Obama: It’s time for Augusta golf club to admit women members

[kpete]

Source: The Hill

"His personal opinion is women should be admitted," White House press secretary Jay Carney said in a press briefing on Thursday .

The Augusta National Golf Club, where the Masters golf tournament began on Thursday morning, only accepts male members, and is considered sacred ground in the world of professional golf.


Carney said he spoke to Obama, an avid golfer, about the club's controversial rule, and the president expressed his opinion that women should be allowed to join.

"It's obviously up to the club to decide," Carney noted. "But his personal opinion is that women should be admitted to the club."



Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/220143-obama-men-only-golf-club-should-accept-female-members

---

he is going to wrinkle some feathers with this one,
peace, kpete

[MADem]

1. I agree with him. It's backassward thinking to discriminate in this day and age.

He was VERY careful to say that it's up to the membership and it's just his opinion, but when he's right, he's right--and he's right on this 'un.

[Bonduel]

74. I actually think this would be pretty easy for Romney to respond to.

I would give the exact same answer as Obama. I think they should admit women. Leave it up to the members. That doesn't mean they have to. This is an easy out for the republicans in my opinion if they were smart.

[Puzzledtraveller]

2. What about other exclusionary clubs?

Just asking for discussion sake.

[alp227]

4. The Masters Club isn't comparable with other such clubs like Alpha Phi Alpha or

the Latino Chamber of Commerce for instance.

[BadtotheboneBob]

7. How? Just asking...

[AngryAmish]

11. Augusta National Golf Club

Every year for the last 76 they hold an invitational called The Masters.

Besides, who says they have a policy of excluding women from membership?

[NoGOPZone]

14. Here's one article

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/04/living/augusta-national-ibm-ceo/?hpt=us_c2

[AngryAmish]

16. Article just assumes there are no women members or that there is a no woman policy

Let's look at the club bylaws and see what it says.

[NoGOPZone]

17. Here's another article with the same 'assumption'

if you can find the bylaws, go ahead and post them.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/03/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120403

[AngryAmish]

21. My point is you cannot find the bylaws

They keep these things private.

To be fair, I am being a bit obtuse. Unless she is already a member then ANGC does not have female members. If not a de jure ban then a de facto ban is in place. But by discussing this matter the President just ruined this woman's chances of joining for a long time.

[spooky3]

56. It is irrelevant (to nearly everyone except the RW appointees on the Supreme Ct) whether there is a

stated policy, when the practice is so obvious and consistent.

[MADem]

80. Actually, someone is selling a copy of the 79 bylaws online.

Bidding ends tomorrow-- http://www.greenjacketauctions.com/site/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=6934

That probably includes the charming "no non-Caucasian" clause that was in effect until 22 short years ago.

I'd bet money it's a 'de jure' ban, because private clubs can do that shit. Also, the Masters doesn't fall under the PGA rules about non-discrimination, so they've been able to get away with it.

The Masters is an independently run event that does not fall under the auspices of the PGA Tour. Still, Augusta National's compliance with the new standards is significant. Because of the Masters, one of golf's four major championships, the club has long been one of the nation's most visible bastions of all-white golf. No black player played in the tournament until Lee Elder in 1975. And until 1982, when the competitors were allowed for the first time to bring their regular tour caddies, all the caddies in the tournament were black.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/sports/augusta-national-admits-first-black-member.html


They will do what they want to do. Frankly, they make my skin crawl. They had to be boycotted and threatened with economic consequences before they changed their rules on admitting blacks. Maybe they need to be pushed and shoved once again--after all, they're taking a huge chunk of cash from corporations that owe their profits to both men and women--it's not like these corporations only take MALE money or do business with men.

That'd give Rushbo something new to whine about.

Even Mitt Romney agrees that they should admit women. It's past due.

[goclark]

99. I think he is calling attention to the issue

As of this moment is Romney still silent on the issue?


I bet he has a special clubhouse for his golf clubs and we won't discuss his Balls. I don't think he has any.

Ms. goclark

[MADem]

102. Romney agrees with Obama on this--for once.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0406/Obama-Romney-agree-All-male-Augusta-golf-club-should-allow-women-video

Obama, Romney agree: All-male Augusta golf club should allow women (+video)
Obama and Romney speak out for women at Augusta National golf club. The New York Times golf writer says she won't cover another Masters tournament until women become club members.


By Associated Press / April 6, 2012

......."Of course. I am not a member of Augusta. I don't know if I would qualify. My golf game is not that good," Romney said at a campaign stop in Pennsylvania. "If I could run Augusta, which isn't likely to happen, of course I'd have women."

[goclark]

105. Sounds like Mitt is trying to move more to the center

[MADem]

106. Shake, shake, shake,..... shake, shake, shake!

Shake your Etch-a-Sketch!!

Shake your Etch-a-Sketch!!!


It's DISCO MITT!!!

[NoGOPZone]

18. and here's one where the club chairman

discusses the policy.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/04/us/augusta-women-members/index.html

[cbayer]

19. From what I can see, they won't release their bylaws, but they clearly have a longstanding

rule which excludes female membership.

Just google it.

[MADem]

89. Every member gets a copy of the bylaws, in a cute little green booklet, every year.

That's how the media knows--members have shown them the booklet.

