Private autopsy claims Vonderrit Myers shot while fleeing
Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch
A preliminary, private autopsy of Vonderrit D. Myers Jr. shows that six of the eight shots hit the back of his legs, and a fatal round struck him between his right eyebrow and his ear, a pathologist said Thursday.
Dr. Cyril H. Wecht said that his examination of the body, a visit to the site of the shooting and witness statements conveyed to him via lawyers for the Myers family led him to conclude that Myers was shot Oct. 8 while fleeing up a steep hill. All but one of the wounds hit Myers in his legs, and several had upward trajectories. Wecht said that he was unable to determine the order in which the shots struck Myers, but said that the leg wound would have felled the 18-year-old immediately. The head wound would have rendered him unconscious.
Jerryl Christmas, one of the Myers family lawyers, said that witnesses have told their investigator that Myers was fleeing, and that he was "begging for his life" before the officer walked up and delivered the final shot. Christmas and lawyer Jermaine Wooten said that they believe that crippling leg shot came between the fourth and seventh shots, and that the head wound was the final shot.
They deny police claims that Myers had a gun and fired at least three shots at the officer before he returned fire.
Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/private-autopsy-claims-vonderrit-myers-shot-while-fleeing/article_ab007919-9bf9-50e2-8dd2-8f5b45088440.html
In news from the other extra-judicial St. Louis police death squad execution.
I hope the U.S. Department of Justice is keeping a close eye on this case as well. It stinks to high heaven.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)people want them to rather they will only proceed if there is evidence of a federal law being violated by the officer.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)shoot.
I'm saying that this shooting has many questions that stink like a rotten fish, starting with why the identity of the police officer has yet to be released. WTF?
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)You don't get any free shots in gun play.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Most people would classify someone who shot three times at police is a danger.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)he or she be justified in shooting in self-defense?
Why are you defending cops who are doubling as mercenaries?
Are you a cop?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Blacks, white, women, men, Asian, Mexican, gay, straight, police officer, school teacher, Muslim, atheist.
I have found people who judge entires groups and stereotype them to be exceptionally ignorant and a detriment to a civilized society.
branford
(4,462 posts)Moreover, Myers possession of a gun would have been illegal since he was on bail (for an illegal weapons charge) and supposed to be under house arrest.
The fact that the officer was on a special duty job is completely immaterial. The employment was perfectly legal, very commonplace and he retained all powers, duties and obligations as when he's officially on-duty.
Your self-defense theory is also quite odd. The family alleges Myers was only armed with a sandwich. They implicitly acknowledge that if Myers possessed a gun, any criminal case against the officer or civil suit against the city becomes untenable.
Travelman
(708 posts)It was something from the private security firm, but it's not like he was in some unmarked Toyota.
Myers was shot to death by an off-duty police officer who was on patrol for a private residents’ association in the Shaw neighborhood Oct. 8. The officer saw Myers and two other young men run as soon as they saw him. The officer, [bwho was driving a marked private security car and wearing his city police uniform, chased the young men.]
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)wearing a police uniform and driving a police vehicle. That's irrelevant as to whether Myers could see and understand that he was a police officer and not some brigand trying to stick him up. (That's giving the police the benefit of the doubt that Myers actually was armed and fired a weapon.)
If Myers did not know that the officer was a police officer -- for whatever reason -- then Myers was entitled to self defense, right? i mean, even the worst convicted offenders still have a right to self defense, don't they? Even if Myers was not legally entitled to be carrying a weapon, he still had a right to self-defense, right? Or do convicted defendants lose any right to defend themselves?
So here's the question(s): did the unnamed and unidentified officer identify himself to Myers as a police officer and did Myers understand that identification?
branford
(4,462 posts)Myers family claims doesn't even allege he fired in self-defense. In fact, they still maintain he was only armed with a sandwich!
As for self-defense, as a general rule, you are only entitled to employ lethal self-defense if you reasonably believe your in danger of death or serious bodily harm and you're not otherwise engaged in illegal activity.
Given that Myers was apparently in possession of an illegal firearm and in violation of his house arrest bail condition, and that it strains credulity to even allege that a uniformed officer in a marked car could be construed as a deadly "brigand," and with no evidence that the officer did anything but approach Myers to investigate, a self-defense scenario is, at best, ludicrous.
A criminal matter is not a game of "what if." If you believe the officer committed murder, you need evidence, both in support of the allegations and to disprove opposing evidence, not just theories and a righteous hatred of the police.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)question this officer's -- what was his name and badge number again? -- account.
Honestly? I don't know what to believe.
But here's what I do believe: if a police officer wants citizens to obey his or her orders as a police officer, then that police officer had damned well better make sure citizens know that he or she is a police officer. There are 300 million firearms in private hands in this country and, the public health epidemic aspects of that little fact aside, the potential for tragic outcomes is extremely high in routine interactions between police and John Q. Public, even without the crisis of legitimacy currently on display in St. Louis.
branford
(4,462 posts)I think the point of its release was to demonstrate that Myers may have been fleeing, and therefore make him more sympathetic. I would be more impressed with the report if it offered at least some clear support to the family's execution theory, but the expert appeared very careful not to get embroiled in that allegation. Nevertheless, if Myers fired at the officer, the officer was fully entitled to shoot at Myers even while running away as he would be considered a demonstrable and dangerous threat to the community.
I unquestionably agree that an officer should always vocally and clearly announce his or her presence. Despite that good advice, Myers would still not be entitled to fire upon the officer given the known circumstances, and that's likely why the family is maintaining he wasn't armed at all.
I assume the investigation is still ongoing, and more evidence needs to be released. However, if our goal is to eliminate racial disparities in the criminal justice system, prudence would dictate that our examples of racial bias be clear and unequivocal. The Myers shooting thus far appears to strongly favor the police account, and if so, use of it by activists weakens their overall credibility on the issue.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)...at the same time, you just run away and twist and shoot at the same time.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)then that would mean the kid did have a gun which would kinda sink the whole "police planted the evidence" that some people are claiming happened.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)I am just pointing out that the evidence is going to have to show the officer did something wrong on a federal level is all or the DOJ will probably leave the case in the hands of the state.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Police are allowed to shoot a fleeing felony suspect if they pose a threat to the officer or the general public.
Myers shot at a cop, and then MAY, and I stress MAY have turned to run, that's all that's needed for the officer to shoot him.
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)anyone else with a government ID is nearly as immune as a Wall Street banker
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)
sheshe2
(83,708 posts)Myers was fleeing and probably down from the shots to his legs. The final shot makes it EXCESSIVE FORCE and murder.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)If that is true, life needs to on the table.
branford
(4,462 posts)then the officer was more than entitled to return fire. These forensics should easily be independently confirmable.
As indicated by the family's attorney's statements, they fully realize that if Myers possessed and fired the gun, it was almost certainly a good shoot, unknown witness allegations notwithstanding.
The number of shots fired by the officer, or the fact that Myers might have been fleeing after firing, would be largely immaterial. He would have been a proven and lethal danger that had to be stopped.
There's a reason why discussion of Myers has largely quieted. It appears to be nothing like the Brown shooting.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)unnamed pig delivered the head shot that killed him?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)unarmed black men aren't allowed to be afraid. but armed white men....they can always be afraid enough to kill. especially black men.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)makes me incredibly sad that we are not that far removed from the days of strange fruit. Words can hardly convey my sadness at the thought of the terror Myers (much like Mike Brown) must have been feeling in those final moments. I can't even say I'm that 'angry' about it. Bush caused me to feel utter, blinding rage but this (Brown's and Myer's deaths) seems to cut even deeper. Not sure why exactly, save that as a former teacher I'm well aware both men could easily have been my students under different circumstances.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)america has NEVER reconciled its racist past, and that's why we still have problems today. it is beyond sad 
i never imagined we would be HERE in 2014, where a a person's skin color determines his right to life i am glad my father is not here to see this because it would FURTHER break his heart
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)believe that reparations are due not only our African American citizens but also our Native American brothers and sisters for the massive thefts (of labor and land respectively) that occurred. I realize this is something of a pipe dream, but no less a pipe dream than my hopes for a Democratic Socialist revolution.
I'd start a thread around this issue, save for my fear it would be drowned out by the "Why should my taxes have to pay for reparations? I never held any slaves or stole any land" symphony that I'm certain would ensue. No matter that 90% of what we call 'white privilege' derives from those thefts (if not all of it) and that we know that white privilege exists today. Knowing something is wrong and doing something to end it are two entirely different matters.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)AMEN!
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)When you make statements like that and assume people are guilty before you've even heard both sides, you lose all credibility. You've made it clear that you don't like police officers, but that doesn't mean they are all lawless thugs.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)that 'both sides' BS is getting old and tired. Most are getting that way it seems.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I have a lot of friends who are police officers, and they are good people who have my respect.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)but I beg to disagree. They are murdering, robbing, lying thugs with the power of life and death that has gone to their heads. They have my disrespect. In these recent cases, they ARE NOT upholding the law, they are the lawbreakers/executioners without giving benefit of a trial. Nothing you say or think will change that, NOTHING.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That pretty much says it all, so there's no need for us to continue with this. I apologize for interrupting you.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)And on that day the cops become a necessary, life saving, heavenly gift to our society.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)For some people, cops are always the bad guys until they need one.
delta17
(283 posts)Easy to badmouth until you really need one.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)when I don't need one while driving or walking while........that's the point. Sure in a violent and depraved society such as this, police are needed. Yet when their focus for safety remains on the 'privileged' class, I only have seen, lately, life taking or beating to with in an inch of life.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)How many of these friends who you greatly respect has turned a fellow officer in for misconduct?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)they are complicit and deserve no respect.
kath
(10,565 posts)That officer CAN NO LONGER BE CALLED A "GOOD COP"' but is now part of the problem.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)DO look the other way. FACT.
drray23
(7,627 posts)They are your friends so you are not interacting with them during policing situations. I assume they are not barking orders at you when you guys interact.
