Israeli Tactic To Stop Soldiers' Capture Criticized After Its Use Kills Some 100 Palestinians

[Purveyor]

Source: Associated Press

JERUSALEM — An Israeli military tactic that allows overwhelming fire to stop the capture of soldiers — even at the risk of killing them — is facing criticism after its use in the Gaza war killed some 100 Palestinians.

The military used the "Hannibal Procedure" after soldiers feared militants had captured an officer, unleashing heavy shelling on the southern Gaza town of Rafah. Now, a group is calling on the military to abandon the practice, saying it puts captured soldiers at unreasonable risk and can lead to civilian deaths.

In an army with a strong ethos of "no soldier left behind," there is a near obsession with preventing the abduction of Israeli troops, in part because past cases have ended in painful, lopsided prisoner exchanges after years of protracted negotiations. New recruits learn that if they see a soldier being captured and rushed away in a car, they should shoot at the vehicle to stop its progress, even if it risks the soldier's life.

The "Hannibal Procedure" was designed in the mid-1980s by Yossi Peled, then head of Israel's Northern Command, after Hezbollah guerrillas captured two soldiers in southern Lebanon.

Read more: http://www.greenfieldreporter.com/view/story/5616833e4c9c45a092f0acd9d60d5b5a/ML--Israel-Captured-Soldiers

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Ya think? Better to kill a hundred innocent Palestinians and the captured soldier...

...then let Hamas have a POW.

That is some murderous, fucked up logic.

Oh, and your tax dollars at work.

[intaglio]

2. There are three elements to the Israeli actions

The first is to reclassify any captured troops as "kidnapped"; this looks better on the nightly news and implies the event was not the result of combat.

The second is to scare the living shit out of IDF troops and to force them into fighting until killed.

Thirdly, in the heads of the Israeli Government dead heroes are better than live POWs because POWs require negotiation to free and require that the forces you face be treated as legitimate.

I would quite like to find out how many Israeli troops have died because of this tactic because, in all honesty, it would again highlight the criminal actions of the criminal Israeli government.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

9. Was thinking the same thing. n/t

[Turbineguy]

3. This tactic would not work.

Threatening to give 100 Palestinians good paying jobs would work.

[hack89]

4. Before the suicide bombings they had those jobs

Let's not forget why the walls went up in the first place. Palestinians use to routinely commute to Israel for decent paying jobs.

[7962]

5. Hey, it only took 4 comments before common sense showed up! ^^^

Hamas is losing its support little by little. Even Iran is starting to ignore them, but slowly. They've already lost support from Egypt, Jordan and many other Arab countries.
Without outside help, they'll wither and fade away.

[intaglio]

12. Israel is loosing its support

...little by little. All Arab countries do their best to ignore them whilst many European governments have seen the vile actions of the IDF for what they are - terrorism.

Without outside support Israel will wither and fade away.

[7962]

15. And yet another cease fire broken by Hamas. Surprising? No.

Israel will never lose support of the people that matter.

[intaglio]

19. People that matter?

Like you??

BTW what do you call a "ceasefire" that does nothing to relieve oppression or allow humanitarian relief or where the oppressor insists on denigrating humanitarian relief? Personally I call it meaningless Israeli propaganda.

[7962]

20. No,I should've said nations instead of"people"

They've had numerous chances at humanitarian aid. I refuse to cater to those who celebrated in the streets when we were attacked on 9/11. They've made the wrong choices since '47, when they could've had their own actual country, and they havent learned yet. They're simply being used by others as a pawn, they just dont realize it I guess.

[intaglio]

23. You propagandist

Please read the letter in The Lancet (this link for full text) in respect of the nauseating refusal of the Israelis to allow humanitarian aid.