[MADem]

76. No women. It's a founding premise.

The reason this is in the news is because they are going to have to give a green jacket to a woman for the first time ever, as a consequence of corporate sponsorship.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125734/Obama-Mitt-Romney-rip-Augusta-National-Golf-Clubs-men-policy.html

Here's something they can agree on: Obama and Romney rip Augusta National Golf Club's 'men only' policy as politics gets mixed in debate




First lady: Ginny Rometty, the first female CEO of IBM,
hasn't been admitted to the club, even though her four
male predecessors have been

One of the club's longtime sponsors, IBM, has a new female CEO, Ginni Rometty, who was tapped for the post in October 2011.
The last four CEOs at IBM, all male, have been invited to be members.
In keeping with the club’s secretive traditions Augusta National chairman Billy Payne refused to provide a clear answer when asked repeatedly by the media yesterday, saying only that membership issues were not for public debate.
'Once again, that deals with a membership issue and I'm not going to answer it,' he told a news conference.

[MADem]

75. His language was very careful.

He offered a personal opinion, and was quick to stipulate that it is up to the membership.

Anyone can have an opinion about any exclusionary club--it doesn't mean the members of the club have to share that opinion.

[Ian David]

3. But then they'd have to bring all their vagina stuff and they'd vagina all over the place.

[DJ13]

5. Serious question

Would he have bothered saying this if the subject in question was an ordinary woman instead of a woman who is the CEO of IBM?

[JoePhilly]

8. The issue is all over the news this year specifically because ....

the new CEO of IBM is a woman, and IBM is a major sponsor of the Masters, AND ... Augusta tends to invite the CEOs of top companies to become members.

As I state in a post lower ... I think he's also tweaking Romney and Santorum, both have "woman issues". Obama's statement is rather tame actually ... "its his personal opinion that they should let women in, but its their choice." ... not exactly a scolding.

By doing so Obama opens a door for Romney ... Romney could make a much more forceful statement in an effort to pander to women calling on Augusta to immediately allow women as members. But that might not sit well with the big boys at Augusta. CReate a quandary for Mittens.

Santorum might freak out and claim that Obama supports lesbians by advocating that women play golf ... which would be awesome.

[cbayer]

10. Heard a story about this yesterday.

I guess they haven't yet decided whether to extend a membership to her as they traditionally do to the CEO's of their major sponsors.

It just never occurred to them that a woman could be the CEO of a major Fortune 500 country!

[Iliyah]

53. LOL

and Newt will claim Pres O hates men.

[coldbeer]

72. Corporations are People

but, what is a People? Noah Peopled the world.
They had corporations back then?

[MADem]

81. If corporations are people, they shouldn't be discriminating against other people on public airwaves

...IMO.

[JoePhilly]

6. Obama is daring Romney and Santorum to weigh in on this topic.

Now that Obama took the pro-woman stance on this ... Romney and Santorum will be asked their views.

If Romney is lucky, Santorum will blow a gasket over this, call Obama a "Government n****r" again, and then start screaming that Obama is trying to "advance the gay life style by advocating that women play golf".

Something to pray for!!

[MADem]

78. Romney has agreed with Obama already.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125734/Obama-Mitt-Romney-rip-Augusta-National-Golf-Clubs-men-policy.html

[emilyg]

9. Why is he commenting on this?

[shawn703]

13. Because the Republicans will need to respond too

And you know they will dig themselves further into their War on Women hole, for no other reason than they need to disagree with Obama.

[emilyg]

15. IMO - not presidential concern.

[Skinner]

20. Discrimination is not a presidential concern?

Please explain.

[AngryAmish]

23. There is discrimination and illegal discrimination

This is a private club. Just as certain people cannot be on DU - like freepers, et al. ANGC gets to choose it's own members.

[Skinner]

24. DU chooses its members based on their political ideology, not whether they have a penis.

There is a difference.

[AngryAmish]

25. A private club can choose it's members based on all sorts of silly qualifications

I can't be a member of the Justinian Society. Nor can I be a Girl Scout. I can never join the Daughter's of the American Revolution. I will always be on the outside looking in of an Orthodox Synague or Morman Temple.

All of these clubs discriminate. Just like DU does. This is what we do in a free society.

[Skinner]

26. Let's just bottom line this.

Set aside the question of whether it is legal.

Do you believe it is appropriate for a golf club to discriminate based on sex? A simple yes-or-no answer will suffice.

[pnwmom]

32. Obama was smart to take the moderate -- not progressive position -- that he did.

Now Romney, if he says anything, has to position himself to the right of Obama, alienating women once again.

[SlimJimmy]

92. I believe they are holding the same opinion on this issue.

Later, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, Obama's likely challenger in the fall, echoed the president's view, saying 'of course' he would allow women in 'if I could run Augusta'.

'Of course. I am not a member of Augusta. I don't know if I would qualify. My golf game is not that good,' Romney told reporters as he chatted with supporters after a campaign stop in Pennsylvania.

[AngryAmish]

33. It is not a club I would join (but let's face facts they ain't inviting me).

I worked at an all male golf club when I was a kid. It did not a place where the members actively plotted against women. It was a place where the first and foremost thing was playing golf at the highest level. The PGA told the club they had to change their all-male policy. The club said no and the Western Open went elsewhere after that.

The members like an all-male club because with women's members things tend to become a country club. Country clubs are not golf clubs. Country clubs have pools, gardens, tennis, a restaurant, social life and all that. The focus gets away from the golf. Dues go up. Also, the members of where I used to work liked the fact they could tell their wives they were off to the club and their wives did not suspicious.

So, is it appropriate? Since ANGC does not bar women from the facilities then they should let them be members. But it is up to them.

[mac56]

37. "pools, gardens, tennis, a restaurant, social life and all that."

Stereotyping much?

[AngryAmish]

38. Stereotyping against country clubs?

The stereotyping is in the sentence where I said that the fear is allowing women to join turns a golf club into a country club.

Is it stereotyping? Of course. But that is the fear, a valid one in my opinion.

