UN Syria Report Confirms Chemical Weapons Used, Culprit Still Not Known

[Junkdrawer]

[The Magistrate]

1. The Syrian Government's Military Arm, Sir

Would certainly lose a civil suit, and likely be convicted of a criminal charge, on the basis of evidence already known to the public.

[Junkdrawer]

3. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments..

and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

I think you would be excluded from any jury.

[The Magistrate]

4. Same Old Story, Same Old Song And Dance, Sir

It is all 'false flag' to you, that is the lens through which you view events.

[Junkdrawer]

8. I was following the Syrian civil war somewhat closely prior to the attack...

There was much rending of garments because Assad seemed to be winning and President Obama was reluctant to order a No-Fly Zone.

Then, the DAY UN inspectors arrived, the biggest CW attack of the conflict occurs.

Have these FACTS been informing my opinions? Guilty as charged.

Do I know for certain who did this? Hell, no.

Would I like all the evidence made public or AT LEAST available to Congress? Yes.

[The Magistrate]

10. Many People Were, Sir: That Hardly Privileges Your Pre-Conceptions

And certainly does not impeach the trajectory evidence in the U.N. report.

[Junkdrawer]

12. impeach the trajectory evidence in the U.N. report.? Page 21 of the pdf:

....

The time necessary to conduct a detailed survey of both locations as well as take samples was very limited. The sites have been well travelled by other individuals both before and during the investigation. Fragments and other possible evidence have clearly been handled/moved prior to the arrival of the investigation team.

....

http://www.un.org/disarmament/content/slideshow/Secretary_General_Report_of_CW_Investigation.pdf

[The Magistrate]

14. You Need to Read The Rest Of it, Sir

Trajectory conclusions were calculated from point of impact, and damage done to adjacent strictures, providing a line from which a bearing could be calculated.

The report is quite clear on its limitations, and emphatically does not claim that no reliable conclusions could be drawn from the sites examined.

You are grasping at straws to preserve your pre-conception that all this is a dark plot against Assad....

[Junkdrawer]

15. Huh? evidence was clearly moved, the crime scene compromised....

but reliable conclusions can still be drawn?

I'm grasping at straws?

[The Magistrate]

16. Again, Sir: Read The Entire Report

You are deliberately distorting by de-contexualized quotation, which anyone who has read through the entire report will see immediately.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/168606795/U-N-Report-on-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria

Pay special attention to Appendix 5.

[azurnoir]

19. Appendix 5 is where that snip came from

now as to trajectory yes it is possible that the ground to ground missiles carrying the Sarin came from the same general direction as where we're told Assad's troops where, however is there proof positive that there were absolutely no 'Rebels in that area either?

The fact remains that no matter how much one wishes to blame Assad, there is not irrefutable proof of that.

Moreover as to mocking claims that "it's all a dark plot against Assad" IMO not so much against Assad however the Rebels® very very much want more Western/Saudi supplied arms if not out right intervention, this would go towards giving them just that

It seems that bi-polarized Western thinking or good guys vs bad guys simply does not apply here, there are no good guys in this conflict, neither side not Assad, not the Rebels® are worthy of our support

[The Magistrate]

20. I Know Where He Snipped It From, Ma'am

And having read the entire item several times know how grotesquely he over-weights it.

I disagree strongly with your view of the weight of the evidence regarding origin of the rounds this report provides.

There is no ground whatever save wishful thinking for 'rebels did it --- false flag' claims at this point: it is a flat fact that Syrian government forces launched poison gas into several neighborhoods of metropolitan Damascus last month.

[Junkdrawer]

21. It is a flat fact. By fiat.

Resistance is futile.

Oh sure, the UN report precedes each conclusion with:

Limitations:
The time necessary to conduct a detailed survey of both locations as well as take samples was
very limited. The sites have been well traveled by other individuals both before and during
the investigation. Fragments and other possible evidence have clearly been handled/moved
prior to the arrival of the investigation team.

