NATO has failed Libya’s stricken civilians

[JohnyCanuck]

The current events in Libya, including reports of ethnic cleansing, the use of torture by the current government, and most recently the decision by the NGO Doctors Without Borders to suspend operations in the nation, stand as a stark condemnation of the NATO-led effort to expel former leader Muammar el-Gaddafi. This is especially true given that the justification for the effort was the protection of civilian lives, a duty that seems to have been forgotten today, even by those who were most vocal during the conflict.

While some may argue that there are always winners and losers in any civil conflict, the decision to intervene and, in direct defiance of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, to become active participants on the side of the rebels, was supposedly motivated by the need to enforce the UN resolutions mandating the protection of Libyan civilians. By defining the overriding goal of the mission as protection, rather than a simple military objective, NATO's goals became far more than a simple military victory.

However, it is also plain that NATO's responsibility to protect (R2P) Libyan civilians did not end after the fall of Gaddafi. By setting up the conditions for his fall, since it was NATO airpower that ultimately defeated Gaddafi, not the rebels, NATO and the nations advocating intervention bore full responsibility for the consequences. Most importantly, they bore responsibility for the safety and well-being of all civilians, not just those on the side of the rebels.

snip

More importantly, we have seen in Afghanistan, Somalia, and even in post-war Iraq the bitter consequences that can rise from the creation of a power vacuum. By making R2P the justification for overthrowing a government, but failing to engage in the far more difficult and long-term process of helping give rise to a legitimate replacement, NATO has largely discredited the doctrine it sought to justify.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99/ID/694788/NATO-has-failed-Libyas-stricken-civilians.aspx

[MrTriumph]

1. Ridiculous commentary. The LIBYANS bear responsibility for what now happens in their own country.

More anti-West clap trap. Lookie here, like many I opposed intervention in Libya. But to blame current calamities on NATO ("NATO and the nations advocating intervention bore full responsibility for the consequences&quot is ridiculous.

[Igel]

3. Yes, it is, at the very least, substantially claptrap.

Not entirely, perhaps. The Libyans do bear substantial responsibility for what they're doing, but there's this nifty legal doctrine for the last few decades that manages to apportion 100% of the responsibility for bad things several times over.

We've also heard the opposite quite a bit--the "we broke it, we own it" logic that applies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or Kosovo, for that matter. (D) had fun poking fun at *'s "we're not going to engage in state-building" rhetoric as being wrong-headed--and then had fun poking at his attempts at actual state-building.

However, R2P does have ramifications. If we can enter into a hot war without Constitutional provisions being triggered just because a government is nasty to its people, all the problems that Obama's R2P rhetoric come to the fore. When do we engage in R2P "protection" and when do we not? Do we do it just when we fail to hope in change and don't like the guy in charge? Or when there's some absolute number of tortured people--or some percentage? Right now it as a feel of "I know it when I see it", and that's bad because it reduces the Constitution to what a single man thinks is right.

Yeah, claptrap, but not without a few snarly issues caught in the trap.

[EFerrari]

5. The assessment that the NTC is barely in charge and cannot provide security for the populace

was confirmed by the last report of the UN last week. So no, this isn't ridiculous in any way.


UN envoy: Libya unstable but moving to democracy

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The top U.N. envoy in Libya said Thursday there are positive signs that the country is moving toward democracy but longstanding tensions have escalated into armed conflicts, detainees are still being tortured, and there is rising discontent among former revolutionary fighters.

Less than seven months after the end of Moammar Gadhafi's 42-year dictatorship, Libyans are increasingly exercising their freedom of speech and have a strong desire to be consulted on national issues and a determination to hold their leaders accountable, Ian Martin told the U.N. Security Council.

But he said that as the country prepares for the election of a National Congress next month — the first election in 45 years — the interim government is still trying to impose rule of law, and there is "a sense of instability in an already fragile system."


http://news.yahoo.com/un-envoy-libya-unstable-moving-democracy-001616400.html;_ylt=A2KJNTtU07BPGg0ALP7QtDMD

[tabatha]

2. This is old news.

Doctors Without Borders suspended operations months ago.

Since then the NTC has taken over the prisoners from the militias. Thousands of militias have been enrolled in the military and police. The actions of a few should not be broad-brushed over the whole population, who are now busy registering for elections.

Otherwise, 400 necklace incidents should have forever marred the Mandela government - it did not. There were not 400 incidents of torture by the rogue Libyan militias.

All of the below happened before the first elections in South Africa - should the people who boycotted South Africa be blamed?

"In addition to the continuing "black-on-black" violence, there were a number of attacks on white civilians by the PAC's military wing, the Azanian People's Liberation Army (APLA). The PAC was hoping to strengthen their standing by attracting the support of the angry, impatient youth. In the St James Church massacre on 25 July 1993, members of the APLA opened fire in a church in Cape Town, killing 11 members of the congregation and wounding 58.

In 1993, de Klerk and Mandela were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize "for their work for the peaceful termination of the apartheid regime, and for laying the foundations for a new democratic South Africa".[142]

Violence persisted right up to the 1994 elections. Lucas Mangope, leader of the Bophuthatswana homeland, declared that it would not take part in the elections. It had been decided that, once the temporary constitution had come into effect, the homelands would be incorporated into South Africa, but Mangope did not want this to happen. There were strong protests against his decision, leading to a coup d'état in Bophuthatswana on 10 March which deposed Mangope, despite the intervention of white right-wingers hoping to maintain him in power. Three AWB militants were killed during this intervention, and harrowing images were shown on national television and in newspapers across the world.

Two days before the elections, a car bomb exploded in Johannesburg, killing nine.[143][144] The day before the elections, another one went off, injuring thirteen. Finally, though, at midnight on 26–27 April 1994, the old flag was lowered, and the old (now co-official) national anthem Die Stem ("The Call&quot was sung, followed by the raising of the new rainbow flag and singing of the other co-official anthem, Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika ("God Bless Africa&quot ."

Read the full debacle below, of which I have excerpted just a few incidents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

[EFerrari]

4. Thousands remain in secret Libya militia prisons: UN

AFP – Fri, May 11, 2012

About 4,000 accused supporters of former dictator Moamer Kadhafi are still being held in Libyan militia detention centers, often in secret and many are tortured, a UN envoy said Thursday.

Ian Martin, head of the UN mission to Libya, said good progress was being made toward the country's first democratic election, but militia prisons were one of a number of "serious obstacles" to establishing the rule of law.

"Cases of mistreatment and torture of detainees continue," Martin told the UN Security Council. The UN has raised "deep concern" over the deaths in April of three people at a prison in Misrata which comes under government authority.

There was "credible information" that the deaths were caused by torture and that at least seven other people had been tortured at the same prison, said the head of the UN Support Mission in Libya, or UNSMIL.

http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-remain-secret-libya-militia-prisons-un-222907004.html