/snip

The blockade on Gaza has tightened further since last year and this has worsened the toll on Gaza's population. In Gaza, people suffer from hunger, thirst, pollution, shortage of medicines, electricity, and any means to get an income, not only by being bombed and shelled. Power crisis, gasoline shortage, water and food scarcity, sewage outflow and ever decreasing resources are disasters caused directly and indirectly by the siege

/snip

Gaza has been blockaded by sea and land since 2006. Any individual of Gaza, including fishermen venturing beyond 3 nautical miles of the coast of Gaza, face being shot by the Israeli Navy. No one from Gaza can leave from the only two checkpoints, Erez or Rafah, without special permission from the Israelis and the Egyptians, which is hard to come by for many, if not impossible. People in Gaza are unable to go abroad to study, work, visit families, or do business. Wounded and sick people cannot leave easily to get specialised treatment outside Gaza. Entries of food and medicines into Gaza have been restricted and many essential items for survival are prohibited.3 Before the present assault, medical stock items in Gaza were already at an all time low because of the blockade.3 They have run out now. Likewise, Gaza is unable to export its produce. Agriculture has been severely impaired by the imposition of a buffer zone, and agricultural products cannot be exported due to the blockade. 80% of Gaza's population is dependent on food rations from the UN.

Much of Gaza's buildings and infrastructure had been destroyed during Operation Cast Lead, 2008—09, and building materials have been blockaded so that schools, homes, and institutions cannot be properly rebuilt. Factories destroyed by bombardment have rarely been rebuilt adding unemployment to destitution.

[7962]

25. And they've said many times that if hamas stopped attacking & threatening, they'd lift the blockade

The crumbling buildings and infrastructure could've been helped by the millions of tons of material and billions of dollars in aid money spent on 100s of state-of-the-art tunnels into Israel. But again, they choose violence over peace. Stop attacking and tunneling and they'll get peace. Any progress on Hamas dropping its demand for the total destruction of Israel? No, they still preach the same nonsense
Why do you think the Egyptians also have them blockaded? Maybe because thats where the TROUBLE comes from. Now, even more so, since Hamas backed the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt has even more reason to keep the gates shut.
If you dont want to be punished anymore, stop doing what gets you punished. I learned that as a kid.

[intaglio]

27. And given the untrustworthyness of Israel

and the broken treaties you choose to believe them.

Personally I would not trust any war criminal, Israeli or Palestinian.

[7962]

29. Given a choice, I'll side with those who DONT wish us dead.

[intaglio]

30. So now you conflate Hamas with other terroists

How classy - and misleading.

Mind you Israel didn't seem to care much for the Americans on the USS Liberty

[7962]

32. Ahh yes, the old fallback, the 45 yr old Liberty story

Thats always pulled out when there's no other argument. If they didnt act like the "other" terrorists, they wouldnt have celebrated en masse when we were attacked.

[intaglio]

34. So war crimes should be forgiven after 45 years?

Funny that I have never heard anyone regarding propose that the Nazis. What about the treatment of the Lebanese? What about the Gaza convoy?

Really the special pleading used Israel's Groupies has to be seen to be believed

[7962]

38. Didnt say I liked it. I'm sure the French didnt like us bombing their embassy either

But the big picture is that the Israelis are no threat to us. Hamas and their ilk are and likely always will be, along with their buddies Iran. Its amazing that you think people who continually commit terror attacks and support them deserve our support.

[intaglio]

40. Us? Who are you calling "us"?

By your metric Hamas are no threat to "us" indeed they seem to have done far less harm to American and European interests than Israel. Yet more special pleading from a groupie

[Mosby]

26. Israels GDP is more that all it's neighbors combined

Last edited Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Israel is an economic powerhouse, unlike all the Arab states excluding the gulf region.

[intaglio]

28. So economic success is supposed to excuse war crimes?

That's a new one.

Lebanon would be such a powerhouse if it had not been largely destroyed by Israeli aggression and, of course, you ignore Turkey. It would also be interesting to see what a powerhouse Israel would be if it was not in receipt of such vast quantities of aid from the USA.

[7962]

33. Our "vast quantities" are really not much at all. A few billion a yr. isnt keeping Israel afloat.

Dont forget the hundreds of millions given to the palestinians, who let Hamas use it to build tunnels.

