Police arrest two Ferguson protesters in clash with Rams fans
Source: St. Louis Post Dispatch
Rams fans and Ferguson protesters fought Sunday afternoon outside the Edward Jones Dome after the Rams secured a victory over the visiting Seattle Seahawks.
About 3 p.m. Sunday, a handful of fans argued with protesters, who were yelling and chanting, near the intersection of North Broadway and Cole streets.
St. Louis police arrested two protesters. One was a 49-year-old woman. The other was her 17-year-old daughter. Police did not release the names of the women.
The older woman was arrested on suspicion of two counts of second-degree assault. She also was arrested for one count of third-degree assault after punching a woman, 55, in the eye. The victim was treated by paramedics at the scene.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/fans-and-protesters-clash-after-rams-game/article_dcca3100-aa78-5ea0-a55f-c8833a07a4f6.html
In the video clip at the bottom of this piece, the reporters interview St. Louis (City) Police Chief Dotson who notes that last Monday's protest was non-violent but this protest has escalated matters somewhat.
I salute and support the courage and fortitude of the Ferguson Resistance.
St. Louis can have its racism and white supremacy OR it can have its professional sports. But it CAN'T HAVE BOTH!
OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)police in the videos is African American. He must be experiencing massive cognitive dissonance right now as, for all he knows, his children will be gunned down by his white colleagues for nothing more than walking down the street. I hope protesters are making at least some effort to get African American cops to break ranks. (In the video, I did see an elderly black protester speaking to the black cop briefly.)
These videos are pretty incredible (and make St. Louis look really ugly.)
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)If I didn't know any better I would say some of the protesters were COINTELPRO.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)their cause.
Silly little St. Louisians, thinking they get to enjoy their bread and circuses AND keep their racist white supremacist constabulary.
NOT!
First rule of the ruling class is to try to sow divisions among the resistance by planting doubts about certain members' bona fides ("some of the protesters were COINTELPRO" . Given that there were by all accounts no more than 20-30 protesters at this Rams game, I'd say it's far more likely that all the protesters knew one another.
Would President Obama and Atty. General Holder be authorizing COINTELPRO operations against Ferguson? Possible, but not likely.
I wish I could be there with them to lend my support, even if, as a white male, you'd be calling me COINTELPRO.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)because the protesters actions are counter productive to their cause. This is likely to turn public opinion against them. You want people people pissed about the Ferguson cause. Not against it.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Darren Wilson's actions extra-judicially executing Michael Brown by 62% already. So I doubt anyone's mind was changed as a result of this protest. What the protesters need to do is make it impossible for (white) St. Louisians to continue to live lives of apathetic comfort. They want their racist and white supremacist constabulary (by a margin of 62%)? Fine, but they don't get to enjoy their stupid bread and circuses in peace too.
I think it's safe to say that I and they want two things: 1) St. Louis County DA Bob McCulloch's recusal from the Grand Jury proceedings into Michael Brown's extra-judicial execution and 2) Officer Darren Wilson's immediate arrest on charges of 2nd-degree murder. (I'll wager that most of the whites you see in these videos think Wilson was entirely justified in gunning down Brown.)
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)I'm sure the protesters made it impossible for Rams fans to enjoy their stunning victory over the Seahawks. I'm sure it erased the memory of that awesome trick punt return the Rams had. I bet that all those fans at the game can think about tonight is the racial makeup up of the Ferguson police force.
/sarcasm
All that the protester's behavior at that game is going to do is make people not take the protests seriously and land a couple of the protesters in jail.
Also yelling racist phrases doesn't help the protesters either.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)arrogant white privilege and complacency.
Also, shooting down unarmed black youth makes St. Louis look like a paragon of race relations to the civilized world.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)Because I can promise you that the vast majority won't. And those that do think about the protests will remember what jerks the protesters were.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)more to discuss with you.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)If you spit on someone, you're a jerk.
If you punch someone, you're a jerk.
If you yell racist statements, you're a jerk.
