Britain may use mediaeval treason law to tackle Islamist fighters

[The Magistrate]

Source: Reuters

Britain may use a mediaeval law dating to 1351 to charge citizens with treason if they go to fight with Islamic State insurgents in Iraq and Syria, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said.

Hammond said any British citizen who had sworn personal allegiance to the so-called Islamic State could have committed an offense under the Treason Act of 1351, which was passed during the reign of English King Edward III.

"That does raise questions about their loyalty and allegiance to this country and about whether the offense of treason could have been committed," he said, adding he would bring the issue to the attention of Home Secretary (interior minister) Theresa May.

The maximum sentence for treason in Britain is life imprisonment; it was death until 1998.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/17/us-mideast-crisis-britain-idUSKCN0I612P2014101

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Here is the text:

Treason Act of 1351 (c 2)

Declaration what offences shall be adjudged treason (as in force today)

Item, whereas divers opinions have been before this time in what case
reason shall be said, and in what not; the King, at the request of the lords
and of the commons, hath made a declaration in the manner as hereafter
followeth, that is to say; when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our
lord the King, or of our lady his Queen or of their eldest son and heir; or if a
man do violate the King's companion, or the King's eldest daughter unmarried, or
the wife the King's eldest son and heir; or if a man do levy war against our
lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King's enemies in his realm,
giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere, and thereof be
probably attainted of open deed by the people of their condition:. . . and if a
man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King's justices of the one bench or
the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assise, and all other justices
assigned to hear and determine, being in their places, doing their offices: and
it is to be understood, that in the cases above rehearsed, that ought to be
judged treason which extends to our lord the King, and his royal majesty:. .

[bigworld]

1. Dealing with a medieval religious mindset via a medieval law

I don't have a problem with that.

[The Magistrate]

9. Nor Do I, Sir

There is something oddly appropriate to it.

[Fred Sanders]

13. The law is so oddly worded and includes even thinking bad stuff about the King...it is absurd.

And it's use as a criminal indictment, worthless...it is bait for the media.
Those guys will eat anything.

[The Magistrate]

15. That is Indeed Treason There, Sir

And under most monarchical systems. The strict definition of treason in our Constitution is in reaction to this broad net, of which it was said that 'A man who had but wished Godspeed to a neighbor setting out on a treasonous enterprise might find himself alongside him in the dock'.

It remains the law in force in England, though, and I expect one could get a conviction under it.

[freshwest]

33. So is killing people for not sharing the same religion, as ISIS does. They are FOS.

[okasha]

39. Words can change meaning

over 650 years. In 1351, "imagine the king's death" meant "plot his assassination." We don't think very kindly of someone who plots to kill the President on this side of the Pond, either.

[Turbineguy]

18. Yes, there is something

inherently logical about that idea.

If found guilty will they be drawn and quartered?

[freshwest]

32. My first thought, too, but the UK no longer allows such. ISIS however, would.

I have an evil mind, even when we are in jest...

[dembotoz]

2. understand the inquisition was lots of fun

[Renew Deal]

3. Put them in the iron maiden!

Last edited Fri Oct 17, 2014, 10:17 AM - Edit history (1)

Excellent

[LibertyLover]

4. I like it!

n/t

[The Magistrate]

6. I Do Not Recall If I Have Told You This Before, Sir

But I love your signature line.

[LibertyLover]

11. Thank you!

Just one small detail, I'm a ma'am.

[OnlinePoker]

12. Here's a weird thing I've noticed on U.S. TV

I'm in the Canadian military (for 3 more weeks). We call our female officers Ma'am, and our male officers Sir. On U.S. TV shows, they always call officers of either gender Sir. Is this the way it's done in the U.S. military and police force?

[LibertyLover]

34. That's a darn good question

i honestly don't know.

[happyslug]

37. When I was In, it was Sirs to Men, Ma'am to Women

For that was like saying he for men and she for women.

On TV shows, they like to be "Sex Neutral" so I can see them doing so on such programs.