Sadly that is apparently the norm when they are dealing with citizens in the course of their job. I have seen it happen whenever they make an arrest even for routine situations. they are trained to assert control and apparently this means not listening and barking orders rather than defuse situations. We have countless videos showing that.
Personally, i would never socially mingle with policemen because i am not sure if they would ever loose it and blow up.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)as he/she has indicated to me that they have no no clue as to what any of them would do if they knew a fellow officer violated a citizen's civil rights. He/she in fact does not know if they are good people or not.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)In that one "side" has gun shot residue on his hands, shirt and crotch...
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)them arrest bad cops.
Until then, as far as I am concerned, the constabulary forces in this country are largely a mercenary gang with guns, operating under color of the law.
marym625
(17,997 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)and the other one is not?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)that the officer "mistook" for a gun? you folks are just too transparent.
Store video shows St Louis teen buying a sandwich with friends just minutes before he was killed by off-duty police officer - and there is NO visible sign he had a gun
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2787491/Surveillance-video-shows-Vonderrit-Myers-buying-sandwich-friends-just-minutes-killed-duty-police-officer-no-visible-sign-gun.html
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)And before you start ranting no I am not claiming he did have one nor am I am claiming he didnt because I wasnt there.
If I recall though I think I read that they did recover a weapon but I havent heard if they have linked it to the kid for sure.
branford
(4,462 posts)I don't know if Myers had a sandwich, but the forensic evidence appears to conclusively show that he did in fact possess an illegal firearm that was actually fired. They also recovered the gun and shell casings.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/vonderrit-myers-case-cops-say-shot-teen-had-gunshot-residue-n225761
Even if the officer saw a sandwich that he mistook for a gun, and approached Myers to investigate, that would likely be sufficient probable cause to investigate, and in absolutely no circumstances would justify Myers firing on the officer.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)Edit: After all those would be alot harder to plant than prints on the gun itself and it might put to rest some of the errr.......conspiracy theories currently floating around.
branford
(4,462 posts)However, that's why I generally focus on the GSR on not only Myers hands, but pockets and waistband. It more readily eliminates a throw-down gun theory than simple recovery of the firearm and casings.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)according to who. Won't wash, spin and lies which the system is perfecting into an art form of murder.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)If you want to be considered more than conspiracy theory crackpot you need to start backing it up with proof just like the police are having to prove their claims, case or whatever you want to call it with evidence.
I grant you its possible the cops could have planted the gun somehow andmanaged to figure a way to plant gunpowder residue and its possible they are lying but alot of things are possible but just because something is possible doesnt mean it will happen or did happen.
For example its possible I will one day hit a megamillion jackpot but is it likely? Not really.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 24, 2014, 10:52 AM - Edit history (1)
like so many on here. But, you are not convincing in your defense of police procedures, proof and 'conclusive' evidence. They just cannot be believed anymore on any level unless they just come out and admit the murders they are committing today in this racist climate. That I will believe. That's not a conspiracy theory. My proof? With all the lies, spin and lack of accountability by 'officers of the law' my proof is the behavior of these 'officers of the law, and not as in zimpigs case and trial, in so many disparate locations in amerikkka these days.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)Going on and on and on and on claiming the police did something wrong and yet furnishing zero evidence founded in hard science doesnt prove your theory heaven and thats all your doing right now and its making you sound like those nutjobs who keep going on about Obama and his birth certificate.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)just have to be able to understand it and my response(s) have nothing to do with the POTUS. I believe he's an american and capable unlike so many. You are entitled to believe what you want and you can think what you will about me. I could care less. It doesn't change the facts of police behavior toward minorities in the new Jim Crow Era black people are experiencing today.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)younger brother who has been brainwashed by his so called church who claims the end of days are near and the signs are "all around us" and when asked what signs he says he cannot tell me because I "wouldnt understand".
I mean come on if you have something concrete like video or audio recordings that proves the police are lying post them but enough with the Orly Taitz impression as its just not going to work.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 24, 2014, 09:50 AM - Edit history (1)
and all the people who ride into the sunset on a white horse with their mate sitting in front of them, white picket fence behind them. Gawd bless em.......and no I don't relate to your brother and the things he chooses to believe, that is your opinion, only, about what I sound like. You have your own 'sound' and it is like a lot of people in this country...... Scream about needing proof of something staring them in the face that is 1000ft tall and growing. The murder of black males and the general harassment of black people male and female is becoming more apparent everyday with the proof of that statement in personal cameras people are carrying around in their 'smart' phones. This type of activity by white police officers against black males and females( I remember that horrendous beating of the woman in California, in public, by that CHP 'peace officer') usually unarmed is RAMPANT. Been going on all the time, just now we're able to watch the lynchings, with the dead laying in the streets for hours to send a message to 'those people'.
People can deny and distract all they want with screams of needing proof of racism and murder. I know the murder of young black people(male threats) usually by white state sanctioned executioners is on going. I am really glad to see the proof I need to stand by that statement is readily available, and with that availability I can see the body count is growing everyday. Proof is everywhere. Here, there, everywhere around our society. That is fact. I'm finished with this discussion. You have a good one watching the sunset.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)arguing with Oath Keepers.
Just sayin'...
heaven05
(18,124 posts)on the subject(s).
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Fits the format, I think. 
delta17
(283 posts)Not everyone who disagrees with you is an Oath Keeper, so lose the childish insults and act like an adult.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)it's much easier than wasting keystrokes on people who are not going to listen to you anyway. Plus it's anonymous. I guarantee you'll get the results you deserve.
delta17
(283 posts)I don't alert as a general rule, and I didn't alert on your post.
The poster you insulted was talking about the facts of the case. Instead of countering them with evidence, you chose to attack them. Not only that, you did it as a third party throwing insults from the sidelines.
Like it or not, the officer in this case is innocent until proven guilty. It isn't clear exactly how this went down, but that doesn't seem to matter to you. Enjoy your narrow world view.
On edit, I didn't realize you weren't the same poster. My mistake. The principle stands, though.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I never rendered an opinion as to the officer's guilt or innocence. You believe that LEOs can do no wrong, but I am the one with the narrow world view?
Now look who is doing the insulting. Come back and talk to me after you've spent some time reflecting in a mirror.
delta17
(283 posts)I should have paid more attention.
I don't think cops are infallible, so don't put words in my mouth. Please point out where I said they were. Believing that every police shooting is an "execution", which some on here are advocating, is indeed a narrow world view. Hell, a guy in Queens just attacked a police officer with a hatchet, apparently putting him in critical condition. I will wait until we get a bigger picture to make up my mind on this one.
I have a real problem with people attacking posters who are simply trying to look at the evidence in this case.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Now I'll admit mine. I assumed you were part of the tag team that was attempting to shut down conversation in regards to what I feel are valid questions or statements in regards to excessive use of force by LEOs. I read your lecture as another snarky attempt by members of that group to shut down the conversation once again. So for that, I apologize. However, I did not feel that the person you were admonishing for not behaving adult like engaged in any personal attack- because when I read their post, I could not pinpoint who they were referring to.
I happen to have a real problem with people who come here and shame other people into silence and that's what I felt you were doing and that's why I suggested you use the alert function.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Talk down to someone who will cur to your barking.
Oath Keepers and other police-apologists have no place here.
OK?
delta17
(283 posts)Taking a balanced view of this shooting doesn't make someone a police apologist. Like it or not, there is some evidence that Myers had a gun and shot at the cop. Why don't we wait before we jump to conclusions?
Oh, and you aren't the arbitrator of who is welcome here.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)is a waste of my time.
So, go away.
delta17
(283 posts)Enjoy your weekend.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)It's not some intricately weaved multi layered response drawn up by the finest legal minds in the world...
It's just asking for some proof...
proof that these murder(s) were not committed is all I really want to see. People on here want to disparage witnesses, if the are not the same race as the alleged murderers and deny even documented, by phone camera ect proof of wrong doing and malfeasance. And with all the spin, lies, biases and enabling going on, I doubt proof or truth about these murders will ever be revealed to the satisfaction of the families of these murdered men. I know Trayvon Martin didn't get justice, just a bullet(s) in the chest that a racist jury said was justified. It's getting old and tired, this rampant police brutality against minorities and the poor.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Prove that you aren't a murdered? Really?
Everything about you just screams that you won't listen to any facts you find inconvenient and will wildly speculate on the rest.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)not civilized people gunning down, choking and beating people in full view of the public. I did not say the murder victim has to prove they weren't murdered, I want proof positive that they weren't murdered by these psychopaths in blue. I care not a wit what you say about what I'm looking for or "wildly" speculating about. I'm clear on what I want and that is unbiased and non racist justice for these two executed individuals and that is all I am concerned with. Stop muddying the water, there is enough of that already. If you don't care to contribute anything but thinly veiled insults wellll........
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)you do win, though, please forget what I said about a 'sucker bet' and consider making me part of your family 
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)but I know for a fact that I have better luck getting struck by a meteor than I do of ever winning the jackpot so I limit myself to a single ticket per drawing and the way I look at it atleast it helps pay (or allegedly does) for the schools.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)advertising its state lottery on television and doing so in a way that glosses over the very poor odds and huge vig the state takes. I've thought about complaining about it to my state rep and state Senators, but figure that my concerns would be dismissed as Quixotic. So I confine my dark mutterings to my poor wife's ears.
That said, please allow me to wish you "Good luck!"
Travelman
(708 posts)The state police took over the investigation, at least as far as the crime lab portion of it. It wasn't the city who determined the GSR, but the state.