The Ferguson protest cause need better people to represent it than the ones at the Rams game yesterday.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but the poster is right, most St. Louisan's could care less about what's happening in Ferguson, all they're going to remember is how soem protesters tried to disrupt a monumental win over the Seahawks.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)
when unarmed black youth are being gunned down by white cops?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Brown's murder was 'justified'?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Or maybe they were pissed because they just left an amazing game and were harrassed by a bunch of protesters?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)
the ugliness of their racist constabulary. The horror! The horror!
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)she will wind up in jail, because she assaulted a guy on tape. she makes the protesters look violent and racist. she defeated her own cause.
"The 17-year-old was booked on suspicion of two counts of third-degree assault. Police say she spit in the face of a man, 47, and then punched him in the eye. She also spit in the face of another man, 35."
this is your idea of heroes?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)hands of a protester wasn't arrested and was even interviewed and proudly proclaimed his criminal act. With nary a consequence. His color: white.
I guess it's the same mentality that calls Ferguson protesters 'thugs' while calling the Pumpkin rioters 'rowdies.'
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)If so then I have no problem with somebody grabbing the pole.
I haven't seen video of that particular event though.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)running up to people, spitting on them, and punching them?
she's doing a lot to single-handedly destroy the credibility of people protesting. she played right into the RW stereotypes.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)elsewhere in this thread.
But she's "single-handedly destroying the credibility of people protesting."
What if one of those whites called her a "N****r" but that little part wasn't caught on tape? Would that alter at all the absolutist moral calculus you're deploying here?
Put another way: are you seriously going to maintain that she came out to protest in order to spit on people?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)and no, someone calling her nasty names doesn't justify violence. it would make her just as bad as the person you imagine instigating her.
MLK and Ghandi would be proud.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)there was no possible precipiating event.
I don't think we have much more to discuss.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)adults and keep their hand to themselves, therefore making the protestors look bad.
we don't have anything to discuss at all if you're going to defend violent actions to the hilt.
Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #40)
840high This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to dionysus (Reply #17)
840high This message was self-deleted by its author.
Please provide a link to this poll. Thanks.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)disrupt the oppressor? Would you also recommend getting shot so you can deprive them of bullets?
In the main you are correct. They don't need organizers yet, they need to disorganize what is organized against them first, then use some of its power to re-organize. Many people find it profitable to just start with that second step (especially political fundraisers and bankers. (That, btw, is an easy way to create an organization with no spirit, soul, or moral principles. Leave the people out, just give it money, it moves that way).
Had they maintained their discipline and were shown being attacked by something other than speech, or perhaps even videos of racist speech hurled at them, those would have been great videos, transposed with the great game of FOOTBALL...that would be disruptive, disorganizing. Likely the only disruption here is a potential jail sentence, a criminal record, and perhaps being on the losing end of a very expensive civil lawsuit.
In just my opinion, they played right into what the oppressors are set up to do, very efficiently, and these people were served up, or served themselves up, as menu items for a recipe that just needed their assistance.
On the other hand, if they could delay or stop the game, that would be disruptive as hell
Also, perhaps they could demonstrate to get the federal government to start hiring black people instead of trying to lower the deficit while paying banksters to suck up record profits. This would give black folk a LOT more POWER (unlike any they might get from the food stamps they qualify for by not having jobs), Especially if those people could then afford to buy driver's licenses and gas to vote.
THAT would be disruptive as hell to the oppressors, too. (Maybe that's why we aren't doing it. hmmm)
When you only have 30 people, there are other ways, better ways, to disorganize the oppressor. But just my opinion. Getting jailed and having to pay fines and paying for it in many other ways the rest of your life is a fine price to pay when it is part of a larger strategy that others are working on., such as if entire towns are refusing to use public services, and that is combined with lawsuits and training and other actions, much like was done in the period prior to '65, which resulted in the grudgingly given Rights Act.
But I understand what drove them to it. For too many people they are living like they are in 1965 again. And doing the same thing, while expecting a different result, might not be the best path. They are trying to find the way, and I hope they do.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)enforces the RW stereotypes about the protesters. sad.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)I almost want to say your response deserves to be an OP of its own.
