Sex Object BS

[redqueen]

to sea for the link

[indie9197]

1. Am confused by your title

Agree or disagree?

[redqueen]

8. That's the title of the video...

I agree with her.

[indie9197]

27. Oh, me too. Nicely explained.

A good lesson in Objectism 101 for the guys that enjoyed the Carls Jr ad from yesterday.
As a 52 yo man, I am very aware of it and don't like it. I have two daughters, 17 and 22, that have been constantly bombarded by that crap in advertising. At least they never wanted to be cheerleaders, models, or beauty queens.

[AtheistCrusader]

2. "Kind of awkward"

What do you mean, this looks totally normal to me...



Edit: HAHAHAHAAA



Yep, that captures the dichotomy right there.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

4. LOLOL!!!!! eggzackly

[redqueen]

9. There have been so many comparisons like this recently.

I think it's really helped to raise awareness.

Thanks for posting these.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. It has.

Long ago, I stopped buying magazines that did this. Stuff like HotVW's. I always have a Volkswagen or two kicking around, just a hobby, something I do. But I stopped getting the mag because I was tired of the placement of females as hood ornaments. It bothered me on some level.

About a decade ago, they stopped doing it in the articles, but the advertisers keep doubling down on it. So even after the adjustment in article decoration strategy, I didn't start buying more. IN fact, I don't subscribe to ANY magazines, so pervasive is this issue.


But I have to say, even being aware of it, even purposely AVOIDING it for much of my life, I am NOT comfortable with that motorcycle ad comparison above. Meaning, I'm not comfortable with my reaction to it. Without the contrasting men, the other photos just fade to background noise I can ignore. But add in the men, or see the photos of the men by themselves, and it's mentally jarring, and cannot be relegated to background noise.

Meaning, that my mind is, on some level, after so many years of being exposed to this shit, wired to accept it.

That really bothers me. This is not a form of advertising I would choose to see in any context. But it's become 'nothing' to me, over time, when it involves just the stereotypical scantily clad ladies draped over products. Like I don't see it.


How is this different from a traumatic brain injury, wherein you can no longer process some forms of stimuli properly? When two pieces of data, subtly different in a meaningless way, cannot be processed the same way by my brain, have I not been harmed? How to repair such imbalance in processing?

The motorcycle spread was both funny, and upsetting to me, at the same time. The two images should be equally jarring and they simply aren't. One doesn't register on some level with my mind.

[redqueen]

20. Thank you for spelling it out.

When we talk about indoctrination, it really is a wiring, or programming, of our thought processes. Not by some evil overlord with a nefarious end-goal, but just bad habits -- rooted in an oppressive system -- that over time have become so routinely reinforced that as you said, it's just background noise.

At least until you become consciously aware of it.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. It makes me wonder, what else can I no longer process.

[wryter2000]

26. Believe it or not Men's Journal is very good in its depiction of women

I started looking into my husband's copies after he died. Women are overwhelmingly portrayed as strong and equal to the men in the pictures, even the ads. They're mostly young and attractive, but no more so than the men. Occasionally, an "off" ad appears, but they're very rare.

The men at that magazine "get it."

[blackspade]

34. Well stated.

Thanks, you articulated what I wanted to say.

[thucythucy]

49. Excellent post.

I really like how you walk us through this. Essentially you're doing in prose what the video did--explain how messed up objectification of women is, and how it's become so commonplace as to seem 'normal.'.

Thanks.

[Half-Century Man]

13. Not sexy

Red motorcycles aren't sexy, black or green only.



Well maybe... plaid

[AtheistCrusader]

14. I've never actually felt the urge to fuck any of my motorcycles...

I know that's not what you said, but that's what I heard. It's the non-sequitur of attributing 'sexiness' in some fashion, to an object. I've never understood it.

[Half-Century Man]

16. Well, I certainly hope that wasn't some weird Freudian slip of some kind on my part.

I meant to refer as though the bike was a sexy accessory for the model.

Thank you, this will haunt me for a couple hours.

I'm glad I didn't do the joke about the males all wearing the same shoes (as opposed to the same girl wearing 3 different pair). G*d knows what might have been inferred.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. I like to think of these threads as a self-discovery process.

