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Omaha Steve

(99,628 posts)
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 03:20 PM Apr 2012

Blacks have trouble clearing cervical cancer virus

Source: AP-Excite

By MARILYNN MARCHIONE

CHICAGO (AP) - Provocative new research might help explain why black women are so much more likely than whites to develop and die from cervical cancer: They seem to have more trouble clearing HPV, the virus that causes the disease.

Doctors have long thought that less access to screening and follow-up health care were the reasons black women are 40 percent more likely to develop cervical cancer and twice as likely to die from it. The new study involving young college women suggests there might be a biological explanation for the racial disparity, too.

If further study confirms this novel finding, it would make the HPV vaccine even more important for black women, said Worta McCaskill-Stevens, a prevention specialist at the National Cancer Institute. The vaccine is recommended for all girls starting at age 11.

The study was presented Sunday at an American Association for Cancer Research conference in Chicago.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20120401/D9TS84J81.html

46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Blacks have trouble clearing cervical cancer virus (Original Post) Omaha Steve Apr 2012 OP
Who are Blacks? The Rugby Team? HipChick Apr 2012 #1
Ask the AP. They wrote the headline. Iris Apr 2012 #2
In the UK dipsydoodle Apr 2012 #3
It's probably the best term to use muriel_volestrangler Apr 2012 #5
"African-American" is not a synonym for "black". Spider Jerusalem Apr 2012 #6
Not all Black people live in America via Africa HotRodTuna Apr 2012 #8
Interesting. Nt xchrom Apr 2012 #4
Sex With Neanderthals: The Ultimate Immunity Boost FarCenter Apr 2012 #7
All the more reason for young people to get the HPV vaccine NickB79 Apr 2012 #9
You may want to read more before you sign your kid up for the vaccine. davsand Apr 2012 #10
I have read extensively about the HPV vaccine NickB79 Apr 2012 #11
Did you bother to READ those articles or did you dismiss them out of hand? davsand Apr 2012 #12
Relying on VAERS, are we? Watch out you don't turn into the Incredible Hulk NickB79 Apr 2012 #43
Blacks should be cautious about calls for mass inoculations. MD20 Apr 2012 #13
Technically, there are no "pure" white or black genes... antigone382 Apr 2012 #21
Race is horseshit, and therefore racial correlations are horseshit too. bemildred Apr 2012 #14
Ever heard of a caucasian getting sickle cell anemia? Beacool Apr 2012 #15
"Caucasian" is also horseshit. bemildred Apr 2012 #16
I'm not going to argue. Beacool Apr 2012 #18
OK. nt bemildred Apr 2012 #24
Look, it's like thinking if a dog has brown hair, then you know something about it's metabolism. bemildred Apr 2012 #17
If those genetic markers were not evenly distributed in all types of dogs hack89 Apr 2012 #20
Yeah, I know about that, but those are just statistical correlations. bemildred Apr 2012 #22
If I was a public health official hack89 Apr 2012 #27
The problem is that populations don't develop diseases. bemildred Apr 2012 #30
Multifactorial polygenic diseases hack89 Apr 2012 #32
Which still happens only to individuals. bemildred Apr 2012 #33
But two individuals from seperate groups may require different treatments for the same disease. hack89 Apr 2012 #35
I really think we have wrung all the juice out of this for the moment. bemildred Apr 2012 #38
Just think in terms of genetic groups and it is less of an issue. hack89 Apr 2012 #40
That's really all I'm saying, just leave race out of it. bemildred Apr 2012 #41
A very rational position... rayofreason Apr 2012 #42
Genetics determines lots of things. bemildred Apr 2012 #34
Yes they do. hack89 Apr 2012 #36
Here is the argument I'm making: bemildred Apr 2012 #39
Humans are divided into numerous distinct genetic groups called haplogroups. hack89 Apr 2012 #19
Right, and we've been mixing them all together rapidly for the last 500 years. bemildred Apr 2012 #23
Wrong hack89 Apr 2012 #25
A couple of centuries HAVE undone millions of years of evolution already. bemildred Apr 2012 #26
Except genetically halogroups are still there hack89 Apr 2012 #28
There is no evidence that any of those events have impacted the human genome. nt hack89 Apr 2012 #29
Right. bemildred Apr 2012 #31
I wouldn't say millions of years, more like about 100 to 50 thousand years ago when humans... Humanist_Activist Apr 2012 #37
Interesting thread. After a review I tend to agree with Liber-AL Apr 2012 #44
Hey. bemildred Apr 2012 #45
YW Liber-AL Apr 2012 #46

muriel_volestrangler

(101,314 posts)
5. It's probably the best term to use
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 04:23 PM
Apr 2012