That said, you ask "How did getting arrested disrupt the oppressor? Would you also recommend getting shot so you can deprive them of bullets?" I'll engage each in turn, since the two are quite different in nature.
"How did getting arrested disrupt the oppressor?" While this story may be apocryphal, legend has it that Ralph Waldo Emerson paid a visit to Henry David Thoreau while Thoreau was spending the night in Concord's jail for refusing to pay taxes to support the slaveocrat Mexican-American War. Emerson asked Thoreau, "What are you doing in there?" To which Thoreau famously replied, "What are you doing out there?" This may be the first case in American life and letters of 'serving' someone, as the kids say these days The short answer to your question is that 'getting arrested' did not disrupt the oppressor. Protesting disrupted the oppressor. Perhaps not in material ways but in ways that are not dreamt of in our philosophy. If the two arrests on Sunday turn into a flood of arrests down the line, such that St. Louis jail cells are choking on arrestees, we may look back to these two arrests as the catalysts that indeed 'disrupted the oppressor.'
"Would you also recommend getting shot so you can deprive them [the oppressors] of bullets?" Too many people have already been shot - "How many deaths will it take till he knows that too many people have died?" Your question is really asking about strategy and tactics (I think) and I will say up front that I'm a big fan of 'hit and run' tactics when going up against a materially- and numerically-stronger adversary. So I don't recommend anyone get 'shot.' How could I recommend that, unless I were to volunteer myself to be first in the line of fire? Such would represent the height of arrogance on my part, when I am struggling to manifest humility.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)"Men needed to fill the jails of Spokane" and hundreds of thousands of people responded, I would agree.
That would be part of a larger strategy. I don't think spitting on people was that. I do understand the motivation, and, frankly, it shows the oppressor in action. I seriously doubt that person just went out there to stand and spit on people, and I strongly suspect there was some precipitating event, perhaps a racial slur?
Yet we don't hear about what precipitated the incident, or why the police didn't protect people in the exercise of their rights to free speech.
It is incorrect that "anything" you do is helpful. Anything you do that moves the cause forward is, but not all things do that, and it is very likely that is is more likely the latter case.
I am suggesting that people who protest do so with a knowledge of what it has taken to create change throughout history, and it's not just a bunch of people who think they know better than others jumping up with signs and acting like fucking morons.
It is thoughtful, trained, people of action who motivate others to be the same way. Rosa Parks did not just sit down on a bus. She was part of an NAACP training in consciousness-raising, the kind of training it takes to remove the blinders your oppressor offered you very early in life. The kind of training that was needed when Harriet Tubman was trying to get slaves to leave plantations (lots of similarities with today, I think), the thinking that cause her to say...
"I saved a thousand slaves. I could have saved a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves".
These people standing on the corner are good people desperately trying to free themselves, surrounded by another group who hasn't figured out they are living on the very same plantation.
The kind of display you saw was untrained people acting out. They appear to lack the very thing that will guarantee their success.
Is it possible that a miracle will occur and this will do anything other than make their lives harder, that somehow desire will overcome all? I don't believe in miracles, I believe in deliberate, thoughtful action that CAN BE MEASURED, analyzed, and changed or discarded based on its effect. And there is enough history now to point to what created change and what didn't, and who uses that information and how.
Excuses that just say "if we wait long enough, this will work" are just that, and they will get good people hurt while only a few profit - and that is life on the plantation. Such reasoning is better suited to political parties, their operatives, used car lot operators, pedophiles, banksters, etc.
The rest of us either have to work for a living or just prefer not being professional liars.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)and deeply on the issues raised here, so much so that I am humbled by your contributions.
Just so I'm clear here, though, what exactly would you have the Ferguson Resistance do? Given that any of them can rightly fear that even a routine traffic stop will spell their death or injury at the hands of some unaccountable law enforcement officer, what exactly should they be doing?
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Then one day they might not have to ask these people anything. They are certainly smart and capable enough, but I think they are letting passion get in the way. I lived through a period in the 60's and later when the government provided the opportunity that private business never has. Some of those organizations are still around and still providing some support, but in a very tiny way compared to the need. So today we are in a different age, where people are more on their own.