And:

Limitations:
As with other sites, the locations have been well traveled by other individuals prior to the
arrival of the Mission. Time spent on the sites was well used but limited.
During the time spent at these locations, individuals arrived carrying other suspected
munitions indicating that such potential evidence is being moved and possibly manipulated.

But clearly the only fair reading involves ignoring such disclaimers and focusing on the evidence.

[The Magistrate]

22. By Preponderance Of Evidence, Sir, At The Very Least

And past any reasonable doubt, in my view.

Neither of the tit-bits you have extracted demonstrates manipulation for deception. One admits that is a possibility, but opens other possible explanations as well. Persons in possession of fragments may well have thought they were performing a service by bringing them to investigators, who otherwise would miss them, for example. That something was moved or disturbed hardly suffices to demonstrate malicious intent to deceive, as there are any number of reasons a scene of impact might have been disturbed over a period of several days, particularly a scene where persons dead or poisoned had had to be removed.

The investigators quite properly noted these things, and then went on to provide quite detailed accounts of what they found, and what conclusions could be reasonably drawn from what they found. Had the noted limitations been what you imagine them to be, they would have simply said we can draw no useful conclusion owing to likely tampering. But that is not what they did....

[Junkdrawer]

23. Well, unlike the Judge Parkers that seem to swarm here, I'm still not ready to hang the accused....

Your mileage may vary.

Good day sir.

[The Magistrate]

24. Just Everyone Else, Sir: Again, Same Old Story, Same Old Song And Dance

"It's all lies! Lies against my boys!"

[azurnoir]

25. with all due respect Sir

flat fact is in reality your opinion, and yes I know what we've been being fed here since this happened, starting with there were no UN inspectors in Syria at the time, something the report proves untrue, the attack was on 8/21, the inspectors arrived on 8/18 more over using Occam's Razor let's ask who had more to gain here by doing this Assad or the Rebels? And I know we've been told that our Western minds can not understand the devious workings of the Arab mind-they simply don't 'think' like us or some such, however I'll entertain your opinion, saying it was Assad now what? Do we just allow him to 'give-up' his CW and call it a day? Or is this UN report going to used as a call for more action?

IMO the zaftig Frau has uttered her last note yet on this one

[The Magistrate]

26. She Has Not Only Uttered Her Last Note, Ma'am, She Is Home Kicking Back With Her Stories And A Pal

At least, that is, so far as pretending it is reasonable to cry up 'rebels did it --- false flag' claims, and to deny Syrian government forces launched poison gas into several neighborhoods of metropolitan Damascus. Details of command and control, at what level a decision to do this was made, whether government militia or regulars, or possibly even Hezbollah militia, worked the launchers, remain open, certainly.

In my personal view, the only real U.S. interest here is that whichever side emerges victorious from this is not in possession of military grade nerve gas in any quantity. It certainly seems possible diplomatic efforts underway at present can secure this. That would be the best possible outcome.

[azurnoir]

27. My comment on who has not yet sung the last note

related only to what actions the US will or will not take, nothing else

[The Magistrate]

28. And My Focus, Ma'am, Is On The Insupportability Of 'Rebels Did It --- False Flag' Claims

Which are demolished by the U.N. report.

[azurnoir]

29. Then saying that Assad did order the chemical attack

in your opinion should merely giving up his CW stock be enough, what else should happen, how will the US ascertain that all of Assad's chemical weapons are in international hands and lastly exactly who is the international community in this case, exactly who is authorized to receive and stockpile these weapons or who does the US accept as the legitimate arbitrator in this?

[The Magistrate]

30. I Have Said Only, Ma'am, That Syrian Government Forces Launched The Gas

I consider the proper aim to be removing military grade nerve gas from the scene in Syria.

