Russian military vehicles enter Ukraine as aid convoy stops short of border

[Bosonic]

Source: The Guardian

The white trucks of humanitarian aid rumbled through Russia in a convoy stretching for miles, moving slowly southwards on the M4 highway, amid a landscape of fertile fields and Ladas stopped at the roadside – their boots overflowing with watermelons for sale.

But, while the white trucks came to a halt well short of Ukraine's border, a different Russian convoy did cross into Ukrainian territory late on Thursday evening.

The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk.

After pausing by the side of the road until nightfall, the convoy crossed into Ukrainian territory, using a rough dirt track and clearly crossing through a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border. Armed men were visible in the gloom by the border fence as the column moved into Ukraine. Kiev has lost control of its side of the border in this area.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border

[ballyhoo]

1. Here we go.

[LloydS of New London]

8. "Vera! Vera! What has become of you?"

[ballyhoo]

12. LOL

[blm]

2. Putin's as shameless as they come. No wonder RWers love him.

No conscience. No soul. He must be the Russian side of the Bush Family.

[zeemike]

3. Nope, the right wing does not love him.

But they might if they know the left hates him.
Don't you see how that works?
Well I guess you do, sense you used the -right wing love of putin- reasoning.

[blm]

6. Every TeaPartier I battle posts proPutin almost daily since before Olympics

when he made it acceptable to target gays all over Russia. He knew EXACTLY how to get the majority of bigots on his side before he started advancing into the nations he wanted to annex.

Straight from Bush's playbook. Nail down your religious base and they'll stick with you and defend you no matter what.

The tactic is blatant.

[TT_Progress]

9. Actually, liberals are very split on this as well

Just go to commondreams.org, a very progressive site, The Nation, Counterpunch, Dissidentvoice, Antiwar, asiantimes, DemocracyNow, just to name a few.

The political spectrum is not simply two sided, it is actually 4 sided. So you can have liberals with very different ideas of how to conduct war and peace and along lines like the value of "propaganda" etc, and you see the same in the conservative side.

Add in the complexity and all the spin of the modern age and a subject like this can get quite contentious even when involving liberals (us) who otherwise agree on the majority of things.

Check out the political compass which does a fairly good job of describing it than I can.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

[LiberalLovinLug]

11. There is no split among liberals

That site is bogus. No one in contemporary society who associates themselves as "liberal" or "left" would ever support Stalin.
And Putin is even more rightwing and corporatist (Russian) than Stalin ever was. I don't know of ANY fellow liberal that backs Putin. From Pussy Riot's incarceration, the anti-gay laws, his military adventures, corruption, jailed opposition leaders, jailed or dead journalists.....there is NOTHING that a contemporary left leaning person would agree with.

[TT_Progress]

19. OK, I have to ask for clarification here

Which site is bogus and supporting any of the things you said?

Commondreams is a stalin loving anti gay site? Or did you mean Democracy Now?

And by the by, the inconvenient truth is Poroshenko is a Christian Fundamentalist. The Ukraine PM was a Fundamentalist minister. And pretty much the entire coallation in power in Ukraine now are also right wingers.

Ukraine and Russia are virtually the same in regards to Gay rights and the new government in Ukraine was actually a step back.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117170/lgbt-rights-sidelined-after-ukrainian-revolution

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2014/may/-sp-gay-rights-world-lesbian-bisexual-transgender

Ukraine is actually even more anti-semetic than Russia as are a number of Eastern European countries

http://global100.adl.org/#map/eeurope

[LiberalLovinLug]

26. Red Herring

The site I said was bogus was in the actual post I was replying to...(go figure).

The one with the chart, that has been used for decades now as a way to excuse the excessive brutality of the history of right wing, pro-wealthy, corrupt governments. The old "they do it too" card. (If they have Hitler, well we have Stalin) Except that is bullshit. There may have been support back in the late 40's and 50's in the international Communist groups that sprang up at that time, and they agreed more with Marx's ideals than anything else. Years later when the full extent of Stalin's handiwork came out, he was rightly rejected by any true left leaning person of social conscience.

You said "Actually, liberals are very split on this as well", implying that liberals are split on those that support Putin and those that don't, if I can assume you were discussing the OP. And I gathered that then using that chart you were categorizing Putin with Stalin, (presumably and simply because they are both Russian leaders) and then showing via this tired old irrelevant chart, that many "liberals" must and do support Putin. Which I vehemently disagree with.

And I said nothing about denying how right wing and homophobic Poroshenko is. Where did you get that? We don't have to choose one or the other. Yes its too bad that Ukraine had no real choices and voted in such a right wing asshole. Its not much change from who they kicked out, basically. I lament Australia's new Con government, my own Canadian Con PM, the UK is under the Cons right now. This sucks, but while regrettable, these election setbacks pale to Putin flexing his fascist muscles and stealing land and invading a sovereign nation.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone on Democracy Now or Common Dreams or DU that supports Putin.