Note: In the 40s? a priest was assigned to the Basque region of Spain. The priest he was to work for had been murdered by the dictator Franco's soldiers, and he had escaped from prison himself. He set about trying to find ways to help, realized unemployment was a key, and started a technical school in which the curriculum gave important weight to the "Rochdale Principles of Cooperatives". The people who graduated tried working for others, but eventually borrowed money from other villagers and bought a paraffin stove factory - ALL under a bloody dictator with people who were fighting and dying - and today is the Mondragon Cooperatives, with an unemployment rate of this citizen-owed business lower than the rest of the country.
The interesting thing is that this priest COULD have followed the route of the other, helping the "protesters" (villagers fighting the dictator) in the traditional way, giving aid and comfort, maybe even hiding them, and perhaps thus seen as a "criminal", and was killed.
BOTH of those ways are ways to fight your oppressor, but only one leads to something different than what you had. The other just leads to more fighting, perhaps temporary victories "Mission Accomplished", and more fighting. Look at where we live today, for example.
Getting back to your question, however - What if these people kept up a protest but with some protections and training against it becoming something that can be used against them (as it has at the game) and then organize lots of others into figuring out how they could own the assets being used against them today? That could actually mean a combination of gathering some money to buy a business or two - perhaps across the street from your most vocal critics - some boycotts, other actions, and a lot of training.
In the 60's, they had police beating people, mostly black protesters, shooting salt-laden shotguns at them, turning police dogs loose on children and others. They had training sessions to help people mentally prepare how they would deal with those things without turning violent, because they knew that would destroy their movement.
Imagine how much harder that was than having some football fans call you names?
I would have them sit their asses down and start learning about what has worked in movements over the years, figure out what needs to be updated, decide what they want to accomplish, create a plan and put it into motion. There would be lots of input from the people in Ferguson, but you HAVE to have someone with an agenda to step in as a guide, (that's essential) someone they will see as an expert or have faith in or listen to or be led by or whatever.
That would be a Saul Alinsky, Mary "Mother" Jones, Myles Horton, Paulo Freire - today it could be a handful of women, it's hard to predict what form it would take, the real problem is that most "organizers" really aren't of that caliber, and thus wind up unsuccessful at best, getting people hurt for no gain at their worst. Most organizers, frankly, exhibit a mindset framed by the oppressors, and that makes them impotent.
But even that would just be for Ferguson, and the problem ranges from coast to coast. There are so many actors from which such a thing would have to coalesce, many of whom profit from the way things are, and many of whom may not really represent what is coming out of the face they are presenting at the moment. And all the while there are tens of millions of "villagers", most without any historical knowledge to help themselves, with the Harriet Tubmans of the world only able to snag a few
The odds of it happening, I think, are less than some evangelical leading the country over the edge. So most likely we will just see this continue, unless something sparks a change. Or we burn ourselves up.
'Cause I don't see white people lining up in droves to fix this, and they are the only ones who can.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)We can't count on the government, but Mondragon Cooperatives proves people could gather power, both economic and political, for themselves through the cooperative principles outlined in Rochdale, on their own, despite the government.
There are lot of empty storefronts where such efforts could be started. It needs some funding, and it needs trained people who will evangelize it, because everything about it is the antithesis of what people know today. But with a little effort, it could bring some relative freedom to a few more...
A few could continue to march or do other things that keep this in the news, the rest train themselves to take over Ferguson. Which they are doing, somewhat, by voting, but once they get in a long term plan would be very helpful. And maybe they have one, but the actions at the football place give me pause.
ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)Ino
(3,366 posts)"St. Louis can have its racism and white supremacy OR it can have its professional sports. But it CAN'T HAVE BOTH!"
I have no idea what this means. If they were demonstrating at a mall and encountered racists, would you be yelling that St. Louis can have white supremacy or malls, but not both?
The protestors are St. Louisans too, you know? They are Cardinal fans and Rams fans too. They were not fighting "Rams fans" per se, but a handful of people who were attending the game.
WTH does the sports team have to do with this?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)
disrupt operations at area WalMarts and the upscale Frontenac Mall. The efforts were partly successful.