It applies worldwide, so "African Americans" wouldn't be correct. "Sub-Saharan Africans" might make people think it's people living in those countries now, rather than anyone with significant ancestry from there.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
6. "African-American" is not a synonym for "black".
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 04:41 PM
Apr 2012

Theirry Henry and Lewis Hamilton are black; neither is African-American.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
7. Sex With Neanderthals: The Ultimate Immunity Boost
Sun Apr 1, 2012, 04:55 PM
Apr 2012
Another key contributor to a good immune system is good genes.

Lately, researchers have been asking, Where did these "good genes" come from? The answer: sex with Neanderthals. Well, to be more accurate: ancient interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans gave modern Homo sapiens the ability to fight certain diseases. The journal article, published in Science, is entitled "The Shaping of Modern Human Immune Systems by Multiregional Admixture with Archaic Humans."

...
Based on DNA analysis, Neanderthals and Denisovans had very similar HLA genes. Remarkably, present-day East Asians owe 70-95% of their HLA genes to interbreeding with Denisovans. Present-day Europeans owe roughly half of their HLA genes to interbreeding with Neanderthals. Present-day Africans owe roughly 6% of their HLA to Neanderthals/Denisovans, probably via later generations of hominids who travelled back to Africa. (Sidenote: it is likely that present-day Africans owe some of their immune system to interbreeding with non-Neanderthal/Denisovan early hominid species.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/priya-malhotra/sex-with-neanderthals-the_b_954883.html


Immune system differences are not surprising.

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
9. All the more reason for young people to get the HPV vaccine
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 10:10 AM
Apr 2012

As if the existing ones weren't good enough.

davsand

(13,421 posts)
10. You may want to read more before you sign your kid up for the vaccine.
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 02:27 PM
Apr 2012

I am not wildly "anti vaccine"--in fact from a public health perspective vaccinations make a lot of sense in most cases. However, I do not think I want to run right out and get my daughter vaccinated with Gardasil. There's a lot of question remaining about safety and usefulness for that particular product.

What follows is a link to Mercola's website. I'll grant you that I don't agree with him 100% of the time, but he does do a good job of putting up health articles from all over the world. As a reader, you can cross check his sources if you like, and it does allow you to make some decisions with a bit more information than you might have had otherwise.

Happy reading!


http://search.mercola.com/search/pages/results.aspx?k=gardasil




Laura

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
11. I have read extensively about the HPV vaccine
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 03:48 PM
Apr 2012

Except, rather than rely on quack websites like Mercola, I read the peer-reviewed studies that are published in reputable scientific journals. Mercola has been shown over and over again to post unsubstantiated garbage rather than actual science, but that's what you'd expect since it is a website devoted to selling homeopathic remedies and multivitamins rather than real medicine.

I have a 2-yr old daughter; she will be vaccinated against HPV.

davsand

(13,421 posts)
12. Did you bother to READ those articles or did you dismiss them out of hand?
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 10:48 PM
Apr 2012

"More than two dozen women and girls died in 2008 after receiving Gardasil injections. According to a press release issued by Judicial Watch, there have been a total of 47 deaths linked to Gardasil since it was brought to market in 2006.

Gardasil is a vaccination that prevents some forms of the Human Papillomavirus (HPV). Gardasil has been controversial because of attempts by drug manufacturer Merck to make it mandatory, and because of continuing questions about its safety.

