'DE BLASIO, OUR BACKS HAVE TURNED TO YOU' Cold war between NYPD cops, de Blasio takes to skies

[1step]

Source: NY Daily News

?727

The bad blood between NYPD cops and Mayor de Blasio became an air war Friday.

A plane trailing a banner reading "DE BLASIO, OUR BACKS HAVE TURNED TO YOU" flew over the Hudson River in a show of disdain for the mayor after two officers were executed in their squad car in Brooklyn last Saturday.

Ashley Chalmers, head of Jersey Shore Aerial Advertising, told the Daily News the people who paid for the message "want to remain anonymous."

But former cop John Cardillo blogged that a "large and unified group of current and retired NYC police officers, detectives, & supervisors" asked him to post a lengthy statement about the plane once it was in sight over the city shortly before 9 a.m.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/anti-de-blasio-banner-hudson-river-article-1.2057155

---

This is the bad thing. Dangerous, even, if the statement sent to Cardillo (click article link) is authentic.

Edited to add direct link to Cardillo's blog post.

[villager]

1. NYPD have openly declared war against the citizenry, with this move

So what happens now?

[1step]

4. Someone should call the po--wait.

[JDPriestly]

18. Police officers need to be told by their superiors that they have to respect civil authority

and the will of the voters. They have other means for speaking out about their grievances.

If they are unhappy in their work, they should get other jobs. Maybe policing is not their thing. Being a police officer means working for the people and the officials the people elect. There just is no way around that.

And yes, American families are more and more diverse. That is one of the reasons that you see so many white people in the demonstrations about police brutality toward minoriities.

In one generation, between the all-white siblings in mine, and the intermarriages and inter-racial adoptions in the generation of our children, we are seeing the reality of diversity if our family. And we are not that unusual.

If you received the Christmas greeting from Elizabeth Warren, you see that her family is also ethnically and racially diverse. I do not want my racially and ethnically diverse great-nephews and nieces and my own racially diverse grandchildren to suffer from police brutality based on racial stereotypes. I have a stake in this.

The police are servants of the people and serve at the will of the authorities elected by the people. If they don't like it, they should find another job.

[THECHOSEN1]

110. That's good stuff

They are public sector jobs but employed by the government. Much like teachers, firefighters and other public sector union employees, right??? You sound like Scott Walker.

[JDPriestly]

125. I did a lot of research on speech rights at one time.

They have the right to free speech.

On the other hand, if you had a job in which you are not working for the government and you turned your back on your boss, what would happen?

We need police, but we need police who don't panic, don't act violently out of anger and who can solve problems wisely, not just react.

Some time ago, Bill Maher talked about the excessive use of force that is so common among American police officers. He compared the amount of ammunition shot by the police in the USA with that in Germany and the carrying of weapons in the UK with that in the USA. It's quite interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017234864

This is not just about the police.

We worship violence in this country. I would dare to say that we should ask ourselves whether we have one very large cult of violence in our country.

Of course, the police, who have to deal with that violent cult on an almost daily basis, are overly nervous and overly violent themselves.

Our children join the cult of violence in pre-school. One kid starts talking about Batman and Spiderman and killing people, and pretty soon every four-year-old in the class is talking and thinking about violence, killing and cruelty.

The police are on the front line of dealing with violence. They need to take responsibility for any part they play in furthering the cult of violence. They need to be the grown-ups here and urge the nation to non-violence.

The back-turning is an immature denial of the role of the police officer. I hope that some enlightened union leaders will see the broader problem for what it is -- the cult of violence in the country that not only endangers peace officers' lives, but those of all Americans, rich and especially poor.

I am very disappointed in the reaction of the officers in New York City. They have an opportunity to change the country for the better. Instead they are pouting.

Of course, it is their right to exercise their free speech -- but is it wise to do it the way they are? No.

They have the right to free speech, but if it goes further into insubordination, then they should be fired. That is my opinion.

I feel great compassion for the families that have lost their loved ones. I note that neither of the slain officers was white, neither had a history of being excessively violent as far as the news reports go, so it is extremely unfair that they were scapegoated for the wrongs of people who probably should not have been in the police force in the first place.

I repeat my message: The police officers should be the first to begin a campaign for non-violence in the US. They are losing the most in this very violent culture.

[randys1]

126. This is a true statement...Obama should send in the fucking army

[msongs]

2. with their backs turned at least they cannot murder anyone standing in front of them nt

[Dont call me Shirley]

3. The cops are acting like spoiled rotten brats who have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar

yet continue to deny it is so. Then attack the grown up who has a solution to the problem the brats created in the first place.

[inanna]

5. How mature. n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

6. This may backfire

I smell Gouliani in this...

[Cha]

102. 'Cause it stinks like Guiliani.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026007888#top

BRDS

[BumRushDaShow]

113. Yeah I saw that

about to post something there!

[Laurian]

7. Pretty thin skinned bunch. Any profession should be

open to scrutiny and constructive criticism without resorting to such childish behavior. The recent actions of the police unions and their supporters are right in line with the attitude that their decisions to use deadly force should never be questioned.

[blkmusclmachine]

20. cops suck

[True Blue Door]

8. Such arrogance. De Blasio is the elected leader of New York City.

These people are salaried public servants nobody elected.

[1step]

10. Obama is the twice-elected POTUS

I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but what's your point?

[True Blue Door]

11. That elements of the NYPD are being publicly insubordinate

to the elected government of New York City - not as private citizens expressing dissent, but as officers using their position to undermine the civil government. They are out of order, out of line, and some of them should be out of a job.

[1step]

13. And that's why this could be dangerous

The federal analog would be that soldier who said he would not carry out Obama's orders because the president was "illegitimate."

Believe me, we're on the same side here, and any cops that did participate in this absolutely SHOULD be fired!