[cbayer]

39. Wow. Do you realize that a lot of business takes place on golf courses and that

a lot of women are now in positions of power in business?

Your view of women is really stereotyped and out of date.

[AngryAmish]

42. 99.75% of golf courses allow women

A few do not. If a few guys want to have their own club this does not harm women.

[cbayer]

48. Wrong. It does harm women.

Do you think we should allow golf courses that exclude blacks? Gay men? People with disabilities? The Amish?

I mean, people have the right to discriminate so they can just be with people like them. Is that what you are saying?

[AngryAmish]

51. The short answer is there are many organizations that discriminate on all sorts of bases

Is the basis silly? Yes. But in a diverse society we allow private organizations to make their own rules. And we get to point out that we disagree with it.

So, should we allow discriminatory clubs? Yes.

Do I think it is a good idea? I do not.

on edit: I'm leaving work to go to my club, get drunk and watch the Masters and the end of the Cubs game and must end this back and forth. Cheerio!

[MADem]

88. What if the big meeting of the business you are engaged in is being held on the links at Augusta?

And you are a woman. As a woman, you are shut out of that meeting--you have no opportunity to compete to earn that business, because you aren't allowed to be present.

[joeglow3]

47. How do you feel about this scenario?

I am a CPA. Out of college, I worked in a Big 4 firm. The extent of my exposure outside of my cube was to take a leak during the day. I did not consort with any power brokers (neither did any other staff) and and was never involved in those decisions. However, our firm was a solid supporter of the American Society of Women Accountants. All the famale staff accountants got to go to the monthly meetings, meet with women executives, have partners come speak with them and interact, etc.

Was that fair? Do you support that arrangement?

[cbayer]

49. There are trade associations specifically for minority groups in all kinds of businesses.

It's not the same thing. They provide support and networking opportunities that might be otherwise unavailable to these groups.

The difference comes when you exclude a minority from the activities of the ruling majority.

[joeglow3]

97. So, discrimination is okay because I MIGHT get invited in 10 years?

In 12 years of accounting, I have never once been invited to a "boy's club" meeting outside the office. I have been invited to multple golf outings at private clubs by partners, executives, etc. And, EVERY SINGLE TIME, I was golfing right beside women (from my office and from clients). In my experiences, the "boy's club" is nothing more than a myth.

Clearly, it exists in some places but it is NOWHERE near as prevalent as people would have you believe.

[MADem]

91. How about this scenario?

You work hard, do well, and your boss invites you to join his foursome at Augusta. Those "lucky ducks" who went to the Bring Your Own Bag Lunch Meetings of the American Society of Women Accountants--even the ones who are doing a better job than you--don't get that golf date. And they never will, unless and until the rules change.

[AngryAmish]

96. Women are allowed to play at ANGC, not be members.

[MADem]

98. Well, aren't they the lucky ducks! No problem, then! Silly things!

If that boss inviting you for the foursome is a woman, it's off to the shitty course, then. And if the boss does have a pair, well gee--that woman visiting the course can't EVER expect her application for membership to be favorably reviewed, now, can she?

I think that any THINKING American, in the 21st Century, can see what is wrong here. Augusta is free to discriminate all they want, but I don't want or need to see the fruits of that discrimination on my television on the public airwaves for all my female relatives to behold, and believe, for even a second, that this is "OK." The FCC--my government, of by and for all the people, not just the men--issues that broadcast license. Further, those corporations that sponsor that event earn profits from both men and women, and they need to understand very clearly what is wrong with perpetuating the idea that discrimination is "OK" solely because they have been doing it since 1934.

The only reason the golfers are no longer all white, and the caddies all black (as the owner of that well-groomed cesspool once boasted) is because THINKING Americans said "Uh uh--that shit is just WRONG." Well, this shit is just WRONG, too.

They can do what they want--I just don't think they should either profit or be glorified via network television for it and I think Americans with brains are well within their rights to stand up and say "Cut that out." Decisions have consequences. One of the consequences should be that they need to forego the barrels of cash they get from perpetuating discrimination over FCC licensed airwaves and being proud of it. When one tries to pass off 'exclusion' as 'tradition' one is on a moron's path. That kind of attitude is dumb, noxious, and wrong.

This isn't a "b" or "c" word discussion--we're not talking about "names can never hurt one." Everyone has a differing level of tolerance for words, and words don't keep a person out of the member's bar or off the course. This kind of conduct, this cheery "You Don't Belong" attitude, is a direct affront to every female person on the globe, particularly when these bozos are taking money, hand over fist, from men as well as women.

[spooky3]

55. Exactly. And some businesses take deductions for their payments for memberships.

If this is not a business transaction, then why is that permitted? If it is a business transaction, then this is not a purely private club in the sense that it is exempt from anti-discrimination laws.

I don't think people would have ANY difficulty seeing the problem if African Americans were excluded from membership.

[cbayer]

58. In fact, the club was cowed into taking their first black member in 1990 because

it was seen as so outrageous.

But women? They appear to still be adamantly opposed.

[PassingFair]

93. "It is not a club I would join"

THIS is what Obama should have said.

He could have made it clear that he wouldn't WANT to join
a gender exclusionary club.


And nice stereotyping.

"with women's members things tend to become a country club."

Lots of those "country clubs" were female exclusionary for centuries.
They still had pools, tennis and restaurants.

[emilyg]

62. Private golf club? yes.

[Skinner]

63. And if they were discriminating against African Americans...

...would you approve?

[obamanut2012]

67. I wanted to ask the poster that question but didn't

Thanks for doing it.

I also wonder if not allowing Jewish members would be okay?

