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Tobin S.

(10,418 posts)
1. I think he's got it right. I would hope so giving a TED speach and all.
Wed May 7, 2014, 05:19 AM
May 2014

From what I can gather, a statement can be conditional and subjunctive at the same time. An example would be, "If I had the powers of Spiderman, I would be a super hero."

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
2. K&R.
Wed May 7, 2014, 05:29 AM
May 2014

Explains a lot. And by the way, differences in language make a lot of difference in the psychology of the individual or the nation.

The French use the subjunctive and conditional more than we do in my opinion. By that I mean that differentiating between instances in which the subjunctive, conditional or declarative voices are to be used is important in speaking or writing French. That makes a big difference in the way they distinguish possibility from fact. Just my opinion.

French used to be the language of diplomacy. Perhaps that was a good thing. Distinguishing possibility from fact seems to be a big problem for today's politicians especially when dealing with foreign and military policy.

kmlisle

(276 posts)
3. He says in the intro that his intention is not to use grammar to put someone down
Wed May 7, 2014, 09:26 AM
May 2014

Rather it is to illustrate a profound truth.

You can Google the difference between subjunctive and conditional, but you can't really Google Wisdom.

I believe I am being indicative here and think of myself as more subjunctive.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. All languages can express the full range of human concepts
Wed May 7, 2014, 11:07 AM
May 2014

The idea that language forms the framework for thought was fairly common many decades past, however detailed study and analysis have proven that not to be true; it is, in fact, exactly the opposite. All human languages are able to express the full range of human thought and experience.

A quick google search turned up this discussion on the video.
http://www.reddit.com/r/badlinguistics/comments/1h9znt/because_vietnamese_doesnt_have_a_formal/

Let me add that I understand the kinds of observations that led the speaker to his conclusions - I went down that road myself once.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
5. Having lived in several countries, I beg to differ with you.
Wed May 7, 2014, 04:17 PM
May 2014

Language forms so many of our attitudes, prioritizes our values and forms us to a greater extent than we realize. I would suggest that the studies you cite to may be flawed.

The Enlightenment took place among intellectuals in several countries. But in each country in great part thanks to its language, the Enlightenment was very different.

If you compare German society to French society, you notice great differences in temperament, priorities and values. History and geography as well as the accidents of genetics play a role in the development of the contrasting cultures. But so does language. French is historically derived from latin. German from the old germanic languages. That has made a difference in the sounds that the children hear from their first moments on earth, and eventually in the sounds of their music and their environment. English is a combination of various languages especially French and a Germanic language. That this awkward, unpredictable (in terms of sounds and pronunciations) and very inclusive, sort of sop-it-up-it-sounds-like-it-might-be-a-word language controls our communications, but more important the sounds of the human environment in which we live, makes us different from non-English-speaking people.

At this time, I live in a community in which many, many people speak Spanish. Just this past weekend, the Spanish-speakers in our community were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Lots of music, lots of chatter and lots of laughter interspersed with cheers. The melodious sound of the Spanish language expressed in the Mexican culture around me contrasts greatly with the rhythmic, irregular beats of the English language and the music that our language produces.

One language does not express the same feelings or ideas as another. And the proof is the extent to which in our century we borrow just the right word from another language to express a thought that comes from another culture. The Germans are incredibly efficient but they use our word efficient to describe that characteristic because they don't have a word for it. We talk about reason and rationality, but when we use those words, we do not begin to capture the reverence for "reason and rationality" that the French feel when they use the word "raison."

Tran is describing a cultural difference that is expressed in the Vietnamese language. Yes. Language does make a difference.

And by the way, the English language has no equivalent for the word, "macho." We just don't really grasp it even. "Macho" is a strut, a way of being, a way of kissing, a way of saying, "I am a man." We probably wouldn't have allowed that word to grow up in our language even it had been born to us. (I'm a woman so I am not especially defending that word. It's just an example.)