Now, I suppose the entire state could be in on the vast conspiracy to plant a gun, GSR, and bullets fired from the weapon that Myers was photographed with more than a year before this shooting happened, but, well ... 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)but a typical ploy to make a person appear crazy or stupid. And oh yeah, I'm sure Mr Myers has marijuana in his system also. People are capable of lying and police more and more are being seen for the lying, robbing, murdering thugs sanctioned by the state. The proof is all around a person who is awake and aware of what's happening. I'm done with all you who feel you're right in defending state sanctioned murderers. You're entitled and your vehement defense is not surprising to me. The status quo must be maintained at all cost. I do understand that need in certain groups of citizens. I do. Really.
Travelman
(708 posts)Believing that everyone is in on some gigantic conspiracy to frame some Black guy for doing something he himself has shown a propensity for doing is quite silly indeed.
Precisely what evidence would you believe that would convince you the Myers did indeed shoot at the cop that night?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)as is the case of Michael Brown going for the murderers gun and Trayvon Martin attacking the zimpig. To name a couple in addition to Myers. Then I would believe it. You can relate, evidently, to the people shooting down these men. I can't.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)called the principle of 'falsifiability'. IOW, for any hypothesis to be logically valid, there must exist some set of facts that could nullify that hypothesis.
So, in this case, you are asking Heavon05 what set of facts would or could nullify his hypothesis of a conspiracy to plant evidence.
I cannot answer for Heaven05 but I can say that I have lost confidence entirely in the judicial system of St. Louis County and St. Louis City, including its forensic divisions and its judiciary. I would say that, were the U.S. Dept of Justice (the FBI) to mount its own inquiry and announce that, yes, Myers had gunshot residue on his hands not placed there by some other person or persons, I would accept that I am wrong and that Myers did indeed discharge a firearm that night. But for the St. Louis City PD to say it? Come on, give me a break. They're not exactly an honest broker here, now are they?
Travelman
(708 posts)That's the whole point. It was the STATE crime lab, through the MO Highway Patrol, who made that determination, NOT the local PD.
So, either the Missouri Highway Patrol, combined with the state crime lab, are all in cahoots with the St. Louis City PD and the local town's police force, or maybe, just maybe, the hundreds and hundreds of people involved in this investigation are somehow NOT involved in some gigantic conspiracy.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)found GSR on Myers' hands. (Or if I did know, somehow I lost that in all the heat and light surrounding the Brown and Myers' deaths). (ETA: Do you have a link to the State Crime Lab being the ones who found GSR?)
So my question would be this: assuming the MO state crime lab is not part of some grand conspiracy, is it at least possible that the local cops planted GSR on Myers' dead hands, such that the GSR could be found by the state crime lab? Thus, the state crime lab need not be involved in any conspiracy to obstruct justice but could be an unwitting pawn of those who might have a motive to so conspire.
This is why I mentioned that I wanted the finding of GSR to be done by the FBI and for that finding to also include that the GSR got there by Myers discharging a firearm and not by being planted.
branford
(4,462 posts)Transferring GSR to all these other areas would be extremely difficult, time consuming, and any attempt would likely result in other forensic evidence which could incriminate the officer.
The CBS St. Louis article describes the GSR evidence in some detail and also notes how and why the Missouri State Highway Patrol handled the evidence and testing, rather than the St. Louis Metropolitan Police.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/10/14/lab-results-indicate-gunshot-residue-on-myers-hands-pants-and-t-shirt/
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)"pleading for his life" when the officer -- what was his name and badge number again?? -- administered the final shot that killed him?
It's OK if you don't. If it were true . . . well, I don't know what it would do your belief system. The cognitive dissonance effects would be mind-shattering, to say the least.
I'll be blunt. I do not trust the MO state crime lab to uncover evidence of evidence tampering my St. Louis police. I do trust the FBI to uncover said evidence. If the FBI says the evidence does not exist, I will accept that my suspicisons were wrong and that Myers did indeed discharge a firearm. This does NOT mean that I suspect the MO state crime lab of being a witting party to a conspiracy to obstruct justice, merely to note that I no longer trust. I have LOST TRUST. That stooge Sam Dotson can preen all he wants about 'rational people' this and 'rational people' that but once he's lost the trust of people, how will he get it back?
Clearly, Dotson and his forces still retain your trust.
branford
(4,462 posts)If you don't trust anything but the FBI crime lab, I don't know what to say other than the GSR tests should be easily reproducible by any independent skilled laboratory. It's not a complex or difficult test. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI lab retested the GSR items at the request of the family, although the family's attorneys might choose not to make such a request in fear that it would give even greater credibility and attention to the damning GSR evidence.
I also keep hearing about these alleged witnesses to the "execution," but the only references I've seen are some vague remarks by the obviously partisan family attorney (who still maintains Myers was only armed with a sandwich and has avoided all mention of Myers pending trial for illegal weapons possession and resisting arrest and supposed house arrest).
If you could provide any links or citations that actually identify these witnesses, their actual statements, and the basis for their beliefs, I would be more than happy to offer comments.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)this article. So I cannot offer you any suppo ting documentation or supplemental information about them. But I will keep my eyes peeled and ears open and if I do will let you and everyone here know.
Travelman
(708 posts)As for "planting" GSR, that's not really possible, honestly.
GSR involves more than just some sprinking of dust. In actuality, GSR usually actually slightly burns into skin, and typically leaves microscopic burn marks in clothing. So I can't just take some bit of cordite and sprinkle it onto your hands and that is somehow "proof" that you have fired a gun. There are "snap" chemical tests to determine if you have fired a gun with a quick swab (what you usually see on TV), but a real GSR test requires a microscope and more.
And regardless, this passed ridiculous about four exits back. First the gun was planted, then the bullets were planted, then the bullets that were fired from that gun were planted, then the GSR was planted, then the pictures taken a year before were somehow planted ....
This is asinine. The evidence is there, clear, and well-beyond anything that could possibly be some grand conspiracy to anyone but the most deranged, tinfoil-hatted individuals on the planet. Vonderrick Myers had a gun, one he had had for a long time, and he shot at a cop who was chasing him. He lost a gunfight. Simple as that.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)discourse as 'asinine,' you are signalling that discourse is dead.
What you call 'evidence' has yet to be established as anything remotely such, save in the minds of those who faithfully lean authoritarian. Instead, we have the media reporting what the St. Louis PD 'says' that the MO state crime lab found. If that is 'evidence,' then we are wll into the twilight zone with little chance of safe return.
Please see my response to Branford for the full text of my thoughts and feelings on this:
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)What, you one of those 2+2=4 guys?!?! lol
heaven05
(18,124 posts)your time. The kid, according to them, was probably a thug because of his skin color. You won't get anywhere.
PorridgeGun
(80 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)and I will be pleased to discuss what they have to offer, particularly if they can offer reliable information that contradicts the known forensic evidence. I searched for these alleged witnesses, but the only references I could find were very recent and quite vague allegations by the family's attorney of an unidentified witness who somehow supports the execution theory.
I would also note that Myers' family and attorney are most definitely not witnesses to the incident or forensic experts.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)As I stated before, if and when these witnesses are identified, I will be happy to discuss what they have to offer.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)OMG......really?
Believe it or not I have a lot of experience with our 'justice' system.
I just had a meeting with someone who spent 15 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. He was finally exonerated after our community shitcanned the previous DA and police chief and replaced them with people who are not closeted kkk members.
Cops lie.
We need more shitcannings across this great nation. It starts with the people.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)But apparently defense attorneys and witnesses never do? lol
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Other people are here on the ground. Doing real work while your side loses ground.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)"my side"? I haven't picked "a side" until all the relevant facts are know, you should try it some time.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Travelman
(708 posts)
I'm sorry, but that's funny. I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)could be mistaken for a gun.
I will never, ever believe in the police or justice system that protects rioters and looters who are white, and that always denigrates the character and claims "resisting arrest" so shooting justified in the murder of running away, unarmed black males. I don't care about that gun scenario, 'thowdowns' are common for these murderers of unarmed individuals. Hell wilson didn't even need to have a 'throwdown' he just went into hiding, with the QUICK help of the ferguson administrators. I hope one of these days some of these cop murderers end up in general population in a for profit prison.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to buy a bridge for sale in Brooklyn? You can have it on the cheap.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to the bridge in Brooklyn.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)google the store's tape and see for yourself.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)pathetic.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Was that planted too?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)that's okay...i already know.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)No matter what evidence surfaces. If it does not support your narrative, then it was planted. If it does support your narrative, then it is legit. Why even discuss it?
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)you aren't.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)is like so many in this country. They are slowly sinking into the quicksand of lies and spin from the purveyors of murder and mayhem in our justice system and they'll be claiming the ship of state is unsinkable and that they are not going down with it while in reality, they are.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)At this point in time, I think it looks like the officer executed the individual after the threat was subdued.
branford
(4,462 posts)Neither the GSR or autopsy indicate any execution.
The entire theory appears to be based on an unidentified witness claimed by the family. Apart from normal familial partisanship, given that the family also claims Myers didn't possess a gun, I would be very cautious about accepting such claims at face value, at least until the witness is identified and their credibility assessed or the family provides reliable corroborating evidence.
The alleged witness may turn out to be entirely credible, but at this point, it is an entirely unsubstantiated claim.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)It shows Myers suffered a head wound, nothing more. In fact, the doctor explicitly stated he couldn't even ascertain the order of the shots.