Judicial Watch says it has obtained records from the FDA documenting 28 deaths in 2008 associated with Gardasil, up from 19 deaths in 2007. According to the group, the FDA documented 6,723 "adverse events" related to Gardasil in 2008, of which 1,061 were considered "serious," and 142 considered "life threatening."

Sources:

YourLawyer.com June 25, 2009"

------------------------

As of September 28, 2010, the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) has more than 18,000 Gardasil-related adverse events listed in it, including at least 65 deaths.

-----------------------

For example, a rough comparison of Gardasil and Menactra (a vaccine against meningitis) adverse event reports to VAERS through November 30, 2008 revealed that:
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least twice as many emergency room visit reports; 4 times more death reports; 5 times more "did not recover" reports; and 7 times more "disabled" reports.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with all of the reports of blood clots. All 23 reports of blood clots following Gardasil occurred when Gardasil was given alone without any other vaccines.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 4 times as many cardiac arrest reports. All 9 reports of cardiac arrest following Gardasil occurred when Gardasil was given alone without any other vaccines.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 6 times as many fainting reports and at least 3 times as many syncope reports.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 4 times as many lupus reports. 27 reports of lupus following Gardasil occurred when Gardasil was given alone.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 15 times as many stroke reports. 16 reports of stroke following Gardasil occurred when Gardasil was given alone.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 3 times as many syncope reports.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 33 times as many thrombosis reports. 34 reports of thrombosis following Gardasil occurred when Gardasil was given alone.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 5 times as many sasculitis reports. 11 reports of vasculitis following Gardasil occurred when Gardasiil was given alone.
•Compared to Menactra, receipt of Gardasil is associated with at least 30 times as many rechallenge reports, which involve a worsening of symptoms experienced after previous receipt of Gardasil.

What's disturbing about this is that these reports in all likelihood are just the tip of the iceberg because most physicians are making their reports to Merck, rather than to VAERS, and Merck is forwarding such poor quality information to VAERS that the CDC and FDA can't follow up on the majority of reports that Merck makes.

As reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association in August 2009, Merck made 68 percent of the reports to VAERS and 89 percent of them had information that was too insufficient to review!
------------

Not exactly pushing vitamins, IMO.

Do as you wish with your child and I will too.


Laura

NickB79

(19,236 posts)
43. Relying on VAERS, are we? Watch out you don't turn into the Incredible Hulk
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 12:51 AM
Apr 2012
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/how_vaccine_litigation_distorts_the_vaer.php

Unfortunately, the VAERS database is highly unreliable. The reason is that anyone can submit a report to it, and no one actually verifies the accuracy of the report. Indeed, James Laidler once tested the system by submitting a report that the influenza virus had turned him into The Incredible Hulk. The report was accepted and duly entered into the database. This report was so out of the ordinary that a representative actually contacted him and, amazingly, asked his permission to remove the report from the database (proving that it's not easy being green). If Laidler had not given it, the report of an adverse reaction in which the flu vaccine turned a man into a huge, immensely powerful green monster would still be in VAERS. Now, via Kathleen Seidel, who alerted me to this, comes more evidence of the corruption of the VAERS database. This evidence comes in the form of a study by Michael J. Goodman and James Nordin published in the most recent issue of the journal Pediatrics, in which the authors examine the question of how much of the seeming increase in autism related to vaccines reported to the VAERS database over the last several years might be related to litigation. Naturally, I couldn't resist downloading the complete article and reading it.


Anyone who relies heavily on VAERS rather than the peer-reviewed, published science shows just how little they know about how the scientific research community works.

BTW, I have a degree in biochemistry. I've wasted entire weekends reading the same misconceptions like those found in your post over the years, and despite all the evidence to the contrary it never seems to change. Funny that.
 

MD20

(123 posts)
13. Blacks should be cautious about calls for mass inoculations.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:43 AM
Apr 2012

When I noticed this report in the news I thought, Oh, here we go again...another stab at Black people that no one can really prove.

The central theme so prevalent in this type of "research" data is that American blacks are somehow genetically subpar. I cannot accept that premise. Genetic exchanges between Whites and Blacks have taken place for thousands of years but more recently, in the Americas, slavery has played a significant role in gene distribution among the two groups. Pondering that. one wonders what group of Blacks participated in the mentoned HPV study. I would think that, in the present genetic cloud, pure black genes would be hard to find.

