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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Tue Aug 12, 2014, 05:12 PM Aug 2014

UK Says To Suspend Some Israel Arms Exports If Gaza Truce Fails

Source: REUTERS


LONDON Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:27pm IST

Aug 12 (Reuters) - Britain said on Tuesday it would suspend 12 licences to export military items to Israel, including tank, aircraft and radar parts, if hostilities with Hamas in Gaza resumed, citing concerns the exports may be used to breach international laws.

Britain said last week it was reviewing all arms export licences to Israel after fierce fighting which has resulted in heavy civilian casualties in the Palestinian enclave of Gaza.

That review concluded on Tuesday that 12 licences would be temporarily suspended pending further investigation if the current truce breaks down and heavy fighting resumes.

"The UK government has not been able to clarify if the export licence criteria are being met," Business Secretary Vince Cable said in a statement.

Read more: http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/08/12/mideast-gaza-britain-idINL6N0QI40120140812

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
2. Now we are in the position of taking a lesson in morality . . .
Tue Aug 12, 2014, 06:20 PM
Aug 2014

From the Conservative Party running the British government.

(sigh)

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
4. Even people like Elizabeth Warren support sending high tech US weapons to Israel
Tue Aug 12, 2014, 07:07 PM
Aug 2014

The recent bill to fund Iron Dome passed unanimously in the Senate.

The weapons will continue to flow to Israel.

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
11. People Are Afraid Of Israel
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 12:25 AM
Aug 2014

But I bet she will reconsider this previous stance after seeing the bloodbath and destruction Israel had committed as well as the genocide and racism that seems to be more vocal emanating from Israels right wing.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
3. No the Israeli Centurion Tanks will not be able to get parts!!!!
Tue Aug 12, 2014, 06:48 PM
Aug 2014

Ok, the Centurion is in the reserves (Technically Retired and replaced by the Merkava series of tanks, but kept in reserves, through unlike the M48 and M60 tanks NOT scheduled to be scrapped or sold).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_tank#Middle_East

Please note, Centurions with their turrets removed and converted into Armored Personal Carriers have been used in Gaza, along with similar converted T-54s.

T-54 version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Achzarit

Centurions versions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagmachon


nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
13. This is important because even the old Centurian
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 05:38 AM
Aug 2014

is a better tank than mostly any others in the Middle East. Its vastly superior to the T54s and T55s. If Israel has to revert to the T55s they would attain third world status in that regard as there are over 100,000 of those tanks around the world distributed by the old Soviet Union. Finding Centurian parts in scattered places might be almost fruitless. Israel could, like it has done in the past, just fabricate and machine tool parts themselves, if they can.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
14. According to IDF reports the T-54/55 was the easiest tanks to repair and maintain in the field
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:08 AM
Aug 2014

Thus the IDF has kept many captured T-54/55s back for later use (And gave many of them to its allies in Lebanon in the 1980s and 1990s, it is an easy tank to operate).

As to the Centurion vs T-54/55 that the Centurion is the better tank, most of the contests between the two tanks have been won by Centurions do to better training of the Centurion tank crews then it being a better tank. Furthermore the T-54 was designed for the flat Russian Steppes, the Centurion for the more hilly terrain of Western Europe, and in most combat fights, like in Israel, the fighting between the two has been in areas more like Western Europe then the Steppes (The big exception would be the Sinai Campaign of 1967, where the Israeli army moved so fast that Egyptian forces ended up abandoning their T-54s in the retreat as they ran out of fuel, again an example of bad training and supply not a bad tank).

The T-54 has a lower overall height then the Centurion (but the greater height permits the Centurion to lower its main gun lower so the Centurion can hide more of the tank behind terrain then can the T-54 series of tanks). The Centurion had a better ability to climb hills (In Korea, Centurions were preferred to American M26 and M46 Pershing tanks, through the M4 Sherman was preferred over all three. The M4 was preferred for the M4 had the highest horsepower to weight ratio of the three in Korea and thus was best at climbing hills. After 1951 they was no Tank to Tank Combat in Korea, so the M4 limitations of having a its 76mm Cannon was NOT a problems for it was just as good for what the tank was being used for, fire support, as the 90mm cannon of the Centurion and M26 and M46 tanks in Korea).

Another problem with the T-54 is that it was designed for small crewmen (no bigger then 5'8&quot that was roughly the same regulations as WWII US Submarines (If you were six foot tall you could NOT enter the US Sub service in or before WWII). Given you had to be 5'4" tall to enlist or be drafted into the US Army, most US Soldiers are to tall for use inside a T-54. I bring this up for the T-54 is always called "Cramped" by Western Standards, but once you understand the height restrictions as to the tank crew, then the size makes sense.

This is weird when you consider that the old horse mounted cavalry units that the Tank Unis claim descent from, also tended to like short men. Short men weigh less and thus no not wear out horses as quickly as taller men. Six foot cavalrymen are common in the Movies, but not in real life (Patton was considered to tall for the cavalry, but he was permitted to be a cavalrymen for he was an officer).

