Traders Are 'Scared As Hell' Of What's Happening In Venezuela
Source: Business Insider
Venezuelan investors are abandoning ship en masse after the government indicated that it would not take immediate measures to stop the country from sinking deeper into chaos.
"I am scared as hell," one Latin American bond trader said. "Default [is] likely within 12 months; the oil price collapse [is] just adding to a completely dysfunctional political and financial situation."
This week the Venezuelan government reiterated that it would not devalue its currency, giving it more bolivars for every dollar. It does not want to do that because the country already has the highest inflation rate in the world, at 64%. The official exchange rate is 6.3 bolivars per dollar, but the black-market rate sits at 113.62 bolivars to the dollar.
In the meantime, Venezuela is already suffering from food shortages. A lot of that food along with other household goods is imported, and without the cash from oil, the government will not be able to subsidize those imports, according to a report by the research firm Stratfor.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/traders-scared-as-hell-of-venezuela-2014-11
I can't see any outcome for Venezuela other than defaulting.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Response to FLPanhandle (Original post)
IkeRepublican This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I can't see the opposition making any headway but I can see Chavez's "other little buddy" taking over "for the good of the nation."
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Maybe I'm old fashioned, but VZ ought to have been self-sufficient. It's not like it's a desert or anything. That they should have any kind of food shortages... it does not compute.
They have sunshine, they can go solar. They have water, they have land. They have open access to the waters between here and there. I understand they may want things that they cannot manufacture by themselves. But those should not be essentials.
I keep going back to a couple of simple things.
First, perhaps the land is not being used right, and maybe they need to have the ownership freed up to give people more food. They should be a success agriculturally. That doesn't mean they have to have all the modern implements and chemicals. The USA was self-sufficient food wise at one time without those more modern things.
Second, an interesting OP was made here about how we ask the wrong question about the food supply. I'm not sure that I bought all the concepts in the piece, but it was a good starting point. What it said, was that the problem is not a shortage of food, but of the means to buy it. They gave the example of the tourist who visits a country where some people are starving adn others are doing well. They have the money to buy their food, the poor do not and starve to death. It is a human problem, not a problem of capacity, or so that piece claimed.
Third, even sans education, modernity and luxuries, the people should not be in desperate straits. In fact, I'm sure most of them are not. This may all be media spin regarding how bad it really is in VZ.
Fourth, all the problems are political, AFAIK. Not going in the right direction. Are the poor, the wealthy or the government so intransigent that they will never be able to solve basic life issues? Who does not want these things resolved?
Fifth, I don't think that the USA is the reason they are unstable. The forces that are causing this mess are all internal and IMO, have been going on for many, mnay years.
Last, I don't know that the heck the solution is. There is something way off in VZ.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I'm sure the gov doesn't want the world to know how bad its managers are.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They are sitting on some of the largest oil reserves IN THE WORLD. They're OPEC members--you don't get in that club without a "minimum!"
They should be wealthy. Not just "OK" but rich as Roosevelts. They should be the salsa-merengue-tango version of Saudi Arabia. They should be able to import food from all over South America--beef from Brazil and Argentina, fruits and veggies from Peru, Ecuador, etc., they shouldn't have ANY want--they have enough oil to pay for everything.
Why aren't they? They "buy love" from Cuba with Free Oil. They also bribe their neighbors with cheap oil so that they won't go against them at OAS meetings. When they aren't giving away their wealth, they let the profits from their oil industry migrate to the oligarchy (aka the Boligarchs) who spend it carelessly and cackle at anyone who challenges their corruption.
They borrow huge sums from China--billions--in exchange for oil futures--they're selling the stuff at ten cents a gallon, in essence. And they'll still have to pump oil for Beijing long after that money is spent.
They ask people to fix their industry infrastructure, then refuse to pay them and nationalize their assets--for this reason, no one wants to help them anymore, and won't unless they are paid upfront. No one likes a weaseler/chiseller, and that is Venezuela in a nutshell. It's also why their infrastructure is falling apart and they can't pump at anywhere near capacity.
They don't pay their bills. That's why no planes will fly there, because any money for tickets purchased in VZ has to be "processed" through the gov't at their "official" exchange rate -- which is a joke. You can live like a king on a dollar a day if you find the right money exchanger who will keep his mouth shut--and that's assuming you don't get killed because they have--not the worst, they will INSIST--but the THIRD worst crime rate in the world. They actually might have the worst crime rate, most crimes are NOT solved, and who knows how many just aren't reported...because really, what's the point?
