Russian aid convoy heads for Ukraine amid doubts over lorries' contents

[pampango]

Source: UK Guardian

Kiev says it will turn back shipment which Moscow describes as humanitarian but which west says could be prelude to invasion

A huge Russian convoy allegedly carrying humanitarian aid was on its way to war-torn eastern Ukraine on Tuesday night, in a operation which the west fears may be a prelude to a Russian invasion but which Moscow insists is designed to relieve the suffering of besieged residents trapped by conflict.

About 280 military lorries hastily repainted white by Russian soldiers trundled off from the Moscow region despite a lack of international agreement over where exactly they were heading or what they contained. Ukraine said it would not allow the convoy to enter its territory. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) – informed by Moscow last week of a possible shipment – said the mode of transporting the aid safely to those who needed it had yet to be worked out.

In recent weeks the pro-Russian rebels have suffered a series of heavy defeats, losing large chunks of territory, with their empire shrivelled to the two major eastern cities of Donetsk and Luhansk. At the same time Ukraine has warned of a major buildup of Russia forces on its border.

Andre Loersch, the ICRC's spokesman in Ukraine, told the Guardian that Moscow had yet to give it basic details of what was actually on board the lorries. ... Loersch added: "We are still waiting for official information [from Moscow] about the content of these trucks."

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-humanitarian

---

I am not sure the hyper-nationalists on either side will be happy in the long run with the precedent that a foreign country can unilaterally provide aid without it going through established international aid organizations. I don't think Russia would have been happy to see a foreign country unilaterally decide to provide aid to Chechen civilians when Chechnya tried to separate from Russia.

If the US or other country had decided to send an aid convoy to Homs in Syria to help civilians, I doubt that Assad or Putin would have been very happy about it.

Let's hope this convoy is actually just bringing aid but, without the Red Cross or the UN monitoring it, we may never know for sure.

[DeSwiss]

1. ....

[pampango]

3. As a "liberal internationalist" I see the value in helping the suffering regardless of national

boundaries and the wishes of national governments. However, I realize that many (including many liberals) do not want to see individual countries (Russia, the US, the EU, China, etc.) deciding unilaterally where they can intervene - without some authorization or coordination from the UN, Red Cross or other international organizations.

If this were a country with which the US had a tense relationship - say Cuba - and we unilaterally decided to intervene for 'humanitarian reasons', many of us would urge caution (to say the least).

The irony I see is that don't see evidence that Putin is a 'liberal internationalist'. I see him as a Russian nationalist who does not, in principle, believe that individual countries (other than Russia, I suppose) have the right to intervene in other countries, such as Syria or Ukraine, even for humanitarian reasons.

[TT_Progress]

2. Looks like More hype and propaganda - Russia would not need to send

in camo trucks; who makes this stuff up?

There is a large border area still controlled by the rebels, Russia could just as easily go right in. There are also OSCE observers at the Russian borders who will surely look this over. It has been agreed upon and was pretty much requested by the Red Cross (though they seem to be getting concerned with the politics going on and could end up pausing things. They are getting afraid they could end up being fired upon basically.

Of course Ukraine will look at it as bad press for them, which is really what it looks like is the largest concern. Ukraine could not put together that kind of support for the civilians and it somewhat makes a "score" for the Russian side of propaganda. But who cares? It is needed?

[DonViejo]

4. No one has ever done that kind of thing before...

sent warriors in under a disguise of being friendly

[DeSwiss]

6. You do realize that's a myth, don't you?

- Never mind.



''The further a society drifts from Truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.'' ~George Orwell

[DonViejo]

7. Fine, you want to dismiss the myth, that's fine...

Do some reading of battles in WW2 or even the Civil War, when Americans did things very similarly (not saying the other sides didn't do it too)

Never mind, it's probably beyond you at this point.

[DeSwiss]

8. No, but you are definitely beyond me. n/t

[freshwest]

9. Beat me to it. 280 trucks, no inspection of contents, painted white instead of camo?

Just think of the possibilities!

The Kremlin narrative is that they are only there as friends to the ethnic Russians and that will sway those who believe Putin is doing the right thing. The Ukrainian nation that evolved out of the collapse of the USSR may want to go it alone, though.

I don't draw the line of Ukrainians not being Russians. They were a big part of Russia on and off. Ukraine as we know it now isn't even 20 years old.

Whether they liked it or not during the days they were under the Czar or the USSR, doesn't mean much to those who look at history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Soviet_Socialist_Republic

I see no difference in the Ukrainians and the Russians. This is like a couple who marries, divorces, marries again. It's a really nasty divorce this time around.