[Bonduel]

73. I would certainly disapprove. But there is a difference

between whether or not they should and whether or not they can. I think it's awful. I will not watch the Masters because of this. But do they have the right? I believe they do. It would be interesting to see if the media were to ask him or Carney if they believe Augusta CAN do what they are doing.

[MADem]

85. They got away with that until 22 years ago.

Last edited Sat Apr 7, 2012, 11:18 PM - Edit history (1)

The owner of that pretty cesspool said as long as he was in charge, the golfers would always be white and the caddies would always be black--and no I am not kidding.

For years, the golfers at the Masters couldn't use their own caddies--they had to use one of the 'club-supplied Bagger Vance's' -- if you look at old Master's footage, you will see this. It's outrageous. People put up with that shit, too. They act like this is some great "venerated" tradition--bullshit! The Masters has only been happening since the mid-thirties--hardly a Mint Julep and Miss Scarlett "tradition" from the days of the old plantations, or what-have-you.

Coddling bigots on the public airwaves, with funding from corporations who have shareholders of both genders, is bullshit. I agreed with Martha Burk when she raised this stink years ago, and I still agree with her.


Sam Snead and his Augusta-supplied black caddy in the late fifties



Ben Hogan and his Augusta-supplied black caddy in the mid-fifties

[MADem]

83. Corporations take profits generated from people of both genders to fund a golf show broadcast on

a TV station granted a license to broadcast by the US government (which is an entity made up of people of both genders, of by and for people of both genders). The golf club from which the show emanates blatantly discriminates against half the American population.

I say Augusta needs to stop discriminating, or we need to stop broadcasting the MASTERS on network TV. And I think we need to let the corporate sponsors of the little shindig know how we feel.

When the Daughters of the American Revolution host a golf tournament sponsored by American corporations and broadcast over airwaves by a network granted an FCC license, and everyone rakes in millions as a consequence, then we can talk.

[JoePhilly]

27. Freepers can stop being freezers ... not sure IBM's CEO can easily "change" ...

and even if she did change her gender ... I suspect the guys at Augusta would not welcome "him" afterwards.

The best part is that Romney and Santorum have to squirm and decided what to say or not say.

Poor Ricky's head might explode.

[WilliamPitt]

43. ^^^ Win ^^^

[emilyg]

46. It's a private club. How about

focusing on age discrimination in jobs.

[spooky3]

57. it is NOT a "private" club when businesses deduct membership costs, where advertising revenue is

a large part of the club's income, etc.

People are capable of multi-tasking and shouldn't have to choose between objecting to age discrimination in one context and gender discrimination in another.

[obamanut2012]

66. Of course it is

Women have the vote now, and are allowed to be full US citizens.

Discrimination is most definitely a Presidential concern.

[pnwmom]

29. And by staking out the moderate position, Obama is forcing Romney further right.

[MADem]

86. There is no daylight between Romney and Obama on this particular matter. None. nt

[Courtesy Flush]

52. I think that's why he said it

Just giving a personal opinion... not proposing any government intervention. Safe for him, but Republicans always take the bait on stuff like this.

Barack, keep speaking up for what is right, if only to force the other guys to speak up for what's wrong. It's an excellent strategy, and it takes advantage of the unlimited stupidity of the right.

[Drunken Irishman]

64. His press secretary was asked...

Yeesh. You'll find anything to criticize Obama on, won't you?

He was asked because Augusta has a long-standing tradition to honor the CEOs of companies who advertise for the Masters with an honorary membership. IBM sponsors this year's event and the CEO happens to be a woman. She was not offered the honorary membership.

http://espn.go.com/golf/masters12/story/_/id/7775393/opportunity-lost-augusta-national

[Arkana]

65. Because Augusta SHOULD admit female members?

Aren't you one of the ones always yammering that he should USE DA BULLY PULPIT?

[NYC Liberal]

69. Just to irritate you. nt

[MADem]

82. It's an issue. It matters. Remember Martha Burk? She's back.

http://womensenews.org/story/athleticssports/120405/martha-burk-ibm-at-augusta-women-saw

Why It Matters
No. 1: It's not about golf. Half of Augusta's membership (which reads like a roster of Fortune 500 CEOs) probably doesn't even care about golf, but the members do care about power relationships.

According to Fortune magazine, "golf remains the true communications hub of America's business elite." Courses like Augusta and the ancillary activities that surround them are where careers are made, deals are made, and membership in the "club" signifies equal status with other titans of business.

No. 2: Whether Rometty personally cares about the club is beside the point, and it most definitely should not be her responsibility to solve this "problem" by toeing some company-provided line and saying she doesn't want to join.

The point is that the board of directors of one of the world's most powerful corporations is allowing their female CEO to be diminished in the name of – well – the "boy's club."

[cstanleytech]

114. Why, is there a law that says a president cant comment on it or on other issues?

[Redford]

12. Why would any woman want to join?

Those jackets are hideous. However, if a person who has a vagina instead of a penis wants to be a member it should not be a problem in this day and age.

[cbayer]

31. Because a lot of business takes place on golf course, particularly courses like this.

I learned to play solely because I was missing out on some really important conversations.

[MADem]

87. As a member you can bring your business colleagues to play at one of the best courses in the USA.

You don't think that would help you get their business, land that contract, do that deal? Of course it would.

[merbex]

22. When Eisenhower basically said he would enforce the law when it came to desegregating schools, it

became VERY unpleasant for Ike and Mamie to spend time in Augusta( boo hardy hoo);they ended up transferring their 'golf allegiance out West near Palm Springs I believe.

That Club is SOOOOOO not going to like hearing the answer to that question from Barack Obama.