[branford]

23. That's not the federal analog at all.

The police are most certainly not equivalent to the armed forces who voluntarily relinquish certain constitutional rights while in active service. This fact has been discussed on numerous threads. Despite the paramilitary nature of policing, the police are still effectively civilians who are no different that any other basic public employee, city, state or federal, with all constitutional, statutory labor, and collective bargaining and contractual protections that such status entails. They also do not answer to Mayor deBlasio. They are employed by the City of New York, and take orders from Police Commissioner Bratton.

More importantly, police officers, individually and collectively, may certainly protest, "disrespect" and politically oppose the mayor, particularly while off-duty, anonymously and on matters concerning their safety, a subject of collective bargaining, just as any other city employee.

It is definitely appropriate to criticize the content of a much of the criticisms of the mayor, but thus far all police and related protests appear to be entirely legal and permissible. Both due to the obvious legal protections, not to mention the political and practical difficulties, no police officer will, can or should face discipline. Any attempt at discipline or retaliation would likely ultimately prove futile, result in civil damages paid by the taxpayers in favor of the police and their unions, make the police even more popular in NYC, and further politically damage the mayor.

I find it most disconcerting that on a liberal forum that strongly favors the rights of unions and public employees, when it comes to the police, many posters appear to be using little more than talking points from Scott Walker or the Heritage Foundation. Simply, if the discipline against these officers that so many seek were come to fruition, it would set a devastating legal and political precedent for all public employees.

In any event, both the mayor and police commissioner understand the legal and political realities, and neither has even hinted or implied that any action will be attempted against the involved officers. Rather, the mayor is earnestly trying to dramatically lower the rhetoric for his benefit and that of the city.

The plane and banner were undoubtedly stupid and highly inflammatory. However, it was not unlawful, insubordinate or the basis for discipline, no less termination.

[geek tragedy]

27. DeBlasio is the police commissioner's boss.

He is in charge of all NYC employees, including the police department.

The PBA's primary purpose has been to enable corruption, brutality, and other forms of illegal conduct amongst cops.

Their enemy is accountability.

[branford]

28. Then the mayor can fire the police commissioner,

although the mayor will still have to comply with the terms of the commissioner's contract. The mayor would still not have any arbitrary authority over individual officers, and any new commissioner would still be bound the the relevant constitutional and statutory labor imperatives and the express terms of the collective bargaining agreement. DeBlasio is not king of NYC, he is only the mayor More importantly, Commissioner Bratton is one of the few people that is respected among all sides, and his open lines of communication is probably what's preventing the situation from becoming much, much worse. Bratton's job is secure for the foreseeable future.

The police unions' (I believe there are around five in the NYPD) purpose is to solely advocate for and represent the interest of their police officer members. Whether you or I agree with them (and I've already noted that I don't), is entirely irrelevant.

The police unions are (legally) acting like any other union, particularly in a large city, involved in heated and extended contract negotiations and with an all to common dispute with the mayor. However, may here believe that some exception to free speech and related labor conduct exists when the union happens to be conservative or the police. There are no such exceptions, and to imply there might be acts to the detriment of all public employees and their unions.

[geek tragedy]

46. I can't think of another union that demands that

its members be allowed to kill, steal, and abuse members of the community with absolute impunity.

[branford]

47. Although I certainly do not agree with their positions,

conservatives make the same claims concerning any number of unions, most particularly teachers unions.

Every time a teachers unions, quite correctly, defend a blatantly incompetent teacher, no less one that has actually been convicted of heinous crimes involving pedophilia and rape, think about your statement.

Simply, unions defend and advocate for the interests of all their members, even the bad ones, and only their members. In fact, the duty of fair representation and the nature of unions demand that unions treat all their members equally.

As I've stated repeatedly, I believe the police unions' statements have ranged from stupid to highly inflammatory. However, I'm entirely unsurpised that they are using the current social climate to their political advantage (and economic due to contract negotiations), and no matter my disagreement with them, for a multitude of legal and political reasons, I acknowledge their right to such speech free of official government retaliation.

[adigal]

76. And as a public school teacher, if I turned my back on my superintendent

I would be fired. You do NOT do that. I would be gone. They'd figure out a way to get rid of me.

[branford]

82. All that would be is a reflection of incompetence by your union.

If it happened in a major urban area like NYC, with strong teachers unions who actively pursue grievances, you would almost certainly emerge unscathed. I would also note that since the officers' conduct was a collective action and concerning issues arguably the subject of collective bargaining (e.g., officer safety) their conduct may receive even greater protection under relevant labor statutes.

[adigal]

86. What's your deal here? Have you ever met a shooting by a cop you didn't like?

You just try to turn everything and twist it. Police approval is way down, as I noted in another post. You keep saying how loved the NYPD is, but they're not. You keep defending every action of the police. I wonder what you value? Not fairness and justice for the weak, that's for sure.

[branford]

90. You've obviously have not carefully read my posts in this or other threads.

As indicated in this thread, my primary issue is labor rights and protections. The calls to discipline the officers for the banner and back-turning are authoritarian, contrary to law and contract, hypocritical, and terrible for the labor movement, particularly public employees.

I also do not believe that effective strategies to combat racial disparities in the justice system should ignore current legal, political or social realities. Although many here do not agree, I rest comfortably knowing that the recent actions and statements by people like Mayor deBlasio and AG Holder demonstrate I'm not alone in realizing that tactics must reflect changing circumstances.

I also hardly defend every action by the police. However, I most certainly refuse to demonize all police, any more than I would generalize all minority youth, and will not engage in knee-jerk reactions to any event. For instance, after the recent shooting of Antonio Martin in Missouri, I did not immediate blame the police like many here. In fact, if recent reports prove true, and Martin drew a weapon on the officer, it would appear to be a justified shooting.

There are more than enough instances of actual police misconduct, but that does not mean in every negative interactions between police and young black men, that the police are at fault. Additionally, when discussing certain matters like the Ferguson grand jury, many people unequivocally misunderstood the relevant law and procedure. Except to the most blind partisans and ideologues, correcting these errors is certainly not support for the police.

[daleanime]

108. Gee, to you think the Police Union's power.....

is accidental? Compare with the remains of other American Unions.