I had to check the latest Drill and Ceremony Field Manual (July 2003) and it still retains the term “Sir (Ma’am), Private Jones reports.” (See Appendix page A-1).

"https://thelastbastille.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/drill-ceremonies-fm-3-21-5-close-order-drill.pdf

Another example of NOT trusting movies or TV shows to be accurate about anything unless it is a documentary (and even then keep an open mind).

[Paulie]

41. Star Trek does it. Did all the other shows learn it from there?

[OnlinePoker]

42. Possibly.

I know they do it on Castle as well and, I think, NCIS, though it's been a long time since I watched that.

[geek tragedy]

5. Getting medieval on their asses nt

[The Magistrate]

8. It Is Rather Cold, Sir

The sort of thing makes you want to hunt up a sweater when you read of it....

[Rhinodawg]

49. And the consequences ?

more terrorists. Maybe they shouldn't bother them.

[mainer]

7. How about just lifetime banishment?

If they leave to fight, they can't come back again. That would be easier to enforce and wouldn't fill up courts and prisons.

[The Magistrate]

10. I Suspect The Point, Sir, Is To Incapacitate From Further Mischief

Not leave people at large, sloshing about in the big world beyond the islands....

[Scootaloo]

17. It's illegal to render someone stateless.

[Turborama]

20. Not that it worries the Home Secretray, Theresa May

Theresa May to seek support for plan to deprive terror suspects of citizenship
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/06/theresa-may-support-plan-deprive-terror-suspects-british-citizenship

[Scootaloo]

21. That's adorable

Violating international law to punish people who have not been convicted of anything.

[Kaleva]

35. Could the UK declare them citizens of ISIL?

I read an article where it was said that it was legal to strip Britain citizenship from those with dual nationality.

""The home secretary Theresa May said she already can remove citizenship from extremists with dual nationality. Naturalised Britons can also lose their passport according to a recently approved legislation."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/norway-make-citizens-fighting-isis-stateless-1462776

[Scootaloo]

36. If the UK wants to grant diplomatic recognition to the Islamic State, yeah

[BeatleBoot]

14. I knew it, I just knew it!

I knew the media was eval!

[bread_and_roses]

16. oh good - now people can be executed for mocking the Royals ...

or even "imagining" the death of the King! ... just like in the good old days! Maybe they can bring back drawing & quartering - in public - too!

ISIL or whatever they're calling themselves is a far lesser threat to the "West" than our continued descent into a society divided into serfs and Aristos, or our pusillanimous willingness to imprison and torture and disappear people, not to mention blow children around the world to bloody bits in the name of "security."

[leftynyc]

19. Since this law doesn't

appear to have ever been OFF the books (just not used), don't you think you're being the slightest big hysterical?

[bread_and_roses]

27. I am being sardonic - however ...

.... unfortunately, there is nothing "hysterical" in pointing out the slide into such gross inequality of wealth and privilege that we begin to look like a medieval oligarchy, nor our out-of-control security apparatus, nor our wanton slaughter of innocents. A regression to medieval notions of what constitutes "treason" seems ironically apt.

[Bragi]

45. Congrats to the terrorists: you won!

It's staggering that people here would actually read that sweeping royal proclamation, or whatever it is, and think it's a plausibly good law.

This being so, it's time to officially declare victory for the terrorists over our previously held civil liberties and sense of justice.

All hail our new masters. Frightened we are, unfree we are, and frightened and unfree we shall remain!

[bread_and_roses]

48. 2nd that - there's saying from "Dune" ...

... if I recall, it goes "fear is the mind-killer." It continues to amaze me that we in US seem to tout ourselves as brave when it looks from here like we cower in abject terror, willing to surrender our civil rights, at the least hint of danger.

[Sunlei]

22. Have the Britts ever used the 1351 treason laws against anyone in the 1900s & 2000s?

Think the USA made new laws to make 'immune from charges' lots of 'not regular citizens' folks.

[The Magistrate]

24. Lord Haw-Haw Was Hanged Under This Statute, Sir, After The Second World War

Mr. Casement, the Irish rebel ( among other things ), was hanged under it during the Great War.

