Russia firing artillery on Ukraine troops: US
Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 03:35 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: AFP
Washington (AFP) - The United States on Thursday said it had evidence Russian forces were firing artillery from inside Russia on Ukrainian troops, in what officials called a "clear escalation" of the conflict.
Moscow is also planning to "deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers" to the pro-Russian separatist forces in Ukraine, US deputy State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said.
The evidence was based on "intelligence information" indicating arms were "continuing to flow across the border" into Ukraine since the shooting down of a Malaysian airliner with 298 on board, Harf said.
But she refused to reveal the evidence behind the allegation or give further information.
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/evidence-moscow-firing-russia-ukraine-troops-us-181508795.html;_ylt=AwrBJR6UTtFTgHwAHiTQtDMD
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)That should not be made without virtually irrefutable evidence, preferably evidence that could be made public.
If true, it's an explicit act of war requiring the strongest possible non- violent response.
Uncle Joe
(58,361 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)of annexation of the Ukraine, and he knows darn well that neither we or the Europeans will go to war over it.
He's got the oligarchs pissing in his ear, but he hates them anyway.
A crazy man always has the advantage over a same man when playing chicken.
candelista
(1,986 posts)He has a deal with President Obama to annex Crimea in return for handing the rest of Ukraine to Western powers. That much is obvious.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)
Cha
(297,221 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)And I wasn't "spouting." 
It's called "diplomacy," and thank God President Obama and Putin handled it right this time. Just as they did on Syria.
7962
(11,841 posts)I'm pretty sure the President would distance himself from whats happening right now. And sending blankets and hot pockets to the Ukrainians isnt going to be much help.
candelista
(1,986 posts)One time for more than an hour. What do you think they talked about? The weather?
7962
(11,841 posts)It sure looks like Obama's phone calls have done nothing. Now we have artillery firing coming from Russia into the Ukraine. But its not all up to Obama either; the EU HAS to ramp up their actions against Putin. Thats where most of his money comes from. But they've been scared to do much up to this point. Maybe the airliner being shot down, and the remains being looted, bodies held, etc, will have an impact on them.
For the most part, all Russia has is income from gas and oil. If the world can hurt the purse of Putin and more importantly his rich buddies, he MAY ease up. I still have my doubts. I dont think he will stop doing what he's doing now, until he achieves what ever he wants. The Ukrainians are all that stands in his way. Our sanctions to date have been meaningless and the EU has done less.
candelista
(1,986 posts)Obama traded Crimea for the rest of Ukraine. That's why there is no nuclear saber rattling going on. I said in my first post on this topic that both Putin and Obama were "dumb" not to worry about eastern Ukraine.
7962
(11,841 posts)E: Its obvious Putin is still "assisting" the rebels. I wouldnt be surprised to find out Russian troops are also actively fighting in E Ukraine. They may have even manned those missile batteries that shot down the plane.
He's not done, and making any deals with Putin and thinking you can trust him is a big mistake.
candelista
(1,986 posts)But then, "obvious" is a relative term.
7962
(11,841 posts)Cha
(297,221 posts)Hypocrisy is blaring.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)War is evil and crazy. Putin should stop. But look at the example WE have set. We told the world it's ok to go to war solely to pursue your national interests. We all forget Iraq and Afghanistan? How about all the fighting we've done in Central America in the 80s? How about how hard we tried in Syria? How about the Right pushing for an Iran war? I find it numerous that people here excuse our own wars. EVERYONE should be anti-war all the time. Stop excusing ourselves and maybe we would have a better effect influencing others to stop. We love war here. Look at the Drug War. We kill at least a couple thousand every year I believe.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)Once for over an hour. It's a matter of public record. I don't think they were talking about their golf games.
barbtries
(28,794 posts)is this how they prime the people for another war? i don't know but i do know that i have no stomach for another fucking WAR.
why can't the leaders in this world work toward peace.
eta: now i've read through the thread i see i am far from alone in my skepticism.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I doubt he is allowing this out to beat the war drums. If I had to guess, I would say they are pretty damn sure.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)
Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)or are you just rejecting them without considering that they may be true?
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)suing Malaysia Airlines and with investigation, discoveries and litigation, majority of what actually happened will slowly come out. Remember Lockerbie, Pam 103 where they turned the lawsuit against the Libyan government? Lets see where the class action lawsuit leads them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)does that mean it's true?
candelista
(1,986 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Artillery has a short range... just a few miles, at most. I doubt artillery located within Russia's border is within range of Ukrainian forces.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Field artillery is much smaller. Just a guess, but the range is probably well short of 10 miles. Ill do a little research, and come back.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Some US equipment, since it's easier to find stats on it. Russia has roughly equivalent hardware.
"Regular" artillery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109A6
Range: 19 miles
Artillery Rockets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIMARS
Range: 186 miles.
