansk weren't reliably controlled. The border crossings with Russia, however, are fairly reliably under their control. But it would require that dozens of tanks and more APCs, dozens of Grads, a Buk or two, and a lot of munitions and men cross through a border crossing and not have the border guards notice, that the columns of armored vehicles that move south to Russian Donetsk and north from Rostov go unnoticed by the police or the military (even if civilians record their presence).
It boils down to the Russian government knows and is providing the stuff (for free or for payment by others, it makes no difference) or the Russian government lacks control over its ports and military bases sufficient to let 100 pieces of armored tech and dozens of pieces of artillery--with the shells required for their use--walk off and through Russian towns and villages. If the Russian government knows then either Putin knows and is lying with the aplomb of a sociopath or something on this scale is taking place without his awareness and he is a foolish idiot.
I don't know which of these options makes me feel better, to be perfectly honest.
MADem
(135,425 posts)was that they hit the wrong damn plane.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/malaysian-airlines-plane-ukraine.html
LuvLoogie
(7,003 posts)at an airplane, push the button, then rush to the wreckage to deny access to investigators while firing warning shots to get away?
MADem
(135,425 posts)"Wreckage? What wreckage? Oh....you mean that pile of burning metal over there? Oh goodness!!! WHO could have done THAT? I'm shocked, I tell you....shocked!!!!"
Intense for the irony impaired!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Metric System
(6,048 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...should shut its facehole when talking about where guns and other killing shit comes from!!!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)within reach of these animals?
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I've got to try to remember that even some Democrats supported the Iraq Wars.
I'd like a new direction, please.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Rufus T. Firefly: Now that you're Secretary of War, what kind of an army do you think we ought to have?
Chicolini: Well, I tell you what I think, I think we should have a standing army.
Rufus T. Firefly: Why should we have a standing army?
Chicolini: Because then we save money on chairs.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine many people will infer her statements to mean nothing else.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Not 3am phone call material, IMO.
gussmith
(280 posts)Do you mean "HAD to Have Been"? Did Clinton really say such an insipid thing or is the headline there to incite?
CRH
(1,553 posts)imthevicar
(811 posts)Another War. I can hear the drums beating, and the Devil Laughing!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)imthevicar
(811 posts)How Adorable!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a false flag attack? Or were you serious, in which case please tell us where you got such an odd idea, since that is exactly the type of claim one would expect from an Alex Jones fan.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)One of my "false flag" speculations was hidden by a gang - I mean jury - of Putin-phobics.
We cannot speak our mind here - even a polite speculation -- this forum is controlled by people who want to silence everyone who has an opposing point of view by using the alert system.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Supportive of Clinton while she is calling the rebels out. The conflict must be enormous.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)She is being smart. Throwing red meat for russia/putin haters while hedging by saying she will wait for the investigation.
I like her overall... I am not a single issue voter.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Warpy
(111,261 posts)since the US is not likely to be giving SAMs to pro Russian separatists and I doubt China is, either.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)because if it turns down the people you and your fellow war hawks were the ones that shot it down, you will look dumb. No you won't, because many of the people you wanted to help get rid of Assad turned around and joined ISIS.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)IDK WTF is wrong with people like you who jump at the chance to blame Hillary Rodham Clinton for anything and everything that goes on in the world...
As for calling her a war hawk, please stop using her Iraq war vote to conclude she is a war monger and loves wars and if she had it her way she would start a war just for the hell of it.
Alot of Democrats voted the same way she did, and that is because she and the entire world were lied to about Iraq's imminent threat of a nuclear war if the country did not act...
At the very least, if you are truly a Democrat, despite your opinion of her votes in the US Senate, and despite your opinion of her accomplishments as Secretary of State, the very least you can do if you truly are a Democrat, is respect the fact that she served our country as a United States Senator, and more importantly, when the President of the United States asked her to serve as Secretary of State, despite her lack of desire for the position, she stepped up during one of the most tumultuous times around the world, visiting over 112 countries and showing the world that America is ready to lead again.
I respect your right to let your opinion be known, as I hope you respect my opinion, even if we disagree...I am 24 years old, Ive been on DU since I was 14 years old, and in my 10 years on this site, I have NEVER experienced the level of negativity & disrespect for Democrats in my 10 years on this site.