So, yeah, St. Louis can have its white supremacist constabulary or it can have its peaceful shopping. But it can't have both.
So the fact that protesters were chanting "Arrest, Indict. Send that killer cop to jail. The whole damned system is guilty as hell" (empahsis added) means only that they were fighting "a handful of people who were attending the game"? OK.
Ino
(3,366 posts)"Rams fans and Ferguson protesters fought" ... your whole opening post mentioned only the altercation between protestors and people at the Ram's game. So that's what my word "fighting" was referring to... not to the protestors' chant or their overall intent or police brutality or anything else. Now you are introducing a new topic and then trying to humble me with misplaced sarcasm.
I am white. I support the protestors. I would not be combative or upset if they were demonstrating at the grocery store, or anywhere else. I would be HAPPY to see them.
"St. Louis can have its racism and white supremacy OR it can have its professional sports. But it CAN'T HAVE BOTH!"
I guess you meant the racists in St. Louis can't have peaceful professional sports watching... not that St. Louis can't have professional sports?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)showed that 62% of white St. Louisians think that Wilson's extra-judicial execution of Brown was 'justified.'
From those poll results, I think one can pretty much fairly say that white St. Louis is profoundly and thoroughly racist. That may explain why St. Louis County DA McCulloch feels no need to recuse himself, even though the real and perceived conflicts of interest are so numerous as to make any decision reached by McCulloch's Grand Jury short of indictment for 2nd Degree Murder laughable.
I'm glad you support the protesters.
Obviously, people in St. Louis can have both professional sports and a racist constabulary. What's changed now is that the victims of said racist constabulary aren't staying silent about it any longer. That's why I call the protesters 'heroes.'
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Wow, hope you didn't pull a muscle with that stretch.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)racism. It was no stretch. Although you seem to be stretching ingenuity to its limits.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You don't know if that's why they agree that it was a justified shoot, none at all.
You seem to be the one throwing the racist card here against people you know nothing about, so, what's that make you?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)American law enforcement (St. Louis-style) at its finest.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but you're labeling those 62% who think it was a good shoot as racist without any proof of such.
As I said, you seem to like labeling people you know nothing about, or what their motive is for agreeing that it was a good shoot as racists, so, what's that make you?
Ino
(3,366 posts)it would be 100%, not 62%!
Poll is based on responses from "604 St. Louis County residents". I don't know if you are from the St. Louis area or not, but the vague "St. Louis County" troubles me. Chesterfield, Ladue, Clayton are all in St. Louis County, and very conservative well-to-do areas. I would not be surprised at 62% if that is where they got their equally-troubling TINY sample.
What IS surprising is that, according to the same poll, 35% of African-Americans thought the shooting was justified. What is up with that?! Are they the same conservative well-to-do as the Whites who were polled? Or... you tell me! I find this flabbergasting.
The poll is not tallied up with regard to political affiliation. It may not be so much a Black/White issue as a Democratic/Republican one. As set forth in this article...
http://thedailybanter.com/2014/09/many-white-people-st-louis-county-think-mike-brown-deserved-die/
...and this one (although they are referring to a different poll)...
http://www.people-press.org/2014/08/18/stark-racial-divisions-in-reactions-to-ferguson-police-shooting/
...and this one...
http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/racial-divide-ferguson-story-stupid-white-people-vs-everyone-else/
St. Louis as a whole (along with Kansas City & Columbia) votes Democratic consistently, always! But there are those pockets of conservative racists within the StL area. So it's important to know from where exactly did they get their little sample. It is NOT fair to say "white St. Louis is profoundly and thoroughly racist."
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)have said "'White St. Louis County' (and not 'White St. Louis') is profoundly and thoroughly racist." As I understand it, the city of St. Louis constitutes an entirely different 'county' (?) to itself, distinct from the surrounding 'St. Louis County'. That sounds a bit confusing and absurd to me even as I write it, so I apologize if I'm getting it wrong.
I'm not an expert in polling methodologies or demographics. But when I see an online publication of the stature of Salon.com reference a poll, I tend to remember the forest of summary results while ignoring, perhaps at my peril, the trees that make up that forest.