Moreover, it has been circulated prominently in scientific circles that people of mixed genetic heritage are genetically stronger than either of the parent groups.

Black people are no more promiscuous than white people. Furthermore, the face of poverty in America in sheer numbers (not statistics) is White. Nevertheless, every negative report about black susceptibility to disease seems strategically issued to keep the White populace in a state of constant alarm concerning Blacks while ignoring the plight of the white poor.

I see cause for alarm because the pharmaceuticals are owned by the 1%. They have no feelings of jingoism or sensitivitiy for any of us and have proven it by allowing clandestine medical experiments to occur with alarmjing frequency throughout our history. Race wasn't an issue in many of the experiments but for some, there was extreme predjudice involved.

This post is NOT meant to be hurtful or harmful to anyone,,, it is just meant to remember the past. We don't want to keep repeating that past!

antigone382

(3,682 posts)
21. Technically, there are no "pure" white or black genes...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:36 PM
Apr 2012

Race is a social construct. When you take it down to the genetic level, there are as many average genetic variations between two people of the same race as there are between two people of different races; if you don't know the genes that code for skin color, hair texture, and various facial features that we use to determine ethnicity, it is impossible to classify people into genetic groups based on their DNA alone.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't certain health risks that are more prevalent among certain groups. For example, cystic fibrosis is much more common among white Europeans, while sickle-cell anemia is more common among people from sub-Saharan Africa or parts of India where malaria was particularly present, and Ashkenazi jews are more prone to Tay-Sachs disorder.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
14. Race is horseshit, and therefore racial correlations are horseshit too.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:02 AM
Apr 2012

Not doubt there is something interesting genetically behind this, but casting it to a racial context is, well, racist.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
15. Ever heard of a caucasian getting sickle cell anemia?
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:00 AM
Apr 2012

Last edited Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:18 PM - Edit history (2)

There are genetic markers that affect people of the same race. That's why when they search for bone marrow donors they specify the race of the donors that they need (based on the recipient's race).

It has nothing to do with racism.

Here's some info.

"Sickle-cell disease, usually presenting in childhood, occurs more commonly in people (or their descendants) from parts of tropical and sub-tropical regions where malaria is or was common. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene,[4] because in areas where malaria is common, there is a fitness benefit in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease, while not totally resistant, are more tolerant to the infection and thus show less severe symptoms when infected.[5]

The prevalence of the disease in the United States is approximately 1 in 5,000, mostly affecting Americans of Sub-Saharan African descent, according to the National Institutes of Health.[6] In the United States, about 1 out of 500 African-American children born will have sickle-cell anaemia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
16. "Caucasian" is also horseshit.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:53 AM
Apr 2012

There ain't no such thing, just people who have light skin. Genetics does not organize itself around skin color or any other surface characteristics.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
18. I'm not going to argue.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:14 PM
Apr 2012

I'm not in the medical field. I'm sure that someone who is can explain it better.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
17. Look, it's like thinking if a dog has brown hair, then you know something about it's metabolism.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:57 AM
Apr 2012

It's a ridiculous idea. If you have the genetic markers, you have the markers, if you don't, then you don't. It has nothing to do with your skin color.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. If those genetic markers were not evenly distributed in all types of dogs
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:28 PM
Apr 2012

then you could tell.

Humans don't have a uniform genetic makeup. As human populations spread out over the earth, different groups evolved differently as they experienced different adaptive pressures. And this extends well beyond skin color. Some good examples include:

1. Lactose tolerance. Wide variance across the world depending on whether populations depended on milk(horse or cow) for foods.

2. Sickle cell anemia - prevalent in populations with high incidences of malaria.

3. Hypertension - much more prevalent in dark skinned people. Salt retention in a high temperature environment is a beneficial adaptation as it prevents you from sweating away all your body's salt and dying.