[Odin2005]

117. Cops are the protectors and enforcers of the Capitalist Class...

...therefore police unions are objectively pro-Capitalist and anti-worker.

[whathehell]

115. Those are not the union's demands.

A little less hyperbole might help here.

[geek tragedy]

122. The union has a long, sordid history of defending corruption and

brutality. They've opposed every effort to establish even a modicum of accountability or reform.

They threw a hissy fit when the 77th was cleaned up, and when the CCRB was established.

It's an org that wants cops to be out of control thugs.

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. I'm all in favor of the police being able to say what they think here.

"Don't hold back; Say what you really think" should always be the policy. Get it out in the open.

It's notable that they paid for this demonstration / ad (because counter-demonstration would be inappropriate and/or communist?)
BEFORE the shitty protest on Christmas Eve by people yelling "jail killer cops" in defiance of DeBlasio's request for a pause in the
debate prior to the officers' funeral, which both sides are clearly not honoring.

[branford]

48. In light of the proclaimed "ceasefire" between the unions and mayor,

I would not be surprised if many on all sides of the divide were annoyed by the banner, including some from the police unions, and most particularly Commissioner Bratton. However, after the 5th Avenue protests, the mayor's office really cannot complain, and in any event, would not do so today, with Officer Ramos' wake.

[billhicks76]

54. Blah Blah Blah

Last edited Fri Dec 26, 2014, 08:14 PM - Edit history (1)

The police are not on the side of the people. They act like an occupying force. And they show how immature and rotten they are when they act like this. De Blasio should have fired the leadership a while ago. Where would they be without their precious drug war waged on common people for their wages? They have no incentive to investigate burglaries or murders because they have simply become a for-profit institution.

[branford]

58. The police first worry about the police. That's unsurprising.

The banner was also planned and funded by an unknown number of current and retired officers, not all police officers or even by any of the unions. Blaming all officers for the banner is no different than blaming all protesters when a few engage in the "death to cops" rhetoric.

I also don't know how firing the police leadership, at least those at the political level without protection, would have changed anything at all. It would not diminish any of the constitutional, statutory or contractual protections of the rank-and-file, affect the NYPD unions, or permit deBalsio or the new chiefs to prohibit "disrespect" of the mayor, a clearly unlawful order. I would argue that Commissioner Bratton, however, has demonstrated great professionalism and acted as a bridge between the police and mayor, and prevented the current situation from spiraling further out of control.

The drug was also the result of the policies of our elected national and local leadership, including majorities of both Democrats and Republicans, with a great deal of public support. Even now, with perceptions changing about marijuana, there's hardly a majority willing to go much further. The people you should be complaining about and to are not the police, but rather individuals like President Obama, AG Holder, Governor Cuomo and Mayor deBlasio.

[billhicks76]

65. They Say They Don't Make The Laws

But it's bullshit once again as they are always looking for an excuse in your car and always lie that they smell marijuana if they think any drugs or money fit the profile. AND their unions ALWAYS lobby to stop drug law reform and put money into keeping or creating drug laws that oppress average people. It's just more misdirection, obfuscation, hoodwinking, bamboozlement and obstruction.

[branford]

67. Your broad generalizations about hundreds of thousands of police officers nationwide

is slightly disturbing.

In any event, I'm unsure of you ultimate point. Are you simply venting about American policing and the drug war, or actually arguing that police and their unions should have their First Amendment and related constitutional protections, as well as their broad and hard fought for labor rights, abrogated because you do not like their political positions?

[billhicks76]

109. I Used To Like Police

And luckily I still do where I live. Decent guys. But all you racists worms need to get your house in order. You wish you were as cool as cops in OR.

[Odin2005]

118. All police are BY DEFINITION the enforcing arm of the ruling class.

That means all cops are enemies of the vast majority of the population, no matter how good of a person an individual cop may be.

[THECHOSEN1]

111. Scott Walker was elected three times

Your point?

[busterbrown]

9. Idiots and I blame Union Officials who have led

their Rank and File down the right wing rd for years.. Thing is, they better fucking understand who their real enemies are.. Right Wing Doctrine which is looking to eliminate Unions and convert Union Police Depts across the country into Private Corporation Depts.. Rid the city of cops who have nice union benefits and turn the forces into $12.00 rent a cop companies..Who wins... Wall Street!

[adigal]

78. At this point, when the right wingers start to go after their pensions

I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[branford]

85. If police pensions were no longer sacrosanct,

what do you believe would happen to the other remaining much weaker and less popular public employees.

If the Republicans could trade the police and fire unions for all public employees, they would do so immediately and without the slightest hesitation or regret.

[adigal]

87. The police are NOT popular...repeating it doesn't work here

This isn't Fox News.

[christx30]

91. Fortunately in this country,

you don't need to be in the majority or popular to still have First amendment rights.

[First Speaker]

12. This is beginning to sound like a banana republic situation...open contempt for civilian authority..

...De Blasio is the democratically-elected mayor of NYC. The cops answer to *him*. He does not answer to them. They should get the names of every cop who turned their backs, and fire them all. Now. This day.

[SwankyXomb]

37. The word "coup" has been floating through my mind lately.

I wouldn't put it past the weasels running the NYPD unions to try and force De Blasio out.

[arcane1]

14. You can imagine how they react if a mere civilian nobody is disrespectful to them.

These crybabies are basically admitting they are not competent to do their jobs.

[JDPriestly]

15. Free speech should be protected.

But insubordinate officers should be fired.

What if communities that face a lot of discrimination and use of excessive force by police begin a community action to mediate disputes (like that between Garner and the shops complaining about his unauthorized sale of cigarettes), discourage petty crimes, educate people on how to deal with law enforcement authorities and other public safety and welfare issues. I could see churches sponsoring programs of that sort, going into the schools and neighborhoods..

Prevention is the best cure.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. These idiots really believe they are irreplaceable.

[Blue_In_AK]

17. Insurrection.

This is bad.