[intaglio]

35. Do you have problems with mathematics?

Billions are an order of magnitude greater than hundreds of millions, the hellish destruction visited on Palestinian infrastructure means that they cannot build industry or even houses and the confiscation of Palestinian land together with the various blockades means they cannot grow food or even have sufficient to eat.

Hamas uses aid to build tunnels? What a load of invented garbage.

Up to there you had a D minus but that last load of stupidity makes it an F

[7962]

39. You're the one who needs help. I never said we gave equal amounts to them.

But you seem to think a few billion dollars is a huge amount to Israel. Its not. And the money we DO give the palestinians is taken by hamas and been proven to be spent on their tunnels and not on the people. Until the palestinians decide to pick different representation, let them wallow. They'd have no blockade if they quit backing Hamas.

[intaglio]

41. Maths fail - again

Do you know what the term "order of magnitude" means?

Cite your proof about spending on tunnels; do you have the receipts for the shovels, timber, concrete and labour? How much do you think that building such meagre tunnels cost? You are an idiot trying to deceive and not even deceiving well.

[7962]

42. "meager" tunnels? Ha. Here's your meager tunnel:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/08/israel-shocked-by-scope-of-hamas-tunnels-in-gaza-but-locating-them-still-a-challenge/
Solid concrete, railing, electricity, etc. All built with materials that couldve been used to build homes or sewers. But of course YOU wont believe it. Fine.
You continue to be the idiot backing terrorists, I'll go ahead and be the idiot supporting a country that supports us.

[intaglio]

43. Meagre, Barely 1m wide and 2m high

Primitively cast concrete blocks and arches to stop collapse. Bars of metal as rails - I'm sure that they will be running rapid transit trains down them soon. For some reason the IDF apologists like you seem surprised that Palestinians know how to use electricity, probably because of the concerted effort to deprive Gaza of electricity supplies by the IDF.

Essentially you and the IDF press release quoted by National Post are using cloacal ventriloquism. By the way have you worked out what an order of magnitude means yet?

[7962]

55. You're sure stuck on order of magnitude. At least math makes you happy!

I wish more kids these days enjoyed math! But the facts remain what they are. Hamas uses funds to build dozens, maybe hundreds, of tunnels. Money that would be better used for the people. But they know that they can get the sympathy from the hand-wringers. And they STILL call for the complete destruction of Israel. So you continue to side with those nutjobs. I'd prefer that we give the palestinains NO money until they drop Hamas as their leaders. They're already bragging today about how many missiles they've built for future use. That sure doesnt sound like they want peace to me.
Israel has said time and time again that they would lift the blockade if the attacks would stop. Its very simple. Drop Hamas and get rid of them and the palestinians can open their borders, go fishing and maybe even have an airport. If Israel is so evil, then why doesnt Hamas just stop attacking them and then ask the world why Israel is still blockading them? They could make a big show of it, getting rid of their weapons, like Assad getting rid of his chemical weapons. Shame Israel into lifting the blockade. Hell, if they did that, I'd even ask Israel why are they not lifting it.

[intaglio]

56. Yeah, money better used on items that the IDF can more readily destroy

My! how happy that would make you!

In your happy little fantasy world where an heroic IDF and the pure, innocent Government of Israel do nothing to attract the opprobrium of much of the world by

their murder of civilians,
their use of human shields,
their propaganda,
their abrogation of responsibility for consequences,
their use of assassination squads,
their use of starvation,
their destruction of infrastructure
their construction of nuclear weapons
their aggression
Their policy of slaughtering their own troops taken as prisoners of war

and a multitude of other dubious and outright criminal actions.

You accuse those critical of Israel of being uncritical of Hamas when all who oppose Israel's actions are quite happy to condemn Hamas for the crimes they have committed. The problem we face is that the wrongdoings of Hamas are outweighed ten thousandfold by the vile actions of an outlaw state.