You are right that race is a cultural concept. But it is not true to say that the color of someone's skin is not predictive of that person's genetic susceptibility to different diseases.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
22. Yeah, I know about that, but those are just statistical correlations.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:58 PM
Apr 2012

They don't mean diddle about any particular persons. If you are a particular person (I assume you are) then you have things or you don't. Do you want your medical care to be conditioned by your skin color, and the statistical properties of your race, or gender, or do you want it to be about who you really are?

If you have this issue with HPV, then you want it found, even if you are "white", and "probably" don't need that test.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
27. If I was a public health official
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:21 PM
Apr 2012

and I had to develop health care policies for a large number of people, then those "statistical correlations" are critically important. They will tell me the likelihood that a particular population will develop certain diseases. It would enable me to manage my resources in the most effective manner to benefit the largest number of people. Thus, if I was dealing with a majority AA population, I know I must allocate more resources to prevent and treat hypertension than I would if I was dealing with a population with few AA.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
30. The problem is that populations don't develop diseases.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:26 PM
Apr 2012

People do.

I'm not saying those correlations don't exist, or that we should ignore them, just that they are merely clues, they do not compel They are like the chance that your next card will be a ace, useful to know when you are betting, irrelevant when you want to be sure.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
32. Multifactorial polygenic diseases
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:35 PM
Apr 2012

the incident of certain disease varies considerably by race. You cannot argue that genetics is a significant determinant as to what kind of diseases you will get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health#Multifactorial_polygenic_diseases

So you have to look at each halogroup to determine how it differs from the others and why that difference is significant for each disease. If a given disease acts differently with a particular halogroup then you might have to have a unique treatment for that group. If 99 percent of that particular group happens to have dark skin then that means that people with dark skin will have to treated differently than people with lighter skin.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
33. Which still happens only to individuals.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:39 PM
Apr 2012

I know it's messy, that's another reason I think these sorts of stories are horseshit, because we don't really understand how genetics works worth a damn either; but I was avoiding bringing that up because I though it would be sort of a red-herring.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
35. But two individuals from seperate groups may require different treatments for the same disease.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:50 PM
Apr 2012

The disease may be more virulent with one group over another and therefore may be a more dangerous threat.

There is a legitimate reason to look at medicine from a racial basis - that is what the science supports.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
38. I really think we have wrung all the juice out of this for the moment.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:59 PM
Apr 2012

I do appreciate the civil way you have conducted yourself, and I apologize if I have annoyed you. It took me a long time to let go of the idea of race too, I don't know if I'll ever really be done with it.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
40. Just think in terms of genetic groups and it is less of an issue.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:27 PM
Apr 2012

removes all the cultural baggage the word "race" carries.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
41. That's really all I'm saying, just leave race out of it.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:32 PM
Apr 2012

And not because racism is bad, which it is, but because it is simple-minded horseshit, which it also is.

rayofreason

(2,259 posts)
42. A very rational position...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:54 PM
Apr 2012

...given that population variations can have significant effects on body chemistry, such as the lactose tolerance in adults you mentioned. And humans continue to evolve.

http://www.lurj.org/article.php/vol4n1/genome.xml

Race certainly does have a social context, but it also overlaps with populations that have different frequencies of specific alleles that might be relevant to things like disease and its treatment, especially if the treatment targets a specific biochemical pathway. Not to consider such issues that could disproportionately impact (negatively) a particular population could be seen as....well.... racist.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
34. Genetics determines lots of things.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:42 PM
Apr 2012

The problem is that surface characteristics don't tell you much about the genes of any particular person.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
36. Yes they do.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:53 PM
Apr 2012

it is absolutely certain that every AA is predominantly halogroup L. Conversely, no one of Chinese descent will be of halogroup L.

Each halogroup is genetically distinctive and each has unique susceptibility to certain diseases associated with it.