I cannot recall any other cases off-hand of its use in the period.

The penalties have changed greatly down the years, and capital punishment was abolished in England some while ago.

[Sunlei]

29. Thanks, had to lookup 'Lord Haw-Haw' , he was a nazi propaganda broadcaster to UK during WW2

William Brooke Joyce (24 April 1906 – 3 January 1946), nicknamed Lord Haw-Haw, was an Irish-American fascist politician and Nazi propaganda broadcaster to the United Kingdom during the Second World War. He was convicted of one count of high treason in 1945. The Court of Appeal and the House of Lords upheld his conviction. He was hanged at Wandsworth Prison by Albert Pierrepoint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce

[The Magistrate]

30. He Was Quite a Piece Of Work, Sir

Mr. Casement was something else again. Before his involvement in Irish rebellion, which led to some collaboration with Germany, he was one of the leaders in exposing the first of the modern genocides, the Belgian drive for rubber in the Congo under King Leopold.

[daleo]

43. A bit more from the wiki article

"Joyce was captured by British forces in northern Germany just as the war ended,[19] tried, and eventually hanged for treason on 3 January 1946. Joyce's defence team, appointed by the court, argued that, as an American citizen and naturalised German, Joyce could not be convicted of treason against the British Crown. However, the prosecution successfully argued that, since he had lied about his nationality to obtain a British passport and voted in Britain, Joyce owed allegiance to the king."

It seems likely that the U.S. government was ok with this outcome too.

[gordianot]

25. Gaddafi with his "eerie obsession" you can almost feel the vibes.

[christx30]

23. I don't really mind this.

It's pretty troubling to have someone, after seeing everything going on there, with the murder, rapes, displacing 10's of thousands, selling girls into sex slavery, the beheadings, to see all of that and say "I want to be part of that. Those people are me."
So if this is the kind of society the ISIS groupies want, let's give it to them. I always like to see when people that want less freedom for others lose theirs.

[valerief]

26. I hope it involves singing and dancing.

[Historic NY]

28. Not a bad idea...

[cosmicone]

31. I hope the punishment is medieval as well

like boiling in oil or something

[Kaleva]

38. On a side note, the oldest written law in the UK still in force is...

the Distress Act of 1267.

http://www.historyextra.com/qa/oldest-law-land

[T_i_B]

40. That's still later then the Magna Carta..

...which UKIP types like to invoke in a desperate attempt to prove that Britain's membership of the EU is somehow invalid.

[Rhinodawg]

44. I hope this doesnt aggrevate the situation.

I remember 7/7 .

The muslim community in the UK may view this as an affront to them and cause large amount of social unrest. Do they really want to upset them and risk offending them?


Look whats already happening...

(UK) Terror plot suspects planned to kill police, court hears

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29662245

The men, who have been jointly charged with the intention of committing acts of terrorism, or assisting others to commit such acts, between 8 July and 7 October, are:

Tarik Hassane, 21, of Dalgarno Way, west London
Suhaib Majeed, 20, of Church Street Estate, north west London
Nyall Hamlett, 24, of Great Western Road, west London
Momen Motasim, 21, of Hallfield Estate, west London

[Rhinodawg]

46. BTW...Islamic State Actually Has More Support In Britain Than In Arab Nations

But the report is in stark contrast with an August poll on the same topic for ICM, which found that 7% of citizens responded favourably to IS in Britain. To put that result in context, just 5% of the British population are Muslim, meaning a vast number of those surveyed feeling either "very" or "somewhat" favourably towards IS were not Muslim.

In France, the figure was dramatically higher, with 16% of French citizens saying they have a positive opinion of IS, spiking at 27% for those who are aged 18-24. In Germany, it was far lower, with around 3% expressing a positive view.



http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/16/islamic-state-arab-nations-britain-support_n_5995548.html



I think the UK is in for a world of hurt.

[pitohui]

47. "may"

while it seems appropriate that they should use any law at their disposal to stop this crap...i've learned that "may" is usually a code word for "probably won't"