People in that region, no matter what ideology they follow, DO need that aid, if it really is humanitarian aid. An agreement should be made, the Russians should let them see what is in the trucks, and possibly give the aid to the Ukrainians to distribute. If that is the intent. We give food aid and even weaponry and let locals decide.

Food doesn't fight back, not usually. And no weapons should in those trucks, nor any soldiers. JMHO...

[TT_Progress]

19. Considering that the Trojan Horse is likely a myth

This whole hysteria is not even rational. Most Westerners (which I am) have had such poor information on what is going on in Ukraine they don't even realize why that is the case.

This is the currently controlled areas of the rebels (It is a week old and the rebel controlled border is actually larger currently). It should become obvious.

[TT_Progress]

5. International (not the American Red Cross).

http://www.icrc.org/eng/

Though it appears the info is dated. Reports are still conflicting but it sounds like both Red Cross and Ukrainian officials approved and a plan was put into place to supervise, but no doubt there is a lot of pressure from various groups to "handle" this and the situation could get jostled.

[LanternWaste]

18. Humanitarian aid was also a cover for Moscow's incursions into Crimea and Georgia

Humanitarian aid was also a cover for Moscow's incursions into Crimea and Georgia (unsurprisingly, both of which are wholly or partly under Russian occupation). Simply allow Red Cross inspections and escort (which to date, have not been allowed access), and everyone will be happy.

[Demeter]

10. If I were a Ukrainian Elitist playing at fascism

I'd be much more afraid of real humanitarian aid: food, water, fuel, medicine and doctors.

Because the Ukrainians need that aid, and they aren't stupid. If Ukraine's government cannot provide real aid, and Russia can, guess who is gonna be in charge in the near future?

[Igel]

12. Part of the problem is local.

"Green corridors" are set up, but not permitted by one side.

The requirements for nearly any negotiation have been pretty much one sided. Even things like prisoner swaps "must" be on conditions that are really favorable to the rebels. Remember the ceasefire--the first precondition was the complete removal of all Ukrainian troops and "groups" from the entirety of the Donets'k and Luhans'k repubics. Which meant the entirety of the oblasts or "states". The problem was, at no point did the DPR or LPR control more than about half of each oblast. So for a ceasefire, first you have to allow them to double their sizes? And this they called "without preconditions."

The Russian portrayal of the Ukrainian unilateral ceasefire was also lopsided. So the "ceasefire" was conditioned on no attacks: If attacked, the Ukrainians reserved the right to respond. That might mean shooting the attacker, it might mean destroying the artillery position and capturing it. The rebel press would be of claims of attacks against the Ukrainians, but of even more "ceasefire violations" when the Ukr forces responded. The Russian press would report mostly on just the "violations". What, exactly, they were a violation of was a mystery to many that read Poroshenko's statements, but crystal clear to Lavrov's portrayal. Lavrov, as in many other ways, says what he wants others to have said.

All of this parallels Ukrainian reports on attempts to open "humanitarian" corridors or work on restoring some infrastructure's been reported in the Ukrainian media. If it hadn't been the case that you could read the Ukrainian statements and then compare it with the rebel's responses *as reported by the rebels' own media sources", they might not be believable.

As for "real aid," I guess if there's a need for aid in someplace like Ecuador and the US can provide it we can only conclude that in the near future the US will be in charge in Ecuador?

[Demeter]

13. Trust me, the US govt/ is NOT going to provide aid to Ecuador

because the US govt. dislikes the President of Ecuador, and cannot fathom the concept of humanitarian assistance without strings, and Ecuador is not going to give the US yet another method of trying infiltrate to overthrow its government.

[daleo]

14. The west was sending humanitarian aid to Syrian rebels not long ago

I don't know if we still are - they are now our enemies in Iraq, so perhaps not. But maybe we still prefer them to Assad in Syria, since Assad is friendly with Russia, who are our sort-of Cold War enemies again. Who can keep score anymore?

The point is, we have a long history of this type of activity.

[dipsydoodle]

15. 280-truck Russian aid convoy set to reach Ukraine border within hours

A huge Russian convoy allegedly carrying humanitarian aid was expected to reach the Ukrainian border on Wednesday afternoon, in an operation the west fears may be a prelude to a Russian invasion but which Moscow insists is designed to relieve the suffering of besieged residents trapped by conflict.

About 280 military trucks hastily repainted white by Russian soldiers trundled off from the Moscow region on Tuesday despite a lack of international agreement over where exactly they were heading or what they contained.