[blm]

16. Horsesh!t - I am not one who swallows propaganda from anyone.

I don't care who is selling BS - no sale.

Selli it some one who doesn't pay attention.

[snooper2]

24. those aren't liberals those are far left loons that are half libertarian anyway

They even give Ron Paul a little love now and then

[zeemike]

10. They use him just as you use him.

To chase people into an opinion and judgment of good and evil...them to judge liberals as evil and you to judge Putin as evil and other democrats that don't judge him as evil as supporting the teabaggers.
And your reasons are I am sure nobel, but it makes us look just as bad as them when we try to heard people with fear and loathing.
And that is my opinion.

Both things work to divide.

[blm]

17. Not buying the 'makes us look bad' BS, either. I saw what Putin was doing early on.

It was straight from Bush's playbook.

I didn't need to hear BS analysis.

[pampango]

13. The far-right in Europe certainly loves Putin. The right in the US is more split.

Putin could be a winner in European parliamentary vote if far right gains ground

When voters across Europe go to the polls this week to elect a new parliament, far-right parties are expected to be among the winners. But one of the election’s biggest beneficiaries could be a man whose name isn’t on the ballot: Vladimir Putin.

Even as mainstream European leaders sputter their condemnation of Russian aggression, voters appear poised to reward parties that make no secret of their fawning admiration for the way the Russian leader has defied the West and dismembered Ukraine. And indeed, the Russian media has begun to do just that, highlighting far-right leaders as the legitimate representatives of Europe. Those leaders, in turn, have eagerly embraced their moment in the Russian spotlight.

As pro-Russian forces wreaked havoc in eastern Ukraine last month, the head of France’s far-right National Front was in Moscow telling reporters that “a Cold War on Russia has been declared in the European Union." Nigel Farage, leader of the U.K. Independence Party and a frequent guest on the pro-Kremlin television network RT, has cited Putin as the foreign leader he most admires and asserted on national television that the 28-member E.U. has “blood on its hands” for its handling of Ukraine.

While Europe’s far-right parties differ in many respects, they share a desire to weaken the influence of the Brussels-based E.U. and “to pursue a similarly nationalist and authoritarian line” to the one embraced by Putin, according to Hajo Funke, a German political analyst and expert on right-wing extremism. Indeed, in many respects, Putin is an ideological soul mate. He rails against Western decadence and liberalism and speaks in favor of an orthodox and conservative nationalism that rejects gay rights and commands adherence to traditional values.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-could-be-a-winner-in-european-parliamentary-vote-if-far-right-gains-ground/2014/05/18/4de276e9-9ee3-4366-9102-81e91e03f182_story.html

The American right is more split. The religious fundamentalists love the fact that Putin "rejects gay rights and commands adherence to traditional values."

The more neo-con right hates Putin even though he shares many of their traits. They are hyper-nationalists (like Putin) but the latter plays for the wrong "team" so they hate him.

[zeemike]

14. Well I am not swayed by what the right wing does or does not believe.

And when I see the concerted effort to demonize him or anyone red flags goes of in my mind.
And that is a right wing tactic, so when I see the left doing it I don't care for that at all and say we are becoming like the right wingers...at least some are.

I am just tired of being played...so forgive me if I don't join in the hate Putin fest...it reminds me too much of the Bush years and all the demons he identified in his axis of evil crap.

[blm]

18. LOL - It's Putin FOLLOWING Bush's playbook.

Sory, zeem, but, I think your capacity to 'analyze' Putin is not at all what you seem to think it is.

[zeemike]

20. Well that is the point I am making.

I am not trying to analyze Putin, you are when you say he has a black soul...now how would you know that?...you only know what the press feeds you...and right now they feed you demon food.
Just like all the other countries we want to have conflict with.

Our president is at 40% approval, Putin is at 80%...that means Putin is serving the Russian needs and Obama is not serving ours...so why are we throwing stones?

[blm]

21. Yeah - Obama should make a great show of serving the needs of bigots

and then he could be as popular as Putin. Bush went up to 90% - was he serving the country's needs or did the US media prop him up?

[zeemike]

22. Well first of all you don't have a clue what the Russian people need.

And neither do I...all your opinions are shaped by the media. just like me and most of the people here...the difference is that you believe all the shit you want to believe and I don't believe any of it.
It would be great if we could talk to them and find out what there needs are, and perhaps then we would be able to know what their needs are, but we don't.
And in that ignorance we demonetize them as bigots or other things because the media wants us to do it, not because it is the truth. Wants it because there is big money in war and conflict, and a chance to manipulate the minds of America like they did to get Bush high approval after 911.

Sorry I am not falling in line...won't fall in line...and refuse to pass judgment on people that live in a land thousands of miles away, which I know little of, based on the propaganda the media feeds us.