[Plucketeer]

19. Awwww

they gots the NYPD blues. Severance pay should be next.

[Lifelong Protester]

21. This is bad.

I'm all for free speech, but this is insubordination.

[BeyondGeography]

22. Cardillo, ex-NYPD now living in Florida

Put in his 20 years and gets his pension paid by New Yorkers to help his buddies complain about how bad they have it. Miserable whiners all around.

[branford]

24. Do you feel the same way about all politically active retired public employees?

There is no First Amendment exception for complaints or activism by police officers, no less retired officers.

Moreover, are you alleging that Cardillo did actually not fulfill his obligations as an NYPD officer and earn his pension? If not, how is it at all relevant to his activism, no less his decision to retire to Florida?

[BeyondGeography]

26. No, lawyer man, I feel that way about all people who are fundamentally incapable of gratitude

for their good fortune in life.

[branford]

30. I'll then save your post for next time we discuss issues concerning active and retired teachers,

postal employees and the vast majority of other far more liberal public employee who routinely complain about a vast myriad of issues, including work conditions and terms of employment for their still employed brethren, and are often heavily involved in the political process.

Retired public employees have just as much right to free speech and to be involved in the political process as anyone else, and their opinions, liberal or conservative, are no less valid because they receive a public pension.

[BeyondGeography]

35. Oh get off it already

I'm talking about cops who HATE the city with all their hearts and spend their entire lives bitching about it while they love, love, love the pay and the benefits that make their lifestyles possible. Maybe it's that giant lie at the center of their existence that makes them so unhappy, I don't know. They can exercise their gums as much as they want and I can call them out on their hypocrisy. If they keep it up (DeBlasio got 71% of the vote running in part against their tactics after all), maybe they'll lose enough leverage one day to actually be compelled to live in the city they serve.

[branford]

38. Read about the mayor's current polling and trends as he approaches just one year in office.

More importantly, listen to his current statements. For heaven's sake, he went from campaigning on police reform, meeting with the protesters and personal anecdotes about his son, to asking protesters to stay home and strongly criticizing them. Listening to the mayor over the last couple of days, despite the unions' rhetoric, one would think that the NYPD just cured cancer and ended world hunger, and that Commissioner Bratton (Giuliani's former police commissioner) actually walks on water. It's enough to give anyone political whiplash.

Do you think that maybe Mayor deBlasio has a better sense of how the NYPD is viewed by a majority of city residents and their political impact that you?

As to your absurd and hyperbolic claims that the officers of the NYPD, one of the most diverse police forces in the world with over 34,000 active officers, "hate the city with all their hearts," all I can say is that you really need to meet far more NYPD's officers and the majority of residents who have an amicable and professional relationship with them, day in, and day out.

I, too, believe the recent police union rhetoric inflammatory and unhelpful, but I will not ignore reality because it may not suit my political preferences, nor adopt short-sighted positions that could hurt the entire labor movement.

[BeyondGeography]

41. Did I say all cops?

No. I am talking about the loudmouths. Fools who overplayed their hand today, which even you acknowledge.

DeBlasio is trying to keep the city together, his most vociferous opponents on the force, not so much.

[adigal]

42. I've said this before and will again now...my son and all his Ivy league educated friends

who live in Brooklyn and NYC all distrust and really strongly dislike the cops. They say they are assholes to everyone. And if the cops are assholes to these white mostly rich kids, just imagine how they treat black and Hispanic kids. To say that most NYers have a good relationship with the police is really laughable. I had two traffic stops and was treated like a hardened criminal each time.

[branford]

49. Anecdotes are not data or proof.

You can read the polling and watch the news just like everyone else. The current statements and actions by not only deBlasio, but also AG Holder, Governor Cuomo, the speaker of the NYC council, and inumerable liberal Democrats across the nation, speak for themselves.

Just like any other large organization, no less a group of highly-protected public employees who routinely interact with the public, often in tense and dangerous situations, the individuals in the group range from saints to criminals, with the vast, vast majority just wanting to competently and professionally do their jobs and safely go home to their families. The 34,000+ diverse officers of the NYPD (or the hundreds of thousands of police across the country) should no more be stereotyped and generalized than "minority youth" or anyone else.

In any event, just like every other citizen, police are free to engage in the political process, even when it's a significant political liability for a recently elected liberal mayor or when it conflicts with our priorities and values. To permit otherwise would inevitably hurt all of us, particularly our allies who form the majority of public employees and their unions.

[adigal]

74. I agree...so where's your data showing the great love for the NYPD?

I'd be very surprised to.see more than 25 to 30% of people in NYC trusting the police.

[branford]

79. Even post Ferguson and Garner, support is over 50%,

without accounting for any bump after the aftermath of the murders of Officers Ramos and Liu and political retrenchment from politicians like Mayor deBlaiso and AG Holder. I'm very anxious to see polls in early 2015. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers begin to reach the 70+% approval from a few years ago. These are the type of approval numbers politicians dream of.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/12/23/how-new-yorkers-feel-about-the-nypd/

However, I would be interested in seeing any reputable polling with overall NYPD approval in the range of 25-30%.

[adigal]

84. Support went WAY down, especially among minorities

Since you misrepresented it, I'll put it here

Jan 2013 -
70% total approval
Whites 80%
Blacks 56%
Hispanics 67%

November 2014
54% total approval
35% black approval
43% Hispanic approval

Yes, the much loved NYPD. Figment of conservatives' imaginations.

[branford]

88. Is support more polarized, yes. Will such polarization continue, most likely.

Are the NYPD still incredibly popular, particularly with demographics who historically vote in large numbers, absolutely.

That is not a statement of support or opposition to the NYPD, it is simply fact that should counsel any protest strategy.

Again, you claimed a 25-30% overall approval. Do you have any reliable data?

[THECHOSEN1]

112. De Blasio approval rating is 47%

That is not too good, he is losing the city after less than a year. He may have popular views but he can't lead.