Surface characteristics tell you a hell of a lot about a persons genes.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
39. Here is the argument I'm making:
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:12 PM
Apr 2012


Lewontin's argument and criticism

In 1972 Richard Lewontin performed a FST statistical analysis using 17 markers including blood group proteins. His results were that the majority of genetic differences between humans, 85.4%, were found within a population, 8.3% of genetic differences were found between populations within a race, and only 6.3% was found to differentiate races which in the study were Caucasian, African, Mongoloid, South Asian Aborigines, Amerinds, Oceanians, and Australian Aborigines. Since then, other analyses have found FST values of 6%-10% between continental human groups, 5-15% between different populations occupying the same continent, and 75-85% within populations.[23][24][25][26] Lewontin's argument led a number of authors publishing in the 1990s and 2000s to follow Lewontin's verdict that race is biologically a meaningless concept.

While acknowledging the correctness of Lewontin's observation that racial groups are genetically homogeneous, geneticist A. W. F. Edwards in the paper "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" (2003) argued that the conclusion that racial groups can not be genetically distinguished from each other is incorrect. Edwards argued that when multiple allelles are taken into account genetic differences do tend to cluster in geographic patterns roughly corresponding to the groups commonly defined as races. This is because most of the information that distinguishes populations from each other is hidden in the correlation structure of allele frequencies, making it possible to highly reliably classify individuals using the mathematical techniques described above. Edwards argued that, even if the probability of misclassifying an individual based on a single genetic marker is as high as 30% (as Lewontin reported in 1972), the misclassification probability becomes close to zero if enough genetic markers are studied simultaneously. Edwards saw Lewontin's argument as being based mostly in a political stance that denies the existence biological difference in order to argue for social equality. [4]

Richard Dawkins (2005) agreed with Edwards' view, summarizing the argument against Lewontin as being, "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."[27]

Alan Templeton (2003) argued that in the nonhuman literature an FST of at least 25%-30% is a standard criterion for the identification of a subspecies.[24] John Goodrum has noted that Templeton incorrectly cited this figure from a 1997 article from Herpetological Review entitled “Subspecies and Classification".[28] The authors of that paper do not refer to Fst values. They are referring the 75 percent rule for subspecies.[29]

Henry Harpending (2002) has argued that the magnitude of human FST values imply that "kinship between two individuals of the same human population is equivalent to kinship between grandparent and grandchild or between half siblings. The widespread assertion that this is small and insignificant should be reexamined." [30]

Sarich and Miele (2004) have argued that estimates of genetic difference between individuals of different populations fail to take into account human diploidity. "The point is that we are diploid organisms, getting one set of chromosomes from one parent and a second from the other. To the extent that your mother and father are not especially closely related, then, those two sets of chromosomes will come close to being a random sample of the chromosomes in your population. And the sets present in some randomly chosen member of yours will also be about as different from your two sets as they are from one another. So how much of the variability will be distributed where? First is the 15 percent that is interpopulational. The other 85 percent will then split half and half (42.5 percent) between the intra- and interindividual within-population comparisons. The increase in variability in between-population comparisons is thus 15 percent against the 42.5 percent that is between-individual within-population. Thus, 15/42.5 is 32.5 percent, a much more impressive and, more important, more legitimate value than 15 percent."[31]

Anthropologists such as C. Loring Brace[32] and Jonathan Kaplan[33] and geneticist Joseph Graves,[34] have argued that while there it is certainly possible to find biological and genetic variation that corresponds roughly to the groupings normally defined as races, this is true for almost all geographically distinct populations. The cluster structure of the genetic data is therefore dependent on the initial hypotheses of the researcher and the populations sampled. When one samples continental groups the clusters become continental, if one had chosen other sampling patterns the clusters would be different. Weiss and Fullerton have noted that if one sampled only Icelanders, Mayans and Maoris, three distinct clusters would form and all other populations could be described as being composed of admixtures of Maori, Icelandic and Mayan genetic materials.[35] Kaplan therefore argues that seen in this way both Lewontin and Edwards are right in their arguments. He concludes that while racial groups are characterized by different allele frequencies, this does not mean that racial classification is a natural taxonomy of the human species, because multiple other genetic patterns can be found in human populations that crosscut racial distinctions. In this view racial groupings are social constructions that also have biological reality which is largely an artefact of how the category has been constructed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics#Race_and_population_genetic_structure

hack89

(39,171 posts)
19. Humans are divided into numerous distinct genetic groups called haplogroups.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 12:14 PM
Apr 2012

several of which are dominated by dark skinned peoples.

