German Report: How Turkey Arms and Sends Wahhabi Jihadists into Syria

[Jesus Malverde]

[yoloisalie]

1. K&R

Anyone paying attention knows that the conflict in Syria hasn't been a civil war in a really long time. Now it is an invasion.

[idwiyo]

2. K&R

[Arctic Dave]

3. K&R

[LarryNM]

4. Will European (German) Corporatists Be Aided by

U.S. Corporatists again, as in the Balkan Wars?

[rdharma]

5. I'm sure the US doesn't know their NATO partner in Turkey is involved in this!

[happyslug]

6. This makes no sense, Turkey's Government is more pro-Moslem Brotherhood then Wahhabi.

First, Turkey's present Government is NOT Wahhabi radicals

the Party in charge of Turkey today, while Islamist and more in the nature of the Moslem Brotherhood then al Queda and the Wahhabi radicals out of Saudi Arabia. In many ways they prefer some sort of PEACEFUL resolution of the dispute (People ignore the fact that the Moslem Brotherhood embraced Gandhi's policy of non-violence in 1948, a position the Moslem Brotherhood has NEVER varied from, it is the reason the current head of al Queda, bin Laden's right hand man, refused to join the Moslem Brotherhood and instead formed his own organization that advocated recruiting officers in the Egyptian Army and useing them to overthrow the Government of Egypt in the 1990s, in 1998 he merged his group into al Queda).

More on bin Laden's "Second in Command" and the present leader of al Queda:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri

Second, OIL

If you are smart (or at least half smart) you NEVER attack your source of fuel Hitler did this in 1941, when he failed to take Moscow in December, his own Generals saw the only question was who would reach Berlin first, the Western Armies or the Russian Army, for the German Army did not have the fuel to stop either one, let alone both. Thus the German High Command made no long terms plans after 1942, the results were all the same except as to who marched into Berlin first. This was due to the fact prior to June 1941, the German oil supply came from Russia. The German's failure to secure Russia and the Russian oil fields meant they had no ability to maneuver after 1942, when the stock pile of oil was used up).

Turkey today, gets its fuel from IRAN. Iran supports Syria and has the ability to cut off fuel to Turkey. Turkey is limited as to its options as to fuel. Russia would be its first option, but they also back Syria and will NOT provide the fuel. Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab run Persian Gulf oil producers are maxed out as to present fuel exports, so they would have to cut out SOMEONE to supply Turkey. Thus it is possible for Turkey to find replacement for Iranian oil, But who will lose out (China, Korea and Japan also receive Iranian oil, thus none of them will give up Iranian oil and will gladly buy what Iran refuses to ship to Turkey.

Worse, from a Turkish point of view, Greece is also dependent on Iranian oil and will gladly step up military operations that Turkey has to respond to for such maneuvers will force Turkey to use up what oil Turkey has in reserves. Greece may do so to Please Iran AND to divert attention of its people from its domestic problems. I do NOT see a Greek attack on Turkey, but sending ships and planes along the Turkish Coasts, along with massing troops to positions to sail to Cyprus (and maybe even the Turkish West Coast) will be enough for Turkey to respond and use up its oil.

Cyrus gets its oil from Greece and Italy as refined products (and those two countries get the oil from Iran that is then refined and shipped to Cyprus). Thus Cyprus can even call up its Reserves and put them into positions to attack that part of Cyprus occupied by Turkey. That would force Turkey to call up its troops and use up fuel to reinforce Turkish forces in Cyprus.

Notice, I do NOT expect any attack, Turkey has enough Military power to defeat any Greek attack at the present time, but Turkey will have to use up fuel, it can not replace and sooner or later have to deal with a severe internal oil shortage AND possible military threats.

Third, the area on both side of the Border is held by Kurds

The area of Syria closest to Turkey tend to be Kurdish, the Turks for the last 100 or so years have been trying to make everyone in Turkey, Turkish (This includes the Greeks who use to live in Turkey, many left in the 1920s, but another series of attack on the Greeks living in Turkey occurred in the 1950s, thus most Greeks of Turkish Citizenship left Turkey for Greece, those that remain tend to be in Istanbul, various other small enclaves throughout Turkey with some Moslem Greek Speakers in Thrace, i.e, European Turkey outside of Istanbul).

Armenians received similar discrimination (like the Greeks, technically the discrimination was based on religion, but the real reason was they had not embrace being "Turkish", instead maintained that they were Greeks and Armenians living in Turkey.