The execution theory appears to be based entirely on the unidentified witness claimed by the family, not the forensic evidence thus far released by either the police or family.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I am not someone who jumps to form a conclusion on day to support the side I "support". I am saying there are things that point to that possibility.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)your aren't. why are YOU discussing it? i am discussing it because i have four nephews who look just like this young man...and michael brown...and trayvon martin...and ronnie settles. what's YOUR DOG in this fight?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Honestly, how long after you first heard of this was your mind cemented on what happened?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)you to see 'thug' instead of human being?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Was the individual troubled? Clearly, if his prior run ins with the law was true. That said, I have already stated it looks like the officer executed the individual after the threat was subdued.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Cops would never plant gunpowder on anyone.... much as they would never plant drugs on anyone either
branford
(4,462 posts)The issue has already been discussed extensively in the thread.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)We often see nothing when we desire to see nothing (granted, I didn't type it in all caps-- easier to avoid the melodramatic petulance, that way). Humans are pretty cool that way.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)so fucking what? How does that prove that he didn't have a gun and used that gun to shoot at the cop?
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)people of color have the same opportunities as whites to live full and productive lives without having to fear police death squads. I think this revolution can and will happen, but maybe not in my lifetime.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)something has got to give and their are serious strains on the exalted 'fabric' of american culture and life......because of situations like this that are becoming much more common. There are those who will whine and moan about all these recent spate of minority murders being justified from Trayvon up until now. I am going to stop giving them even the time of day. The group Chicago asked in a song, "does anybody know what time it is, does anybody really care"? Yeah I care and the time is getting late and running out. These local justice system people think they, because of their 'privileged' position in this society, can continue to spin, lie and manufacture evidence to continue to justify murder without consequence. I'm glad I'm the age I am at this time in this sick and racist culture. I am just sick of ameriKKKan justice
brush
(53,758 posts)Its seems that more of these killing of unarmed black men are happening lately but I don't think so.
They've been happening all along, it's just that video cameras are everywhere now — in convenience stores and in every ones' pocket (cel phones), so they're being recorded now and we can see them posted on the internet.
And one more thing, rogue cops targeting black men have become the modern day lynch mobs.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)so true. It probably is true about the personal media being so much more prevalent in recording these 'lynchings'. Damn sure has been happening all the time, every since Reconstruction. Thank god for the cameras that are present in our society. The more people see the truth, the more that will be able to say, "NO MORE" to the state sanctioned murderers.
branford
(4,462 posts)The officer has apparently alleged there was a gunfight. If he was lying, it would be a foolish story, and any officer would know. There would be more than ample and independent sources of forensic evidence to ascertain what occurred.
For instance, Myers purportedly had GSR not only on his hands, but the inside of his pockets and waistband. That pretty much eliminates the "throwdown" gun theory. The fact that Myers was also on bail for an illegal weapons charges, wearing an anklet, and supposed to be under house arrest when the incident occurred, also cannot be ignored.
I will await the release of the full investigation, but it appears that the Myers shoot might very well be justified. There may be serious racial disparities in the criminal justice system, but that does not mean all altercations between a white cop and a black suspect are infused with racism, or that the cop acted inappropriately.
As a criminal justice matter, what happened between Brown and Wilson has no bearing on this incident. The only thing that matters is what occurred between Myers and the officer.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)don't you think people have a right to be skeptical? google ronnie settles, my friend from high school. IT ALWAYS has bearing. the cops have been getting away with murdering black people since the first africans arrived on these shores. YOU may have to privilege to ignore that, but i don't.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)of both sides of the story. Frankly, I'm very skeptical of the idea that someone already out on bail for a weapons charge, whom a police officer said fired three shots at him, was only armed with a sandwich and was executed in cold blood. Not all police officers are good, and not all all police shootings are justified; but contrary to what many people would like us to believe, the police generally don't run around yelling "yeehaw!" and randomly shooting people.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)that's all they are doing.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)There are more than 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers now serving in the United States....if that's "all they were doing" we would have a million dead a month by police shootings.
http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/
heaven05
(18,124 posts)just one shooting like ferguson is too many. I see your 'fact' link, doesn't impress. There are many, many cases of police brutality out there, these days, especially with the racist RW insanity gripping Foxnews and bundyland folks, the racists in blue feel emboldened. So your contribution holds no water as far as I'm concerned. YEAH REALLY!!!!!!
branford
(4,462 posts)I haven't convicted or exonerated the officer, unlike you and some others.
I acknowledge that the evidence thus far released (i.e., the recovery of the gun and shell casings and GSR) appear to strongly support the officer's account. If new evidence becomes available, I will gladly reevaluate my positions. Of course, the officer is also presumed innocent.
However, I will not convict the officer based on "institutional racism" or similar concerns. He needs to actually be guilty of the crime of which he is accused. I will also not consider totally irrelevant matters when ascertaining culpability such as the fact that the officer was off-duty and working at a legal and permissible security job.
You are most certainly free to remain as skeptical as you wish. However, don't be surprised if your arguments are not taken seriously if you choose to ignore evidence that does not fit your narrative.
Travelman
(708 posts)don't seem to matter much any more.
Apparently, no matter what, despite how many independent entities manage to corroborate the evidence, the only thing that matters is the emotionalism. So what if the young Black man fired at the cop three times? Every young Black man should get to shoot at cops at least six times, because ... justice! Or something.
And for all the people who are now wearing out their mouses (mice?) banging the "alert" button as hard as they can on this post: yes, there most definitely ARE bad cops who do bad things. Nation-wide, there are a lot of bad cops who do bad things. But in aggregate, they are a very slim sliver of a fraction of all cops out there.
Here's another newsflash: there are young Black men who do bad things. That's simply undeniable if for no other reason that there have been lots of cases, proved beyond any shadow of any doubt, of young Black males murdering other people, usually other young Black males. But here's something else about that: they are a tiny sliver of a fraction of all young Black males out there. Just like bad cops.
Hmph. Imagine that. Some bad people do some bad things, but it manages to not be representative of people as a whole.
If you (the Royal You) are going around demonizing "the fascist pigs" or whatever you want to call them these days, then you are no different than anyone who goes around demonizing "Black youths" or whatever other euphemism that racists want to use these days to substitute for "nigger." You're engaging in exactly the same mentality as racists who hate Black people solely because they're Black or culturally different or whatever.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and stand by it. I'm done with you. You get no more of my time even with your 'proof', it was still murder.
branford
(4,462 posts)However, you just need actual evidence to convince others of the correctness of your belief, no less secure a criminal conviction.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)citizens especially the black community. While we would love to give the police the benefit of the doubt pending other further evidence, we have seen that it is common for the police to abuse their position of power and execute people. This autopsy indicated that the final shot was thru the back of the head, most likely while the victim was laying on the ground. Eye witnesses support that. There is absolutely no justification for that.
branford
(4,462 posts)What a load of garbage! I support the truth, regardless if that means the police officer is guilty of murder or Myers death was the result of his own criminal foolishness.
If you or anyone else believe that the officer is criminally culpable, you need to present actual evidence to prove the allegations (and for a conviction, proof beyond a reasonable doubt) . Everyone, whether white police officers or poor, inner-city minority youth, is innocent until proven guilty.
In a criminal matter, it's immaterial if some, or even most, police officers allegedly abuse their positions. That is most certainly not proof that this particular officer did anything wrong in this particular instance.
Lastly, the autopsy showed a number of injuries, including the head wound. It offered no indication or evidence of an "execution shot." In fact, the expert carefully noted he couldn't even tell the order of the various wounds (which could have all occurred within a couple of seconds). The only purported evidence of the execution scenario is as of yet unidentified and totally unknown witness that the family claims exists. Until such time as that alleged witness is identified, no less have their credibility tested, or some forensic evidence supports the theory, it is little more than unsubstantiated opinion. For all we know, this is the same witness that stated Myers only possessed a sandwich, despite what appears to be overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
You claim that it was "most likely" that Myers was executed while laying on the ground? Why, other than your general distrust of all police? If you're accusing the officer of cold-blooded murder, you bear the burden to prove such allegations (and disprove evidence to the contrary).
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Eye witnesses said he was shot in the head while laying on the ground. That makes more sense than whatever strange scenario you are pushing.
Travelman
(708 posts)That ludicrous claim was obliterated by the actual facts and evidence. Those "witnesses" were lying.
branford
(4,462 posts)First, the officer is presumed innocent. If you believe he is guilty of criminal wrongdoing, you bear the burden of proving such allegations. There is no police officer exception to constitutional due process and presumption of innocence.
The only actual evidence thus far released and known is the GSR tests and the autopsy. The GSR clearly refutes the "only armed with a sandwich" claim, and supports the officer's account that he was fired upon by Myers. Other than demonstrating that Myers was shot and killed, a point not in contention, I'm not really sure what it proves that is inconsistent with the officer's account. The expert even appeared to deliberately avoid the issue of an execution killing by noting he could not ascertain the order or timing of the wounds. We also know that Myers was on bail for illegal weapons and resisting arrest charges, with a trial date in November, and he was supposed to be under house arrest and monitored by and anklet.
(I speculate that the family released the autopsy to show that Myers was fleeing the scene. However, if he had fired at the officer, the officer was entitled to fire back to stop the now demonstrable and dangerous threat, even though he might have been in retreat.)
The only alleged witness to the execution is, as of now, unknown and totally unidentified by the family. We have no idea if the witness actually exists, no less are we in any position to meaningfully determine their credibility.
I'm not trying to exonerate or incriminate the officer. I have no personal investment in his guilt or innocence. I will gladly change my opinion as new evidence is uncovered or released. However, the actual evidence currently available appears to strongly support the officer's account of that evening, regardless of whether it conforms to your narrative.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)You say, "There is no police officer exception to constitutional due process and presumption of innocence." and I completely disagree. Across America police are getting away with killing people. Mostly people in the black community. It's an epidemic. You want to say that the officer is innocent until proven guilty and I agree, but I also say that the victim should also be afforded the same consideration. Yet you point out, "We also know that Myers was on bail for illegal weapons and resisting arrest charges, with a trial date in November, and he was supposed to be under house arrest and monitored by and anklet." That's not justification to pump bullets into his body from the back.