Ukraine said it would not allow the convoy to enter its territory. The prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, said on Wednesday that Ukraine would only accept humanitarian aid from the Red Cross and within the framework of international law. He also promised his government would spend 10m hryvnia (£450,000) on vital supplies for eastern Ukraine and ordered several ministries to form Kiev's own humanitarian convoy.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) – informed by Moscow last week of a possible shipment – said the mode of transporting the aid safely to those who needed it had yet to be worked out.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/russia-aid-convoy-reach-ukraine-within-hours

[dipsydoodle]

16. Associated Press: Ukraine-bound Russian convoy stuck amid bickering

VORONEZH, Russia — Hundreds of Russian trucks carrying aid intended for rebel-held eastern Ukraine remained parked Wednesday in the southern city of Voronezh, their fate shrouded in mystery as Ukraine accused Moscow of plotting to use them as a cover for invasion.

Fighting between government troops and pro-Russian separatists increased as the U.N.'s human rights office released figures showing the number of people killed in eastern Ukraine appears to have doubled in the last two weeks to more than 2,000....

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-13-07-04-06

[pampango]

17. Russian convoy stops close to Ukraine border

Group of 280 trucks, reportedly carrying humanitarian aid, stops in field 25 miles from rebel-controlled border crossing


The convoy of trucks travels from Voronezh towards Rostov-on-Don in Russia.

A large Russian convoy reportedly carrying humanitarian aid has arrived close to the border with eastern Ukraine, near a crossing point controlled by pro-Russian separatists.

The route of the 280-truck convoy, which set off from the Moscow region on Tuesday, has been closely followed by journalists, observers and the international community amid fears it is a Trojan horse-style military invasion.

Ukraine has said it will not allow the trucks, escorted by Russian soldiers, to enter its territory. But Moscow-backed rebels are in charge of the Izvarino crossing point, near where the convoy has stopped.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which was informed by Moscow last week of the shipment, said it still had no details of where the convoy was heading. Its destination appears to be Luhansk, one of two major cities still controlled by rebels, and the scene of fierce fighting between the Ukrainian army and separatist forces.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-convoy-stops-close-to-ukraine-border

[Adrahil]

20. If it's humanitarian aid, why not submit to an inspection, or turn supplies over to the Red Cross?

There's more in play here than compassion.

[One_Life_To_Give]

22. Better Press at Home to have Ukraine overreact

Anything that helps paint the Kiev government as not caring about the people in the breakaway region is good for Putin domestically. Get Kiev to balk about the supplies, delay a few days and then have the western press video the generosity of the Russian people would make good propaganda.

[Bosonic]

21. Two reporters have just witnessed a definitely not aid-related convoy entering Ukraine

So @RolandOliphant and I just saw a column of APCs and vehicles with official Russian military plates cross border into Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/499985823274917889

NB I don't think this was "the invasion" proper. This is probably what has been happening for a while. Extraordinary to see it though.

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/499987210704535552

@shaunwalker7 and I just witnessed a not insubstantial column of APCs and trucks slipping across the border into Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/RolandOliphant/status/499986161121898496

Didn't even turn off their headlights. Saw Russian military plates on support vehicles, but no markings I could make out on APCs.

https://twitter.com/RolandOliphant/status/499987228534525953

[reorg]

23. Wikileaks comments:

@shaunwalker7 A very important observation. Why is it that two journalists with multiple cameras were somehow unable to take a single photo?

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/500011758741114881

[Bosonic]

24. Since it's not RT it's not true huh?

I suspect you and your ilk will try hard to deny and distract

[reorg]

25. How would I know?

And how would you?

The only photo they have is of one vehicle without a license plate, and it could have been taken anywhere. The "reporter" (who looks like an intern) says it's been taken 10 km away from the Ukrainian border, so who gives a shit.

Reportedly this boy has been hallucinating for months that he is seeing Russian invaders. Well, in this particular case he claims the military vehicles were accompanying the aid convoy:

The APCs had been traveling with a humanitarian aid convoy of unmarked white trucks that Vladimir Putin's government was sending to Ukraine.

http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-military-vehicles-crossed-into-ukraine-2014-8

If true, this could mean that the Russians take the Ukrainian threat seriously: it was reported today that if the Russians wouldn't submit to border controls and hand over the aid trucks to the Red Cross, the Ukrainians would "defend themselves". When asked if that would include shooting, Mr. Lyssenko confirmed: Yes, that means we are going to shoot them (video, in German, by ARD).

[joshcryer]

26. They took pictures and posted news articles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11035401/Russian-armoured-vehicles-and-military-trucks-cross-border-into-Ukraine.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border

Wikileaks is obfuscating in a Glen Beck type of way. It was a night crossing, they would deny it happened no matter what evidence was provided.

I trust the eyewitness testimony of these reporters.