This same discrimination was aimed at the Kurds, most of whom were Moslem like the Turks. The problem was NOT their religion, but that they did NOT embrace the concept they were "Turks" as opposes to Turkish Citizens of Kurdish descent. This is old fashioned Nationalism not Religion (Through being a Turk included being a Moslem, but not a radical Moslem, much like 19th Century Nationalism meant being "Russian " also meant you were "Orthodox", being Irish or Polish meant you were "Catholic" (and in Northern Ireland, the non-Catholic Irish tended to call themselves "Loyalists" and their opponents "Catholics" even when some Protestants supported the concept of Northern Ireland joining the rest of Ireland, while some Catholics supported keeping Northern Ireland in the UK).

In the USA and Western Europe, given that Protestantism and Catholicism existed in different parts of different countries, religion was NOT that great a factor in determining your nationality. Thus we do not think of religion when it comes to the Nationality of being French, German, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Indian or a Citizen of most Latin American Republics. The problem is Nationality and Religion are much more tied in together in the Middle East and Eastern Europe).

Remember Kurds make up 9% of the population of Syria, mostly along the border with Turkey, but NOT along the Mediterranean Coast (Where Assad is Strongest) but along the area held by the Rebels.

Turkey has enough problems with its own Kurds and do not want Kurds in Syria (or Iraq for the same reason) to have to much power, do to fears that the Kurds will turn whatever weapons they end up with against the Turks occupying Turkish Kurdistan.

For the above three reason, I do NOT see what are the advantages to TURKEY to support the opposition to Assad. Such support, would tend to increase the power of Kurds, threaten Turkish oil imports AND strengthen Moslem radicals (al Queda in particular) , that even the Islamists in Turkey oppose.

The 1955 Istanbul Riots against Greeks living in Istabul:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_and_discrimination_in_Turkey

[rdharma]

7. "Wahhabi" wasn't mentioned in the German video.

Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:32 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't know where the OP got that. Jabhat al-Nusra ......... that's what I heard.

Do you know what the Jabhat al-Akrad is?

Maybe you should check that out and things might become clearer for you.

It's perfectly clear to me why Turkey is/was allowing this.

[happyslug]

9. You do NOT attack your oil supply.

I gave the example of Hitler attacking his fuel supply and that lead to his defeat. That is well known to anyone who has studies WWII (and most generals have). Thus the fact IRAN supplies Turkey its Natural gas AND its oil is the most important factor. Iran will tolerate so much of opposition, but if Turkey's action truly threaten Syria, Iran has the Oil weapon at its disposal. . If Russia backs Iran, Turkey has to submit, for Russia is the only alternative for Turkey for Iranian Oil.

Thus, I do NOT see Turkey doing anything but the most facial of support for anyone in Syria. Turkey may supply some weapons, some other aid, but no where near enough to do any real harm to Assad. That way Turkey can tell the Rebels we are supporting you, so if the Rebels do win Turkey has the ins with them. At the same time Turkey can tell Assad, we are NOT giving them more then token weapons and that is for domestic political purposes NOT any serious action against you.

The Greeks are also a factor, for action against Turkey is always popular in Greece. The Kurds are also a problem for the Turks.

As to Jabhat al-Nusra, from what I have read it is an off shoot of Al Queda. Remember al Queda is NOT a centralized command center, but a funding source for independent fighters. Al Queda operates like a bank, that people can approach and ask for funding for a plan they themselves have come up with, like a business man going to a bank asking to borrow money so he can start a business. Jabhat al-Nusra has used al Queda for funding in the past and appears to be a major recipient of such funding to this day. In turn al Queda seems to get money from rich Saudis who sends the money to al Queda (Whose money is going to al Queda is unclear, for the House of Saud makes no serious effort to track them down).

Thus Jabhat al-Nusra is both related to al Qurda and independent of it, just like a borrower from a Bank, has to pay back the money he has borrowed from the bank, but otherwise independent of the Bank.

In simple terms Jabhat al-Nusra is a terrorist group, whose funding source is unclear (and may be taking money from Turkey, with the understanding they do NOT attack Turkey, but can attack Syrians). It is clearly getting money from al Queda, but as to attacks on Syria, al Queda and Turkey are NOT that far apart.