[BeyondGeography]

121. That's pretty good given the pounding he's been getting from the PBA and their tabloid lackeys

Those numbers will go up, imo, as DeBlasio gets his own message of unity out and as his most vocal opponents overreach, as they did yesterday. New Yorkers are not unforgiving yahoos at heart; most will keep an open mind.

I see you've come to your own conclusions, though. You must have a lot of interesting views.

[geek tragedy]

25. People of color and liberals in NYC will turn our backs on these fuckers

when their collective bargaining agreement expires. They're overpaid anyways.

[pocoloco]

31. Maybe all the gun grabbers have been.........

....really grabbing guns??

[Kalidurga]

32. Well that would significantly reduce your chances of being shot

[freshwest]

100. That is one heck of a transparency page there.

[Kalidurga]

101. Thanks for the heads up on that one

I rarely look at other posters transparency pages. But, when I do it is enlightening to say the least.

[freshwest]

107. I only look if I see a nasty post to see if it's an aberration. Not sure what's up there...

[branford]

33. Do you realize that that the PBA is currently involved in contract negotiations

with the city that will soon enter binding arbitration, and that within the last couple of weeks, the city managed to reach fairly long-term tentative deals with many of the city's uniformed workers, include some related to the NYPD and supportive law enforcement like corrections officers?

http://thechiefleader.com/arbitration-looms-again-in-pba-wage-dispute/article_9cfa6776-127e-11e4-af63-001a4bcf6878.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/uniformed-workers-11-raises-7-years-article-1.2040155

The State and City of New York has very strong labor protections, and there is no exception for the police. In fact, since the police, particularly the NYPD, are so popular and supported, including with majority liberals, they tend to negotiate some of the best contracts. I only wish other city unions were as popular and successful.

You really do not appear to have an understanding of unions and contract negotiations in NYC.

In any event, both liberals and people of color in NYC, just like virtually everyone else, generally clamor, often quite loudly, for more police in their neighborhoods, which is another reason for the success of the police unions. Many of these same people certainly want to see police reforms to eliminate racial disparities in the justice system, but they nevertheless want motivated (i.e., well paid and trained) officers protecting them and their families.

[adigal]

43. I haven't heard the residents of the Pink Houses asking for more cops recently. nt

[branford]

51. First, the Pink Houses do not necessarily represent the over 8+ million residents of NYC.

More importantly, the extremely dangerous conditions the residents face, such as poor lighting and inoperable security cameras and elevators, are largely the result of the New York City Housing Authority, not the police. Nevertheless, I never hear anyone complain about Mayor deBalsio, the NYCHA, and their very liberal and Democrat-supporting union and workforce.

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/tenants-live-in-fear-at-the-notorious-pink-houses/

The Pink Houses are exactly the type of environment that could use both improved infrastructure and a whole lot more police.

[adigal]

75. My husband was NYPD, in the housing department

And he said he did verticals all of the time. Not once did he ever have his gun out. He reviewed the story of the cop there, and said it was BS. You don't open a door with your gun in your hand. You don't ever walk up the stairs with your gun out. He said if the cop was that scared, he should never have been a cop.

[geek tragedy]

45. The PBA does not share the goal of reducing abuses

and racial disparity. They want cops to be above the law.

[branford]

52. The PBA's goal is to protect their officer members, no more, no less.

How is that shocking or unexpected?

[adigal]

80. Because when a teacher has an affair with a kid, the school gets them the hell out

So that they can never do that again. They may not prosecute them, but they are removed. The union generally negotiates the removal, advising the teacher to resign, rather than be fired. I've seen this twice in my own schools in 20 years.

The police unions just protect the police. They don't give a shit about the safety of us out here.

[geek tragedy]

94. Who said it was surprising?

They are what they are, and what they are is generally opposed to the public good.

[BronxBoy]

53. Except....

They seem to be getting more well paid and less well trained. Do you think millions of oeople across the country have taken to the streets just because they woke up one day and decided they didn't like cops?

And who are you to speak for people if color?

[branford]

60. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

I am, however, noting widely available polls and citing clear and unequivocal statements by our elected leadership, including a great many very liberal Democrats, including the mayor himself. For instance, I most certainly did not call for a pause in demonstrations or criticize peaceful demonstrators, that was Mayor deBlasio. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but certain realities are unmistakable, even when unsavory.

I've never stated that the unions do not deserve criticism. In fact, I repeatedly stated that many of the union remarks were foolish, counterproductive and inflammatory. My issue is with people who believe and demand that police opposition to the mayor is somehow a sanctionable, no less should result in the termination of a unionized public employee. That is not only contrary to law, but would set a dangerous precedent that would immeasurably hurt and diminish public unions overall.

Lastly, I find your complaint that police are "getting more well paid and less well trained" to be slightly amusing. First, because I actually agree with the sentiment. You do not need to convince me otherwise. Ironically, it's also the exact same complaint voiced daily from conservatives about all unions, with the teachers being the most infamous example.

[BronxBoy]

62. You mentioned people of color....

something you seemed to conveniently leave out in your reply to me, a person of color....

What gives you the right to speak for us? What in your experience leads you to believe that people of color agree with what you said? I'm Black and many folks in my community would say you're full of shit.....

So I ask you again, what gives you the right to speak for us?

[branford]

66. If you are referring to people from all races and classes demanding more police protection,

I firmly stand by my statement. I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone, nor claiming every last person shares the sentiment.

You simply need to routinely read the local news surrounding the issues concerning every renegotiation of the various police contracts, follow local NYC politics, or read and listen to statements by innumerable locals, including a very great many people of color, in the all too common aftermath of crime in their neighborhoods. The desire and demand for a greater local police presence by virtually everyone, particularly in large urban areas, is probably one of the least controversial items in the thread, even if you personally may disagree.

In any event, do you now claim to speak for all African-Americans in NYC? I would find the irony delicious.

[BronxBoy]

68. I claim to speak from a perspective

Of being Black in this country...something you will never ever understand....you need to get a sense of how we feel from reading newspapers....and your posts show it.