[blm]

23. Baloney - I'm one of the biggest media skeptics here. I suppose Pussy Riot threw

themselves in jail. I suppose that the appeal to church leaders and the open season on gays were mere coincidence. I suppose Russia media propping up Putin 24/7 doesn't sound like a familiar tactic to you, but, it does to me. I watched this redo when Bush was benefitting from it.

You should go hang at TeaParty sites - they enjoy sharing their Putin photos and marveling over his 'leadership'.

[zeemike]

25. I know all about what the Tea Party says.

In fact I might well be considered an expert on the subject because I have had a 20 year relationship with one of the best right wing spamers on the face of the earth...on average he sends me 10 posts a day...from every right wing site you can think of...I have thousands of them on my hard drive right now.
I know more about your enemies than your average bear...assuming they are your enimies....there I went there just like you, suggesting in a subtle way that you might be right.

I suppose Russia media propping up Putin 24/7 doesn't sound like a familiar tactic to you, but, it does to me

So you agree that the US media does the same?...and they are now telling you the truth about this only?...why can we only question them and not us?

[TT_Progress]

4. Needs verification: The other reporter said it was a "checkpoint" and was vague

I have been following the Guardian and Shawn Walker openly carries bias; so when he mentioned the Telegraph reporter I looked at their version which is a little bit different.

Good journalism would at least return in the morning (maybe with OSCE?) and see what and where the checkpoint is in relation to the border.

"While it was not immediately clear whether all of that convoy crossed the border, The Telegraph did see a substantial number of vehicles pass through check point manned by gunmen after shadowing the convoy down narrow country lanes near the frontier. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11035401/Russian-armoured-vehicles-and-military-trucks-cross-border-into-Ukraine.html

[reorg]

5. The Ukrainians have threatened to shoot at the convoi

if their demands, whatever they may currently be (as opposed to yesterday and maybe tomorrow) are not met.

So, I'm not suprised if the Russians take that threat seriously and intend to protect themselves.

[TT_Progress]

7. At this point I would not be surprised if indeed the situation is escalating

all the more important for verification.

I know it is hard for (some of )our western minds to understand, but Russians would see "game playing" with aid for what they see as a very serious humanitarian crisis as extremely provocative.

Anything is possible. Let's hope everyone keeps their cool and the press backs a bit from the hysteria producing stuff.

[Igel]

15. Earlier today the Ukr forces claimed to have taken Novosvetlovka.

This is on the road that leads from the border crossings that are under LPR control to Luhans'k.

It was the last reasonable way to resupply Luhans'k, to get this "humanitarian convoy" in. If there's a way from the Izvaryne border crossing (the closest one to where this "humanitarian convoy" crossed) left to get to Luhans'k it's using small back roads. That convoy won't make it that way. So if the Russians want to get their "aid" to the rebels they will have to do what Russian "peacekeepers" usually do: They pick a side that they like and in the interests of "peace" impose victory for that side. Of course, they go in claiming to be impartial, but since they already favor one side that immediately puts down its weapons or is taken on as auxiliary to the peacekeepers, there's only one side left fighting.

This isn't the kind of peacekeeping the UN does, where at most it'll put down the occasional gunman. But usually just relies on moral authority. Knowing it has none, Russia uses AKs and Grad or Hurricane rocket launchers instead.

As soon as Novosvetlovka was captured, the immediate problem was, "Without official Ukr and Red Cross sanction, how does the Russian military aide convoy get through?" The answer was either it doesn't, the Russians hope that the rebels re-establish supply lines, or the Russians step in.

While one reporter said one truck contained sleeping bags, and another said it contained buckwheat groats, other sources say they observed "weapons and ammunition" and a fourth pointed out a screen-capture of some sort of ventiliation holes in a KamAZ truck.

Since all pretense of cooperating with anybody has fallen by the way--either the OSCE, ICRC, Ukr government, or anybody else has much of a clue what's in the trucks and what the schedule or route for them is, it's pretty naive to think that they really are just humanitarian aid. (I speculated yesterday in response to the Time article saying that Putin called the West's bluff that it was the other way around--the West called Putin's bluff and Lavrov's attempt to browbeat Ukraine into meeting Russia's conditions.)

The armored convoy that was seen matches other reports from other nights; it's a bit bigger, but the news of having pretty much both Donets'k and Luhans'k surrounded can't be good. Strelkov-Girkin stepped down today; Bolotov, the top dog in the LPR also "retired" in the last 48 hours.


If somebody wants fun, they should check out what's up between Zhirinovsky, the hardline Comm. Part. boss and Poland, and the media dust-up around that. The final comment was that if there's a war and Poland and the Baltics are wiped off the map, well, they brought it on themselves by joining NATO and hosting NATO bases. The ultimate "we are above morality and humanistic principles"--not just international law or treaties--that is the ultimate and most virulent form of Russian nationalism.