Another example: The first time a German-speaking person addressed me as Frau Doktor (my husband has the PhD.), I laughed and laughed. It sounded so terribly serious. But in German, my husband's position gave me rank and position (not money unfortunately). At least when we were there, women were commonly addressed by their husband's title. Herr/Frau Oberwachmeister, Herr/Frau Diplomkaufman, etc. That makes a huge difference in the life of a community. Especially when it is Herr/Frau Burgermeister -- Mr. AND MRS. (?) Mayor.

Language makes a huge difference. And you can't express all thoughts in all languages. Many things simply cannot be translated.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
6. Having decades of experience in Japanese
Wed May 7, 2014, 04:37 PM
May 2014

And a minor in applied linguistics I have to stand by what I wrote. You make a common mistake when you base your conclusion on the fact that many words don't have a one-for-one precise counterpart in some other language. That doesn't mean the concept the word embodies can't be precisely explained in the other language.

You can determine a lot of cultural traits by the way a people use their language, but the premise of the speaker isn't valid.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
7. There is no adequate English translation for Lebensanschauung.
Wed May 7, 2014, 05:51 PM
May 2014

You can use English words to try to express or explain the meaning, but the German concept and all its associations do not exist in the minds of people who speak English.

Here is an attempt at a translation. Nothing wrong with it, but it does not grasp the concept and its role in German culture.

Lebensanschauung {f}
vision of life
approach to life

http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Lebensanschauung.html

Language is the expression of the life and spirit of the people who speak the language. Think how different our English is from that in, say London. Language and culture are expressions of the unique community of each people and culture.

I have lived in so many places. When I was a teenager I lived a few years in the South of the US. I acquired a Southern accent. My approach to life was influenced by the language that I spoke. The differences between Yankee and Southern speech were not all that great. But for example, the very fact that Southern teenagers back then addressed adults as "Ma'am" and "Sir" changed the kinds of relationships that teenagers had with the adults around them. There is no word that translates "Ma'am" with all its Southern connotations and cultural history to any explanation or meaning in Yankee English.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
9. I"m not going to argue it with you.
Wed May 7, 2014, 06:37 PM
May 2014

The field of linguistics, which has studied the question closely, says all languages can express the full range of human concepts and further, the idea that language forms the framework for thought is simply not correct.

As I wrote in my first post, I've been down the same thought path you (and the OP) are on. I was also wrong and I was wrong following the same reasoning you are using.

If you want to dispute that feel free to go to your local bar, grab a brew and pontificate to your heart's desire. Have one for me while you are there.

erronis

(15,241 posts)
8. I heard this on the radio
Wed May 7, 2014, 06:05 PM
May 2014

And then listened it again on the 'pute. It was part of an excellent TED Radio Hour segment. While I'm not a grammarian, I do think that his overall message was important - different cultures have differing ways of expressing ideas. I certainly understood his father's voice as well as Phuc Tran's. For those that couldn't, try getting off the linguistic purity academic myway.

ancianita

(36,053 posts)
10. He's not. This is exactly the way I taught its logic in my high school English classes.
Wed May 7, 2014, 11:22 PM
May 2014

EXAMPLES -- Tell me which one more likely reflects the conditional or the subjunctive.

If she was at the TED Talk, I didn't see her.

If she were at the TED Talk, I couldn't have seen her.


The breadth of possibility is greater in one of these sentences. That is one of the few angles of thought going on as I was teaching my students that writing is thinking. Thus, the more we examine writing, the more we think about thinking.

icarusxat

(403 posts)
11. What he doesn't say...
Thu May 8, 2014, 12:02 AM
May 2014

is that language reflects the values of a society. In Vietnam it was not about what might be, but what will be.

I had a student get into an argument with me about the German word Geschwistern. I stated that there was no real English equivalent. He said that sibling held the same meaning. When was the last time you were in a church meeting and the pastor said, "My dear siblings...?" Yet, in a German congregation "Meine liebe Geschwistern" is common.

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