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How Wolves Change Rivers (Original Post) Major Nikon Feb 2014 OP
Interesting hobbit709 Feb 2014 #1
My favorite memories of the Lolo wilderness of Idaho/Montana Cleita Feb 2014 #2
Awesome! ffr Feb 2014 #3
When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe. hunter Feb 2014 #4
Darn! that's inconvenient! liberalla Feb 2014 #19
Aldo Leopold said that if a land mechanism is good, then so are each of its parts truebluegreen Feb 2014 #5
Wow, that is really interesting and important Tumbulu Feb 2014 #6
K&R...Thanks for posting. red dog 1 Feb 2014 #7
There is probably some need for control Major Nikon Feb 2014 #8
Some of the 2naSalit Feb 2014 #14
Need for control would be generations away. There is still a lot of habitat that they could expand rwsanders Feb 2014 #17
This was amazingly beautiful and filled me with hope. It made my kitties japple Feb 2014 #9
Yeah, my dog very slowly walked in to the room when the video started. Nature knows. tecelote Feb 2014 #10
My fifteen-year-old, rather frail kitty was sleeping on my shoulder as I read DU. 1monster Feb 2014 #21
Love the wolves of Yellowstone Esse Quam Videri Feb 2014 #11
This is a video demonstration of Aldo Leopold's essay... love_katz Feb 2014 #12
Published in 1949 and a good read Major Nikon Feb 2014 #13
Actually 2naSalit Feb 2014 #15
Elk and moose are considered deer. reusrename Feb 2014 #18
Yes 2naSalit Feb 2014 #23
I love his writing. love_katz Feb 2014 #16
Wonderful! Thank you for posting this. 1monster Feb 2014 #20
k&r thanks for posting. nm rhett o rick Feb 2014 #22
Interesting. progressoid Feb 2014 #24
That could have been the prequel Major Nikon Feb 2014 #25
pack-hunting predators influence the herding behavior of herbivores, which affects the water cycle. Kali Feb 2014 #26

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
2. My favorite memories of the Lolo wilderness of Idaho/Montana
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 03:35 PM
Feb 2014

and of Yellowstone was falling asleep to the songs sang by the wolves when they were nearby. It's pretty magical.

ffr

(22,671 posts)
3. Awesome!
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 03:45 PM
Feb 2014

Awesome!

Awesome!

And what else was missing in great numbers from this eco-system, well it is a national park: man. Everything else belongs there and are natural.

hunter

(38,326 posts)
4. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 04:32 PM
Feb 2014

-- John Muir, My First Summer in the Sierra, 1911




liberalla

(9,260 posts)
19. Darn! that's inconvenient!
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 09:27 AM
Feb 2014

... as if we would know better...
.
.
.
.
.

Why do we mess with nature?

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
5. Aldo Leopold said that if a land mechanism is good, then so are each of its parts
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 05:15 PM
Feb 2014

whether we understand it or not. When we killed all the wolves, we inherited their job--and did it poorly.

red dog 1

(27,847 posts)
7. K&R...Thanks for posting.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 05:57 PM
Feb 2014

The primary wolf killers in the USA are the Federal Wildlife Services, a branch of the USDA.

They use federal sharp-shooters to kill the wolves from USDA helicopters, in National Parks, at taxpayer expense, in order to placate hunters and ranchers.


To sign a petition to U.S. Department of the Interior Secretary Sally Jewell
"To End The Wanton Killing Of Wolves And Save Them From Extinction"
http://www.change.org/petitions/save-the-wolves-4/

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
8. There is probably some need for control
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 06:09 PM
Feb 2014

With a virtual endless supply of food for the wolves, it's probably not that great to let their population expand too rapidly, but as far as the hunter's and ranchers concerns go, I could care less. Wolves are a native species. Cows are not. It's not a good idea for the wolves to prey on livestock, but the ranchers need to figure out what their ancestors did in order to deter wolves rather than shooting them like developing blood lines of guard dogs specifically bred for the job.