They bribe the loyal poor with stupid shit--here's some electricity for your shack, here's a cheap cell phone, here's a dumb-ass job sweeping the street. Show up at the Maduro rally and cheer like hell, we'll give you a frozen chicken for your trouble! This might not seem like a big deal, but when the line to get into the supermarket stretches for a half mile or more, and you have to worry about getting robbed when you come out of the store with your ration of toothpaste, dishwashing liquid, toilet paper and arepa flour, and there's no meat to be had so forget about that, you can see what a hellish life it is.
This is not "spin." This is how it is. There is a massive diaspora going on and anyone who can get out of VZ, with options (i.e. a job, a way to support oneself) does it. Puerto Rico--which isn't doing so great, either--is thick with VZans, so's FL, metro DC and a host of other communities in USA. It's AWFUL. The joke is "Why buy toilet paper? It's cheaper to use the money instead." The place is failing and there's no damn reason for it, save corruption and a really, really stupid world view.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a coup enroute--and not by the opposition, from inside the power structure. Maduro, the Colombian incompetent, is way past his sell-by date and needs to go.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)I'm amazed at the on-the-ground knowledge you seem to have.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I passed through there many years ago. It's a beautiful country with lots of great natural beauty, but that doesn't do anyone any good if you take your life into your hands travelling there. The potential for being a crime victim is enormous there, the murder rate is out of sight.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)I can think of examples of plentiful food being in the control of venal managers..India, for one, has had this problem for ages, where grain supplies are being withheld for more money.
And of people starving because conditions outside of their control have destroyed the food supply....either by droughts/floods, or by cruel political practices, ie: China's Mao created famine by destroying land and markets.
There are countries which have chosen to sell their food via external markets rather than make it available to the general population.
the issue with VZ seems to be a matter of politics, and of foreign control over resources.
The USA gov'ts have invaded damn near every So. American country in order to control resources down there,
so scratch the surface deep enough and you will find we were involved in what is happening, to some degree.
A more immediate concern is what you said: " The USA was self-sufficient food wise at one time....."
I am very concerned that our country has chosen to sell off or export or destroy the resources we need to be more self sufficient.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Actually i can't think of any South American countries the US has invaded.
Central America and the Caribbean yes, but not South America. (which is everything south of Panama)
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)The USA gov' has invaded/intervened in damn near every So. American country.
and could have added as recently as 2002 in Venezuela.
The Guardian has a good story on that:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/21/usa.venezuela
and Wiki has a list of US "interventions"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)What food production there is is all in private hands, as are the stores.
I smell a capital strike.
christx30
(6,241 posts)who can really blame them? You have a government telling everyone that people with money are evil. You have that government siezing people's property right and left. At some point I would do everything I could to move my money off shore (myself, if I could) to keep it from being stolen.
And a capital strike is basically saying "You need us more than we need you. Change your policies to be more fair to us, and we'll start investing. Otherwise, good luck."
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)They needed to be shaken up. They have had income inequality worse than ours for hundreds of years, with the European-descended people blatantly lording it over the people of Indian, African, and mixed descent.
Have you ever seen the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"? I recommend it, even if you think it's "Marxist propaganda."
The filmmakers did not know the coup was going to take place when they went to Venezuela, and they went around filming reactions to Chavez from various types of people. They filmed a group of wealthy people who essentially complained that Chavez had made their servants uppity. As I remarked to another DUer who happened to be at the screening, "Did you ever see such a bunch of country club Republicans in your life?"
I doubt that the Venezuelan government is telling the poor that "people with money are evil." They've already figured out for themselves that people with money (there and sometimes here) think of themselves as a better breed of human being and consider it their right to treat the poor like dirt. Remember: the poorer Latin American countries have long lived in a "libertarian paradise" of no restrictions on business or social safety net. Many of the wealthy there ARE evil.
The elites of such countries are like fundamentalist Christians claiming "persecution" when they don't get to run things.
You must be reading the National Review or the Wall Street Journal or something like that if you think a capital strike is anything except the equivalent of holding your breath till you turn blue. You sound like the American oligarchs saying that can't invest in America because of "uncertainty."
Well, I've been self-employed for twenty-one years, so I know that business is one "uncertainty" after other. It's a bullshit excuse by people who are so accustomed to making scads of money all the time that the thought of ANY reduction in their net worth infuriates them.
By the way, when the unsuccessful coup occurred in 2002--with the plotters "restoring democracy" by arresting the legally elected president, dissolving the national legislature, and abolishing the supreme court--the Bush administration, alone of all the Western nations, practically fell over its own feet to grant diplomatic recognition the illegal action.
Is Maduro the sharpest tool in the drawer? No, but the wealthy of Venezuela are REALLY poor sports and have been trying--with U.S. encouragement--to undermine the legal, internationally recognized government of their country ever since a dark-skinned man (Chavez) had the gall to be elected president.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)What makes you think he was "dark skinned"? Or that anybody cared about his skin color?