I don't. I live it every day. You know what's interesting about your posts? It's when confronted on this site by a person if color, you can never seem to engage us about what our experiences have been and why we feel the way we do. It always some saniseptic bullshit about the law and what you read... And gol darn it you mean what you said and you said what you meant and an inflexible person misses the point 100 percent

Apologies to Horton

[branford]

72. Now I'm a little confused.

I've never stated nor implied you weren't entitled to your own viewpoints or diminished your own experiences. However, you seem to disregard perspectives other than your own. I'm a lifelong resident of and work in NYC. Are my experiences and opinions less valid or important because I'm not African-American whether it concerns the police, unions or anything else? Are you implying I don't care about or understand racial disparities in the criminal justice system because of the color of my skin, because a significant part of my own political activism and legal career has involved this very issue. Just as I don't know you, you really don't know me.

Additionally, are you disregarding or doubting the numerous reported statements by other people of color concerning demands for greater community policing? Are the various polls and comments from Democratic elected officials, including people of color like AG Holder and the president, products of our imagination?

And most importantly, with respect to the OP and the beginning of our discussion, do you believe that the police and union statements in opposition to the mayor actually warrant discipline in light of the Constitution, various labor laws and the unions' collective bargaining agreements?

[BronxBoy]

77. Yes you are

Do you know how to engage folks on an emotional level? Do you even know what it's like to have a conversation without throwing in your bullshit about the constitution and all that other bullshit you posit as a truly open minded discussion

You know what I never hear from people line you and the "esteemed" members of the police unions you so fervently support?

"We obviously have a problem we need to deal with. How can we be a part of the solution?"

Nope....never hear it

[branford]

97. Bullshit about the Constitution? Engage with folks on an emotional level?

What does that even mean? It's the same Constitution than demands that minorities be treated the same as whites, and provides remedies to enforce equal protection, as permits and protects the speech of the officers who turned their backs on the mayor and guarantees due process before any discipline. I further expect public policy to be grounded in actual facts, not feelings.

The police union is only concerned with their member officers, as it should be. It's the same way the teachers union is only concerned with their member teachers, the union for sanitation workers only cares about member sanitation workers, etc. That is the essential nature of unions, and these fiduciary obligations are properly enforced by federal and state law. If they seem to act otherwise, it's only because they believe it's inures to their ultimate benefit.

I'm honestly uncertain if you simply make no distinction between the obligations and expectations of the NYPD itself versus its constituent unions, believe police are not entitled to fundamental constitutional or labor protections, are annoyed that more people do not share your perspective on community policing policies, or are just venting about recent injustices.

[Cha]

104. "We obviously have a problem we need to deal with. How can we be a part of the solution?"

Exactly, BronxBoy.. Thank you! Instead they have a banner on an airplans showing off what obtuse bullies they are.

[Reter]

59. $15 an hour to start off while risking your life is overpaid?

It's pathetic pay.

[branford]

61. In fairness, a great deal of police pay is expected overtime, benefits are excellent,

and like other public employees, wages significantly increase with seniority and promotion.

Ironically, the police are earning a fortune dealing with the anti-police protests, and it puts the PBA in a better position in their upcoming contract arbitration.

[geek tragedy]

127. They all earn $100k after a decent amount of years. nt

[branford]

132. So do teachers, school custodians, and a plethora of other NYC public employees.

It's mostly because NYS and NYC have strong public employee unions. That is a good thing.

Do you believe this entire class of municipal public employees should all be earning less, or only the police?

[geek tragedy]

137. Hey, if they want to waive the right to break the law

with impunity, we can certainly talk.

[heaven05]

34. well him standing up for humanity and compassion trumps the 'fascist', "our way or nothing",

mentality. Yep, the cops are being silly and that 'mouthpiece' for their union is just agitating. Leave the mayor and by rote his family alone. Angry for the benign reason that the mayor had that talk of real streets, where the father told his mix raced son about the streets how out out of control cops could be, for no other reason than the melanin in his skin.. When our policing system can't be 'protect and serve' and is just about urban warfare suppression, with serious suppression gear/technology available, when a mayor recognizes how out of balance and capricious upholding the law has become, they get pissed. How ludicrous. The mayor understands what's going on, the real danger, alerted his mixed raced son with huge afro, mine was that long in late sixties, well maybe half that size. His son HAD to be told and us too. That's what has pissed the nypd off. That our fears are confirmed. We now know how corrupt, mean and vicious the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association is at this time.

These show funerals coming up, great PR, all politics by the PBA. The PBA in NYC are not so benevolent against the average person of color, be that men, woman and children.... It has become very tedious wondering if some asshole hiding behind a badge, looks at you and just starts hating the face, race whatever. Doesn't happen you say? Garner, Crawford, Brown, Rice, most prominently, lately, proving that fact. It's much more on the streets. It seems if undercover cops of color can't trust their brethren white cops then it seems they are that out of control. Are black cops killing black people or white people in numbers the whites are racking up. This begs an answer. This society is breaking up into factions, it's fitting that it is starting with the the largest police force in this country, with 4 divisions of armed to the teeth uniforms using the badge in a face off with the city administrator with a show of power and intimidation. Then we'd have the guard go in and destroy the blueshirts. The green fatigues will win, eventually, especially if something like a violent insurrection ensues.

The factions mentioned above cover the complete political spectrum, liberals, progressives in the FDR, John Kennedy, Barack Obama Truman, "the buck stops here" defiance style democrats. The RW is full of racists shamelessly agitating, through their network of hate media, sowing dissension and mistrust among their adherents of the 'others'. Hate against the 'others'. It seems the black man woman and child, unarmed, has become fair game for individuals and gangs of thug police with the power of their gun and badge to harass, intimidate and kill, unarmed citizens of color and walk away without censure of any type.... it is tedious as mentioned above to have to wonder if the 'officer(s) are 'normal' or just haters of race, face, race, just look at you and start hating. The police are out of control, NOT the Mayor.