I don't know what happened in this case but I am extra suspicious when so many bullets were shot into the victims body from the back. And I don't trust the police dept. not to cover for the officer. We don't have justice in America today.
branford
(4,462 posts)any evidence that supports the officer's account of that evening based on generalizations about police and your own distrust.
You are certainly free to have doubts, and wanting to see an end to disparities in the criminal justice system is certainly a worthwhile goal. However, that does not mean every poor outcome between a white police office and a minority youth is the result of racism or that the officer was at fault, or that uncomfortable evidence can be ignored.
As I've stated repeatedly, the Myers investigation is still ongoing. I've simply noted that everyone is presumed innocent, and the actual physical and forensic evidence thus far available strongly disputes the family's claim that Myers was unarmed and corroborates the officer's account of what happened. A recovered gun, shell casings, bullets, and GSR on Myers hands, shirt, front and back pockets and waistband, cannot be wished away or dismissed.
If the family claims that Myers was executed, a blunt allegation of cold blooded murder, they cannot rely upon vague accusations. If there is a reliable witness that supports such a claim, they should be identified. As a practical matter, I would also be curious as to a motive why the officer would execute Myers, such as any prior contact between the officer and Myers or previous substantiated claims against the officer of racial animus or unnecessary force.
I intentionally noted Myers weapons and resisting arrest charges and bail conditions separately from the direct evidence, and never stated or implied that it would justify an execution. However, it undoubtedly provides relevant context. Myers was supposed to be under house arrest, and not out that evening "buying a sandwich" with his friends. The criminal charges also help explain, although not necessarily prove, Myers possessed illegal weapons and reacts poorly to legitimate detention and questioning. His fleeing and other allegedly poor choices can also be explained by his fear of the legal consequences of another arrest or investigation by the officer.
The fact that Myers was shot in the back appear immaterial in these particular circumstances. This fact is entirely consistent with the officers account of that evening. If Myers fired on the officer, the officer was entitled to stop such a dangerous threat, even if the assailant was fleeing. Absent obvious threats to innocent bystanders, that appears to be basic police procedure, and certainly not evidence of criminality.
Criticizing the number of bullets fired by the officer also appears to be a red herring. Many police firearms like the Glock 17 and S&W MP9 hold 15+ rounds in the magazine, and it is not only uncommon, but often expected, that in the heat of a life or death exchange of gunfire, for an officer (or anyone else) to completely empty their magazine in order to neutralize the threat. This can literally be accomplished withing a couple of seconds, and the shooter generally does not realize that they've done so. I've heard no countervailing allegations such as the officer reloading his weapon, no less after Myers was neutralized, and such information can be easily ascertained with forensic evidence.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)shootings. Police across the country are getting away with murder day in and day out. Police enter the wrong house and shoot an unarmed, inebriated person and claim that they made a false move. It's murder and yet the police involved get the high-fives at the police bar. I don't know what happened in this case but I don't trust the police's investigation of their own.
As far as a police officer emptying their gun into their victim, it means one of two things to me. Either the officer was out of control (the shooter generally does not realize that they've done so.) or the officer is a psychopath.
branford
(4,462 posts)is not evidence of lack of control, no less that anyone is a psychopath, regardless of whether they are a police officer or civilian.
You are emotionally reacting to the number of bullets in a situation where you already believe the officer was acting criminally. Respectfully, your opinion does not reflect actual knowledge of firearms, tactical encounters or accepted police procedure.
Gunfights are very quick and horrible situations, with virtually no time for any reflection, and while under the effects of severe stress and adrenaline. Training only goes so far. It is not an clinical situation or like the movies. You do not (and really cannot) shoot to wound, rarely have an opportunity to count you shots, and are supposed to fire until there is no doubt that the threat is neutralized. More importantly, in the heat of such combat, accuracy is greatly diminished, particularly at night.
In this instance, I believe the officer fired over 15 shots, yet about half actually hit, and only the one to the head by itself appears to have had the potential to be immediately fatal. Those are above average statistics. Note that Myers also apparently fired three shots, and stopped only because his gun jammed. There are no allegations that the officer reloaded after the threat of Myers had clearly been eliminated. If Myers gun had not jammed, it's entirely possible that the officer would be dead or wounded.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)scary. You say that the officer shot over 15 shots but only half hit the intended target. I say that indicates that he might have been firing to quickly. Just because a firearm can empty it's clip in under 2 seconds (standard for a Glock) doesn't mean one has to fire that fast. It likely indicates that the officer was firing in a panic or out of control. It's luck that he didn't hit bystanders. And don't tell me you haven't see videos of officers shooting into a body prone on the ground.
branford
(4,462 posts)I'm not "rationalizing" anything. I'm describing the sad reality of gunfights, including basic human psychology and biology, logistics of firearms and basic physics, and inherent limitations of training.
It's too easy to be sitting comfortably at your desk or on the couch and judge how someone should have handled a life or death gunfight, alone, with an unknown assailant, at night. It's not video game, there's no pause button or do-over, and even a minor mistake or slighest hesitation could cost your life. As soon as a firearm is drawn, the expectation is that the situation could become chaotic, ugly and most decidedly lethal.
All I can suggest is that you perform your own research into the issue, including descriptions of incidents where police officers lawfully discharged their weapons. You will be shocked.
Response to branford (Reply #149)
rhett o rick This message was self-deleted by its author.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)Generally when some is trying to kill you and is actively firing a gun at you, that is the expected response from normal humans.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)citizens by the police. How about the poor guy that had three police officers empty their guns into him when he reached for his wallet. Oops, they thought their life was in danger therefore completely justified. The poor Native American in Seattle was a carver and had his knife in his hand when a passing officer saw him and shot him dead. Officers broke into the wrong house and confronted a drunken man in his bed. When he made a wrong move, they killed him dead. He was unarmed. Near Seattle a mental patient was in a tree and wouldn't come down so the police shot him. He was lucky and survived. A homeless man was confronted by about 6 officers for illegally camping in a park. They ended up shooting him dead. It's an epidemic and few care.
EX500rider
(10,829 posts)I merely pointed out that expecting people not to panic when someone is actively trying to kill them with a gun might be asking a little to much.
Going to the gun range and shooting holes in paper targets in no way prepares one for for the adrenaline rush and possible hyperventilation state you will automatically go into during ongoing near death experiences. Even trained soldiers take many times in combat before they come even close to being calm under fire and then after x many times they descend into PTSD.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I question the training that might teach officers to point at the target and empty their gun as fast as they can.
We have an epidemic in this country of police shooting people with little justification and accountability. I don't know what happened in this case, but I have little faith in our justice system when it comes to police killing people.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You know, evidence, things that would prove innocence or guilt, and, lest you forget, that pesky thing in our justice system, innocent until proven guilty by a preponderance of the evidence.
So far, all we have that the cop executed Myers is an unsubstantiated "witness", a witness that the Myers family won't name or bring forward.
Have they presented this "witness" to the police yet to take the statement?
Have the police substantiated or disproved this "witness" claims yet?
Is it witnesses or witness?
branford
(4,462 posts)The "preponderance of the evidence" standard generally applies to civil liability, and is a far lower threshold than beyond a reasonable doubt.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I've been reading your posts and am impressed with your grasp of the justice system.
I know you've been catching alot of flack from the resident haters of cops, but you've held your own and kept your cool.
Please, keep up the good work in educating us on the finer points of the law.
branford
(4,462 posts)FYI, I'm a trial attorney, although my practice is primarily commercial litigation in NYC. Many moons ago, before law school, I also worked at the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice, researching a myriad of criminal justice issues. Both my legal career and prior criminal justice research intimately exposed me to both local and federal law enforcement and defendants and suspects. My most valuable lesson was that generalizing about either group was ignorant and foolish, and every matter must be judged on its own merits.
I happen to find the legal issues and posts most interesting. My views are also more classically liberal and similar to most ACLU jurisprudence, and I believe that even those I may detest are entitled to the full panoply of Constitutional rights.
I do not love or hate the police. As with any other sector of society, there are good cops and bad cops, noble cops and sometimes criminal cops. When incidents like the Brown or Myers shootings occur, it's always best to take a step back, acknowledge that the issues and circumstances may be complex, and rely on actual evidence, not preconceived notions, in the search for the truth.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)We could all learn from people like you.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 24, 2014, 11:10 AM - Edit history (2)
"everyone, whether white police officer or poor, inner-city minority youth, is innocent until proven guilty". The former is true, the latter IS NOT. Time after time this has been proven true. From the trumped up charges to the guilty sentence to send that brown skinned person to for profit prisons, that person had no chance to prove their innocence. Just ask Michael Brown if he was proven innocent until proven guilty. Oh wait, Michael can't answer that and neither can the thousands who show up in our 'justice system and are brown skinned who are guilty until proven innocent. Just ask the administrators of Ferguson's justice system how they make the many, many dollars for their city coffers.
The ability of people to make a statement such as that "innocent until proven guilty" one amazes me in it's callous disregard of the reality(s) of the american justice system when it comes to the poor and minorities. Just amazes me.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)That being said, I think retribution -- while a fairly common initial impulse -- would only perpetuate the hate-mongering, the fear-mongering and the inhumanity of these cowardly murderers.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)as IF this incident exists in a vacuum. these are not "isolated incidents"...they are business as usual.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)And, I cannot believe how hard some are working to vilify these now deceased young men, while exonerating their killers! It's disgusting!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)when they are CLEARLY arguing that the shooting was justified. it is always justified to some, and I KNOW you KNOW what i mean. it is beyond disgusting.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)And, this statement often precedes a soliloquy about the questionable behaviors, characteristics, or acquaintances of the person(s) who got murdered. Those people go straight to my IL, because I've learned the hard way that they are entrenched in their racism and cannot be moved.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)mention is not going to stop anyway. AmeriKKKa is a sick and depraved country peopled by fearful cowardly racists who see's a n..... under every bed. It will not go away until they are all dead and that's not possible since they train more in their families every day for more generations of racist hate based on some outmoded, antiquated, obsolete notion of white people being superior to all others. It's getting tribal. Truly sickening.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)He has learned not to spew his vitriol in front of me. One of his worst racist rants involved justifying his assertion that "black people are NOT people." He's retiring effective this coming Friday, and I am glad I don't have to engage in anti-racist discussions with him any more. (His children are not like him, thankfully...)