And the US does has lots of dealing with "dark skinned" politicians....you have heard of Africa, right?
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)Reading comprehension!
I was referring to the racial attitudes of the European-descended elites IN VENEZUELA. And in fact, Chavez was the first president of Venezuela to not be of pure European descent.
Gee, I wonder if there are any other countries where some people object to having a mixed-race president.
hack89
(39,171 posts)That and declining oil production in a time of falling oil prices.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)If food and fuel can sell for twice as much across the border smuggling will happen for certain.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)This is, in part, due to a global economic shift. Oil makes up 95% of Venezuela's exports, and the commodity has gotten absolutely crushed in the past month down 28%. Some accuse Saudi Arabia of keeping the price low to compete with the world's burgeoning natural gas industry an allegation the Kingdom and OPEC have categorically denied.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/traders-scared-as-hell-of-venezuela-2014-11#ixzz3Iytzfgu7
The Keystone Pipeline will exacerbate the situation as it ships Bakken crude to New Orleans to be processed and sold abroad. And what benefits to the U.S.?
As far as new jobs go, the State Department estimates the operation of the pipeline will only create 35 permanent, full-time jobs and 15 temporary contractors. The full-time workers would be "required for annual operations, including routine inspections, maintenance and repair." Some would work in a Nebraska field office.
The lack of many full-time positions makes sense, given that the project is to build a pipeline so that tar sands can travel without the need of rail cars or ships. The State Department figures construction would require around 10,400 seasonal workers for stretches that would last either four or eight months. This works out to 3,900 "average annual" jobs over one year of construction, or 1,950 jobs each year if the project takes two years to finish. Construction work would be spread over four states, Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas, though most workers would be specialized and need to be brought in from outside those states, the report notes.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/11/anna-kooiman/fox-news-host-keystone-pipeline-would-create-tens-/
So we'd trade off invaluable, irreplaceable natural resources in exchange for 35 permanent, full-time jobs and 15 temporary contractors - oh and of course gifting Frackers and their one percent owners with vastly increased profits.
The Senate Dems are cashing in on their last hurrah before losing the majority by calling up this legislation - while they still have the power to trigger lobbyists' donations. Once the Republicans have the majorities in both chambers, the lobbyists will be few and far between for Dem. politicians.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)neighborhood several years ago and there were enough jobs to notice that there were a lot of people from out of the area living here for a bit. When the pipeline was done they all disappeared and the only jobs I have seen since is when there was a leak in the coldest time of the winter they were back for about a month. Otherwise someone checks on the pumps about once a month.
From the cars parked at the job sight I would say that there were no more than 50 workers in all.
7962
(11,841 posts)A lot of people will build a bridge, highway, skyscraper, etc. and once the project is over they move on. But they have good jobs for the year/years it takes to DO it. The pipeline is no different; it will employ lots of people until its complete. But for THAT period of time, a lot of people will have jobs. I have friends in engineering who travel quite a bit doing different projects. They make good money, but the work only lasts 6-8 months. Then they move on to the next job.
The oil isnt going away, its gonna be shipped one way or another. Might as well get work out of it.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)I'd rather it be in a pipeline built with todays technology. Like I said, one way or another, its gonna come through the country at some point. MAybe make approval conditional on a specific type of construction. I remember when they started double hulled shipping tankers. maybe a quadruple hulled pipe? I'm NOT an engineer, but I bet theres is a way to build a fairly safe pipeline without breaking the bank
jwirr
(39,215 posts)west of it they have a lot of desert instead of fresh water.
7962
(11,841 posts)Or the president could come out and say "you know, i could support a pipeline if we did it THIS way". Then the GOP would look bad again, because most of the public would say "well, that sounds fair, why cant we build it THAT way?"
And actually, that idea would go for a lotof things. If a republican said, well here's a raise in the minimum wage X cents a yr for 5 years. Or indexed to inflation. Whatever. It would be hard for Dems to come out against it, because its a raise, even if its not as much as they'd like.
Darb
(2,807 posts)go fuck themselves and try another route. Oil prices will affect this fool-hardy venture. Maybe if the US doesn't play along the Canadians will come to their senses and not put the nail in the climate change coffin.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)but wonder if this even has anything to do with her books revelations? What is the USA doing in Venezuela lately? There's oil so I cannot believe we are not involved in some way.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)when his administration immediately pledged its support to the junta that overthrew Chavez, only to be rebuffed when Chavez came back into power a couple of days later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt
7962
(11,841 posts)Of course, Maduro would drag that out of the past as an excuse just as he blames Obama as much or more than Bush!