How this is to be done seems to be the subject of negotiations, in which the United States, and Russia, Assad's patron, are the chief participants. I will reserve judgement on whether a good deal has been struck till I know something of its substance. A resolution passed by the Security Council will be sufficient to define the will of the international community, at least as a matter of international obligation.

[Warpy]

5. However, the attacks seem to have surprised Assad's inner circle

I still think the Turks need to ask the defense minister who skedaddled over the border a few days after the attacks some really pointed questions.

That's where I detect the smell originating.

[The Magistrate]

7. He Was Out Of Office Two Years Ago, Sir

Unlikely he could move so much as a sentry in the weeks before he defected.

[Warpy]

11. You seem to forget this is an inter tribal and sectarian war at heart

The rules by which the US military plays don't apply here.

[The Magistrate]

13. It Never Leaves My Mind, Sir: That Is What Gives The Thing Its Peculiar Edge

But it does not supply me with any reason to assign significant probability to the proposition this man contrived to have a number of sarin rounds launched from Syrian government positions into several neighborhoods in metropolitan Damascus shortly before he decamped to Turkey.

[sharp_stick]

2. The UN

is not allowed to place blame in these reports but you'd have to be pretty dense to not be able to read between the lines with all the information they placed there.

[Sand Wind]

6. +1000 nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. Occam's razor...

[snappyturtle]

17. Lest we forget that back in May it was reported that the

rebels had used CW. In my link, long article with updates
sprinkled throughout, Bradblog reported that Reuters
claimed from eye witnesses that it was the rebels, not the
Assad regime that used the CW.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9995

UPDATE 5/6/2013 12:42pm PT: Despite the U.N. commission's call for caution in light of last night's report, investigator Carla Del Ponte --- "a former Swiss attorney general who also served as prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia" --- is standing by her initial assertions today, according to this Reuter's update:

In comments posted in English on Monday, she repeated the assertion, saying that witness testimony made it appear that some chemical wepaons had been used.

"What appears to our investigation is that it was used by the opponents, by the rebels," she said. "We have no indication at all that the Syrian government has used chemical weapons."

[The Magistrate]

18. Does Not Seem, Ma'am, To Have Carried Into Their Report

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoISyria/A-HRC-23-58_en.pdf

Page 21 deals with illegal Weapons:

D. Illegal Weapons
136. As the conflict escalates, the potential for use of chemical weapons is of deepening
concern. Chemical weapons include toxic chemicals, munitions, devices and related
equipment as defined in the 1997 Convention on the Prohibition of the Development,
Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and Their Destruction. Also
applicable is the 1925 Geneva Protocol which Syria has ratified.e
The use of chemical
weapons is prohibited in all circumstances under customary international humanitarian law
and is a war crime under the Rome Statute.


137. The Government has in its possession a number of chemical weapons. The dangers
extend beyond the use of the weapons by the Government itself to the control of such
weapons in the event of either fractured command or of any of the affiliated forces gaining
access.


138. It is possible that anti-Government armed groups may access and use chemical
weapons. This includes nerve agents, though there is no compelling evidence that these
groups possess such weapons or their requisite delivery systems.


139. Allegations have been received concerning the use of chemical weapons by both
parties. The majority concern their use by Government forces. In four attacks – on Khan
Al-Asal, Aleppo, 19 March; Uteibah, Damascus, 19 March; Sheikh Maqsood
neighbourhood, Aleppo, 13 April; and Saraqib, Idlib, 29 April – there are reasonable
grounds to believe that limited quantities of toxic chemicals were used. It has not been
possible, on the evidence available, to determine the precise chemical agents used, their
delivery systems or the perpetrator. Other incidents also remain under investigation.


140. Conclusive findings – particularly in the absence of a large-scale attack – may be
reached only after testing samples taken directly from victims or the site of the alleged
attack. It is, therefore, of utmost importance that the Panel of Experts, led by Professor
Sellström and assembled under the Secretary General's Mechanism for Investigation of
Alleged Use of Chemical and Biological Weapons, is granted full access to Syria.