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)Don't go overboard with the crazy talk.
Democratic Underground is not intended to be a platform for kooks and crackpots peddling paranoid fantasies with little or no basis in fact. To accommodate our more imaginative members we tolerate some limited discussion of so-called "conspiracy theories" under the following circumstances: First, those discussions are not permitted in our heavily-trafficked Main forums; and second, those discussions cannot stray too far into Crazyland (eg: chemtrails, black helicopters, 9/11 death rays or holograms, the "New World Order," the Bilderbergers, the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, alien abduction, Bigfoot, and the like). In addition, please be aware that many conspiracy theories have roots in racism and anti-semitism, and Democratic Underground has zero tolerance for bigoted hate speech. In short, you take your chances.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)but that would shut down a large part of the traffic if it were strictly enforced. It does keep me from posting my wife's alien abduction theories, which she's spent way too much time thinking about.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)IS NOT funny or a conspiracy theory. Watch wilson and this 'moonlighting' cop walk free. That's conspiracy. Trying to turn the victims into the perpetrators/instigators of their own murder is amazing. Just amazing.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)no amount of conversation is going to change either of our minds on this subject.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)time stopped in 44 A.D. and everything since has been but a hologram.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)is a conspiracy theory? Is that what you're referring to?
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)Most importantly, it does not indicate if Myers fired on the officer, no less disprove the previously released GSR evidence that indicated Myers possessed and fired a gun. If Myers fired at the officer, the officer's returning fire would be permissible and Myers wounds entirely consistent with the autopsy. The fact that Myers died of gunshot wound is not in dispute.
Although the autopsy notes a head wound, it also doesn't indicate any "execution shot" by the officer after Myers was purportedly no longer a threat. That theory appears to be based solely on an unnamed and unknown witness claimed by the family.
The autopsy is certainly relevant evidence and not part of a conspiracy theory. However, absent actual evidence, any claims that the police planted the gun or other evidence or engaged in any other malfeasance, most certainly exits only in the realm of unsubstantiated conspiracies.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)not be, according to you, possible for the 'evidence' to be a lie? Witnesses have to be 'vetted' right? Tell that to the grand jury. If those 'witnesses turn out to be black then I know their testimony has to be substantiated by someone deemed more responsible. I am very sure of that and that is not a theory. I know those who back up whatever the 'proof' dictates from the police, MSM, 'forensic experts paid by the police have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, I understand that.
Yet these shootings are not going to be swept under the rug by people with hidden and not so hidden agendas. Just ain't going to keep happening. People are waking up or more to the point being forced to wake up to the realities of living in a racist culture that deems black life much more unworthy of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness than white life.
branford
(4,462 posts)It can be disputed, or placed in different contexts. However, the evidence doesn't "lie." The people who collect and interpret it are another matter entirely.
Similarly, witnesses are evaluated all the time. Some are more reliable than others for a variety of reasons. For instance, testimony from a mother that her son is innocent rarely carries much weight when presented with countervailing facts.
I'm a trial attorney, I deal with these nuances and issues all the time in motions and in court.
As to your particular concerns:
First, the race of any witness is entirely irrelevant, for good or ill.
Second, in a criminal context, witnesses are very unreliable, regardless of whether they are honest and acting in good faith. That is why forensic evidence is so important. It not only independently provides relevant, often dispositive information, it assists in evaluating the credibility of witnesses.
Third, most forensic evidence is capable of being independently tested. For instance, that is why the two released autopsies by both the family and state in the Brown case were remarkably similar despite the antagonism between the parties.
Fourth, guilt or innocence in a particular criminal matter is entirely dependent of the facts of the relevant incident, not on wider societal issues like racism or social justice. The defendant, whether a police officer or minority youth, is guilty or not based on their own actions, not imputed due to association or race.
Fifth, everyone, including the police, are innocent until proven guilty. It you allege police malfeasance, no less actual guilt, it is incumbent on you (or the State) to provide actual evidence in support of the allegations to render it more than an opinion.
Sixth, no one should form firm opinions until all evidence is released. It is natural to have strong opinions, even biases, but they must yield when the evidence no longer supports a viewpoint or narrative.
I await the release of all the pertinent information and witnesses in the Myers matter. What has been released appears to corroborate the officer's account, particularly the presence of the gun rather than a "sandwich." As new and reliable information becomes available, perceptions, including my own, of the officer's guilt or innocence may certainly change.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it is not. Therefore..........I am done with all who's only agenda, it seems, in all these cases that have arisen in the last couple of years is to maintain the status quo. I see nothing else. Trayvon Martins murder proved that, Michael Browns murderer WILL walk and the eye witnesses, in that case, if not white, were deemed unreliable in that case time after time.
No, american justice is a joke when it comes to any minority, especially poor citizens of color. As is proven time after time the 'facts' you refer to are what DA and police say they are. Damn what the eyewitnesses have seen. Not all are as unreliable as you attest. The fact that you are a lawyer gives you no more credibility, in my book, as someone coldly objective and without bias.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)advice when I was just starting out: "Don't ever argue legal issues with a non-lawyer. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't get you anywhere and it just irritates the pig." I always found it to be good advice.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)pigs can sing. That is insulting to slyly call me a pig. Yet this site has taught me, among other things, the art of obfuscating, deflection and hypocrite spotting. Thanks.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I got called a name too. You're a pig, I'm a hypocrite. It just makes me feel so happy
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it as a sign of the lack of any substance to contribute. Truth cannot be name called away. A lot try and a lot are a big fail.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Two people do and one of them is dead so we can't possibly determine what happened without asking questions that some may not like to have asked.
There are those that believe that law enforcement can do no wrong. Many of us know from experience different.
I get a little gnarly when someone attempts to shutdown what are in my opinion, legitimate questions discussed in a thread by someone attempting to intimidate others by claiming they are the expert hence the questioner's questions are not valid.
branford
(4,462 posts)Heh.
The irony is that I generally argue about constitutional and evidentiary issues like due process, protections against self-incrimination and presumption of innocence, in support of the very popular position of not unfairly forming opinions when young minorities are accused of crimes or supporting unduly harsh sentences. It's somewhat depressing to realize that many here only maintain these classic liberal values when convenient, and manage to carve out constitutional exceptions for police officers.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I stand corrected, in relation to you. Yet due process, presumption of innocence.... a laughable joke when it comes to minorities. I've sat in court rooms and just listened. Pathetic what is done to people who are not advised of their rights or just don't know or understand. I was one of those at one time. Happened just once. You can accuse but until due process, harsh unfair sentences based strictly on race are not the norm, I maintain that the justice system is skewed toward racial characteristics and having lots of money.
The police and citizens are getting away with murder, beatings, thefts and due process is usually denied to the victims of those types of crime. Police and their conduct is on trial in america and if the system was fair and balanced a lot of the misconduct would be penalized, which in most cases is not, these days. Look I know this system it's all you have and you must have a way to judge wrongdoers and the innocent, it's just not fair. The police deserve due process, true, but they really don't need it because they usually are not charged.
You're a lawyer so you're very well versed in making the obvious confusing to make someone look uninformed and ignorant. The law in this country is for a certain racial/economic group to take advantage of and it has always been applied unfairly in many, many cases.
You can keep the faith maybe you're one to change things. I've lost all faith in our justice system . When it metes out fair and balanced verdicts on any level, then I can join your ranks of blind faith.
branford
(4,462 posts)whether they are the result of race, gender, class, wealth or anything else.
However, in order to help guarantee that everyone has the most basic of constitutional protections, you must also ensure that they are provided to those individuals you may find abhorrent. Moreover, guilt or innocence cannot be imputed to anyone based on their inclusion in a group, regardless of whether that group consists of police officers or minority youth.
Similarly, when citing examples of racial animus or police misconduct, one must be careful to avoid knee-jerk responses and preconceived notions, and be confident that the examples used are actually victims, not criminals.
For example, if the evidence continues to demonstrate that the officer in the Myers matter was defending himself against someone firing at him with a illegal gun, when that individual should have been under house arrest, how does that help show minority youth are unfairly targeted by police. Defending individuals rightfully viewed and proven as criminals by the general public, regardless of race, makes the relevant activists look foolish and sadly acts to justify the racists in our midst.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)and if Myers was in possession of an illegal weapon and firing at the security officer, he got what he was trying to give. Yet, if this officer walked up to an individual already danger neutralized and shot him in the head,no good in my book. No due process. Yet I have to wait and see how this, like ferguson, will pan out. Due process is demanded and afforded to most men and women in blue, others who are unarmed citizens, are murdered and murdered by those who are afforded due process. Skewed. But it's 'the system', I just don't trust it anymore to be fair and balanced with the racist RW insanity sweeping this country from SCOTUS to elected officials all the way down to a zimpig.
I wish you good fortune.
branford
(4,462 posts)he is a murderer and should receive the full force and fury of the the law. As always, the state bears the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict the officer of such a crime.
However, such an claim goes well past excessive force or racist motives. It requires clear evidence, not simple allegations.