2naSalit

(86,775 posts)
14. Some of the
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 11:00 PM
Feb 2014

great misinformation tactics and emotional triggers used to continue the wanton killing of wolves on the landscape are the lies about wolves breeding without limit. And that they will eat all their prey only to move on and start eating children waiting at a bus stop in the dark. (Seriously, this is common parlance of legislators, senators and Congress people in Idaho, Wyoming and other states where the hysteria of wolves is rampant.

The truth is that wolves actually regulate their numbers without our help.

1) Wolves establish a "range" and generally stay within the boundaries of that range unless a catastrophe like a massive wild fire or flood that removes all their food or humans usurp their habitat.

2) Wolves reproduce ONCE/YEAR and in some years not at all if the prey numbers don't fall within the number needed to sustain the increased number. When wolves were returned to YNP they bred in large numbers due to the overwhelming number of elk (their primary diet though some will successfully thrive on Bison as the Molly's pack did in Pelican Valley and one pack was reported to have two females bear litters in one year).

3) Wolves don't live very long in the wild, there have been a few cases of long lived individuals but it's not common. The average lifespan of a wild wolf is 4-6 years.

4) Wolves will reject individuals who will wander off to establish their own pack IF they make it through the ranges of other wolf packs and/or IF they actually find a breeding mate.

5) Wolves will kill other wolves for a variety of reasons like intrusion of range boundaries or some other infraction that we humans can't fathom.

They regulate naturally and have familial connectivity, when the alpha pair are killed off, the sub-adults lack the training for how to hunt, raise young, stay away from dangerous other species like humans... they are very curious beings.

Also, they don't breed with relatives, a breeding pair generally come from unrelated packs, genetic integrity is important. The only place where it is known to not be the case is Isle Royale in the Great Lakes where there is little opportunity to get to the mainland, and those wolves eat moose because that's what's there. Most predators are opportunists of a sort.

Good little video, though. All of the points made in it have been documented and peer reviewed and repeated over the last twenty years, some facts for longer than that.

rwsanders

(2,606 posts)
17. Need for control would be generations away. There is still a lot of habitat that they could expand
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 11:34 PM
Feb 2014

to.
The better control would be to start moving ranchers from these areas.

japple

(9,839 posts)
9. This was amazingly beautiful and filled me with hope. It made my kitties
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 06:55 PM
Feb 2014

WAKE UP all wide-eyed. Then they went back to sleep. Thanks for posting. I have shared this with many others today.

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
10. Yeah, my dog very slowly walked in to the room when the video started. Nature knows.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 07:48 PM
Feb 2014

Nature has it's own balance. We need to respect it instead of manipulating it.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
21. My fifteen-year-old, rather frail kitty was sleeping on my shoulder as I read DU.
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 10:59 AM
Feb 2014

When I started playing the video, she stiffened immediately and tensed in a way that told me she was about to head for a serious hiding place. I rubbed her softly and told her it was okay and she went back to sleep...

love_katz

(2,584 posts)
12. This is a video demonstration of Aldo Leopold's essay...
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 10:43 PM
Feb 2014

Thinking Like A Mountain.

This essay can be found in his book, A Sand County Almanac.

This video is a visual proof that Aldo was right.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
13. Published in 1949 and a good read
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 10:56 PM
Feb 2014
I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.

2naSalit

(86,775 posts)
23. Yes
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 12:35 PM
Feb 2014

I know that but for many there is confusion about that so I thought I would mention it. No snark intended.

love_katz

(2,584 posts)
16. I love his writing.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 11:07 PM
Feb 2014

This is exactly what the video is saying.

I wish more people would read "A Sand County Almanac". I first encountered it in high school. It changed me forever.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
25. That could have been the prequel
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 02:14 PM
Feb 2014

But I suspect there wasn't much evidence of how the river appeared prior to the eradication of wolves in Yellowstone valley.

Kali

(55,019 posts)
26. pack-hunting predators influence the herding behavior of herbivores, which affects the water cycle.
Mon Feb 17, 2014, 02:24 PM
Feb 2014

Alan Savory was working on this 30-40 years ago.

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