Just a comment that many people consider the T-54 the best post WWII tank. Yes, western tanks were bigger and had more armor and bigger engines, but when operated by a well trained crew the T-54 could defeat post WWII era tanks. The T-54 series was so good that the Russians had to go a different route for its replacement. The T-62, an attempt to upgrade the T-54 was a failure, thus the T-64 and T-72 with their reduction to a three man crew and an automatic loader ended up replacing the T-54 (and they are people who think T-54s will be in use long after the 1960s and even the 1980s era tanks are long gone, mostly do to the T-54 ease of repair and effectiveness if you accept and understand its strengths and weaknesses).

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
15. That's interesting, you told me a whole bunch about the T54/55s
Thu Aug 14, 2014, 12:17 AM
Aug 2014

I didn't know. All I had was a couple paragraphs in "Combat and Survival," (H.S.Stuttman Westport Conn).

"Remains in widespread use. Many countries are offering modernization kits." And, "The biggest weakness is its main armament." Then goes on to suggest replacing the gun with a 105-mm Royal Ordinance rifled weapon with laser sights."A cost effective MBT. (Main Battle Tank).

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
16. Among Western Reports they is a tendency to downplay the strong points of Russian Equipment.
Thu Aug 14, 2014, 04:00 PM
Aug 2014

And then emphasis the weaknesses. When pointing out Western Equipment such reports do the opposite (minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths). I saw this on a TV program where a English pilot who owned a Spitfire was asked to get in and talk about the strengths of the ME-109. This six foot pilot then talked about how CRAMP the ME-109 was compared to the Spitfire. The problem was in WWII the German Luftwaffe fighter pilots all tried to copy the Ernest Udet the highest German Act of WWI to survive WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Udet

Udet stood a tall 5' 3" tall, he was so short he could NOT even enlist in the German Army in 1914. He was a pre WWI motorcycle rider and when Germany made a call for such riders he was accepted even through he was still to small. Then Germany decided Motorcycles were NOT worth the effort (we are talking of WWI, what they called Gasoline we would call Crap, "Modern" 87 octane gasoline was NOT standardized till 1936 and then only for Aircraft, the US Army standardized on 87 octane during WWII, but even into the 1950s you could find gasoline with octane in the 50s, Higher Octane, permits lighter, more reliable and more powerful engines).

Anyway Udet still being only 5' 3" tall was kicked back out of the Army but had learned that if he had a Flying License he could serve in the German Air Force of WWI. He took lessons, obtain a flying license and was permitted to enlist. He then became the second highest German Ace, behind only the Red Baron himself. He became a stunt pilot in the 1920s, even flying in the US.

He was recruited into the Nazi Party by Herman Goring, who often him access to planes if he joined (it was more important for the Nazis to have Udet then Udet to have the Nazis thus the offer and he loved flying the latest planes). His personally life went downhill in the 1930s, he became a drunk and became more and more frustrated in his position in the German Air Force as he saw it going into decline. This brought on more depression and his suicide in November 1941.

Udet biggest contribution to the German Air Force during WWI, between the wars and during WWII was that small people could be excellent pilots and by using smaller people, planes could be made smaller and lighter. Thus the ME-109 was NOT designed to be flown by people over 5'8" i.e. the 6 foot English pilot who owned the Spitfire could NOT be a German WWII Fighter or dive bomber pilot (Could be a bomber pilot or a transport pilot, there height and weight did not matter as much).

I bring this up, for often what people see as a weakness, is a strength, but a strength ignored by western writers. In the case of the ME-109 that it was designed around small pilots is ignored, thus it is a "Cramp" plane. Russian tanks get the same treatment, because Russian Tanks were designed around small men, they are also reported as being "Cramp".

The M1 Rifle the US gave to Vietnamese Troops starting in the 1950s were found to be to heavy for the Typical South Vietnamese soldier, the M1 was designed around a man weighing 150 pounds (the 5'4" rule is related for it is rare to have men who are less then 5'4' soldiers weighing 150 pounds). The Viet Cong used the even heavier AK, but the AK had a much less powerful round that the typical Viet Cong Soldier could handle. Thus the SKS and AK rifles firing the 7.62x39 mm round was usable by such small soldiers, while the US 7.62x63 (30'06) round was just to much recoil for similar sized soldiers. Thus the first use of the AR-15 (the later M-16) was by South Vietnamese troops do to it being a lighter weapon firing a lighter round then the heavier M1. Another case where size of the Soldier was a factor, but ignored by the US and most western reports about such weapons for it showed a weakness of a weapon the US said was the best in the world.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
18. These "Combat and Survival," books
Sat Aug 16, 2014, 05:52 PM
Aug 2014

I've been reading were published in the late 80s and early 90s during the Cold War hysteria. The books, (which I found doing a cleaning job and they just gave them to me), are peppered with a lot of pro-Western rhetoric in that regard. On occasion they will remark on a Russian system, "not as powerful as the UK model but extremely robust and with much rough field capability." That's about as far as they will go to flatter the Warsaw Pact.

I wouldn't fit into a tank or a small plane but I'm pretty good for stacking boxes up high and changing light bulbs. I'm sure that's why they gave me the job down the street.

4now

(1,596 posts)
5. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanction movement is getting bigger everyday.
Tue Aug 12, 2014, 08:27 PM
Aug 2014

End Israeli apartheid:
Boycott, Divest, Sanction.
http://www.bdsmovement.net/

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