If the execution theory is true, there should be relevant forensic evidence. The family autopsy neither proves or disproves the theory. In light of the seriousness of the claim, I expect the family to reveal their purported witness. Did this individual actually witness an "execution," can they identify anything that could be forensically confirmed, do they have any conflicts of interest and are they otherwise credible, etc.?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)SMH. No one here has advocated violating the officer's constitutional rights. Nor has anyone manage to carve out any constitutional exceptions for police officers.
If you really were an attorney, you would know that constitutional exceptions can only be made by those in position of authority acting as agents of the state.
One would have to be mentally deficient not to know that police brutality does indeed occur in this country and the problem seems to be growing by leaps and bounds. Nor is it unreasonable for someone to express their cynicism or speculate in regards to law enforcements behavior in any situation where young men of color ends up dead from being shot from behind as a result of committing a minor infraction.
Additionally, As an advocate on issues such as due process, protections against self-incrimination and presumption of innocence- you would be aware that there does not need to be any sort of conspiracy or cover up for a LEO to plant incriminating evidence on a dead suspect.
What you and a few others posting in this thread are doing is- attempting to shut down the discussion by shaming those who express their opinions of LEOs in a negative manner.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I do appreciate the help. The justice system is skewed in favor of the 'privileged'. Those not in that category face a maze of legal entanglement designed to fill the prisons with black and poor bodies. I shall always believe this fact.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I also know, even if you can afford the justice, that if you are innocent and you don't actively engage in your defense and merely count on your "lawyer" to advocate for you, you will not get justice.
I also know that if you are a person of color and a LEO has their sights set on you for whatever reason, that they will attempt to provoke you into doing something they can pin on you solidly.
I also know that for the courts, it is not about justice or right and wrong. It is about politics and a paycheck. Prosecutors want convictions and they will lie or omit evidence that will exonerate someone to get those convictions. And I know that the Judges don't care.
I know that if you have no money and run afoul of a LEO, whether guilty of something or not, you will be locked up for as long as they can possibly lock you up.
I know that all these actors want to keep their jobs or move up the ladder- and to do this there has to be a steady stream of criminals in order for any of it to happen.
But what most people don't know in regards to the current trend of rising police violence, is that in the future, it will not be limited to the abuse and death of people of color or the poor.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)most have no idea.....what's coming.
branford
(4,462 posts)I've stated so on numerous occasions.
However, many here willfully ignore the actual law concerning police use of firearm, are ignorant of the circumstances involved in a real gunfight, presume the officer guilty simple because of the races involved, dismiss all evidence that doesn't fit their preconceived notions, often as the result of some vast unproven conspiracy, and accept unsubstantiated theory and opinion as fact.
Moreover, in a criminal matter, guilt cannot be imputed to any party due to their membership in a group. I readily admit that there are far too many instances of the use of unnecessary force by police, and minorities are often the victims. However, that is absolutely not evidence that this particular officer used excessive force, no less committed premeditated murder, in this instance.
Imputing criminal guilt to many thousands of police officers for the malfeasance of a relative few is no less unacceptable that assuming criminality and violence from all minority youth due to their disproportionate levels of convictions for violent crimes. Stereotypes and generalizations are anathema to liberal thinking, and more importantly, act as bulwark against eliminating disparities in the criminal justice system.
If requesting citation to evidence or law, or expecting knowledge of the facts of the case, as part of a discussion constitutes "shaming" or shutting down the discussion, I'm at loss on how to respond, except to state that when I discuss serious criminal matters, I leave out the conspiracies and unsubstantiated opinions.
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)speculate or express cynicism in regards to LEOs actions. Only a jury is required to be advised of the law and to form an opinion and verdict based on actual law.
No, the fact that there are far too many instances of the use of unnecessary force by police and minorities being the victim far to often is not evidence of excessive use of force in this instance. However, there is indeed evidence this officer used excessive force. There are witnesses and in a court of law, testimony is regarded as evidence. Whether the jury regards it as valid evidence or not, is another matter, but it is considered evidence.
So you don't like cynics painting LEOs negatively with a broad brush, yet it is okay for you to use that very same brush to paint cynics as something other than liberal. Nice double standard you got there consular.
Again, you and I both know that there need not be any conspiracy for a LEO to plant evidence on a suspect. It happens all the time, and the only people you are going to fool with the "I'm a lawyer, I know the law, you know nothing" attitude, is your average Fox News viewer.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)
branford
(4,462 posts)who are these alleged witnesses that the support the claim of use of excessive force or actual premeditated murder in the Myers matter? I've searched myself, and made numerous requests, yet the identities of these witnesses, no less their testimony and basis for their knowledge, remain oddly elusive. I'll be happy to discuss such purported evidence, would you kindly provide a link? I hope you'll provide more than Myers' mother's (who is not an actual witness) claim that he only had a sandwich.
Additionally, I don't think any individual should be judged in a criminal matter based upon membership in a disfavored group, whether that group constitutes police officers or minority youth. Moreover, with all due respect, you're not a "cynic," you're a hypocrite. You and others demand that police not stereotype or treat all young black men as veritable "thugs," a sentiment which I am in complete agreement, yet you insist that we assume all law enforcement officers as basically criminals, apparently including minority police officers.
If you're claiming evidence was planted in this particular case, how about offering some proof other than "it happens all the time." If you're alleging that the police planted the gun, bullets, spent shell casings, as well as GSR on Myers' hands, shirt, front and back pockets and waistband, and that the state crime lab (not the local St. Louis lab) was complicit or so utterly incompetent that such malfeasance was not easily discovered, absent clear and concrete evidence, such allegations belong in the tinfoil hat zone. Did the police also magically conjure up Myers upcoming trial for illegal weapons possession and resisting arrest, the social media pictures of him with the firearms, or force him to go out to "buy a sandwich" while he was supposed to be under house arrest as a condition of his bail?
Lastly, as to knowledge of the law, no one is asking you to cite the model penal code or draft jury instructions. A basic layman's understanding of the relevant legal framework, however, is necessary for a productive discussion, and when someone (it need not be me) educates you on the black letter law, just ignoring it is simply ignorant. For instance, many repeatedly, and quite incorrectly, claim that the officer's private security job was somehow improper or that the officer lacked authority while "off-duty," you can never shoot a fleeing suspect, or that an officer can only fire a limited number of shots before it's automatically a case of "murder." I've even seen the absurd suggestion that it's legitimate self-defense to shoot an officer if they approach you without probable cause.
The fact that I'm an attorney is of no real import, and I claim no unique knowledge of what transpired that fateful evening. You are free to evaluate my comments in light of my life experience, or not, as you so choose. I most certainly do not claim others "know nothing," and believe there are likely very many who have studied this case far more than myself. Nevertheless, I will continue to point out instances of known factual errors, clear legal misunderstandings, and opinion masquerading as fact or evidence, and would expect no less of others.
You are, of course, free to hold any opinions you choose, regardless of my thoughts on their wisdom or veracity. However, don't be surprised that when you come to a forum to ostensibly engage in a discussion of a particular topic, than some will strongly disagree with your position and expect to be persuaded with more than charm and conclusory statements.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Ask Jerryl Christmas, he's a fellow member of your club, maybe he'll tell you the witnesses names.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/private-autopsy-claims-vonderrit-myers-shot-while-fleeing/article_ab007919-9bf9-50e2-8dd2-8f5b45088440.html
For your FYI old wise one, I haven't stated an opinion in regards to the officer nor made any claims, you have only assumed and now you resort to name calling. How cute.
I really love it when people resort to name calling, it shows me they have nothing left.
branford
(4,462 posts)I've read the article a number of times. I see no identification of the purported execution witness. It's not my job to discover evidence supporting or incriminating either the officer or Myers. If the family's counsel wishes his claims to be taken seriously, it's incumbent on him to present evidence, not just allegations. Mr. Christmas has alleged the officer committed murder. I await the evidence.
I'm still also at a loss concerning the importance of the autopsy. The fact that Myers was shot and killed by the officer is not in dispute. In fact, given the number of shots, I would have expected Myers to have received more wounds. I surmise that the family released the report to show that Myers was likely shot while fleeing. That might evoke some sympathy by those already disposed against the police, but I fail to see the legal import. If Myers shot at the officer as alleged and seemingly confirmed by the released forensics, the officer was well within his rights to fire at Myers, now a known and dangerous assailant, even if he was retreating.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)No, the fact that the officer shot and killed him is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the claim of excessive force.
Just what was this man fleeing from? Do you even know why this individual was being pursued by an off duty cop who was moonlighting for a private security company? Exactly what crime was being committed when the officer opened fire?
Oh, and please cite your source.
branford
(4,462 posts)The family claims they have a witness to their son's execution. They do not have to reveal the witness to the public, but until the witness goes to the authorities, they are effectively meaningless. If the witness does not trust the local police, they can approach the state police, district attorney or even the FBI. They can also retain counsel (likely pro bono) to protect their interests.
I also don't really care about the name of the witness. I do care, however, if they actually exist, what they allegedly witnessed, if they can identify anything that could possibly forensically confirm their claim of an execution, and if anything about them is a serious impediment to their credibility. I would assume that you, too, would want this information.
We've also repeatedly discussed the officers employment in this thread and others. It is commonplace for officers to work certain security jobs while not officially on-duty, and nothing appears to indicate the officer's employment was in any way improper or nefarious. Not only do police officers generally maintain all their powers, duties and obligations while not officially on-the-clock, in this instance, the officer was in his police uniform and driving a marked security vehicle. Numerous articles explain these simple and uncontested circumstances. You may not like these facts, but they are generally uncontested.