He knows it, the union knows that he knows, and the trust in the toilet. Who's way...draconian robocops on the streets, hardline fascist, observing a curfew with the death penalty for wrong or no papers, wrong place? The leading ELECTED authority, the Mayor, the political, is against happening in NYC, is seems. Fair is fair. New Yorkers voted him in, deal with it NYPD....modern Orwell IS here or coming very soon to a town or a burg near you.

[Raine1967]

36. I saw this today from the ferry in NYC Around 930

and I found it highly disturbing. I saw it twice flying around the city.

[Cha]

105. I would be so disheartened and then pissed, Raine. :( Like I am now.. only not in person.

[Leopolds Ghost]

39. Fuck the police. Although that protest before the cops' burial was fucked up. But they paid for ad.

[font face="arial black" size="3"]OINK OINK OINK OINK OINK[/font]

[The Wizard]

44. The sign's syntax

indicates Teabagger input. Cops are predominantly Republican while the Mayor is a Democrat. Not all Republicans are bigots, but all bigots are Republican. They're still pissed off that the man with the ultimate power in the world is only half white. It's really not very complicated.

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. Is it true the NY Legislature just passed bill taking police misconduct cases out of mayors hands

And back into the hands of the police union?

Overheard on CNN the other day.

[branford]

55. The mayor doesn't handle potential cases of criminal police misconduct,

that is the purview of the five elected district attorneys representing each of the five boroughs/counties of NYC and, under certain circumstances, the NY Attorney General and governor.

I've not heard about any new state laws. However, NY AG Schneiderman has asked Governor Cuomo for more authority and similarly requested the legislature to pass additional laws.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/nyregion/new-york-attorney-general-seeks-powers-to-investigate-killings-by-the-police.html

[True Blue Door]

56. I hope someone buys a plane banner saying something along the lines of

"NYPD: You Are Out of Line. The People are With Mayor & Protesters."

[branford]

63. That would certainly be lawful and permissible so long as paid for with private funds. nt

[Live and Learn]

73. I'd contribute to that (and without anonymity).

I really wish someone would set that up.

[Ramses]

57. disband that criminal organization

They are acting actually worse than the mob ever did. The NYPD have said they are now a wartime dept. Disband, fire, and prosecute every member that does not speak up against this criminal behavior.

[workinclasszero]

64. How dare these employees of NYC

spit in the face of the ELECTED mayor of NYC and their boss!

If showed the same level of disrespect to my boss, I'd be out of a job in a heartbeat!

Who do these assholes think they are?

Answer: Fascists, the servants and protectors of the damn republican 1%ers!

When the hell is NYC gonna get a police force for the people?

[branford]

70. Huh?

So, it's your contention that unionized public employees cannot "disrespect" an elected official, and if they do so, it requires immediate termination?

With all due respect, you viewpoint is entirely inconsistent with the First Amendment, substantive and procedural due process, the NLRA and its state analogs, and collective bargaining.

Did you feel the same way about liberal NYC public employees like the teachers and sanitation workers when they fought viciously and bitterly with Mayor Giuliani?

[workinclasszero]

93. All I see are cops getting away with murder

If I stood up at a meeting with my boss, turned my back to him and publicly told him to go to hell, I would be out the door on my ass in two seconds.

But once again this just proves that cops are above the law, any law and not subject to it.

They are judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one and yeah they can tell their boss to eat s**t and die and get away with that too!

[Odin2005]

119. Your equating fucking PIGS with genuine civil servants is disgusting.

You are comparing THUGS whose job it is to protect the privileges of the ruling class with teachers and mail workers?

[christx30]

71. So you think people that are employed by the goverment

shouldn't have the right to speak out? You want to take away their First Amendment rights?
When I was in the fourth grade, all of the teachers banded together and had protests against a required assessment test for teachers. They talked about the protest in classrooms and even to the AISD Superintendent. Should they have been fired on the spot for daring to disrespect their boss?

I hate cops. I'm against them arresting people for posession, and I think cops that kill should go to jail, unless it's in self defense. But I support anyone metaphorically spitting in the face of a politican. Being elected to an office doesn't give them immunity to criticism. Grow a spine, answer your critics, or get out of office. You're not that impressive, and you're not that important in the long run.

[chervilant]

69. This ridiculous action

reminds me of a bunch of bullies in a sandbox, stomping their widdle feets because someone told them they have to play nice.

I am so very glad I am nowhere NEAR these cretins.

[merrily]

81. This is not about DeBlasio's culpability for murder. It's about RW propaganda vs. a Dem Mayor of NYC

It's been relentless.

His "mixed" marriage just might have something to do with it, too.

[inanna]

83. + a gazillion n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

89. That's good

Hard to shoot someone to death when your back is to them.

[Ash_F]

92. How can the NYPD police chief be replaced?

It is time for NY to clean up their police force. Those are good paying reliable jobs that many young people could benefit from. The people currently occupying those positions do not deserve them.

Police work is statistically very safe. Police have a lower murder rate than the general US population.

This nonsense about the dangers of police work needs to go.

[LiberalElite]

95. The mayor appoints the police chief so

the mayor can fire the police chief.

To be hired as an NYC police officer, you're not just answering an ad in the employment section of the newspaper. You have to take a civil service exam. Then your name is placed on a list in order of the test results. Civil service lists are generally maintained for a couple of years. You're not considered for possible appointment (a/k/a/ hiring) till they get to your number on the list and you also have to be trained in the Police Academy. There has been discussion on other threads about how police departments don't want their officers to be too smart - NYPD requires recruits to have some college credits.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloads/pdf/noes/201505300000.pdf


http://www.nypdrecruit.com/academy-prep/hiring-process


Yes the NYPD has serious problems. Yes, the police union's rep, Lynch is an insubordinate racist right wing thug. However, as of 2013 there were over 34,000 police officers in NYC. I do not believe they all have to be replaced.

[Ash_F]

99. Some of them need to be replaced

They are out in the open too. Shouldn't be too hard.