[7962]

57. Hey, everything you listed perfectly describes Hamas! Except for the nukes of course.

Which Israel has never threatened to use. But how many times have we heard militant Islamic groups threaten to blow Israel up with one? Just a few weeks ago from ISIS as a matter of fact!
And Israel is the one using human shields? You're laughable. Here's the opinion Hamas has had for years:

And from their own mouths in THIS conflict: From the NYTimes. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/world/middleeast/by-phone-and-leaflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=2
A further warning came as the occupants were leaving, he said in a telephone interview, when an Israeli drone apparently fired a flare at the roof of the three-story home. “Our neighbors came in to form a human shield,” he said, with some even going to the roof to try to prevent a bombing.
Of course, you never took up my question-- if Israel is SO BAD, why doesnt Hamas stop pledging to destroy them, put down their weapons, and see if Israel drops the blockade, like they say they will? Then Israel would be on the spot; would they do the right thing? Why wont Hamas do that? Its very simple. STOP attacking and threatening Israel and the palestinians will get the freedom they desire. Thats all thats been asked from the start. MAybe Israel shouldve never given Gaza to them to start with. I guess they were just too kindhearted. The cycle will stop when Hamas stops. Its that simple.

[intaglio]

58. So do you condemn Israel for those actions?

Especially since they are carried out on a far larger scale and damage far more people. I won't hold my breath ...

[7962]

59. Well, if they actually DID what you said. And yes, I DO condemn them when warranted.

For example, the killing of that palestinian teenager. Of course, even there, netanyahoo condemned the action and the murderers were arrested. On the other hand, nothing but praise from Hamas for the killers of the 3 Israeli teens. And no arrests of course.

[intaglio]

60. Well everything I have said is accurate and on record

Murder of civilians - nearly 2000 in the latest assault alone, or do you class that as "collateral damage," like some Pentagon mouthpiece during the Vietnam War?
Use of human shields - Most recently Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza
Their propaganda - are you really denying that Israel does not have a propaganda machine? I mean surely you know that they do
Abrogation of responsibility for consequences, - B'Tselem Death Foretold: The inevitable outcome of bombing homes and inhabited areas in Gaza
Use of assassination squads - Kidon is an acknowledged part of the Israeli Intelligence apparatus, its purpose is assassination
Use of starvation - Minimal supplies delivered to Gaza, crops and farms destroyed most recently in the security zone, Gaza fisherman 'killed by Israeli navy'
Destruction of infrastructure - From the Guardian Israel is finding it harder to deny targeting Gaza infrastructure
Construction of nuclear weapons - Oh, yeah. You admit that.
Aggression - Well the Six Day war was Israeli aggression, attacks on Syria were acts of aggression and the list goes on
Policy of slaughtering their own troops taken as prisoners of war - The Hannibal Doctrine or Directive

Now as I have shown that all I have said about Israel and the IDF is true will you now condemn them, just as I have condemned Hamas.

[7962]

63. Wow, an article from Alternet. THATs reliable.

And from that article:"The London-based human rights group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence to support Israeli claims that Gaza's Islamist rulers used civilians as human shields"
Well, maybe they should read the NYT article I sent you. Or watch the videos of the Hamas leaders TELLING the people to remain in their homes if targeted. If they've found NO evidence, its only because they dont want to look.
Most of the tunnels found have had entrances right in the middle of civilian areas and even inside homes. So of course homes are being targeted. But as the NYT article shows, Israel constantly warns people of an impending attack. They choose to ignore it to martyr themselves. Do they ALWAYS warn them? Probably not.
As far as this "hannibal doctrine", its happened twice, supposedly, involving 2 soldiers and you call that a slaughter. Soldiers saying "dont let them take me alive" has been around since war began. And this hasnt actually been proven anyway.
The 6 Day War? Well, we have Egyptian troops massing at your border, Syria shelling civilian areas, PLO suicide attacks, closing the shipping lanes even after Israel said that would be an act of war, etc. I guess Israel shouldve just sat back and waited until the Arabs were fully ready to invade? And since then, Israel has given back the West Bank, Golan heights and Gaza. And left the Sinai as well. All in the name of peace. It worked with Egypt and Jordan. How many times has Israel attacked them since their peace accords? The palestinians could have the same. they dont want it.
I thought of another one Israel screwed up with; the bombing of the kids on that beach. I've never seen any credible reason for that attack to have been implemented. These events only hurt Israel, because even though they are few and far between (the fishermen story is 4 yrs old), the media will focus on them like a laser. They must do a better job of making their military leaders know better.

