White House: Nazis shouldn't get Social Security (UPDATE)

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By RICHARD LARDNER, DAVID RISING and RANDY HERSCHAFT

WASHINGTON (AP) — Former Nazis should not be collecting Social Security benefits as they age overseas, the White House said Monday, responding to an Associated Press investigation that revealed millions of dollars have been paid to war-crimes suspects and former SS guards forced out of the U.S.

"Our position is we don't believe these individuals should be getting these benefits," White House spokesman Eric Schultz told reporters in Chicago. He did not say whether or how the government might end the payments.

AP reported Sunday that dozens of Nazi suspects collected benefits after leaving the United States. The payments flowed through a legal loophole that gave the Justice Department leverage to persuade Nazi suspects to leave. If they agreed to go, or simply fled before deportation, they could keep their Social Security, according to interviews and internal U.S. government records.

The White House comments came after a senior House Democrat demanded the Obama administration investigate the benefit payments. Rep. Carolyn Maloney of New York requested the inquiry on Monday in letters to the inspectors general at the Justice Department and Social Security Administration.

FULL story at link. UPDATE is the 7 profiles link below.



ADVANCE FOR 9:00 P.M. EDT, SUNDAY OCT. 19 AND THEREAFTER - FILE - In this undated file photo, a machine gun is seen over the parade ground at the Sachsenhausen Nazi concentration camp in Oranienburg, Germany. An Associated Press investigation found dozens of suspected Nazi war criminals and SS guards collected millions of dollars in Social Security payments after being forced out of the United States. (AP Photo, File)


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141020/eu--nazi-social_security-abridged-231c88b8b8.html

---

See also this LBN story from earlier today: Expelled Nazis got millions in Social Security: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014923007


UPDATE: Brief Profiles of a Few Ex-Nazis Getting Benefits:

This undated handout photo provided by the National Archives and Records Administration shows Martin Hartmann. Hartmann reached an agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice in 2007 to return to Germany when it was found out he was a Nazi SS guard... View Full Caption AP


Since 1979, at least 38 of 66 suspected Nazi war criminals and SS guards forced out of the United States collected millions of dollars in American Social Security payments, an Associated Press investigation has found.

Brief profiles of seven of them:

———

MARTIN HARTMANN

Hartmann is one of the most recent suspects to leave the U.S.

He volunteered for the SS in 1943 and was assigned to one of the Death's Head battalions. Those were the units that ran the Third Reich's system of death and concentration camps.

He served as a guard at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp outside Berlin.

He was stripped of his U.S. citizenship in 2007 after reaching an agreement with the Justice Department. In the agreement, he admitted to his Nazi past even though records obtained by the AP showed he disclosed his SS service to American authorities before he entered the United States.

Hartmann, 95, lives in Berlin.

THIS FULL story at link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/profiles-nazis-benefits-26315629

[tularetom]

1. Is dick cheney collecting social security?

Just wondering.

[jmowreader]

2. Possibly

You must have worked 40 quarters (10 years) in the civilian sector to be eligible for Social Security. He's got a lot of federal service (I was going to say "federal time," but so far he hasn't been ordered to serve any of that, even though he should) that's under a different pension system; if he worked 10 years in the civilian sector, he's eligible.

[Cleita]

5. I had a filthy rich employer who did take his SS and used it to pay

one of his housekeepers. He never saw anything wrong with it.

[Nye Bevan]

11. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Presumably he paid SS taxes all his working life. Then he got to reap the benefits. That is why SS still exists in pretty much its original form; everyone who pays into the system benefits from it.

[Cleita]

12. It wasn't full pay. The housekeeper was an undocumented woman

from Central America, who was a live in. He gave her the money from his SS under the table. Creative accounting kept it off the books so there was no tax returns for FICA which he should have filed and paid. The woman sometimes worked twenty hour days if they were entertaining and often didn't even get days off for weeks at a time. I should have reported him but that might have gotten her deported and me fired.

Anyway many very wealthy people don't take SS even though they earned it because they feel it should go to those who do need it and keep the fund solvent.

[Nye Bevan]

17. To be honest, even if I won the lottery I would still claim the Social Security that I have earned.

I would prefer to give generously to charities than to effectively give money back to the government and trust them to make the best use of it.