Thanks for taking the time to analyze the data in such detail.
Ino
(3,366 posts)Then there is St. Louis County, made up of many dozens of little townships around the City of St. Louis... everything is referred to as "the Greater St. Louis area." But many just say "St. Louis" to refer to "the Greater St. Louis area," myself included.
I would not say "White St. Louis County is profoundly and thoroughly racist" either. 62% of a small sample, from perhaps a upscale conservative part of the county, does not warrant a thorough indictment of the entire St. Louis area.
Now if you want to say "White St. Louis area police are profoundly and thoroughly racist" I would nod. The profession attracts way too many power-tripping liars, thugs, and bullies. Sexist, as well. Or they are willing to lie/fabricate evidence/etc. to protect their fellow officers who are that way. I do not trust ANY cops in ANY city.
Now... the question in the poll which yielded the 62% you refer to was, "From what you have heard, was the shooting of an African-American teen by law enforcement in Ferguson, Missouri justified?" There are many nice people who are not hard-core malicious racists, but just innocent-minded types, not very cognizant of the way things really are, who think the police are upstanding & honest, who have not read ALL about the case but rather just picked up tidbits here and there, who think things like, "Well, the police must have had a reason to stop him/shoot him. Didn't he rob a convenience store? He was a big guy! Why would the police lie?" And so they would answer that question with a yes. That is not profound racism, IMO. (Especially considering 35% of African-Americans also answered yes!) If they were more educated about all the facts in this case, if they had seen all the you-tube videos of police lies & brutality, they may well say "no" or at least "I don't know." They are not beyond redemption. How might they be enlightened?
I agree there are many disgusting loser racists out there, and they may be a lost cause. The racist, brutal, & killer cops should be held to account, and I don't mean a paid vacation, or being allowed to resign, or having the PD settle cases with taxpayer money. I want prison terms, complete PD overhauls, eliminate the military equipment, and better training.
cprise
(8,445 posts)We had already mentioned sports venues and malls. However, I personally do not go to either of those places. The only places I ever go to on a regular basis are the grocery store and library. So they are important places for me. The library I go to, a little store-front, has few people there. But the grocery store would be a great place to demonstrate, wouldn't it? Lots of people? And I added, "or anywhere else." I haven't a clue what are you getting at. Grocery stores aren't important? They are not a priority for you? What??
How exactly did I humble him by mentioning a grocery store? I didn't wag my finger at him.
I swear...
cprise
(8,445 posts)I think an escapist entertainment venue is a far better location for a protest, especially (in this case) if its associated with a form of regional pride.
Ino
(3,366 posts)WAS personally about me and where I go. Four sentences all beginning with "I" makes it about me.
cprise
(8,445 posts)...indicated that you were making the topic about yourself. Its also ironic that your other posts were criticizing the sampling statistics of a poll.
Ino
(3,366 posts)"White St. Louis is profoundly and completely racist." -- that makes it personal. KC made the topic about me, a white St. Louisan. Am I not allowed to reply to that? Am I not allowed to say who I am?
Out of all the the comments in this thread, THIS is what you zero in on?
I find nothing "ironic" about questioning a poll sampling. I don't blindly swallow poll statistics any more than I swallow whatever the "official police report" is. Critical thinking is important. Try it sometime. Also try not taking things out of context and putting your own weird spin on them.
This conversation too stupid to continue. Welcome to my ignore list.
Throd
(7,208 posts)I'm sure they will sign up for your newsletter once you have piqued their interest.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)yelling "F*** YOU, YOU WHITE MOTHERF******S".
I'm sure people are flocking to the banner of that racist.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)With these tactics, I'm sure public opinion will swing their way in no time.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It looks to me like there were agitators on both sides. Unfortunately it reminds me a bit of the early protests in Ferguson where 2 or 3 people came in and caused problems, but most of the people were fine.
I have support freedom of speech and have no problem if they want to hold a flag upside down. I support the cause of bringing the officer who shot Michael Brown to justice. However the one woman (right before the 2 minute mark) was dragging the flag on the ground. That I think is terribly disrespectful.