The officer was fully entitled to approach Myers and talk to him. He only needed probable cause for a physical search or arrest. The forensic evidence appears to conclusively prove that Myers had a gun and fired it at the officer. Since Myers was subject to bail conditions, the gun was definitely illegal (and Myers apparently should have been home under house arrest). If Myers ran when approached by the officer, particularly if he had any other suspicions of criminal activity (such as possession of a handgun), he was well within his authority to pursue. That would most certainly not entitle Myers to fire on the officer. If the officer was fired upon, however, he could shoot at Myers, now a proven and dangerous threat, even if he was fleeing.
I'm also somewhat confused by your tone. Despite the forensic evidence, prior criminal charges and social media postings, do you still subscribe to the family's claim that Myers was only armed with a sandwich?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)So now you change the subject and talk about the witness. From the link I posted, the Family's attorney relayed a statement from a witness. Are you implying that attorneys lie? Remember, you're one.
I don't care what is common for LEOs to do on off hours. I asked what crime had the dead guy committed that caused him to be pursued by the officer and to cite a source. You engaged in speculation. Something you have chastised people for repeatedly in this thread. Perhaps Myers should have been home under house arrest, this is his crime? The forensic evidence does not prove anything as it has not been presented in a court, nor has anyone had any opportunity to refute it.
Confused by my tone? Well, lets just say I'm equally confused by yours. You claim you are a defense attorney yet, while here you are completely pro LEO. I have not subscribed to anyone's claim, not LEOs nor the dead man's family's. YOU have assumed all this. You claim not to make judgments, yet you extensively justify the extra judicial killing of yet another young man of color without even a question in regards to whether or not LEO actions were legal.
But what better way to ensure that the truth will stay hidden than repeatedly attempt to shut down discussion to what I think are some very valid questions.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts).... half ass'd attention to the PEACEFUL protesters that the LEOs threatened KNOWS there's something wrong with the area LEOs... bottom line...
They are some greasy bastards...
They have no credibility...
NONE...
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)should be ok.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)anyone here take away your right to free speech. Supposed rules or not. Conspiracy theorist or not. There is a under the radar favoritism that is employed sometimes if one of the 'elite' gets offended or their feelings hurt by the truth. 
Oktober
(1,488 posts)... and it shouldn't be spent on something like this.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)With all shots being fired from behind except the one that hit him between his ear and eyebrow. In other words, the shot that killed him was in his temple, right? I understand that witnesses have said he was begging for his life before the last shot. My question, is it possible for gun powder to get on his hand(s) if he was shot while trying to protect his head with his hand(s)?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)gun was close enough when bullet was fired into his head, yes, entirely possibly. And thinking about this, how close was the 'peace officer' when he fired that last round into Myer's head?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)"Jerryl Christmas, one of the Myers family lawyers, said that witnesses have told their investigator that Myers was fleeing, and that he was "begging for his life" before the officer walked up and delivered the final shot"
I'll be the LEO's defenders will completely overlook this tidbit of info.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)you'll win....
branford
(4,462 posts)If someone would care to identify them, their testimony and the basis for their knowledge, we can engage in an intelligent discussion of the affect of the witness on a potential criminal charge against the officer.
However, the execution theory, at this juncture, is little more than rank speculation. The "witness" is a complete mystery and the family's autopsy does not prove or disprove the theory. The expert even explicitly stated that he couldn't ascertain the order of the wounds.
The family also still claims that Myers was armed only with a sandwich, despite the extensive and readily confirmable forensic evidence to the contrary. Accordingly, I'll give little to no credence to the execution theory until such time as supporting forensic evidence is presented, or we at least know far more about the family's alleged witness.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Please re-read, before you give me your lather, rinse, repeat response again.
Seriously, you're going to keep your angle of spin going? You are right, the expert did say that they could not ascertain the order of the wounds.
However, what you leave out is that the expert also said that the shots to the legs would have put the suspect down and the bullet to the temple would have rendered him unconscious. Hence, using the common sense that God gave a fingernail, it only stands to reason that the shot to the head was the last one.
branford
(4,462 posts)All the officer's shots were likely fired in the span of a couple of seconds. That is precisely why the expert noted that he couldn't determine the order of the wounds. For all intent and purposes, they were "simultaneous." Myers could easily have been shot in the head, and then legs, before falling unconscious. A competent attorney, no less prepared defense expert, would shred the conclusions that seem obvious to you.
In any event, even if the head wound occurred last, it proves very little. The autopsy does not prove that the officer fired the fatal shot well after Myers was no longer a threat, no less at close range.
I would also surmise that the expert specifically highlighted that he couldn't ascertain the order of the wounds in order not to be embroiled in the family's execution theory. He had no problem concluding that Myers was likely fleeing as it probably would not be a point of contention in the event of a trial. However, forensically claiming that an "execution" occurred appeared a bridge too far. I assume he would not relish the potential damage to his reputation that could result from an aggressive cross-examination on the issue.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)You expect me to believe that the cop fire all those shots at one time? That is the meaning of the word simultaneous if I am not mistaken? Just how many guns and hands did this cop have?
I did not assume anything. I based my opinion on what the person you referred to as "The Expert" said. The expert said that the shots to the legs took him down. That means he was no longer fleeing. The expert said that the shot between the eyebrow and the ear (i.e.Temple) rendered him unconscious. Are you now calling the expert a liar? But lets say that he was hit in the head with the bullet first or even the second or third shot. He was then unconscious, please explain to me the possible reasons for the officer to continue shooting his legs from behind.
branford
(4,462 posts)They are usually VERY quick, chaotic, involve a great number of shots with far fewer hits and have little room for reflection or hesitation. It's not a clinical situation, and nothing like the movies or television.
I would suggest you watch on TV or the internet some actual witness testimony and cross-examinations involving both contested and justified police shootings. I think you will be shocked.
Whether the head wound was first, last or somewhere in-between, is also not particularly relevant unless there exists other clear evidence that demonstrates that that Myers was fully incapacitated, the officer knew that he was neutralized, effectively paused, and then still rendered a killing blow (i.e., the execution). The author of the autopsy appears to skillfully avoid rendering any such conclusions.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)uses words and you have been very careless with your use of words in your conversation with me. So now you come back with the "I am an attorney, you know nothing" attitude once more.
And again I will say to you, the only people you will fool with that are your average Fox News viewers.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... then the temple.
The officer would have to be a damn good shot to get the temple from far off...
The SLPD are greasy bastards
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Call himself a defense attorney. If they still put prizes in boxes of Cracker Jacks, I think I know where he got his law degree.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... to come in and restore order to some degree.
If there were a molecule of salt to be given to them they lost it when they pointed guns at peoples grand mothers during peaceful protest and called them animals...
There's no way I'd give the SLCPD LEOs an ounce of benefit of the doubt...
Damn man...
You know, I saw a GP area LEO helping a lady when I came home and thought to myself that I'm SOOOOO Freakin blessed not to have to live by the FPD and SLCPD ...
Life would be hell...
I'm 6'5 and black...
damn
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)They appear to be a bunch of white supremacist just itching to commit genocide against minorities behind the protection of a badge.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)the experts can weigh in.
As I understand it, one need not actually discharge a firearm for GSR to lodge on one's body or clothing. Merely being in close proximity to a discharged firearm can produce GSR. With that in mind, if Myers was begging for his life when that officer approached, depending on how far the officer stood from Myers when he administered the final kill shot, it seems to me that it would indeed be possible for GSR to show up on Myers' corpse and clothing.
Since the article mentions that these witnesses have spoken to attorneys for Myers' family, I sincerely hope those attorneys are putting said witnesses into direct contact with attorneys for the U.S. DoJ's Civil Rights Division.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)eventually (and I don't care how militarized they become) law enforcement will not be able to drive or be seen on the streets without becoming a target of disgruntled civilians.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)of that society start to suffer a 'crisis of legitimacy,' with increasingly heavy-handed policing being met with acts of stochastic violence directed at police (Dorner) but also at vulnerable sub-groups (blacks and people of color, LGBT) in the population.
I realize that pinning my hopes on the U.S. Dept. of Justice is something of a slim reed, but I would note that Holder's DoJ does have a record of going after local law enforcement for practices and patterns like this. (I don't have the stats at hand, but seem to recall that they've brought enforcement actions against at least 11 local law enforcement agencies during President Obama's two terms of office.)
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)train wreck. No less a person than the Washington Post's Dana Milbank has declared the Grand Jury proceedings a total and complete farce and failure:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-ferguson-tragedy-becoming-a-farce/2014/09/12/e52226ca-3a82-11e4-9c9f-ebb47272e40e_story.html
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Personally, I'd like to see the Ferguson PD dissolved and Police services contracted out to a more credible department. In addition to charging Officer Wilson, I think it would go a long way in restoring confidence in LEOs there. Is there one in MO? What are the reputations of the county and state departments? Do you know?
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)as bad as Ferguson PD. That said, I have no idea whether the MO state patrol enjoys a better reputation there.
WRT Ferguson, I'd like to see U.S. Marshalls\FBI assume full policing powers in Ferguson, with local constabulary compelled (as part of a consent decree) to disarm and stand down, until the next round of municipal elections brings in a more representative municipal government. Not sure if that wish is realistic or feasible. But disarming and decommissioning those Ferguson PD seems to be the first order of business.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)thread and created a vigorous debate concerning the recent murders of unarmed and not a threat black males. I have seen what I tried to see to realize I was right about who was what and what their racial politics really consisted of. Thank you, you done more to expose so many and I'm done with this thread. Read you again I hope.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)am glad for forums like this where I can verbalize some of the strong feelings that these shootings have triggered in me. I'm sure you will hear more from me as time goes on, as I seem unable to keep my mouth shut for long when I see manifest injustice occurring before my eyes. I wish I lived closer physically to St. Louis -- I live in California -- so that I could lend my support in person to the resistance. For now, though, I am confined to lend only verbal support.