[former9thward]

123. I think you underestimate the power of police unions.

[Ash_F]

124. Good point

I guess we know where the kkk went.

[branford]

131. The NYPD is basically the KKK????

You do realize that the officers killed were named Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu, and the 34,000 officer NYPD is one of the most diverse police forces in the world. In fact, only about half the force is white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department

[Ash_F]

133. Yes. Probably about half of the force needs to go NOW.

Watch this video all the way through and get back to me.

[branford]

134. Are you actually advocating that all white police officers, numbering in the thousands,

need to be summarily terminated from the NYPD solely on the basis that they're caucasian? Please tell me I'm wrong.

If so, the suggestion is ludicrous as a practical matter, political suicide for any major politician to even suggest, and an unequivocal breach of all NYPD collective bargaining agreements. More importantly, it would also be in clear violation of the Constitution and numerous federal, state and city labor and civil rights laws. The slightest attempt to institute such a policy would by killed in its infancy by the courts, and result in huge civil damage awards all the involved officers, all paid for by the taxpayers.

If I understand you suggestion correctly, and again I hope I'm wrong, it is one of the most authoritarian, anti-union, anti-public employee, anti-due process, and downright racist suggestion I've ever seen to combat racial disparities in the justice system, no less on a liberal Democratic forum.

If your issue is with stop-and-frisk, your complaints should be primarily directed to the politicians who dictate the policy, and the general public who supports its results, despite its insidious racial character.

No one should ever be terminated from their employment, no less public employment and without due process, because of the color of their skin.

[Ash_F]

136. Did you watch the video or not? /nt

[branford]

138. Yes, did you read my post? nt

[Ash_F]

139. Yes, and the NYPD is racist through to the bone

It needs to be cleaned out.

[branford]

141. So, you do advocate that all white police officers in the NYPD should be summarily terminated

solely because they are white. That would unquestionably be unconstitutional, illegal, immoral, politically unpalatable, and without a shadow of doubt, racist.

You are certainly free to espouse such solutions, but thankfully our elected leaders, the courts and the vast majority of the public will not countenance such bigotry.

There are many ways to address racial disparities in the justice system, but firing people because of the color of their skin is not definitely not one of them.

[Ash_F]

143. Here is one way to figure out who to fire

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026012885

[Calista241]

96. The mayor appointed the current chief and can appoint a replacement if he chooses.

The Chief has been supportive of the mayor and isn't the problem. The problem is the union leaders and some of the rank and file who are the ones stirring up all the trouble.

Give the unions a contract they're happy with, and many of these problems go away. The PO's are currently working w/o a contract though i read upthread some progress has been made recently.

We'll still have the "mayor threw us under the bus" types, but those types of people will always exist no matter how well things turn out.

[branford]

98. See my post #33 about the state of negotiations.

The PBA and City will soon enter binding arbitration. Until there's a decision, each side will seek political advantage.

As a practical matter, the Garner tragedy and police murders really couldn't have happened at a worse time in the context of NYC labor politics.

Nevertheless, I agree that once a contract is finalized, much, although not all, of the heated rhetoric will diminish, particularly because the mayor has gone out of his way to take a more conciliatory tone after the shootings (and assuming no more officers are killed).

The cynic is me also believes that the police rank-and-file may not be as angry about the protests as they let on. The protests, at least those without people calling for the deaths of police officers, are a very rich source of overtime. The college tuition of many children of police officers will be paid by those seeking reforms in the department. The irony is not lost on the police or the mayor's office.

[Ryan Fitzomething]

103. Those of Us With Guns Must ALWAYS Be Subordinate To the Civilian Authority

Be it the Coast Guard, Marines, National Guardsmen, or local police: Defiance of duly-elected mayors, governors, or presidents, constitutes, at least to my mind, a very serious challenge to this country's very nature.

If members of the NYPD have, in fact, mounted such a challenge against Mr. de Blasio, they must be relieved of duty, preferably without pension, immediately!

[branford]

106. The police are not the military, and political opposition is not mutiny or insubordination.

The mayor is not the commander-in-chief. In fact, the police work for the city and take orders from the police commissioner, not the mayor. Even in the military, a soldier is entitled to certain due process and the protections of the UCMJ, and the president cannot arbitrarily discharge any service member, no less dishonorably with loss of pension and benefits.

Police officers are public employees like any other, and entitled to the same constitutional and labor law protections. Their relationship to the city and the nature, type and extent of available discipline are also governed contractually by a union collective bargaining agreement.

The police and their unions (and, quite frankly, all other city employees) fight regularly and viciously with the mayors of every administration, particularly when contracts are renegotiated as they are now, although some (political) battles are far worse than others. Our democracy and republic have endured, and to date, no mayors have been forceably deposed. Until such time as the police collectively remove the mayor by force of arms without judicial sanction, the military analogies are simply ludicrous.

[Ash_F]

130. "The police are not the military"

pffffft ... tell them that.

[sendero]

114. I'm sure you all know..

.. this is all about an ongoing contract dispute with the police union over, guess what, money.

[Odin2005]

116. De Blasio needs to watch his back for assassins.

I would not put anything behind the pigs.

[Sunlei]

120. people who paid for the message "want to remain anonymous." Cowards!!

Whoever paid for the banner plane (its about $800 or so) are cowards!!

[liberalmuse]

128. "Public Servants" my ass.

More like racist, jackbooted thugs and brownshirts who think they can kill at will (because they can, truthfully). As if cops like this haven't already earned enough contempt. Good cops were shot down in cold blood, and the bad ones are out in full force, pissing on their graves.

[roamer65]

129. Sounds a bit like Mayor Moscone in SF in the late 1970's.

Hopefully the mayor has good and loyal security.

[madokie]

135. Their biggest problem is

He is married to a black woman and you can bet your bippy on that too

I'm sick of racist mo'fos

[joshcryer]

140. They are trying to bring back the mob.

[truthisfreedom]

142. Waaaaahhhhmbulance!!1!!!1!

Babies.