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)This isn't the 1950's.
There are Ukrainian forces right at the border, being shelled from both sides. Its no news in Ukraine, its been happening for weeks now. Before it was regular artillery, now they are being hit by multiple rocket launchers (Grads, Smerch, and Torando) with impunity. These weapons have a range of 30-100 miles.
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And thats the result
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Many Russian soldiers bragging about this on Twitter. Ukrainians cannot shoot back, for fear of damaging Russian border towns. Sad reality of war. They are taking the cities but losing the border, and that means uninterrupted flow for weapons from Russia.
candelista
(1,986 posts)cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)If I had to bet then the main culprit (assuming its actually happening) is probably the 9A52-4 Tornado.
Igel
(35,309 posts)Recently there was a vKontakte page that vanished when noticed. The guy claimed to be positioned with his unit near the border and "hitting the Ukrainains" hard.
There were three vids of Grad fire, all with geotags and time-stamps. (After one was noticed, they searched for any others; the ones I watched had the videographers talking as the guy said what it was--a Grad. "Eto ponyatoe delo," to shut up his wife who doubted his manly experience with such weapons. Somebody was kind enough to do the footwork for the Ukr government: The geotags allowed the locations of the three vids to be sited, and they were consistent with one spot near Platonovo, a little berg near the border. The time and weather and sun position matched the time stamp. The direction of fire lined up with a border post. They were posted after the Ukr forces reported an attack from that direction.
Today a Russian soldier allegedly defected. UNN claims that he admitted certain things. We'll see if he's trustworthy and if the interrogation methods match Western norms.
In fact, the first report was fairly obvious. The Ukr claimed they were assaulted by fire from Russia. The Russians turned around and said that the army was lost and opened fire on the Ukr border guards after crossing a mile or two into Ukr territory. No word on why they weren't stopped or where the Ukr army folk went--or why the assault group was trucking a Grad around with them.
Lots of bodies. The claims come in fairly consistently.
You probably saw the Grad video. What you saw was a trail with corn freshly beaten down by something. And a patch with scorched earth. And past that, burned corn. Something blasted a lot of heat out behind it at the border after crossing it. Not a lot of things that do that. Could they have faked it? Sure. It's possible. They could have trucked their own equipment over into Russian territory, then fired a bunch of Grad rockets there--there's a lot of fighting in that area. But the complaints are too consistent and too diverse. These are soldiers who take their cell phones with them and call home every couple of days. The reports are coming not just from generals, but from mothers and wives, and not just from D'yakovo or Gukovo but all along the border. The Ukrainian press is very open about reporting on ambiguities, lies, and misinformation from their military spokesfolk. They are not Russian, where even when the findings of an international commission that refutes what the Russian military says is reported as confirmation: The Russian military said that flight MH17 had diverted 17 km north--wink-wink, nudge-nudge--and the commission said that the plane was in the flight path and they had no criticism for the Ukr dispatchers . Spin: "The Ministry of Defense's statement was confirmed, because the Ministry of Defense said they were taking steps to return to their route, but 17 km is still within the limits of the route."
Are Russian troops doing this? Perhaps not. Perhaps the Russians are allowing the rebels to use their territory. There's been enough flow of munitions and fighters across into Ukraine through official border checkpoints, through towns and across scores of miles of public roads. The rebel leaders and commanders have no trouble getting back across the border. Even if there are places where the Russian army is within a couple hundred meters of the border or dug in.
A number of Orlans have been downed, as well. Recently the reports are that they are just Russian made. Some have been downed in Donets'k and other places far from the border, relatively speaking. The early reports were all at the border, and usually included the direction that they vanished in--back across the border. Then anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes later fairly well sighted in mortar or artillery would start from the rebel side. In one case the attack didn't hit the troops but the command post that had been set up just a couple of hours before. Dead on. Destroyed it.
It's not a secret. It's just that the West hasn't wanted to deal with the implications of what's been going on. If they knew the extent of the assistance they'd be stuck to admit either they speak big words but only for domestic consumption--they really don't care about human rights or human lives--or they'd have to do something they really don't want to do. Russian military documents that are still valid, equipment inspection slips saying that the equipment was last inspected on a given date at a given armory in Russia, tank serial numbers, equipment transfer documentation showing where a Grad or piece of artillery was assigned. Vids shot in Russia showing tank and equipment #s, showing up in Krasnodon a day later and in Luhansk or Snizhne a couple of days later. For a propaganda campaign fomented and launched by the West, the West it's pretty lame--it's gone on for months and the Western press and diplomats and militaries have ignored it.
Remember the shock-and-awe campaign, showing pictures of downtown Baghdad exploding? How do you know that happened? Perhaps it was a movie set. Perhaps it was real footage of Baghdad with CGI graphics. At least with moon-walk footage they've done things like look at dust trajectory to show that it had to have been shot in a vacuum at low Fg.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Russia's foreign ministry says the Ukrainian army is responsible for the shelling that killed a man inside Russian territory, warning that the incident could have "irreversible consequences".