Protests like this hurt the cause more than help it.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)people (the antiseptically named 'Rams fans' of the story) who have problems with the flag being flown upside down probably have no problem whatosever with what the killer cop did and may, indeed, support it, if the polling results are to be believed.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)For all you know, they may have been pissed about the disrespect towards the flag, I would be also.
And for that 17 year old to be spitting on people? She deserved to be arrested, and she's lucky that she wasn't picking her teeth up off the ground.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)no provocation given.
Question: did the antiseptically-named 'Rams fan' who tried to yank the flag out of the protester's hands get arrested? Should he have been? Or are you one of those 'Free speech for me, but not for thee' types? I think we all already know the answer to that.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)at one of the fans, how do you know that he didn't grab it to prevent injury?
Of course I'm just speculating here, just like you, as neither of us were there.
And I do believe in the 1st Amend for all, but when it escalates to violence, then all bets are off.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)taking the flag off of one of the protesters, a fact that is corroborated by the news reporter's version of the sequence of events.
But you listen to your sources, I'll listen to mine.
You say you 'believe in the 1st Amend for all but when it escalates to violence, then all bets are off.' But, according to you, if that Rams fan seized the flag from the protester, that wasn't violence so you don't have a problem with it. See, you really are one of those 'Free speech for me, but not for thee' types. Exacctly as I predicted and no surprise.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I said if the protester used the flag staff as a weapon, then the fan had every right to take it away, if he just took it without provocation, then that's wrong.
Why he wasn't arrested, I don't know and neither do you, you, nor I were there.
Spitting on someone is assault and battery, that's why the 17 year old girl was arrested, and as I indicatied, she's damn lucky she wasn't picking her teeth up off the ground.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)bet you're just fine with that under your 'free speech' regimen.
You just think the young black woman spit on someone because . . . well, just because she's naturally a spitter.
Right?
You can't conceive of any set of circumstances that might have provoked the young woman to spit can you? In your mind, she came to that protest determined to spit and, by God, that's what she did.
Pathetic. But predictable.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)No, I'm not fine with the N word, but even if she was called that, it still doesn't excuse her spitting on someone, that's very clearly against the law, it's called Assault and Battery.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)are racist, that would be you, without any proof of such.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)The protest itself maybe right and supported by people, but the actions of a few can always spoil things for the many. Clearly a few people let their emotions get the best of them.
Causing problems by smacking people around and dragging a flag on the ground is wrong. What the cop did to Michael Brown was wrong.
It will be interesting to see if someone has more detail footage of this. I saw several people in that shot that had their cell phones out, so I have to believe (and I think you will agree with me on this one) that there has to be additional footage of this somewhere. You might check Youtube to see if someone has posted it.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)for digging up any additional footage. If you want to, be my guest.
Because dragging a flag on the ground is wrong, just like extra-judicially executing Michael Brown was wrong.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)you've already tried and convicted the cop of executing Michael Brown before the official investigation is complete.
Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, at least I'm willing to wait for the official report before I declare my opinion of guilt or innocence.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)guilty of anything.
You're agenda is so transparent as to hardly merit comment.
Just so we're clear: Wilson didn't just execute Michael Brown, Wilson extra-judicially executed Brown under color of the law. Only question in my mind (and it's really one for attorneys to debate) is whether Wilson's actions rise to the level of first-degree premeditated murder or whether they rest at the level of second-degree murder (lacking premeditation but still with intent to kill).
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You think you have me all figured out? How? I don't know you, you don't know me.
Unlike you, I'm fair minded, I wait for the evidence and official report to be released before I make up my mind, you, OTOH, in your obvious hatred, have tried and convicted him without all the evidence being put forth.
Your agenda is so transparent as to hardly merit comment.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Clearly there was violence going on. That clip had one instance of it. My point about the video is we are only seeing one small part of it for a minute and it is hard to say whether it is representative of the entire situation. I'm sure there was violence on the other side as well (those who are anti-Ferguson). My point is violence only leads to more violence.
Is the Ferguson protest non-violent or violent?