[CAPHAVOC]

28. Masters not Mistresses

Has anyone ever had to play behind four old ladies on Sunday? Whew! Don't do it!

[cbayer]

34. Did you really just say this?

I know a bunch of old ladies who could probably kick your butt on the golf course any day of the week.

[CAPHAVOC]

35. I shoulda brought a book, some tanning lotion, and a lawn chair.

And Rodney's Caddyshack Bag!

[cbayer]

40. If they were slower players than you, why didn't you just ask them if you could play through?

[CAPHAVOC]

41. I am Joking you.

Sorry if you thought me serious. I am glad you play. It is a great game. I just saw the Swede in the lead at Masters chunk one and start banging his club on the ground. Next shot he flew the Green. Steam is coming out his Ears. Our Lawyers wife was the first one to teach me in the 50's.

[CAPHAVOC]

50. We just played "over" them.

[MADem]

126. It was a decidedly unfunny comment.

It does offer perspective on the writer, though. By one's words we shall know them.

The "Masters" -- sexist and vestigially racist enterprise that the tournament is--has nothing to do with Masters v. Mistresses, it has everything to do with "mastering the game of golf."

I sometimes wonder what goes through people's heads when they make comments of that nature.

[harun]

45. lol

[HooptieWagon]

30. Its a private club

They can admit whomever they like, or not. However, that doesnt mean we have to be quiet about their neanderthall admission policy. A boycott of the network and advertisers of the Masters would likely have them rethinking the matter.

[AngryAmish]

36. They went two years with no advertisers before

That was awesome.

CBS and the advertisers need ANGC more than the other way around.

[spooky3]

54. And how would you feel if they continued to block African Americans from membership, as they did at

one time? I believe most people would be outraged by this. Sexism is equally deserving of outrage in this context.

This is not a purely "private club" -- businesses deduct memberships to it for "business" reasons, for example.

There is no excuse for their continued sexism.

Kudos to the President for speaking out.

And here is the evidence that corporations objected to racism, leading August National to change its racial discrimination policy in 1990:

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/after-fighting-racial-barriers-in-golf-ibm-faces-gender-bias-at-augusta-new-york/b1e18bbeba21e2128dc63241f15e2fcb

[Sgent]

60. Please provide evidence

that "businesses deduct" anything -- because its against the tax code.

Memberships in private social clubs (country clubs, yacht clubs, etc.) are absolutely prohibited deductions -- and in fact the corporation cannot even pay the bill directly. The company *can* pay for the actual costs of entertaining (actual food / liquor, room rentals, etc.), but not for membership.

[cstanleytech]

115. Actually it is a private club and if they wanted to block someone from joining based on their skin

color, religion or what foods they like to eat they could.
Doesnt mean its ethical of course of them to do so but until a law is passed that says otherwise private clubs are just that.....private.
Oh and in a footnote I hate the masters with a passion that shall never end as it makes the traffic here murder because they close off so many main roads just for it and yes........I live in the area sadly.

[MADem]

108. You think those corporations would continue to sponsor without the ability to advertise on network

TV? I don't think so. They'd leave. Where would the prize money come from? I don't think even the wealthy membership of Augusta would be thrilled at having to pony up millions every year to carry that weight, and the corporations do want bang for their buck. Having the nation regard them as sexist, neanderthal shitheads is hardly "bang for the buck." CBS, or ABC, or any of the over-the-air networks that are fulfilling an EXISTING contract with Augusta aren't going to continue to carry them along without any hope of advertising revenue. They'll kick it to a crappy cable affiliate as soon as they are able, one of the minor ESPNs, perhaps, or the little watched CNN SPORT, and use that network time to run Leave it to Beaver reruns with assorted national and regional advertising where they can at least make a few bucks. Over time, the cachet of the contest would fade because it's all about the money, as other clubs sense a vacuum and start offering bigger prize money with the cachet of inclusion in their membership roles.

Those golfers like the cash--that's why they are there. It's the ONLY reason why they are there--see? It's big dough: http://www.augusta.com/masters/story/blog/2012-masters-tournament-prize-money. Even the very last loser gets a sweet payday. The Green Jacket shit is cutesy, but if there's no money associated with it, it would lose steam and dry up.

All that needs to happen is for Magic Johnson or Bill Gates or Oprah Winfrey or some other stinking rich So and So to schedule a tournament at a top-ranked club--maybe even a brand new one, with a super-duper course full of challenges and a clubhouse full of amenities with double the prize money on the same weekend, with double money for even the last place finisher, and there would be desertions like no one has seen since the Iraqi Army fell apart during Saddam's last stand. They'd be lucky if "The Masters" would draw the very bottom ranked golfers, and no one would give a shit.

There's nothing "awesome" about discrimination.

[Hosnon]

109. If you think the prize money is the only reason people compete in the Masters, you are extremely

unfamiliar with the tournament.

Golfers want the Green Jacket above all else. You could take away the prize money and a win at Augusta would in all likelihood be just as coveted.

[MADem]

120. No, I'm not "extremely unfamiliar with the tournament."

I remember it when the "default" caddy was a black guy in a white prison-like jumpsuit.

I didn't care for it then, either.

There's nothing honorable about bigotry and exclusion. Without the money, that place would dry up like a dessicated shithole--"Amen" corner and all. Ike did a bunk from that place as soon as bigotry became an issue, and no one liked golf better.

Stuff does go out of fashion, you know--Augusta's time has passed, unless they change their ways.

The only reason that "golfers want the green jacket" is because golfers are persuaded to show up in the first place for the MONEY. Once the best are selected, then the competition becomes amusing. They would never show up, though, if the money didn't bring them there in the first place.