Russian investigators say a man was killed and a woman injured when a shell fired from Ukrainian territory landed in the courtyard of a private house in the village of Donetsk, in Russia's Rostov region.
"Naturally, this action will not be left without a corresponding reaction," the deputy foreign minister, Grigory Karasin, said in a radio interview on Sunday. "The talk with the Ukrainian side on this issue is going to be serious and tough."
...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/ukrainian-shell-russian-border-town-donetsk
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)That's crazy. The grad attack from Russia that killed 40 Ukrainians is enough.
Igel
(35,309 posts)Ukraine is, in Russia's view, responsible for MH17's downing.
*Even if the rebels fired the shot.* And even if it's an accident.
Because if there was no "punitive campaign" by the "fascist junta" then there'd be no artillery in use.
The Ukr soldiers/border guards are often between the rebels and the Russian border. If you fire artillery at the Ukr soldiers, you may overshoot by a bit. Or it's been claimed that the rebels want to provoke a reluctant Russia into sending in "peacekeepers" or troops.
At times there are rebels between the Ukr forces and the Russian border. The same problem holds. It's hard to be completely precise when the "enemy" is 30 feet from the border and your equipment is good to within a couple hundred feet.
Note that Ukr soldiers and border guards are distinct groups. There are at least 4: border guards, soldiers, guardsmen, and a sort of volunteer self-defense force that fortunately does little.
Just as on the rebel side there are a number of groups. Bezler's group in Horlivka coordinates with Strelkov's in Donets'k when it suits Bezler. Mozgovoi just pulled out of Lysychansk--his motives are ambiguous, he says "to protect lives" and the Ukr says "his butt was kicked", but some Chechens and Cossacks stayed. Bolotov of the LPR claims to command Mozgovoi, but Mozg says he takes orders from Strelkov. Bolotov is Ukrainian; Strelkov was FSB until 3/13, by his own report, having served in Chechnya, Transnistria, and late winter in Crimea. Mozg is Russian (Bezler's Ukrainian). There are a couple of Cossack groups still kicking around, along with the Russian Orthodox Army (which is already sort of famous for disbanding a Catholic church in Luhansk yesterday; its peers in Crimea are trying to shut down a Ukrainian Orthodox Church and has gone in a couple of times to stop services and rough up the priest and the lay members ... as police watch). Then there are the "little green men" that resurfaced in the last week or so. Shades (of green) of Crimea.
You need a scorecard to keep them straight.
The Guardian will eventually come up to speed. Part of the problem I've noticed even with US networks is that they have crappy interpreters and translators. Some of them are inevitably sloppy--if I were interpreting into Russian I'd make the same kind of mistakes. Sometimes I have to wonder, though. And in more than a couple of cases the translations are unnecessarily ambiguous. That might be sloppiness, it might be lack of context on the part of the linguist involved, it might be an L2 problem, it might be something else more pernicious.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)From a war zone? According to a Ukrainian blog? Possibly, but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt.
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)Some of the more modern missile artillery that Russia has can hit targets around roughly 40 miles away.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If Russians were firing missiles at Ukrainian forces, I assume the US spokesperson would have used that term.
Standard artillery hasn't advanced all that much since WW1. A bit more range (notably with rocket-propelled projectiles), and a bit better accuracy. A WW1 gun crew could probably operate a modern artillery piece with little training... it would be very familiar to them.
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)Today's Artillery has a much greater range than those guns of WWll, Korea, and even Vietnam.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)ISIS is much worse. There is a humanitarian catastrophe happening over in Syria and Iraq.
I want to hear what the international community is going to do resolve that.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)(can't say I blame them), we're broke, and no one can tell which bad guys are the worst bad guys.
It's a fucking mess, both places. But I think Ukraine has greater risk of a global conflagration, at least if we start calling Putins bullshit.
I thank the stars that they're not in NATO.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)welcome to the 21st century.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)and their "toys" on their Russian facebook page, complete with geotags:
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/07/russian-soldiers-vk-page-shows-russia.html?m=1
I don't know much about this site. Perhaps someone has more info than I do.
The site also posted similar information about the Buk SAM missile that may have shot down MH17.
candelista
(1,986 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)and am asking if anyone else has seen this and can make an evaluation.
Perhaps Russians are just as mesmerized by social media as people in the West are, and post all sorts of incriminating items without much thought.
See reply #7, which states that Russian soldiers are bragging about shelling Ukraine on Twitter.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)“I would like to know what you’re basing this new evidence that the Russians intend to send any heavier equipment,” Lee asked.
The details, Harf responded, are “based on some intelligence information.”
