Ukraine: Defending the Homeland

[MNBrewer]

[rdharma]

1. Oh, great! They're giving the thugs real guns instead of molotovs and baseball bats!

What could possibly go wrong?

[Eko]

2. What kind of person are you

when you call people trying to defend their country against another country "thugs"?

[MNBrewer]

4. What kind? A Kremlin dupe.

that's what kind.

[rdharma]

6. Well, I'm the kind of person who calls RW fascist thugs for what they are.

Why are you supporting these thugs from the Right Sector, Svoboda, etc. "defenders of their country"?

The same thugs..... but with masks off.... and more efficient weaponry.

[Eko]

8. Imagine this happened in America.

and the liberals and conservatives banded together, would you find right wing fascist thugs in the movement? And since you did would you label the whole movement as right wing fascist thugs?

[rdharma]

9. What if frogs had wings?

Would they employ RW thugs to provide muscle for their corporatist/oligarchs' putsch?

......Thinking they'll regain control over these thugs later in some sort of "Night of the Long Knives" operation?

Gee! Where have we seen this scenario before?

[Eko]

10. So if this did indeed happen in America

and I am guessing you are in America, what would you do? Yell "Whoa, stop everything, just let Russia take us over because we have some right wing fascist thugs in our movement!". Or are things more complex than labeling a whole movement as "Thugs"?.

[rdharma]

11. YES! When asked a leading either/or question demanding I chose one of the provided answers.........

I'd answer ....yes!

And I'd also dismiss bizarre hypothetical questions for what they are ...... pure nonsense.

[Eko]

13. So you asking

Why do you support the right wing fascist thugs wasn't a leading question?

[rdharma]

14. You're catching on! It's also a "strawman" question.

But, I thought you liked that kind of thing.

[Eko]

15. Naw,

you are the one that is using logical fallacies and demagoguery.

[rdharma]

16. Pee Wee Herman much?

"I know what you are .........but what am I?"

[Eko]

18. Actually I asked what would you do?

How is that a leading either or question? And you are welcome to point out to me where I used a logical fallacy or demagoguery.

[rdharma]

19. What I would do in a bizarre hypothetical scenario that has nothing to do with the situation......

.... in Ukraine?

Oh, brother!

[Eko]

20. Nothing to do with Ukraine?

Ok, take the same situation in Ukraine and apply it to America, not too hard buddy.

[rdharma]

21. Not too hard?

Bizarre hypotheticals ...... are just that..... bizarre and complete nonsense!

This is a hypothetical scenario that the 2nd Amendment nutjobs would make to argue for their right to keep their beloved gatts.

[Eko]

22. Bizarre hypotheticals?

Well since you call it that it must be a bizarre hypothetical. I guess asking if the same situation were to happen here what would you do may seem bizarre to some, but probably to most people it is pretty simple.

[zeemike]

24. In order to have the same situation here

We would have to have given Texas back to Mexico, and then there to be a revolution in Mexico that over threw the elected government and that made a law that Spanish was to be spoken in Texas and had an arm of the revolution that purposed getting rid of the Gringos...what would the US do?...who would you support?

[Eko]

27. If you were placing us in the position of Russia

your example works. Try placing us in the position of Ukraine.

[zeemike]

29. How could we do that?

there is no superpower that is bigger than we are.
Mexico would have to be the superpower that gave us Texas.

[newthinking]

3. They are getting a "promotion"

They started out using them as common "thugs", now they have a place in the department of defense and national security. And people wonder why half the country is alarmed? I still don't understand why we don't think it is in our interests to put pressure to remove the radicals from the administration? Do the neo-cons identify and value these thugs?

Or maybe the new government is afraid of them

[MNBrewer]

5. Nice Kremlin mouthpiece ya got there.

[rdharma]

7. Why are you supporting the fascist RW thugs?

Just wondering.

[newthinking]

12. Nice try.

I know in this climate of neo-con propaganda, thinking and learning what is going on outside the official line must be slandered.

Aren't you a little bit uncomfortable that you are so heavily supporting a neo-con run operation and right of tea party government (anti-gay, heavily fundamentalist, alligned with neo-nazi groups)

How this all came about:

-International Republican institute and other "NGO"s fomenting false information, supporting radical right wing groups (and lesser right wing of course) and putting Billions of dollars in the effort

Neocons Have Weathered the Storm (and are back in force)
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/14-9

- Kagen's wife (Project for a New American Century) is firmly in the middle of things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

- Alliances made with Neo Nazi groups (likely in return for the cabinet level positions they now have in government)

- The overthrow is firmly on the back of the Neo-Nazi's, who systematically threaten Party of regions officials and their families throughout much of Ukraine with violence, burn down offices, attempt to outlaw opposition parties, escelate the violence at maidan, ignore the agreement, then once the opposition is away from their offices in fear, they take the parliament buildings with the blessing of all.

- New government looks more like a far right "Tea Party" and does not represent the Ukrainian people in general

How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine's power vacuum
http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

[Eko]

17. Makeup of Ukraine's govt.

Vitaly Yarema is the First Vice Prime Minister, second highest office in the land. He is part of the Batkivshchyna party and they are fairly liberal. Of all twenty posts in the current govt, ten are considered right wing, with the other ten liberal and unaffiliated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government

[newthinking]

23. Some reading. Fair.org is a dependable source would you not agree?

Denying the Far-Right Role in the Ukrainian Revolution
http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/

[blockquote {margin:30px 10px 10px 50px;}]"Snyder insists that "the transitional authorities were not from the right," and that the "new government, chosen by parliament…is very similar in its general orientation." This is simply false; Snyder mentions a couple of political figures who are not fascists, but passes over in silence a number of bonafide far-right extremists who have been given powerful positions.

The new deputy prime minister, Oleksandr Sych, is from Svoboda; National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy is a co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda's earlier incarnation; the deputy secretary for National Security is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector. Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky is another Svoboda member, as are the ministers for Agriculture and Ecology (Channel 4, 3/5/14). In short, if the prospect of fascists taking power again in Europe worries you, you should be very worried about Ukraine."


How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine's power vacuum
http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

[blockquote {margin:30px 10px 10px 50px;}]"The man facing down Putin's aggression as secretary of the Ukrainian National Security and Defence Council is Andriy Parubiy. He oversees national security for the nation having previously served as security commandant during the anti-government protests in Kiev.

Parubiy was the founder of the Social National Party of Ukraine, a fascist party styled on Hitler's Nazis, with membership restricted to ethnic Ukrainians.

The Social National Party would go on to become Svoboda, the far-right nationalist party whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok was one of the three most high profile leaders of the Euromaidan protests - negotiating directly with the Yanukovych regime.

Overseeing the armed forces alongside Parubiy as the Deputy Secretary of National Security is Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of the Right Sector - a group of hardline nationalist streetfighters, who previously boasted they were ready for armed struggle to free Ukraine."

[Eko]

28. Not denying the far right role at all.

Just contesting that that is all the movement is.

[zeemike]

25. You don't have to understand the language to see what went on there.

The brown shirts are back but this time dressed in camo.

[rdharma]

26. Brown shirts back ....dressed in camo..... and part of the new government.