You're trying to play a chicken-egg game, here. It doesn't work. Take away the cash, and those golfers would happily take a hike to the place where the money is being handed out freely. You wouldn't get the level of competition without that cash because those guys do that for a LIVING, not for the charitable amusement of others.

[Hosnon]

122. I'm not quite sure where your level of disdain comes from, but it is quite clear it is high.

The Martha Burke episode demonstrated that the ANGC has enough money to do what it pleases. There have always been wild rumors about its finances but its safe to say that the net worth of that place is astronomical.

As for the prize money, it is simply not the biggest draw. The prestige and the Green Jacket are. But in any event, a boycott of sponsors to somehow reduce the prize money wouldn't work - the ANGC members would simply make up the difference.

The prize this year was over a million, but that is a new development. Palmer won the equivalent of $88K in 1958, Watson won $152K in 1977, and Tiger won $700K in 1997. Not chump change by any means but not "set for live" winnings either (particularly Palmer's $88K).

Take away the prize money and the talent would still be there. The prestige of the Green Jacket is probably enough to accomplish that. But if it has to be about money, the potential endorsement money to be earned by the winner would do the trick (and dwarfs the prize money).

ETA: Graph showing the real growth of the prize money:

[MADem]

124. Her name is Burk, not Burke.

It's very interesting to me that you got that wrong. http://www.marthaburk.org/

My "level of disdain" comes from a place of essential human decency. What I also find interesting is your desperate contortions to convince yourself that first, Augusta is some sort of self-sustaining money machine (take away the members and their dues, and the place goes straight to hell), and second, that you believe that behaving like neanderthals in this day and age is somehow acceptable under an umbrella of "tradition."

What you don't seem to understand is that the Augusta purses have grown specifically to keep 'em coming--you put the Green Jacket cart before the Big Money horse, and that's just not on. The purses for first prize have been well over a million for this entire 21st century and close to it before that--that's not a terribly "new" development. And those lucrative endorsements? They will grow less and less attractive as this issue gains traction--and it will.

They've got to do something at Augusta, and for now, they think throwing money at the problem will stop the bleeding--they are in an indefensible position, and other tournaments are able to offer huge purses (that grow larger by the year) without the stink of unnecessary, rigid, hateful discrimination (if you are indeed, as you indicated, a "gay man living in Augusta" you should know all about that unnecessary, rigid, hateful discrimination of which I speak).

If you think those "it's all about the money, money, money" golfers would eschew a big cash tourney for the "prestige" of the Green jacket and no cash prize, I have a bridge to sell you. It is the MONEY that brings them to that place. If the FEDEX Cup was being played at the same time as the Master's, Augusta's links would be populated by fourth tier duffers who hadn't a hope in hell of qualifying in any other circumstance.

I hope you appreciate that, as I do not know you and have never interacted with you before this thread, I must take anything you have to say about this issue with a huge grain of salt. I don't find your arguments even remotely credible and I find your defenses of discriminatory conduct weak and unsubstantiated.

[Hosnon]

129. I find it interesting that you find that interesting.

Good lord - misspelling a name is hardly evidence of, well, anything other than misspelling.

We'll revisit this later (few years, perhaps).

You will be wrong, as was Burk.

[MADem]

128. What does the "growth rate" of investing the purse have to do with the prize money? Answer-nothing.

It's certainly easy to look back and see how an investment has done over the years, but how one can say what the return on an investment made this year will be over future decades is meaningless. Simply using the S and P benchmark is absurd--what's important is what the purse is worth NOW--not how some imaginary robot-golfer who sticks to the Standard and Poor path chooses to invest it, and how it "might" perform over the course of decades.

That's a bullshit graph, frankly. And it has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination and sexism. The point you are frantically running away from is that the prize money keeps going up, up, up to keep the golfers coming--if the prize money dries up, you can wipe your behind with those left over green jackets, because the golfers will go where the money is.

Also, you've been here long enough and you know better--links, please. Not that it really matters--I can get a sense of what your shopping just from the graph.

[AngryAmish]

118. Bill Gates is a member of ANGC, so is Warren Buffet (or so they say)

[MADem]

119. Perhaps they can be persuaded to see why that's a bad move, if that is true.

There's nothing "classy" about being asssociated with bigots.

[Chakaconcarne]

44. Sweeet!!

Now let's hear the GOP candidates, FOX news and the like disagree with him. Think he isn't baiting them?

[Dont call me Shirley]

59. Thanks President Obama for being the wise adult in the room.

[madville]

68. Is it ok for many Curves fitness centers to exclude men?

A private club should be allowed to do as they wish within the law. And people and businesses can take their dollars and sponsorship elsewhere, freedom and all that.

[LanternWaste]

79. I imagine many people either cannot or simply will not see the critical and relevant differences...

I imagine many people either cannot or simply will not see the critical and relevant differences... the first one being, Curves is not hiding their policy-- Augusta is. Another being that one of the major reasons it is female only is to better allow the clients a sense of safety.





"I would turn it around and say the fitness industry for years was run by men, for men," said Mike Raymond, marketing director for the huge chain. "Their needs have been taken care of for years. The equipment and the facilities were designed for them."

Tricia Murphy, who runs Urban Fitness in West Seattle, says the double standard exists because men's appearance hasn't been judged as critically as women's. But, adds Murphy, who features a women-only cardio strip tease class, "In this day and age, if a men's gym opened, I wouldn't have a problem with it." (Actually, it's already happening. A new franchise chain for men called The Blitz opened in January and now has 60 branches around the country and in Canada.)