“I can’t get into the sources and methods behind it,” Harf insisted to Lee’s chagrin. “I can’t tell you what the information is based on,” she said at one point during the back-and-forth.
http://rt.com/usa/175388-state-department-briefing/
KoKo
(84,711 posts)It's a revealing watch.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)In dozens of his reconstructions he's not yet been proven wrong.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)His track record is good, as you point out.
If Russians are firing artillery into Ukraine from Russia, then we are seeing what could be an escalation of the fighting in southeastern Ukraine.
News these days is often so grim on all fronts that I don't want to speculate about any escalation in Ukraine--it makes my brain freeze.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)It's just that only now the US is making a fuss about it. Putin is basically arguing that those in Russia firing into Ukrainian are actually from Ukraine and he's not helping them.
Of course, if Ukraine sent a sortie in there to take out the artillery then Russia would respond quite strongly...
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)There would be more pressure here to take our assistance to the Ukrainian military to a new level. I feel bad for Ukraine, but I remember all the proxy wars between the USSR and the US and I don't look forward to a repeat.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Of course I have no idea what is being said on the video. I don't see anything passing through the air at all. It's as if the explosions erupt out of the ground itself. Are these shells too small to see?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)
cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)Iraq where as in this case there is zero chance the Obama administration would try to invade Russia.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Did we use propagandist demonization to go into Syria? If we were going to duke it out with anyone, we would have gone into Syria, not someone that can bloody our nose real good (Russia).
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)It is not always for a war ... it is to garner influence internationally by playing the role of the good guys when we ourselves have unclean hands.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)but Russia wants more than influence- they want to steal that land. Of course, there is very little we can do about it. Just because we are dirty doesn't mean Putin is nothing but a thug.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)
William769
(55,147 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Since the US spokesperson didn't specify the type of artillery, I selected a typical medium sized, long range, Soviet made gun-howitzer that appears to be still widely used.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/152_mm_towed_gun-howitzer_M1955_(D-20)
Maximum range is 15 miles using a rocket-propelled projectile (which likely isn't being used in this case). Effective range is 11 miles. Either probably requires a forward observer to direct fire. W/O a forward observer, they'd either be dropping random shells to harass, or firing close range (within line of sight) where targeting can be done from near the gun position.
This gun is towed behind a heavy truck, and requires a dozen or more men to operate. Very possible the same system is mounted on heavy, self-propelled, tracked vehicles.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
- And that they are a bunch of women and child murdering assholes who have no fucking right to point any fingers at ANYONE!
[center]
U.S. airstrike that killed American teen in Yemen raises legal, ethical questions[/center]
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)lack of evidence to involve the Russians (or evidence too self-damning to present) regarding the downing of a passenger aircraft, an aid drums up some dirt to spread around in hopes of further action. Sick, sick, sick.
Cha
(297,221 posts)stands up for his homophobia, internet crackdowns, and stomping journalists who disagree with his policies.
Julia Ioffe @juliaioffe Follow
Muscovites leaving flowers and candles by the Dutch embassy in #Moscow. One note says “Forgive us."
5:45 PM - 17 Jul 2014
154 Retweets 53 favorites
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)If the US released high level real time images of Russian's shooting at Ukrainians, high quality stuff, I mean real time full color stuff, it'd be blowing a load on techno ability and it would be saying "we think this is a bigger deal than it is."
So using "social media intelligence" is as far as they are willing to take it because they don't want to send a message that they want to actually do anything.
We're talking WWIII type crap here.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)It's probably better to have ABM missiles in Ukraine if you plan on winning WWIII
The Adjutant General of the California National Guard, David Baldwin, announced this during a meeting with Deputy Defense Minister Ihor Kabanenko.
Baldwin said that the American side highly appreciates its cooperation with the Armed Forces of Ukraine and that it is ready to provide comprehensive support to them.
He stressed that a draft law on prevention of Russian aggression, adoption of which will allow Ukraine to obtain the status of an ally of the United States without NATO membership, is currently under consideration by the United States government.
http://un.ua/eng/article/522930.html
https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/2277
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)McCain or Romney would've started total war by now... over a small domestic issue being moderately fed by Russia. Russia can't invade because it'd trigger automatic sanctions so it keeps doing this low level crap that isn't really swaying the war in the direction of the rebels.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)You just cant understand people like Putin and what drives them. he WILL NOT stop until he reaches whatever his goal is
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Russia's military is likely a reluctant participant in Ukraine's conflict, the top U.S. military officer said on Thursday, adding that although he had not spoken to his Moscow counterpart in about two months he was keeping an open line of communication.
"I think the Russian military and its leaders that I know are probably somewhat reluctant participants in this form of warfare," General Martin Dempsey said, noting Russia's use of both conventional forces along the border and of proxies inside the country.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/25/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-dempsey-idUSKBN0FU0A520140725
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They're not acting reluctant to attack Ukraine.