On the other hand Turkey has good reasons NOT to appear to fund this group to much (or to fund them to undermined the rest of the opposition, both would appease the Iranians who control the energy flow into Turkey).

[rdharma]

10. Oh brother!

Do you know who Jabhat al-Akrad is? Something tells me you don't.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/08/united-states-condemns-attacks-syrian-kurds.html

[happyslug]

12. And you are ignoring my argument about OIL

Turkey will NOT do anything that threatens its source of oil and right now that source is IRAN. The main reason the US often looks like it is in bed with Saudi Arabia, is while Saudi Arabia does NOT supply that much oil directly to the US, it was the Major "Swing producer" of oil from 1973 till today (at least according in Saudi Arabia, others question Saudi Arabia's ability to produce more oil then it is today, but so far Saudi Arabia has kept up production with demand, assisted by what the oil people call "Tight Oil" (and every one else calls Shale Oil) in the US.

World wide oil supplies are tight, and have been tight since 2005 (Some people say 2001 when oil started it slow but stead increase in price till it reached its highest price since WWI. in constant dollars, in 2008). Supply barely keeps up with demand (and the reason gasoline prices are so high, is to reduce demand so supply can meet demand). The recent increase in US Oil production is NOT expected to last past 2020 (It will peak around 2017 the is expected to drop drastically, 2020 Domestic US production is expected to be about what 2005 US domestic oil production was).

The North Sea is almost depleted, Russian oil production has gone into decline (Through it is expected to be a slow but steady decline, unlike the North Sea that saw a fairly rapid decline, today the UK is an net oil importer). Alaska's North Slope is in decline, and the ANWR oil is only expected to ease that reduction NOT reverse it (ANWR, even if it is all oil, is no where near the oil that was in the North Slope).

Side note: If oil ever goes below about 20,000 feet, it is converted by the heat of the earth to Natural Gas. We could drill down to 20,000 feet in 1938. When you hear of wells going down 100,000 feet or more, those are Natural Gas wells NOT oil wells. The North Slope of Alaska NEVER had a Glacier on it. The North American Glaciers was centered on Labrador and spread North, South and West. The Glacier does NOT seem to have reached ANWR (and did not reach the North Slope of Alaska) but it is possible do to the weight of the North American Glacier at the height of the Ice Age, that ANWR fell below 20,000 feet and was converted to Natural Gas. It has rebound since that time period, but the real question how far did it go? The reason for the drop in depth was do to the rest of what is now Canada sunk under the pressure of a mile or more of ice on top of Canada. This will be only determined if and when we drill into ANWR, but it is still the best single source of Oil in North America over the next 20 years. "Tight Oil" is the big craze right now, but those wells only last about 18 months before they go into terminal decline (and are dry, on the average of 36 months). Thus "Tight oil" is a good source of oil today, but it is NOT expected to last much beyond 2020. I do not know what the situation would be if the US had NOT drop 10% of its oil usage since 2005. Prior to 2008 we NEVER had a year (including WWII) when oil consumption went down. 2008 was the first year, and oil consumption has been declining in the US ever since. This should have drop the price more then it has, but that just shows you how tight the market for oil is today.

I bring this up, for oil supply is tight right now (thus the high price for gasoline) and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. Thus no one wants to risk they own oil supply, that goes for the US as while as Turkey.

From a British site using pence per liter:

http://www.significancemagazine.org/SpringboardWebApp/userfiles/sig/image/AbdelUpload/Petrol%20graph%202.bmp

http://www.significancemagazine.org/details/webexclusive/1397283/The-historical-price-of-petrol--how-bad-do-we-have-it.html

From an American Site, using cents per gallon:

?00cfb7

http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2012/02/27/how-high-have-gas-prices-risen-over-the-years/

This is the driving force behind what Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the US do, NOT the dogma of who doing the actual fighting. Once you accept that, then what Turkey is doing makes sense. Turkey will go through the motions of fighting the Kurds (and anyone else), but NOT at the expense of its oil supply. That is Iran's biggest weapon and the Turks know it. Thus I see some support for these rebels from Turkey, but not much.

[rdharma]

8. Do you check stuff out before you post it?

"Wahabbi"? Did you mean Jabhat al-Nusra?

Get your shit straight, bro'!

[Jesus Malverde]

11. Straight from the yt title, my friend...nt

[rdharma]

13. Problem is..... some YT posters label stuff incorrectly for dramatic effect. nt

Nothing in that German report that matches the title.