And even though it makes me throw up a little in my mouth, I wonder what shape VZ would be in had that coup been a success? I doubt they'd be worse off than now.
harun
(11,348 posts)Capitalist pig.
7962
(11,841 posts)Even the poorest countries in Africa has something to wipe their rear with!
It is all made up by the Corporate media as part of their zero tolerance of any system other than total submission to neo-liberal capitalism.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)harun
(11,348 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)But then, maybe you really DO believe the hogwash that comes from the VZ government, since your icon is that mythical leader Ernesto Lynch.
Regardless, the Venezuelan "Revolution" will be over in the next 10 yrs. They've sunk so low in the first 15 it would be hard to survive another 10 of the same poverty!!
It'd be nice if they had a leader who actually BELIEVED in the freedom of the people.
Throd
(7,208 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)delta17
(283 posts)Through labor, of course.
harun
(11,348 posts)Yer killing me with laughter.
Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)by their load of feverish, non-stop hate-driven misinformation in their effort to misdirect citizens' attention.
Why don't we all give up and just get back to shopping? That's what Dubya would want.
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 15, 2014, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)
...the whole 60%+ inflation....scarcity of consumer goods...one of the highest murder rates in the world....the brain drain and capital flight...the violent suppression of protests..the mismanagement and corruption...the govt control of the media...etc, ad nauseum.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Yer both killing me because I'm laughing so hard.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/ezln/1997/jigsaw.html
EX500rider
(10,847 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)where it will offer whichever Gov't is in power huge loans, in return for certain .....considerations.
Said considerations have been austerity for the citizens, privatization for whichever international companies want to buy.
True to form.
Ask Spain and Italy and Ireland and Greece and etc.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)Given the available hydrocarbon resources, I'm CERTAIN that this little debacle is nothing that some IMF-imposed 'austerity' and 'privatization' cannot 'solve' in short order ..
hack89
(39,171 posts)they have shortages of basic necessities like food, medicines and electricity. They also have a skyrocketing crime rate.
Even if the IMF doesn't step in, VZ is in for a rough time - they are too dependent on oil revenue which is coming to head now that oil prices are falling. Add in falling oil production due to decrepit infrastructure and a shortage of foreign reserves to import goods and they are in a true mess.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)and your people into slaves. The shortages will continue while you use the resources of your nation to provide exports to the developed world to pay the loans off. All you have to do is look at the colonialization of Africa to see that. Many of them starve and go without healthcare in order to grow/produce products like peanuts that are shipped to America. And the peanuts are grown on land they used to live on and use to provide their own foods.
hack89
(39,171 posts)so regardless of whether the IMF steps in, VZ will have to cut government spending. It is not complicated.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)action all over the world and it is not working. Austerity does not work. I only makes things worse for the people.
hack89
(39,171 posts)because trust me, the people of VZ will experience austerity and yes, it will be worse for them.
... You certainly can't do anything about shortages if you try to force companies to sell goods for way less than their market value, and even production costs. This simplistic approach to socialism cannot succeed.
MADem
(135,425 posts)...and they've promised to pay it off in oil. They've squandered all the money they got from China on ... shit. They've nothing to show for it.
When the paint is peeling on the presidential palace, you know that no one gives a shit anymore.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)and We've squandered all the money we got from China on ... shit. Have nothing to show for it, too.
Well, except for enriching the 1% who have cleverly moved the money offshore.
VZ, here we come.
hack89
(39,171 posts)VZ can't. They can't even provide basic essentials like food, medicine and electricity.
Our economy is growing. Theirs is shutting down.
MADem
(135,425 posts)We gave them paper, promissory notes, and that's ALL we gave them. We traded them paper for crap, in essence. We kept their people working, and we played with their plastic shit. It's not the same dynamic at all. Maduro has given away the store--the oil that is the engine of their economy.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Increasingly-Desperate-Venezuela-Makes-Oil-for-Cash-Deal-With-China.html
I suppose you equate standing in line waiting for the "Apple store" to open to sell their new version of shit the same as .... this?
\
I had an economics professor (who was with the IMF for a time) who used to joke that if you needed more money, you just printed more. It's a simplistic solution, and it can work if someone is trying to gouge you, but Maduro has taken it sixty steps too far--which is why inflation in VZ is at 63 percent.
There's no excuse for the mismanagement in VZ. It wasn't great when Chavez was in fair health and running the show, but it wasn't getting worse. Under Maduro, the nation's birthright has been squandered. They are now in extremis.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)can buy them off and take over the country and control the oil. Sounds familiar.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)The emails, WikiLeaks goes on to explain, show Stratfor's web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.