The L type consists of nearly all Africans.

The M type consists of:

M1- Ethiopian, Somali and Indian populations. Likely due to much gene flow between the Horn of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman), separated only by a narrow strait between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden.

CZ- Many Siberians; branch C- Some Amerindian; branch Z- Many Saami, some Korean, some North Chinese, some Central Asian populations.

D- Some Amerindians, many Siberians and northern East Asians

E- Malay, Borneo, Philippines, Taiwan aborigines, Papua New Guinea

G- Many Northeast Siberians, northern East Asians, and Central Asians

Q- Melanesian, Polynesian, New Guinean populations

The N type consists of:

A- Found in some Amerindians, Japanese, and Koreans

I- 10% frequency in Northern, Eastern Europe

S- Some Australian aborigines

W- Some Eastern Europeans, South Asians, and southern East Asians

X- Some Amerindians, Southern Siberians, Southwest Asians, and Southern Europeans

Y- Most Nivkhs and many Ainus; 1% in Southern Siberia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup#Groups_without_mutation_M168

So why the concept of race may not apply, skin color certainly does when determining genetic susceptibility to certain diseases - skin color is a prime indicator of what haplogroup you belong to.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
23. Right, and we've been mixing them all together rapidly for the last 500 years.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:01 PM
Apr 2012

One of the activities most popular in colonial regimes is making babies with the indigenous people.

They don't call the USA a "melting pot" for nothing.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
26. A couple of centuries HAVE undone millions of years of evolution already.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:20 PM
Apr 2012

We are right in the midst of a large, global, mass-extinction, also in the midst of rapid global climate change. Evolution can be quick with all that "weeding out" going on.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
28. Except genetically halogroups are still there
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:23 PM
Apr 2012

with no sign of them being merged into some super group.

This is scientific fact - you will have to present some actual studies if you still want to argue that humans can be group into distinct genetic groups.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
37. I wouldn't say millions of years, more like about 100 to 50 thousand years ago when humans...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:56 PM
Apr 2012

population began to expand and they spread to other parts of the world outside of Africa.

Otherwise your point still stands, and in fact, significant populations still haven't bred with each other yet, not to any great quantity.

 

Liber-AL

(71 posts)
44. Interesting thread. After a review I tend to agree with
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 08:12 AM
Apr 2012
bemildred. Her assessment is right in line with mine. Indeed, the USA is a genetic melting pot and has been for centuries. And this talk of "millions" of years in the development of specific haplogroupings seems nonsensical since all of those early hominid populations died out, leaving the world in the hands of Homo Sapiens Sapiens; who, BTW are thought to have emerged 280,000 years ago in East Africa.

Since ALL humans alive today are descendants of a mitochondrial Eve from that epochal population, it would appear that all of modern humanity started out with the same Haplogroup. I am reluctant to say "L," because I don't know what the environment of East Africa was 200,000 year ago. That factor is significant since environment is thought to be the catalyst in haplogroup mutations that deviated from the original (L?) groups as modern humans left Africa.

Complicating things further is the fact that there are two distinct sets of haplogroup markers:
one originating from a common Patrilineal ancestor and the other from the matrilineal side , each with a distinct
set of letters to denote degree of mutation. From the common ancestor's mTDNA haplogroup, thought to be L, all other matrilineal
haplogroups have been proven to be mutations

Using these haplogroupings to predict proclivity towards specific diseases in African Americans , though, may have disastrous effects since so many are of mixed genetic heritage.

As crazy as it might seem, White physicians don't seem to differentiate between near white-skinned Blacks and those who are very dark-skinned in making diagnoses and remedies. But even then, the dark skinned Black may not physically be the stereotypical genetic model used to treat ALL blacks. His ancestry may put him/her in a group consistent with that of a Native American or North European.

Perhaps, an awareness of this problem would be worthwhile in preventing medical mishaps due to race based medical procedures and prescriptions. And to make things worse, you get silly reports of "studies" like the one claiming "blacks" are more susceptible to HPV than whites. I guess bad news about Blacks sells better!
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