[BelgianMadCow]

48. which is the same as what is happening to Wrecking Ball

with several parodies outlining how silly it is. The "sex sells" narrative is being pierced, here and there.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

3. I think this is the BEST LESSON I've ever seen on how women are viewed and what contributes to it...

and how detrimental it is to women. And she explains in easy to understand language. This is a real public service message

I've been yelling these ideas for years!!! I "got it" when I was 5!!! Not as fully thought out and articulated as she explains, obviously, but I "grokked" all the artifacts of objectification way back then. Because it FELT so INSULTING.

But I was also blind to it too, and--as she explains--I totally bought into the idea that I am valueless apart from how sexy I am!! After all, if you're constantly being insulted, you want some power, (acceptance), right? If you only see one way to get there……….

You can imagine how well that plays out in a human being's life, once you don't look like what the market wants for a sex object!!! It takes some readjusting to re-imagine your worth!

She diagrams the differences in "normal" (i.e. normalized) thinking about men as compared to normalized thinking about women so clearly.

Fantastic job!!!



PS. I had to stop in the middle of the vid because I had to reply, right that moment! It's that powerful! And yes, OF course, objectifying women as sexual things has everything to do with the epidemics of sexualized violence against us. (not to mention shitty laws and shitty attitudes, like not taking us seriously when we say something serious.)

[redqueen]

11. This right here.

And yes, OF course, objectifying women as sexual things has everything to do with the epidemics of sexualized violence against us. (not to mention shitty laws and shitty attitudes, like not taking us seriously when we say something serious.)

This is what too many don't get, this connection between the perception of women as (sex) objects and violence against women.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

17. yes. it's <<depersonalization>>

Like what military training does to troops in training....teach them to view t"he others" as things. Rag heads and other inhuman horrible names. Cartoonish images.

Not people.

Because depersonalizing makes it easier for a soldier to kill the enemy.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

5. Does DU have a policy about sexist and sexually objectifying ads?

[AtheistCrusader]

6. That's a good question for Ask the Adminsf forum.

I think this question has been answered, along the lines of 'we don't control that' but worth asking/raising the issue.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. My guess is policy is "we make more money than from a filtered ad stream". nt

[redqueen]

12. AFAIK there is no official policy, no.

Ads like that are so common most probably don't even notice them as being in any way objectionable.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

19. kind of like back in the 50's, insulting, depersonalizing imagery of blacks

Was so common that most didn't notice them as objectionable!

[marions ghost]

44. I always notice them

and try to leave websites that show them as fast as possible.

They are really offensive. I don't want to try to read some article with T&A in my face.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. That's the result of the kind of things you have searched for lately....

Lately, mine have had antique hardware.



I guess it's a case of "whatever pushes your buttons".

[Bernardo de La Paz]

42. Actually not. I disable cookies on Google. Only a few places like DU get cookies from me.

It's more like the default ads for DU.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. So it's dafault of default.

[fasttense]

37. And that's NOT the worst of it.

I was on DU about 2 weeks ago and (aside from the new vacuum cleaner ads which I was goggling before I came to DU) There were these very obnoxious moving animated women with close ups of their breasts, asses and pubic area. They were cartoons but some of the most pornographic cartoons I've seen. I finally logged off DU because I found their ads so offensive. DU really has some very objectifying pornographic ads.

I went to another site, that still had those vacuums, but not the naked cartoons just because of the awful ads on DU.

[jakeXT]

7. This subject/object thing is confusing

So, what do I mean when I say that sexual objectification is simply the most visible part of objectification? Well, let's start by differentiating between subject status and object status. While a subject is active, with agency, an object is passive, being acted upon. This dichotomy is reflected in our grammar; when we hear, "Fiona stroked the cat," we recognize that 'Fiona' has subject status, while 'the cat' has object status. Now in an ideal world, we would find ourselves randomly cast as either subject or object at different times, depending on the situation, with no problems. However, in society's dominant narrative, subject and object status is heavily gendered, with men granted subject status the vast majority of the time, and women severely objectified.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/joy-goh-mah/objectification-women-sexy-pictures_b_3403251.html

[BlancheSplanchnik]

18. ok....what specifically confused you?

Let's talk. Talking is good.