[SamKnause]

19. Exactly !!!

[tabasco]

3. I think's that something we can all get onboard with

'cept for the pukes, of course.

[Cleita]

4. I dunno. This seems like a slippery slope.

If they earned the benefits, can we legally take them from them? Who else might be not deemed worthy of collecting earned benefits? It could be way for the Republicans to start denying earned benefits to a variety of beneficiaries, maybe former Viet Cong, formerly undocumented aliens who have gained amnesty or dreamer status? Talk me down on this.

On edit: maybe I could be on board with giving the benefits to survivor victims and their descendants as long as the Nazi is eligible to receive benefits.

[gerogie2]

6. Yes, This would start the exclusion of anybody for whatever reason

During the Bush administration Congress passed a law saying if someone had a criminal warrant out for their arrest then SSA could cancel their payments. Of course, this lead to thousands of false positives making some seniors homeless. If you paid into SS while employed and you meet the financial qualifications for being eligible you should receive it no matter what.

[happyslug]

21. That is still the law, if you are in a "Public Institution" you get no Social Security.

A "Public Institution" is a term that is defined by the same act to include Prisons, Jails Mental Health Hospitals and anything else where you are confined for more then 30 days. The Judges know of this law, thus leave a lot of people out of Jail on their own recognize do to the fact they are on Social Security and if they do NOT make bail, they lose their source of income (and any ability to post a bond or pay a fine etc).

If a felony warrant is out for your arrest, you can NOT get Social Security, but only if you know of the warrant (most Warrants do NOT have the Defendant's Social Security Number so hard to trace for denial of Social Security Benefits).


"Public Institution"

Sec. 1611. [42 U.S.C. 1382]

Limitation On Eligibility Of Certain Individuals

(e)

(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraphs (B), (C), (D), (E), and (G), no person shall be an eligible individual or eligible spouse for purposes of this title with respect to any month if throughout such month he is an inmate of a public institution.


(4)(A) No person shall be considered an eligible individual or eligible spouse for purposes of this title with respect to any month if during such month the person is—

(i) fleeing to avoid prosecution, or custody or confinement after conviction, under the laws of the place from which the person flees, for a crime, or an attempt to commit a crime, which is a felony under the laws of the place from which the person flees, or, in jurisdictions that do not define crimes as felonies, is punishable by death or imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year regardless of the actual sentence imposed; or

(ii) violating a condition of probation or parole imposed under Federal or State law.

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/ssact/title16b/1611.htm

[woo me with science]

9. Thank you.

I should have read your reply first.

[Recursion]

16. Agreed

I don't like where this logic goes

[davidpdx]

18. The other thing I noticed is they used the social security benefits as a carrot to get them to leave

I'm not sure who's wonderful idea that was (probably the Bush Administration), but saying one thing to get them to leave and then turning around and saying "well we changed our minds" is kind of ridiculous. I personally would like to see them stripped of the right to have the benefits, however it sounds like the person who made the deal screwed us.

[happyslug]

20. Survivors who came to the US and worked and paid into SS gets SS

Under the Social Security Act anyone who earns sufficient money under the Act is eligible for Social Security. Under the act it is ILLEGAL to collect that money outside of the US. The big exception is if a treaty exists that permits such payments.

The US has such a Treaty with Germany and Israel, thus a Nazi or a Survivor who came to the US after WWII and worked and paid into Social Security, can move back to Germany (or in case of the Survivor) move to Israel and collect Social Security. Is is under such treaties that such people are collecting Social Security and like all treaties they will have to be renegotiated with the other country that signed the treaty.

This has been the law for a long time. The present Treaty with Germany was signed in 1976 and came into force in 1979. If I remember right they was an earlier treaty governing Social Security but the 1979 treaty replaced it and is presently the one in force.


Here is the list of Countries with Social Security Treaties with the US, notice Germany was signed in 1979):

http://www.ssa.gov/international/agreements_overview.html

Please note, the above is a series of agreements directed to the EU and reducing double payment of social security taxes as opposed to benefits. Older treaties also covered PAYMENT to people living in those countries, but who had worked in the USA.