GreenLeft: WikiLeaks reveals imperialist plots against Venezuela
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)but not that surprising. We are and have been waging a covert war against Venezuela for a long time. Bush tried an unsuccessful coup. And the Dems have their Endowment for Democracy, which is a more subtle front for CIA actions. It's surprising they've lasted this long.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)We work hard enough at destabilizing an upstart country and it ultimately begins to resemble the fiction we created to discredit it.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)They get all the oil they want from VZ along with a socialist economy imploding from mismanagement. I think the "capitalists" are very happy.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)And no DOUBT 'the Capitalists' have in NO WAY WHATSOEVER conspired to attempt to assure a Leftist Latin American government, hostile to the IMF and the USA ... has crumbled.
Of course, the problem HAS to simply be 'mismanagement' ... of course along with the evils of Leftist/Socialism in general ... that are the causative factors in the problems there.
NO way it could be anything else. Not with the United State's (and it's business interests) well-known, and century-old 'Hands Off' policy when it comes to Central/South America and it's resources ... especially when it comes to Left-leaning countries!
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)We don't need their oil.
Their "hostility" is meaningless to us.
Every action they take has far worse consequences than even the best CIA pipe dream.
You over-estimate Venezuela and how much the Obama cares about them.
hack89
(39,171 posts)there have been well managed socialist countries. VZ is not one of them.
Look no further than their currency laws that have created a shortage of dollars and wreck the economy.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... is where the anger is coming from.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)daleo
(21,317 posts)Where have I heard that beforehand? Oh, yeah, the U.S. was going over a cliff this time last year, according to frightened bond traders.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)the boat
candelista
(1,986 posts)Are you people sure you are on the right site?
hack89
(39,171 posts)is not a RW position - it is the truth. Are you going to argue that things are going well? Or do you belong in the "its a CIA plot" camp?
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I find that DU's low-information crowd is often most visible in threads about complex international matters.
I've seen strong opinions expressed here of late on the Middle East, on ISIL, on Russia, etc. that shows quite limited understanding of what they're on about.
I for one am not alarmed by this, as this offers an opportunity for better-informed posters to inform posters and readers about how things are often not quite so black-and-white.
I confess I don't often do my part in this light-shedding, but I see others who do so, and I commend them for it.
I know that on some topics where I'm pretty low-information myself, that I learn a great deal here from people who really know what they are posting about. Boards like this provide value when that happens.
7962
(11,841 posts)The facts on the ground in VZ speak for themselves. 15 years of failure and poverty along with another corrupt government.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)a serious economic issue or at least how it has nothing to do with their own policies. I hate being a "low information poster" so please, educate me.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)"You people?" Some of us have heard THAT before....
Maduro and Chavez FUCKED the people of VZ by keeping them down and giving away THEIR birthright to Cuba. Are you sure YOU'RE on the right site? You think it's "OK" to ration basic goods while the Boligarchs live high off the hog? Would you stand in a line like this in an ostensibly wealthy nation?
Good grief, what nerve, to call people rightwingers because they think that people who live in a country ought to enjoy the fruits of it, not let their leaders fart through silk while they spend the money on themselves and their "good friends" who fawn over them from a repressive island in the Caribbean...
I guess you think the government censorship of the VZ media and internet is "OK" too--and the government murder of students during the demonstrations was just hunky dory as well?
And you really think this kind of nonsense is helpful? Here, read-LEARN:
Maduro ya se maduró , quipped vendor Maribel Nieble, with a play on the presidents last name that meant Maduro has turned rotten.
She had a sorry-looking pile of bananas on her stand, but it was really just a facade. Hidden underneath in a dirty fruit crate were several illicit bottles of Downy-brand laundry detergent and cooking oil. When a bus pulled up and Nieble didnt see any troops, she quickly set out her wares, concealing them again once the crowds thinned.
I feel like a drug dealer, she said.
In stores, the detergents price was capped at the equivalent of about 60 cents, if using the governments highest official exchange rate of 50 bolivars per dollar. Nieble was selling her Downy for twice that.
I have six kids and two grandchildren, she said. Im just trying to survive.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/with-goods-scarce-in-caracass-stores-street-sales-boom-and-officials-glower/2014/11/13/95b79f52-87da-442b-b7b3-cb0989903dd7_story.html
Talk about missing the point...
7962
(11,841 posts)I feel terribly for the people of VZ, they really should be doing so much better than they are doing. VZ should be the jewel of South America with all that oil they've been sitting on for years--instead, they're a mess.
7962
(11,841 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Are you sure you're on the right site?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)there's a thread on Latin America.