[jakeXT]

23. Am I an object when I'm doing nothing and I'm acted upon ? I got the feeling from the video that

people can't be objects. The article I linked to is talking about the ideal world where everybody can be either subject or object. But in reality only men are portrayed as subjects most of the time.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

25. ummm...i'm not exactly sure i understand where you're stuck...

But I'll try....

If you're minding your own business and someone imposes themself on you...then you are being treated like an object.

Did that answer your question?

[jakeXT]

28. If we get rid of the word "impose" and I encourage somebody to do something to me than I'm an actor.

I'm no longer an object, despite of somebody doing something to me, because I like it ?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

29. I'm not sure i get what you mean here.

Can you explain a little more? Help me understand you correctly.

[jakeXT]

30. Usually I would think (object = passive) and (subject = active)

Being passive would suggest oneself is an object, because something is done to you. But by giving consent, which is an active act you become an actor and a subject, despite being passive physically.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

32. oh …ok. I think I get what you're talking about...

you're talking about any given incident between two people.

That's assuming the "acting" party has asked in the first place, of course.

OK, if it's between two individuals, the one who gives consent to the "acting" party is participating. But just the fact of participation and communication on both parts makes this something other than subject acting on or "using" an object.



That scenario is a little different from what we're talking about in the OP.

In the OP, we're talking about a cultural mindset. Much more than an encounter between two individuals who, we assume for the purposes of your example, are communicating on an equal basis.

A cultural mindset doesn't ask anyone if they consent to the attitudes or culture-driven actions taken toward them. Everyone in that culture is living it and is affected by it.

Some people--hopefully more than fewer-- become aware at some point of the social patterns they live in.

[cinnabonbon]

22. Such an excellent video

Clear explanations, short messages, she even went into how objectification leads to darker things.

I knew there was a reason I was following her on youtube.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. I Like Lacy

[panfluteman]

33. Reverse Objectification!

You naturally hear a lot about women being sex objects for men, and I suppose that the evidence for this is indisputable. Just look at the motorcycle pictures above! But I also feel strongly that many women see men as success objects. At its lowest common denominator, a marriage or long term relationship is nothing more than a barter of a sex object for a success object. Neither gender is immune from objectifying and using the other.

[blackspade]

36. I think you are reaching on that example.

Maybe there is an example that would correlate, but I'll be damned if I can think of a good one.
Maybe one of our female posters can come up with a way that women objectify men.
Even if they did, it would not be a socialized cultural phenomena because, as this woman in the OP stated, men have historically controlled the cultural narrative about gender.

I honestly think that your example is a cultural narrative, among others created by men, that has developed in modernity to justify the objectification of women. 'Gold-digging' does not equate to rape culture.

[panfluteman]

40. Just Being Realistic

I don't think I'm over-reaching, I think I'm just being realistic. You can argue about who has the upper hand, and there is a very good case for men having that position. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility that both genders can find ways to exploit and objectify individuals of the other gender for their own ends. I think that the whole gold digging / success object thing, although it may have been used as you suggested, as a kind of rebound or reactionary justification for their own objectification and exploitation of women, goes way beyond that, and actually occurs on a large scale. You just have to open your eyes and look clearly and realistically at what actually goes on in many (but not all, thank God!) cases. People of both genders are infinitely clever and resourceful, and can find a way, under the right circumstances in a relationship, to exploit and objectify the other for their own ends. I feel that real life is much more diverse and complex than those with ideological biases towards the whole gender thing are willing to acknowledge or accept. And neither am I using my observations to justify rape culture. I'm just trying to be empirical and realistic in my observations and the conclusions that I draw from them.

[chervilant]

41. If you are honestly

"trying to be empirical and realistic in my observations and the conclusions that I draw from them," then you will acknowledge that women are most often objectified in our media and in patriarchal societies. You might want to watch "The Bro Code." That documentary alone can help you see the gender specificity in sexual objectification.

[geek tragedy]

38. smh. nt

[hunter]

39. I'm glad I don't live in your world...

[grahamhgreen]

45. Why is she wearing bright red lipstick?

[cinnabonbon]

46. I just posted about something similar in HOF.

I’ve got my own anecdotes, and one thing I’d point out is that most of the women I know who wear makeup? Don’t do it for guys. They do it because they like how it looks and it makes them feel powerful. It’s like social war paint.

(from http://katsudon.net/?p=2727)

[redqueen]

47. Because she likes how it looks. nt