A few (states) have even sued, though most have been turned away by the courts. One Wisconsin man's lawsuit against Curves prompted the state to pass a law exempting single-sex fitness centers from the state's discrimination laws. My suggestion to you would be to research the court cases, research the decisions, ask yourself if the same applies in both cases. Or you may simply do nothing, and maintain this your position based on a lack of knowledge....

[MADem]

101. I tend to think the reason it doesn't matter re: CURVES is because

no one in the CURVES universe is making a fortune from any sort of televised advertisement associated with a sporting contest over the course of days on an FCC-licensed broadcast station. IBM, with male and female shareholders and customers, isn't sponsoring any CURVES event held at one of their "highly desirable" gyms. That IS what is happening at Augusta.

Also, CURVES doesn't have a member's club where the members can eat, drink, network and socialize, it's a "Get In, Get Out, Keep Moving" enterprise which isn't conducive to a lot of networking. Finally, in most markets, you can get the same (usually better) "fitness" stuff for the same price or less, in a mixed gender environment (Planet Fitness, e.g.).

When CURVES puts in a bar and clubhouse to facilitate business networking, becomes the "in" place for hanging out and dealmaking, makes a deal with ABC, or any other FCC licensed over-the-airwaves tv station to broadcast some sort of Big Name, heavily viewed sporting contest for several days straight, while boasting about their "tradition" of excluding men, and gets IBM and AT and T to throw in a ton of money for sponsorship and prize money, then we have something to discuss. I'd want CURVES to rethink their policies too, in that case. But that's not the case at all, presently--CURVES is just a bunch of weight machines geared towards the anatomies of female persons in inexpensive retail space--no bar, no clubhouse, no locker rooms, no amenities. When low-end retail space and a few women-oriented weight machines becomes a desirable "business meeting" environment, it'll be time for them to rethink their policies.

Martha Burk was right all those years ago. She's still right. This shit needs to stop.

[MADem]

90. When Curves holds a tournament sponsored by major US corporations, broadcast over FCC-licensed

television stations and public airwaves, then let's talk equivalencies.

Otherwise, your argument doesn't hold up. These clowns are making money using government-licensed airwaves, supported by corporations with male and female shareholders. They discriminate.

I think more people should pull a Martha Burk and raise some hell.

A private club can do as they wish but we don't have to offer up the good offices of our FCC licensing agency in aid of anyone who abets them. Further, private citizens can rain down shit on corporations that support these discriminators and boycott their products. Further, said private citizens can also complain to our government that television networks licensed by the federal government are engaging in discriminatory standards and practices.

How's that for 'taking it somewhere else?' I say cut 'em off. No TV, no press, no nothing. Augusta relies on that payday they get from those corporate sponsors. Make them join the rest of us in the current century if they want to continue to enjoy the fruits of the labors of corporate employees of both genders. Otherwise, tell 'em to eff off.

[Jamaal510]

70. I can just imagine if somebody like MoRon Paul were asked to comment on this.

He would probably go out to defend Augusta's decision to bar women from joining. We all know how much he loves liberty and freedom...as long as you're rich and own a business, that is. He would've said something like, "Augusta shouldn't be forced to allow women if they don't want to. It infringes on the liberty of its owners."

[RainDog]

71. why do golfers continue to play in this tournament?

are all pro-golfers so indifferent to yet another example of institutional sexism that they'll play the Augusta National? If these big names wouldn't show up, the golf club would change its rules.

but the men who make money by not making waves, by just going along, allow this to continue.

[harun]

84. Ridiculouos. So a 1% club will get forced to allow another 1% female to join, that's progress?

So short sited and missing the real problem with exclusive "clubs".

Corporate media makes fake issues and the sheep follow to the slaughter.

[MADem]

103. HUGE PRIZE MONEY. Put up by corporations with male and female shareholders and customers--

and that, in essence, is what is wrong with this shit.

If all they got was a green jacket and the power to choose the menu for the stupid little After Tournament dinner the following year (remember Fuzzy Zoeller's racist "fried chicken and watermelon" comments to Tiger Woods years ago?) you wouldn't get unemployed day traders to show up for that thing. The money brings out the big golfers, and it is NOT a "PGA" event--if it were, the PGA wouldn't put up with the exclusionary practices of the club.

It's all about the MONEY. And they get that MONEY from the corporate sponsors, and from the money they make cutting deals with FCC-licensed over-the-air television stations --which are licensed, in effect, by We, The (male and female) People-- that tout that sexist playground to the clueless golfing masses who don't quite grasp the nuances of the "tradition" of discrimination. It ain't right.

[Hosnon]

112. I'm assuming you have some sort of professional or personal knowledge to back up your

repeated claim that Augusta is all about the money?

'Cause in my personal opinion (which includes hanging out with golf fans and golfers from around the world every April for ~30 years), it is not about the money.

[MADem]

116. Sure, whatever. This is the internet.

My link is no good, apparently--I should take anecdotal evidence over it!

[Hosnon]

123. All your link provided was prize money stats.

Not motivation stats.

And what's with the horrendously bad attitude?

[MADem]

127. The money is the motivator.

And the horrendously bad attitude is all yours--this isn't Free Republic, or the "Wimmin Hater's Club" where those sorts of attitudes are seen as amusing--it's Democratic Underground. Discrimination and sexism aren't welcomed, coddled, endorsed or defended around here, and "tradition" is no excuse. As our TOS notes "Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. "

I have a difficult time reconciling this TOS guidance with your rather spirited defense (consisting of your opinions, essentially) of Augusta's discriminatory practices, particularly given your volunteered personal history.

You're not "posting" bigotry, but you're certainly working overtime to defend it. I find that disturbing. I'll bet I'm not alone.