Anyone who's determined to find the truth, after starting to suspect something seems a little creepy, and strange about the right-wing gibberish should be encouraged to take heart, and start researching whenever and wherever possible for the real information which gets obscured in the ugly fog created by people who are at complete odds with democracy who dominate so many attempted exchanges here.
Only personal effort can take you in the direction of the truth. Lies come at you constantly for free, unfortunately.
In time, what's right for ALL human beings will come, and replace the orgy of self-indulgence at the expense of the many by the most aggressively greedy and treacherous.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)in the VN. Govt.
Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)The troll cluster here passes on, with great heat, what the oddly crafted right-wing line is.
Much better spewed at Free Republic, clearly.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)EX500rider
(10,847 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 15, 2014, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)
So which part is a lie Judi?
Over 60% inflation, is that a lie?
Shortage of basic necessities, is that a lie?
2nd highest murder rate in the America's?
Brain drain so bad you have to bring in Cuban doctors cause most the local ones fled the country?
Falling oil production due to mismanagement and corruption?
Failing electrical infrastructure?
Violent suppression of protests?
Arresting and jailing of opposition leaders?
Please enlighten us.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I wouldn't expect a coherent reply, except to post more articles from the 50's, 60's and 70's that she thinks are relevant to today's situation in VN.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)the VN govt is a troll and belongs over at FR?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Likewise, it possible to favor populist economics and recognize an incompetent authoritarian in Maduro.
The man thinks he can control the economy by ordering price levels. That's beyond idiotic.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Sounds like you'd fit right in.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... One can support populist economics and even socialism while recognizing inept asshats. It doesn't do the progressive movement any good at all to support obviously incompetent leadership, regardless of support for the underlying ideology.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)What we see in Venezuela is the WORST kind of an attempt at socialism. You cannot mandate prices at unrealistic levels and artificially try to control the exchange rate of the currency at unsupportable levels. That is ASKING for economic trouble.
It is a preposterous position to say that you must support an incompetent and autocratic "leftist" merely because you agree with the underlying ideology.
I can, for example, love baseball while hating a particular player because he sucks.
You can be a leftist and think the Chavistas are hopelessly out of their depth, and alarmingly autocratic.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)With the CIA and Goldman lurking in the background.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)It's what they did to Chile in 1973, but Venezuela has the advantage of knowing how the story turned out in Chile.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)No, no, can't have that now can we? Not in the workers paradise of the Chavistas.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)I did not.
But I suggest doing some reading on the Chilean coup of 1973. There were shortages that were the result of a capital strike by the disgruntled elites of Chile, urged on by the CIA.
Most of the Venezuelan economy is still in private hands. If it's a wreck, then the private sector bears some responsibility.
We don't accept the excuse of "uncertainty" when American right-wing executives refuse to invest in America. Why should we trust right-wing executives in Venezuela?
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)so business owners can't make a profit and have to turn to the black market, you can't exactly blame them for a toilet paper shortage.
No one sells below cost and stays in business for long. And that goes for the poor woman on the street selling bananas, too.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but the govt is dictating what prices they can set for their goods, so for all intents and purposes, those businesses aren't in private hands anymore.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)if you will recall, as an attempt to control inflation.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Too bad Maduro hasn't learned the lesson of Nixon.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Archae
(46,327 posts)It was created initially for business, someone does well, and gets a promotion.
And proceeds to get in way over their head.
This can apply elsewhere, and in Venezuela it has.
Maduro is on way over his head and is beginning the autocratic "banana republic" methodology.
Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)Had to run off for a quick search grab to remind people just how this term came into use, for chrissakes.
Banana Republic
"Although the United States is, uh, a very rich country and San Marcos is a very poor one, there are a great many things we have to offer your country in return for aid. For instance, there, uh, there are locusts."
Fielding Mellish, Bananas
Any backwards tropical country (almost always fictitious, more often than not Latin American), that is ruled by a small corrupt clique (often but not always presided over by a man with a chest full of medals and epic facial hair). Also known in Spanish as "República Bananera" or "República del Plátano". Usually a People's Republic of Tyranny or a Puppet State. Will probably contain Jailbirds of Panama.
The terms has its origins in the United Fruit Company, an honest-to-god Mega Corp. with a Corrupt Corporate Executive approach. With the help of their buddies in the CIA, and some "well-intentioned" and actually well intentioned American presidents, United Fruit created countless US-friendly military dictatorships throughout the tropics dedicated to growing bananas. In these countries, United Fruit paid extremely low wages and close to zero taxes. Marxist and Maoist guerrillas surfaced everywhere, and a cycle of civil wars and dictatorial overthrows ensued.