And again, if the palestinians would rid themselves of hamas, they would have peace. The choice is, and always has been, theirs.

[intaglio]

64. Yes, but Amnesty is not as prejudiced as you are

Like me they admit that Hamas does wrong and they accuse Israel of being similarly culpable

If you want to deny aggression feel free, I'm sure that the Russians and the British denied their aggression against the Finns and the Zulus respectively. What about the invasion of Lebanon? All this shows Israel acts as the aggressor.

Hannibal Doctrine has happened twice in the recent conflict but has been in place for several years. The infrequency of its use does not in any way detract from the fact that it exists and that it kills Israeli soldiers (and innocent civilians as well - but that does not matter to the Israelis)

And in all your pitiable whining and vile special pleading you have forgotten to actually condemn Israel.

Essentially you are a bigot; unable to condemn acts that, when carried out by the party you loathe, are despicable but in your mind are somehow excusable when committed by the party you so uncritically favour. This is more especially disgusting as the crimes committed by Israel have far greater scale than those carried out by Hamas.

[7962]

65. No, I did condemn their bad acts; even mentioned one that you didnt.

But Amnesty Intl saying they cant find any proof of human shields is laughable. All they had to do was look at Youtube and see the speeches for themselves or read the statements of those doing exactly that.
It takes two for peace. The palestinians will have peace when they want it. Put the onus on Israel and see how they respond. But they wont do it. Until they WANT a change in the way they live and the violence they espouse, they will get more of the same. Too bad for them.

[intaglio]

66. Ah yes! the famous You Tube clip

that was filmed in Syria and you forgot the crudely photoshopped manual.

Oddly Amnesty could easily find evidence of Israeli use of human shields.

[7962]

67. Yes, they accuse Israel of using palestinians as shields, taking the word of the palestinians

We know THEY never lie! They have even been shown to fake injuries for cameras, as CNN found a couple yrs ago.
Here you have Israel telling them to leave
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/13/world/meast/mideast-tensions/
Here you have Hamas telling them to stay in the CURRENT conflict, like that matters. They've been telling the same story for years.

[Turbineguy]

6. That would

really scare the shit out of Hamas.

They need high unemployment for recruiting.

[hack89]

7. They would sneak some suicide bombers into Israel

and make Israel slam that door shut.

[intaglio]

13. So Israel is controlled by the actions of Hamas

Israel is forced into committing war crimes by Hamas. The IDF are forced to shoot to injure (maim) on the West Bank by Hamas. Palestinians forced Israel to have a state sponsored assassination squad and held a gun to the head of Israeli scientists who developed the nuclear weapons at Dimona.

If your theory holds true then it was Palestinians who forced the IDF to permit and cover up the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.

Do you wear cheerleaders garments like Dubyas as you type your propaganda? Is-ay-el, Is-ray-el, refugees are nasty and they smell?

[hack89]

14. Israel will not tolerate suicide bombers

I understand to you that bombing buses and restaurants is ok and Israel should simply accept them as part of living with Hamas. For some reason Israelis feel different. For the life of me I can't figure out why.

[intaglio]

21. And the Palestinians will not tolerate the inhuman appression that Israel inflicts upon Gaza

And please do not put words into my mouth, I regard all such violence as inexcusable. On the other hand, however, you seem to support unmoderated attacks on civilians and meaningless bombardments of vacated missile firing sites. You also seem happy that the IDF should continue to murder Israeli prisoners of war.

[hack89]

24. No. I just support the blockade. And the wall

separation from the Palestinians is what is needed. Israel should withdraw from the West Bank and the Palestinians to their own devices.