[Hosnon]

130. This post should probably be deleted for implying I'm a Freeper or what not.

But... meh. And I've no interest in trying to reason with someone so belligerent.

As for the discrimination thing - I would like to point out that I'm a gay man. I do not tolerate implications that I intentionally discriminate based on anything.

ETA: If you bothered to read my posts, you'd know that I think they should include women, but shouldn't be forced to. But don't let that stop your righteous rantings.

[Hosnon]

111. It's the prestige. Despite what a few are claiming here, it is not only about the prize money.

Or even primarily.

[RainDog]

113. The point of it all, to me

is that this is one example, an already privileged one, of the greater truth - people are willing to put up with discrimination of various groups because of their own gain.

They don't see that their actions allow such experiences to continue.

Contrary to the person who missed this point in a comment - this moment is about white male privilege. It's a private club, they can do what they like, therefore, those who benefit from their privilege can hide behind the idea that they only benefit from it - they don't perpetuate it. However, by benefiting from such things, they are perpetuated because no one says "No. Not with the policy you have toward others." (in this case, females.)

[MADem]

117. A million and a half bucks isn't chicken feed. It is about the money.

Even the last place finisher gets close to thirty grand for a couple days "work."

[Hosnon]

121. Of course it's not chicken feed. But anyone with a modicum of golf knowledge, specifically,

ANGC knowledge, will know that it is without a doubt not "about the money".

The money obviously makes it more attractive and is a factor; but the major draw is the Green Jacket.

[MADem]

125. As I have iterated elsewhere, I don't find your arguments credible.

The "Green Jacket" of which you speak was not even a factor in the tournament for the first decade and a half of the club's existence, and the "tradition" was sloppily formulated from 1949 on. Brooks Brothers wisely eschewed making the things for that racist establishment in 1967, a period of great social change in our nation, and they found a new manufacturer who didn't have a problem being associated with the sketchy and discriminatory history of that offensive club.

For someone who purports to know so much about the "tradition" of that racist, sexist cesspool, you're coming up short on points and facts.

[Hosnon]

131. The club also couldn't give away tickets to the tournament 50 years ago.

Quite a lot has changed - including what primarily draws golfers.

Your aggressive style is simply immature and I will not feed it.

I hope to cross paths on better terms in the future.

[MADem]

134. Whatever.

I am neither aggressive nor immature. A look in your mirror might be in order.

You also might not wait two and a half weeks before continuing a conversation if you want substantive discussion.

[Blue_Tires]

132. If Augusta ever had it's "major" status yanked, its clout and popularity would fall off a cliff

[Hosnon]

133. That's more plausible than reducing or removing the prize money.

But not certain.

Like the Indy 500 after the racing split, Augusta could very well maintain its prestige without the PGA.

[LanternWaste]

77. read through the entire thread and replaced the word 'woman' with the word 'gay'.

As an exercise in ethical consistency and to allow myself an additional perspective, I read through the entire thread and replaced the word 'woman' with the word 'gay' each time it appeared.

Doing that reduced (and in one particular case, actually eliminated) a handful of posters' implied histories of their own inclusive and progressive philosophies to little more than untruths.

[Hosnon]

110. I'm a gay male, and was born and raised in Augusta (and still live here).

Perhaps I can provide some additional insight.

I agree with Obama: (1) AGNC should admit women/gay men but (2) AGNC should not be forced by the government to do so.

[chervilant]

94. Being male

anywhere on this planet is a huge advantage.

The power imbalance inherent in the social construct we've labeled 'patriarchy' is damaging to our entire species. How can we expect a 'dominant' gender to respect a 'submissive' gender, when 'power over' is glorified? We women are considered less than because we have a 'v' instead of a 'p'! How absurd!

Some great resources for any who wish to change this oppressive socio-cultural reality:

The Mermaid and the Minotaur: Sexual Arrangements and Human Malaise by Dorothy Dinnerstein.

Beyond Power: On Women, Men and Morals by Marilyn French.

The War Against Women by Marilyn French.

(This 'all male club' routine needs to stop, now.)

[lynne]

95. As a female, I really don't care -

- if the "boys" have their own private club. Gal's are known to have their own private groups and organizations and there are times I'm glad to be away from the boys.

There are plenty of co-ed clubs around for those who want to participate. As long as the club/organization is a private one, I don't have a problem with it.

[MADem]

104. Do those "gals" clubs cut multi-million dollar deals with FCC licensed television stations?

Do those gal's clubs offer massive purses of millions of dollars in prize money to attract top golfers so that their "brand" is elevated? Are they, in effect, making BIG money off discriminatory practices?

Augusta is a cesspool. This isn't an issue of "boys" and "girls" clubs. They are promoting their environment via over-the-air broadcast networks, that We The People provide a license to via the FCC. They get tons of money to support this exclusionary environment from corporations that We The People hold shares in, and are customers of--and that's We The (male and female) People who are forced to be complicit in this.

This isn't just about girls go that way, boys go the other way, and go have your little fun--this is about power, influence, corporate networking, and a culture of exclusion. They are quite welcome to have their exclusionary fun, I just don't want to see it on public airwaves, and I don't want corporations that I patronize or hold shares in perpetuating that kind of neanderthal conduct. THAT's the issue--not letting the "boys" go off and "play" on their own.

Martha Burk was right then and she's right now.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. well said. nt

[raindaddy]

100. Screw Playing Golf With A Bunch Of Rich White Men

Screw playing golf with a bunch of rich white men and screw getting raped in the military... It's time for the Goddess to arise and for us to find some real balance between the masculine and the feminine before it's too late.