Since it was usually the Communists who opposed the dictatorships note , in Latin America, the term is associated with countries that have governments that are controlled by multinational corporations, and not with just any decadent dictatorship per se. In Europe and the U.S, the connotation tends to fall more closely with that of any dictatorship in any tropical country, capitalist, socialist, or what have you. Although, possible exceptions notwithstanding, there aren't really any left in Latin America these days, they can still be found in Africa and Southeast Asia.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BananaRepublic
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Wikipedia:
Original banana republic
The history of the first banana republic begins with the introduction of the banana to the US in 1870, by Lorenzo Dow Baker, captain of the schooner Telegraph. He initially bought bananas in Jamaica and sold them in Boston at a 1,000 percent profit.[7] The banana proved popular with Americans, as a nutritious tropical fruit that was less expensive than fruit grown locally in the U.S., such as apples. In 1913, for example, twenty-five cents bought a dozen bananas, but only two apples.[8] Its popularity among Americans was also spurred by the American railroad tycoons Henry Meiggs and his nephew, Minor C. Keith, who in 1873 began establishing banana plantations along the railroads they built in Costa Rica to produce food for their railroad workers. This experience led them to recognize the potential profitability of exporting bananas for sale, and they began exporting the fruit to the Southeastern United States.[9]
In the mid-1870s, to manage the new industrial-agriculture business enterprise in the countries of Central America, Keith founded the Tropical Trading and Transport Company: one-half of what would later become the United Fruit Company (Chiquita Brands International, created in 1899 by corporate merger with the Boston Fruit Company and owned by Andrew Preston). By the 1930s, the international political and economic tensions of the United Fruit Company had enabled it to gain control of 80 to 90 per cent of the U.S. banana trade.[10] Nonetheless, despite the UFC monopoly, in 1924, the Vaccaro Brothers established the Standard Fruit Company (Dole Food Company) to export Honduran bananas to the port of New Orleans in the Gulf of Mexico coast of the U.S. The fruit exporters were able to keep U.S. prices so low because the banana companies, through their manipulation of the producing countries' national land use laws, were able to cheaply buy large tracts of prime agricultural land for banana plantations in the countries of the Caribbean Basin, the Central American isthmus, and the tropical South American countries and, having rendered the native peoples landless through a policy of legalistic dispossession, were therefore able to employ them as low-wage workers.[9]
Moreover, by the late 19th century, three American multinational corporations the United Fruit Company, the Standard Fruit Company, and the Cuyamel Fruit Company dominated the cultivation, harvesting, and exportation of bananas, and controlled the road, rail, and port infrastructure of Honduras. In the northern coastal areas near the Caribbean Sea, the Honduran government ceded to the banana companies 500 hectares (1,235.52 acres) for each kilometre of railroad laid, even though there was still no passenger or freight railroad to Tegucigalpa, the national capital city. Among the Honduran people, the United Fruit Company was known as El Pulpo ("The Octopus" , because its influence had come to pervade their society, controlled their country's transport infrastructure, and sometimes violently manipulated national politics.[11]
[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
The history of the first banana republic begins with the introduction of the banana to the US in 1870, by Lorenzo Dow Baker, captain of the schooner Telegraph. He initially bought bananas in Jamaica and sold them in Boston at a 1,000 percent profit.[7] The banana proved popular with Americans, as a nutritious tropical fruit that was less expensive than fruit grown locally in the U.S., such as apples. In 1913, for example, twenty-five cents bought a dozen bananas, but only two apples.[8] Its popularity among Americans was also spurred by the American railroad tycoons Henry Meiggs and his nephew, Minor C. Keith, who in 1873 began establishing banana plantations along the railroads they built in Costa Rica to produce food for their railroad workers. This experience led them to recognize the potential profitability of exporting bananas for sale, and they began exporting the fruit to the Southeastern United States.[9]
In the mid-1870s, to manage the new industrial-agriculture business enterprise in the countries of Central America, Keith founded the Tropical Trading and Transport Company: one-half of what would later become the United Fruit Company (Chiquita Brands International, created in 1899 by corporate merger with the Boston Fruit Company and owned by Andrew Preston). By the 1930s, the international political and economic tensions of the United Fruit Company had enabled it to gain control of 80 to 90 per cent of the U.S. banana trade.[10] Nonetheless, despite the UFC monopoly, in 1924, the Vaccaro Brothers established the Standard Fruit Company (Dole Food Company) to export Honduran bananas to the port of New Orleans in the Gulf of Mexico coast of the U.S. The fruit exporters were able to keep U.S. prices so low because the banana companies, through their manipulation of the producing countries' national land use laws, were able to cheaply buy large tracts of prime agricultural land for banana plantations in the countries of the Caribbean Basin, the Central American isthmus, and the tropical South American countries and, having rendered the native peoples landless through a policy of legalistic dispossession, were therefore able to employ them as low-wage workers.[9]
Moreover, by the late 19th century, three American multinational corporations the United Fruit Company, the Standard Fruit Company, and the Cuyamel Fruit Company dominated the cultivation, harvesting, and exportation of bananas, and controlled the road, rail, and port infrastructure of Honduras. In the northern coastal areas near the Caribbean Sea, the Honduran government ceded to the banana companies 500 hectares (1,235.52 acres) for each kilometre of railroad laid, even though there was still no passenger or freight railroad to Tegucigalpa, the national capital city. Among the Honduran people, the United Fruit Company was known as El Pulpo ("The Octopus" , because its influence had come to pervade their society, controlled their country's transport infrastructure, and sometimes violently manipulated national politics.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic
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GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)Take the time to form a thought before posting.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)I'm truly sorry that you can't recognize it, or you can but can't bring yourself to admit it.