When I joined DU, the administrators' had a very strict policy condemning the name calling & the lack of respect for any Democrat on this board. It wasn't to say you must support all Democrats or your not welcome on this website, but back then we could openly & freely disagree with a Democrat or a Democratic Candidate, however when I joined this site, we could disagree with each other without being disagreeable, because when all is said and done, at the end of the day, at the end of the primaries, at the end of battles won and lost by our candidate of choice, we all came together as Democrats....& I sincerely miss those days...
I would like to point out that my post was initially directed at you, but just like me your entitled to your opinion, so this post is for anyone & everyone who remembers and wants to regain civility & party unity to this website...
PEACE OUT
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)my comments were NOT in an way that HRC shot down a plane, but that she jumped the gun in sayiugn separatists had done that, when there is a chorus of people that would use that for nothing less then WAR WITH RUSSIA.
as far as a war hawk, you tube where she says "assad must go" despite the fact that if he dpoes go, we have a very real chance of isis running Iraq and Syria, Isis aka those goes guy that kicked out of Al Q because they kill too many civilians.
dflprincess
(28,078 posts)except it wasn't.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)That's the best course of action is it not?
All the knee jerk responses here are disappointing.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Had she said 'no comment', or something similar, people would have attacked her for THAT, too.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)She's literally calling for an independent, self sufficient energy road-map, which the US is on going to 2050...
melm00se
(4,992 posts)and her 1st comment was "it looks like Hillary is slouching the chair and those bags under her eyes make her look so tired".
Both of these distracted from the messages she was trying to communicate.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Not wanting to fight. We'll see.
I think she's taking a breather.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)that the Russian Ministry has traced the radar signature of the missile[s] and the origin was a unit supplied to Ukraine itself and which remains in its possession. Doubtless when called upon to do so the claim will be authenticated - or not so.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)They have no credibility.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)echochamberlain
(56 posts)How long until someone from the right take a still image from the Charlie Rose interview, and add a speech bubble with "what difference does it make?"
echochamberlain
(56 posts)According to Wasserman Schultz, 'we're not prepared to connect those dots just yet' in reference to Russian fingerprints on the airliner tragedy.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)"She cautioned, however, that the investigation was still ongoing and final determinations had not yet been made.
She, at least, is keeping an open mind until the investigation produces some results.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)Only change Iran to where you want.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts).
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Then again, that's par for the course. Whether some of you like it or not, she was SOS for 4 years and knows the parties involved in this conflict.
Furthermore, her assessment was correct.
The questions Id be asking is who could have shot it down, who had the equipment -- its obviously an anti-aircraft missile. Who had the expertise to do that? Clinton said. "There does seem to be growing awareness that it probably had to be Russian insurgents."
LuvLoogie
(7,003 posts)and know more.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)what should Reagan have done differently after Russia shot down that Korean airliner?
Euphoria
(448 posts)Why is it ok for Republicans to do basically ANYTHING ranging from wrong to nothing and get away with it and yet Dems have to do everything exactly correctly and still get slammed for it?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)That was early on Bush's watch, and he did exactly nothing about it.
Which wasn't necessarily wrong, but shows that our government chooses which outrages to respond to.
polynomial
(750 posts)IED-Bombers, guerrilla, incendiary, rebel, revolutionary, thug, etc. Dont you get weary, or exhausted in these expressions, it fatigues me.
Hind sight for Americans is to be incredibly blind, or news people encourage Americans to forget our problems and act with; the us and them attitude of arrogance wedged by the psychotic media that will dance all over the world doing in depth analysis but ignore everyday murders that can tally a thousand or more victims a month right here in America.
America has tens of thousands of wounded and killed veterans from Vietnam through Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Millions more displaced as refugees, billions of dollars in lost money in bribes financing terrorist around the world. Worse America keeps secret the Arab/ Bush oil money connection that simplifies to basic treason before and after 911.
My way to look at this issue; it is civil war there, another conflict that needs to be truthfully told.
But our own time spent in war needs a free honest debate to resolve the American Iraq war crimes in profiteering, civilian bloody slaughter, injury, news media scandal, or what really bugs me is our own America may still have private armies, The Cheney shadow army, Black-water fighting all over the world for political capital kept secret.