[christx30]

17. If I were in a war, I would shoot to injure.

You shoot to kill, and your enemy has a dead buddy, you have one less enemy to deal with. You shoot to injure, and your enemy has a wounded buddy he has to take off the battlefield to get treatment. You've removed 2 or more enemies with that one shot. That's pretty basic stuff there.

[intaglio]

36. Errr, the Israelis are not at war with the Palestinians on the West Bank

They are the occupying power.

[Sunlei]

62. yes, they would. Heres an Israeli soldiers 'gopro' in gaza, look at all the suicide vests they find.

http://net.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=1074187

(only video on the page is the soldiers go-pro footage)

[Ash_F]

45. HAHAHA! Where do you keep getting this stuff?

Palestinians kept in cages before work

You never really commented on the last videos/articles I sent you.

[hack89]

46. We are talking about Gaza not the West Bank.

and we are talking about before the wall went up to stop suicide bombers.

Double fail.

[Ash_F]

47. Please explain in detail how you would like to be caged for hours before work.

Are you pro putting human beings in cages to be herded around for low-wage labor like chattel?

That is a 'fail'.

[hack89]

48. What does that have to do with Gaza before 2006?

stop diverting the conversation. We are talking about before the suicide bombers, not after.

[Ash_F]

49. Racial discrimination in labor, education, property rights, ect. ect. existed long before 2006.

You did not answer how you would like to be caged for hours, unpaid, before going to work your low-paid menial job.

[hack89]

50. It would suck. It is also irrelevant to this sub thread

which is before the suicide bombers, the people from Gaza routinely commuted to decent jobs in Israel.

[Ash_F]

51. That is not true and you are ridiculous.

If anything, living conditions have been 'better'(still in cages) in the less crowded West Bank and that is why there has been less rebellion in that area recently.

[hack89]

52. 80,000 West Bank Palestinians work in Israel - West Bank unemployment is half of Gaza's

It seems that the government itself has realized that it should open the gates to a larger number of Palestinians seeking work in Israel. Just a few days ago, the government granted entry permits to 5,000 Palestinian construction workers from the West Bank. (The entry of workers from Gaza to Israel has been banned since 2006.)

Some 80,000 Palestinians are currently working in Israel; about 60,000 of them have lawful work permits, which are limited to four sectors — construction, agriculture, industry and services.

The unemployment rate in the West Bank has increased recently to 17%, bringing the number of unemployed up to roughly 125,000. (In Gaza, the number of unemployed is twice as large.) Employment in Israel is all the more attractive for the Palestinians as the average salary of a Palestinian worker in Israel is at least double the average salary offered by [Palestinian] employers in the West Bank

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/business/2012/10/the-return-of-the-palestinian-wo.html##ixzz3AOgB6OuD

[Ash_F]

53. Yes. Life is not good on reservations.

You are almost getting it.

[hack89]

54. The people of Gaza lost a lot when they elected Hamas

Hopefully one day that can be rectified and they can work in Israel again.

[Sunlei]

61. yes, just yesterday journalists interviewed pals who returned to the wreckage of their homes.

The Pals are not allowed to criticize their gov, Hamas. Several mentioned they missed their jobs in Israel and all they saw as a future was, in another 3 years another Hamas'war'. Hamas probably will not continue as their 'Government'.

[samsingh]

8. letting hamas capture an Israeli soldier is not acceptable and prisioners

are not treated well my the islamists

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Better to kill a hundred innocents and the captured soldier? That is fucked up.

Criminally fucked up.

War crimes fucked up.

And Mr. Shalit seemed to survive his POWhood okay.

[samsingh]

11. not at all. but would you let your soldiers be captured

if you knew they were going to be tortured and butchered?

[7962]

16. Your common sense is useless to many here.

[Marrah_G]

18. The only alternative is to blow up 100 innocent people and make the rest refugees?

[azurnoir]

37. you mean just like Gilad Shalit was tortured and butchered?

oh wait..........

[samsingh]

44. that's why i'm fervently against the bush regime crimes

[intaglio]

22. So the murder of Israeli troops is OK in your mind

as long as it is carried out by the IDF. Nice way to show the moral inferiority of the IDF