Either way, I'll be surprised if Maduro is still around in 12 months.
VN. is in for some hard times due to the ineptness of Pres. Maduro and his comrades.
Archae
(46,327 posts)Censorship of media.
Hired goons.
Arbitrary "rule by decree."
State control of goods.
Mismanagement and corruption the norm.
The biggest difference is the ideology.
Nearly all banana republics were (or are) right-wing.
Maduro is left-wing.
Otherwise the pattern is there.
Judi Lynn
(160,530 posts)and serve the interests of the US before those of their own people.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)then demand the country pay the debt in full, thus killing many citizens?
see Greg Palast and his reporting on this
These pigs should be arrested and executed
hack89
(39,171 posts)As for the citizens, they are killing themselves just fine - they have the second highest murder rate in the world.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Hyperinflation, food rationing, and you need to wipe your ass with newspaper because there is no toilet paper.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)This was the event that radicalized Chavez, and a whole lot of other people.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Venezuelan_oil_industry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease
"In economics, the Dutch disease is the apparent relationship between the increase in the economic development of natural resources and a decline in the manufacturing sector (or agriculture). The mechanism is that an increase in revenues from natural resources (or inflows of foreign aid) will make a given nation's currency stronger compared to that of other nations (manifest in an exchange rate), resulting in the nation's other exports becoming more expensive for other countries to buy, and imports becoming cheaper, making the manufacturing sector less competitive. While it most often refers to natural resource discovery, it can also refer to "any development that results in a large inflow of foreign currency, including a sharp surge in natural resource prices, foreign assistance, and foreign direct investment".
The term was coined in 1977 by The Economist to describe the decline of the manufacturing sector in the Netherlands after the discovery of a large natural gas field in 1959.
The Government should also consider the advice of an opposition Economist,that is to default:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-07/venezuelan-default-suggested-by-harvard-economist.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)A bond trader who is scared to death, therefore, is a bond trader looking to buy.
Imajika
(4,072 posts)At least working out as well as anyone with a lick of economic sense knew it would.
This kind of socialism simply doesn't work. Ever.
On the upside I hear that Maduro is guaranteeing a happy Christmas by ordering stores to discount toys and electronics. As if these command and control, top down economic decisions ever had any chance of creating a serious economy. Venezuela is a complete basket case and it is only a matter of time before it implodes. Then the Chavez/Maduro keyboard commando's will go the way the folks that used to defend Robert Mugabe on here years ago (and yes, there were a cadre of folks who did precisely that).
7962
(11,841 posts)Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Just saying
I also know someone in the US media that generate a lot of this "news" Cavez straight up jacked his grandpa for about a billion dollars. While still disgustingly rich the fact that he has chosen covering Ven in the media as his vocation pretty much tells you what you need to know.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Venezuela has mostly heavy oil that costs more to refine and the shale oil and tar sands in the US and Canada are dirtier still, which means low prices could suck the profit clean out of it.
sendero
(28,552 posts)...larious.
Anyone paying the slightest attention would be worried about Europe, Japan and the good ole USA where the markets are all totally corrupted by printed money and bankster accomodation.
To single out an insignificant country like Venezuala is pathetic.
Kaleva
(36,299 posts)" The number of Cuban medical professionals defecting from their posts in Venezuela has ballooned in the past year, and many of them are winding up in the United States."
http://www.ibtimes.com/cuban-doctors-flee-venezuela-help-us-parole-program-1725034
brooklynite
(94,561 posts)...you know, show your faith in the Bolivarian revolution. With the pro investors pulling out there should be bargain basement investments to snap up.