List #1, Countries where you can live and get Social Security:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist1.htm

List #2 "If you are a citizen of one of the countries listed below, you may receive your payments as long as you are outside the U.S., unless you are receiving your payments as a dependent or survivor. In that case, there are additional requirements you have to meet."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist2.htm

List #3: "Your payments will continue even if you have been outside the U.S. for more than six full calendar months, if you are a resident of a country with which the U.S. has a Social Security agreement. Currently, these countries are:"

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist3.htm

List #4: "Your payments will continue even if you have been outside the U.S. for more than six full calendar months, if you are a citizen of one of the countries listed below, and the worker on whose record your benefits are based lived in the U.S. for at least 10 years or earned at least 40 credits under the U.S. Social Security system. If you are receiving benefits as a dependent or survivor, there are additional requirements you have to meet."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist4.htm

List # 5, "Work by some U.S. citizens and residents outside the U.S. is exempt from U.S. Social Security as a result of international Social Security agreements the U.S. has concluded with the following countries:"

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist5.htm

List #6: List where Direct Deposit is available:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/countrylist6.htm

You can NOT get Social Security Benefits if you are living in Cuba or North Korea, and there are restrictions (incluidng picking up your check at the US Embassy) in Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia,
Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan and Vietnam

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf

Under "Social Security Treaties" the following is noted (this is under the Department of State's "Treaties in Force" list:

SOCIAL SECURITY

Agreement on the pension insurance of certain employees of the United States Army.
Signed at Bonn September 11, 1970.
Entered into force June 1, 1972;
retroactive to November 1, 1950.

23 UST 638; TIAS 7326. GERMANY — SOCIAL SECURITY
Agreement on social security, with final protocol.

Signed at Washington January 7, 1976.

Entered into force December 1, 1979.
30 UST 6099; TIAS 9542; 1177 UNTS 257. GERMANY — SOCIAL SECURITY
Administrative agreement for the implementation of the agreement on social security of January 7, 1976.
Signed at Washington June 21, 1978. Entered into force October 30, 1979;effective December 1, 1979.
30 UST 6150; TIAS 9542; 1177 UNTS 270.
Amendments
October 2, 1986 (TIAS 12115).
March 6, 1995.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/218912.pdf

[Historic NY]

7. Nazi family members survivors shouldn't either.

[woo me with science]

8. NO. ABSOLUTELY NO. We have organizations of Justice to punish crimes.

It is an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS precedent to begin deciding who can and can't participate in social safety nets or receive government benefits based on things like this. In a country that is building a prison INDUSTRY and trying to eliminate social safety nets, suggesting that crimes can negate a lifetime of paying into Social Security is an extremely dangerous precedent. It is a weird thing to even be considering in this case, unless there is a motive down the road.

IMO this stinks to high heaven. Pedophiles will be next, because Americans can get behind stripping their retirement, too. Then murderers. Then people who have been convicted of domestic violence... Any felony, then only the really bad misdemeanors...

[Ykcutnek]

13. Yes, punishing mass murderers is a slippery slope to punishing the lowly 3-victim axe murderers

and kiddie fiddlers.

We must not embrace this madness.

Stand up for Nazis before they come for you next!

[woo me with science]

14. And there's the crude appeal to emotion.

Yep, that's how it's done. How could anyone oppose punishing a NAZI?!

Perfect example of what nashville-brook superbly summarized when we were talking in this thread about tactics of manipulative corporate propaganda. That's exactly what the propaganda is designed to do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5688165
37. eggsactly -- the hope is to keep us in our lower brain functions - limbic systems rather than cerebral cortex.

Your attempt to stir up horrified conclusions that I don't want to punish a NAZI or a "kiddie diddler" is exactly the kind of crude, emotional thinking that authoritarian corporatists want and are deliberately trying to orchestrate. A citizenry so dumbed down that they don't even understand how crime and punishment are supposed to work constitutionally within our justice system and will eagerly salivate at *any* extension of the power of the state to punish, as long as it starts out against someone who is bad enough.

What you just wrote here is useful to the discussion IMO only as an illustration of how base, deliberately emotional, and manipulative the Third Way arguments that get repeated here really are.

And no, I won't be feeding this further.

[notadmblnd]

10. did they work in this country and pay into it?

[rug]

15. Never one to duck controversy.

[Sunlei]

22. USA took in how many nazis? 10k? 20k? no SS for SS & deport them if any are still here.

also check the immigration papers for fraud.

White House: nazis shouldn't get Social Security